Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread Dennis Towne
Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only
took three days to implement.  But it also doesn't work quite right,
and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while
things that are there probably shouldn't be.  The solution to this is
to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language.


Dennis Towne

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread Che

  Hi Dennis,
  Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as a 
programmer.  I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the heavy 
lifting by learning from the web and various books.
  I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with 
tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level.
  But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers 
need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make decent 
products with what we know.
  More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others 
constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to new 
developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that 
sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post.
  So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile 
and enjoy themselves with our toys.

  also, you said:
quote:
I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
 take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
 too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.
 end quote.
  Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were 
talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or not, 
please advise.

  Later,
che


On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only
took three days to implement.  But it also doesn't work quite right,
and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while
things that are there probably shouldn't be.  The solution to this is
to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language.


Dennis Towne

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread shaun everiss

I aggree with you.
Yeah all the scripting languages are probably quite limiting in themselves.
Directly coding stuf is sertainly more powerfull than those.
There are acceptions.
Nvda is python, although saying that several of its libs were made 
with c or c++.

So I don't know its not exactly that small anymore.
At 05:38 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only
took three days to implement.  But it also doesn't work quite right,
and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while
things that are there probably shouldn't be.  The solution to this is
to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language.


Dennis Towne

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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread shaun everiss

I also aggree with that side.
And I never got a degree either.
I tried vb etc, but to be truthfull my languages I did studdy are 
freepascal using the devpascal ide by bloodshed or javascript.
Javascript is real limiting anyway but if there were libs for stuff 
I'd probably be more comfortable to do something in pascal myself.
Its been known for ages in the industry,  that c++ is needed to  go 
beyond playing with our toys and into bigger and better things.

However we are not talking about making huge piles of cash here.
Heck our stuff doesn't even make mainstream.
So our toys as you call it denis are probably toys but its safe to 
say that most of us are probably hobbyists I think its fair to say 
that most of us are not thinking they will get millions of dollars to 
really develop gaming.
Heck Companies may only be 1-2 people at most not sure of stats but 
we are quite small and will probably remain so for a while.

It also depends on what you are used to.
Obviously if you know c++ already then keep using what you know.
If you have jumped in the sharks and are happy there, go ahead and 
continue, the rest of us though are probably little fish.
I am not sure if this is correct but as far as I know tom is the 
first of his kind or close to anyway.

I don't have the stomach to learn programming let alone c++.
Though I have always had a dream that when I eventually did program 
I'd use something by boreland corp.

Its never happened but yeah.
At 06:00 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote:

  Hi Dennis,
  Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced 
as a programmer.  I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of 
the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books.
  I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project 
with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level.
  But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game 
developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, 
and we make decent products with what we know.
  More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and 
others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a 
disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I 
keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced 
once again by this post.
  So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people 
smile and enjoy themselves with our toys.

  also, you said:
quote:
I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
 take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
 too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.
 end quote.
  Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were 
talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or 
not, please advise.

  Later,
che


On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it 

Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread Willem

Hi all.
Dennis, I agree with you completely about vb6.  Che, you are right in 
saying that results are important. Many games were created in vb6 which 
I regularly play and enjoy. The big difference between vb6 and python, 
is that python is still actively being developed and supported where 
Microsoft ended support for vb6 years ago. My advice to new programmers 
would be to investigate viability of the language they choose to use too.


I also regularly play alter eon and it is one of the muds with the least 
bugs and almost no lag at all. Lag may be one of the disadvantages to 
using higher level languages.


The use of vb6 will most probably become a problem later when arm 
becomes popular, Microsoft changes something in windows or the old 
hardware laying around breaks. This is what happened to most dos games, 
though I'm sure the die hearts will still find a way to run the games.  
And as seen in trying to run some old software, emulators will not 
always work.


Never the less, most games out there are written in vb6 and they are fun 
to play. I hope we as a community can find a way to make the games 
playable on newer and different hardware and operating systems as there 
are few enough games out there.

On 7/21/2011 8:00 PM, Che wrote:

  Hi Dennis,
  Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced as 
a programmer.  I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of the 
heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books.
  I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project with 
tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level.
  But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game developers 
need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, and we make 
decent products with what we know.
  More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and others 
constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a disservice to 
new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I keep repeating that 
sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced once again by this post.
  So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people smile 
and enjoy themselves with our toys.

  also, you said:
quote:
I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
 take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
 too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.
 end quote.
  Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you were 
talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel offended or 
not, please advise.

  Later,
che


On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only
took three days to implement.  But it also doesn't work quite right,
and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while
things that are there probably shouldn't be.  The solution to this is
to design more, and code 

Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread Willem
Hi. The parts of nvda written in python are the parts not memory or CPU 
intensive. In those cases especially is where scripting languages shine. 
Python is also good for testing an idea or quickly writing a program.

On 7/21/2011 8:18 PM, shaun everiss wrote:

I aggree with you.
Yeah all the scripting languages are probably quite limiting in 
themselves.

Directly coding stuf is sertainly more powerfull than those.
There are acceptions.
Nvda is python, although saying that several of its libs were made 
with c or c++.

So I don't know its not exactly that small anymore.
At 05:38 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a thousand lines of code, and it only
took three days to implement.  But it also doesn't work quite right,
and it isn't consistent, and things that should be there aren't while
things that are there probably shouldn't be.  The solution to this is
to design more, and code less, regardless of the programming language.


Dennis Towne

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread Dennis Towne
Shaun,

We all start out in some language, usually a higher level one.
Myself, I started with Tandy BASIC on a TRS-80 radio shack computer; I
had also learned and used Pascal, C, and 8086 assembly language prior
to getting a degree.  Further, my degree isn't even in programming or
software engineering.

As I said in my previous post, for toys and hobbies, certain languages
are fine, because the demands placed on them aren't very stressful.
But there are projects and coding styles for which those languages are
not appropriate.  This is not a matter of opinion; it is a statement
of fact, language construction, and problem domain.

As I saw the situation, Thomas did nothing more than point out this
fact, for which he was derided and trolled by people that have what
appears to be far less experience than him.  As a fellow game
developer with a thick hide, I'm more than happy to stand out front
and take some of the flames.

It's one thing to have a discussion about programming languages where
people are interested in having a discussion.  It's quite another to
troll a productive game developer until he quits the list.


Dennis Towne


On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 2:27 PM, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote:
 I also aggree with that side.
 And I never got a degree either.
 I tried vb etc, but to be truthfull my languages I did studdy are freepascal
 using the devpascal ide by bloodshed or javascript.
 Javascript is real limiting anyway but if there were libs for stuff I'd
 probably be more comfortable to do something in pascal myself.
 Its been known for ages in the industry,  that c++ is needed to  go beyond
 playing with our toys and into bigger and better things.
 However we are not talking about making huge piles of cash here.
 Heck our stuff doesn't even make mainstream.
 So our toys as you call it denis are probably toys but its safe to say that
 most of us are probably hobbyists I think its fair to say that most of us
 are not thinking they will get millions of dollars to really develop gaming.
 Heck Companies may only be 1-2 people at most not sure of stats but we are
 quite small and will probably remain so for a while.
 It also depends on what you are used to.
 Obviously if you know c++ already then keep using what you know.
 If you have jumped in the sharks and are happy there, go ahead and continue,
 the rest of us though are probably little fish.
 I am not sure if this is correct but as far as I know tom is the first of
 his kind or close to anyway.
 I don't have the stomach to learn programming let alone c++.
 Though I have always had a dream that when I eventually did program I'd use
 something by boreland corp.
 Its never happened but yeah.

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-21 Thread shaun everiss

well willim on the part of old games.
They can be run at least from windows still but no backspacing and 
several other modifier keys won't work but yes you can still play 
them though yeah simple dos stuff is a thing of the past now.

At 06:59 a.m. 22/07/2011, you wrote:

Hi all.
Dennis, I agree with you completely about vb6.  Che, you are right 
in saying that results are important. Many games were created in vb6 
which I regularly play and enjoy. The big difference between vb6 and 
python, is that python is still actively being developed and 
supported where Microsoft ended support for vb6 years ago. My advice 
to new programmers would be to investigate viability of the language 
they choose to use too.


I also regularly play alter eon and it is one of the muds with the 
least bugs and almost no lag at all. Lag may be one of the 
disadvantages to using higher level languages.


The use of vb6 will most probably become a problem later when arm 
becomes popular, Microsoft changes something in windows or the old 
hardware laying around breaks. This is what happened to most dos 
games, though I'm sure the die hearts will still find a way to run the games.
And as seen in trying to run some old software, emulators will not 
always work.


Never the less, most games out there are written in vb6 and they are 
fun to play. I hope we as a community can find a way to make the 
games playable on newer and different hardware and operating systems 
as there are few enough games out there.

On 7/21/2011 8:00 PM, Che wrote:

  Hi Dennis,
  Let me be the first to reitterate that I am not very experienced 
as a programmer.  I didn't get a degree in it, I had to do most of 
the heavy lifting by learning from the web and various books.
  I agree that if I were to take on a massive multi year project 
with tons of database pulls etc. I'd have to look at something more low level.
  But neither myself, nor the vast majority of audio game 
developers need that kind of juice, and our games run just fine, 
and we make decent products with what we know.
  More importantly, folks have to walk before they can run, and 
others constantly crapping on python, VB et. al. are doing a 
disservice to new developers trying to get a toe hold. I know I 
keep repeating that sentiment, but it bears repeating as evidenced 
once again by this post.
  So while you may think VB is a toy, we've made a lot of people 
smile and enjoy themselves with our toys.

  also, you said:
quote:
I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
 take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
 too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.
 end quote.
  Given the rant sent to list yesterday, I wasn't sure who you 
were talking about there, so I didn't know if I should feel 
offended or not, please advise.

  Later,
che


On 7/21/2011 12:38 PM, Dennis Towne wrote:

Thomas and friends,

Sorry to reopen what is probably a closed conversation, but I'm a
developer as well, and I have something to say.  Further, I have a
similar background to Thomas in regard to programming, and I'm not
nearly as polite and restrained as he is. So let me be blunt:

VB is a toy scripting language useful only for small projects and
hobby work.  Full stop.  Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred
dollars.  If anyone chooses to take that as an insult for some reason,
go right ahead.  I have zero patience for thin-skinned people that
take offense at anything they feel might slight them.  I have worked
too long in this industry to tolerate drama queens.

If developers want to release a small project that isn't necessarily
portable, doesn't care about memory requirements, doesn't care about
processor requirements, and doesn't always work exactly right, that's
their business.  In fact, a lot of applications fall into this
category, and I personally use perl, PHP, and bash for a bunch of
them.  But I'd never use those for any serious, long term project.

The fact of the matter is that rapid prototyping languages and
scripting languages are meant for just that: rapid prototyping and
scripting.  I would never consider writing something like Alter Aeon
in VB. The server has well over a million allocated objects in flight
on a slow day, and I'd be surprised if the VB allocator could even
create that many objects without crashing, much less keep track of
them all.

Finally, development time is largely unrelated to the choice of
programming language once a project reaches a certain size.  Any large
project will have a number of libraries created over the years to make
things easier and simpler.  Myself, I spend at most 20% of my time
actually writing C++ code.  The remaining 80% is spent coming up with
a good design, testing it, and getting feedback from the users.
Switching to a faster language would provide virtually no benefit when
adding new features to the game.

In fact, lack of design and testing is the most common problem I see
in programs.  Sure, it's only a 

Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Che

  Hi Dark,
  I think maybe you missed my point in mentioning David and Jeremy.
My point was that they have an amazing output in both quantity and 
quality with tools that Thomas keeps putting down with his various 
comments, and they certainly don't fall under the category of lazy, nor 
are they ignorant of the other programming choices available to them.
  I don't respond well to passive aggressive behavior, and if Thomas 
didn't mean to be insulting by using terms such as lazy and saying he 
does things the right way, etc, he should have, given the previous flags 
thrown up by other developers on this list previously.
  Again, to understand why this behavior on list is so upsetting to me 
and others, refer to my previous message on the topic of hurting the 
community whether meaning to or not as well as being obtuse.
  I don't expect to get much support here on list. Folks don't like 
getting in the middle of crap like this, and I don't blame them, but I'm 
a direct kind of guy, and when I've had enough of something, I'm gonna 
let you know, and again apologies if folks don't wanna hear this.
  Also, please note that I changed the subject line on this, although 
you did get this topic going, I did not hijack it.

  Later,
Che



On 7/20/2011 12:45 AM, dark wrote:

Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement.

My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference
different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal
issues aside, some games took far longer to produce than others.

though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly
that a discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the
merrits or flaws of a given programmer.

The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not!

Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread dark

Hello Che.

Well Che, one thing I will say is that I have noticed Thomas does have a 
tendency to often use more words than he means, and perhaps not necessarily 
the most tactful ones, eg, lazy instead of time saving.


Equally, as someone who has been a moderator for a long time, i'd myself be 
rather slow to use terms like passive aggressive in a communication such 
as E-mail, simply because often such things are all contained in tone and 
intonation which is something you don't get.


That is my thought as regards the actual dispute and what one person has 
said to another, and while not a moderator my previous reply was probably 
what I would've given if I were one ;D.


As regards the actual issue under discussion, that of programming languages, 
as I said, I am rather finding it difficult to understand thomas 
justifications for using C++ over something more time saving,  though i 
do see his point about cross platform if he wishes to include that.
- Original Message - 

For instance, he mentions this garbage collector in net based languages, 
thus freeing the programmer from doing it.


to me, that sounds bloody useful, indeed, as I understand the process, the 
point of bgt was to have C++  like scripting without the need for such 
things.


It's like cooking, while there are some things like using fresh vedge 
instead offrozen that deffinately! are noticeable to whoever eats the meal 
at the end, others, such as buying frozen hash browns instead of making your 
own really aren't, and though there are sum chefs who would insist on doing 
everything themselves, if it makes litle difference, this ultimately seems 
to do nothing but make the customer wait.


That being said, Thom can use whatever language he wants and hopefully we'll 
get to see the results of that soon when mota is finally finished.


All this however, is as I said, quite aside from the personal qualities or 
choices of any programmer. Heck, Philip bennifall wrote Tarzan junior in 
javascript and admits himself it was not the best language for that,  it 
doesn't stop the game being quite fun!


Beware the grue!

Dark.


From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible 
programming speed




  Hi Dark,
  I think maybe you missed my point in mentioning David and Jeremy.
My point was that they have an amazing output in both quantity and quality 
with tools that Thomas keeps putting down with his various comments, and 
they certainly don't fall under the category of lazy, nor are they 
ignorant of the other programming choices available to them.
  I don't respond well to passive aggressive behavior, and if Thomas 
didn't mean to be insulting by using terms such as lazy and saying he does 
things the right way, etc, he should have, given the previous flags thrown 
up by other developers on this list previously.
  Again, to understand why this behavior on list is so upsetting to me and 
others, refer to my previous message on the topic of hurting the community 
whether meaning to or not as well as being obtuse.
  I don't expect to get much support here on list. Folks don't like 
getting in the middle of crap like this, and I don't blame them, but I'm a 
direct kind of guy, and when I've had enough of something, I'm gonna let 
you know, and again apologies if folks don't wanna hear this.
  Also, please note that I changed the subject line on this, although you 
did get this topic going, I did not hijack it.

  Later,
Che



On 7/20/2011 12:45 AM, dark wrote:

Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement.

My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference
different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal
issues aside, some games took far longer to produce than others.

though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly
that a discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the
merrits or flaws of a given programmer.

The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not!

Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Jeremy Kaldobsky
I have to agree with you Che.  When someone is told something over and over, by 
different people, it's harder to believe excuses.  I don't want to get in to 
any type of argument, myself, but I do feel like I should support Che, when I 
happen to agree with him.  I see the same thing he is seeing.  When contrasting 
yourself with someone else, terms you use to describe yourself, and how you do 
things, implies that the other person does the opposite.  This is pretty 
standard in the English language, so I don't think Che is reading too deep into 
the things that were being said.

If 2 political candidates get up to talk about why they are better qualified 
for a position, and one specifically states I pay my taxes!, what is he 
implying about the other guy?

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Che,

My apologies. I sincerely am not trying to be obtuse, but have always
strived to help others the best I can to the best of my abilities. My
intentions were never to confuse, intimidate, or put down others for
choosing something else. I merely wanted to state the facts as I
understand them. That is where you and I disagree, and the source of
this discussion.

In a way programming languages are like which screen reader to use. A
lot of it boils down to personal preference, personal opinion, and
therefore is very subjective. I'm sure if you put a bunch of potential
blind computer users in a room who are considering buying a screen
reader and then march out a Jaws user, Window-Eyes user, Hal user,
NVDA user, etc and have a public debate you would end up with an
argument similar to the one we have now. Each would have reasons why
or why not their particular screen reader is better than the other
ones, and the people in the audience, those watching the debate, could
be very confused during the debate. Moreover its hard to make any kind
of decision in a situation like that because it requires practical
hands on experience which they simply do not have to make an informed
decision on their own.

When it comes to programming languages we are faced with the exact
same kind of situation.  As a personal preference I tend to stick to
C-Style languages like C, C++, C#, and Java, and since I obviously
like them I am more likely to promote them rather than VB or Python
which I do not like I guess as I am pretty vocal about what I do not
like some people are confused, unsure,  and feel as though they are
being put down because of it. For that I am sorry. That's not my
intent. I never wanted people to think they are losers just because
they don't do what I say. I'm not like that at all.

As for this entire discussion I'm pretty sick and tired of it too. I'd
really like it if we can find some amicable way to settle this issue
once and for all and put it behind us. I don't want to see the list,
more importantly, this community to be torn apart and destroyed over
such a rediculous argument. If that means I must resign as list
moderator and leave so be it.

As for your last message I felt it was way too harsh and overblown,
and I found it extremely insulting, to say the least, that you chose
to start this on the list. You could have talked to me off list, man
to man, but no you had to flame, insult, humiliate, and utterally tare
me down on list, and that is the height of disrespect in my opinion.
I'm very angry, hurt, and extremely insulted. You are very fortunate
I'm showing some restraint right now as I'm in a very bad mood. The
kind of mood where I'd cuss you up one side and down the other because
I don't appreciate being insulted publicly for any reason. I will not
stand for it. Either you go or I go, but one of us won't be here by
the end of this debate if we can't find some kind of amicable
solution.

Finally, you said I've been beaten over the head several times with
your point by other developers etc. Perhaps so, but did you ever think
I stand firm by my opinions. Maybe I say what I say because I feel it
is the right position, the right opinion, etc. If you call that obtuse
so be it, but you are not going to change my mind or get me to retract
things I said no matter how much you insult me and piss me off.All
that will get you and this community is one less developer. I'm right
now considering closing USA Games and just walking away from it all,
because I sure as hell don't feel very appreciated right now. I've had
enough negative criticism from this community for a life time. If it
isn't one thing its another. Sorry to say this attack was about the
last straw I can take, and I'm just about ready to say, to hell with
the blind gaming community! I've had enough with it!

I'm sorry if people are offended by that, but its the truth. I'm sick
and tired of people bitching that Mysteries of the Ancients isn't
done. Im sick and tired of people bitching that Raceway isn't done.
I'm damn sure sick and tired of being beaten over the head by a few
developers who get pissed off and bent out of shape over an impersonal
debate over programming languages etc. Now, I am extremely pissed off,
and I'm ready to just walk away from the entire sorry mess. So don't
be surprised if I just don't quit like James North and go somewhere
else where I might, just might, be appreciated by the online
community. Frankly, I'm fed up with the bull crap and not going to put
up with it any longer.

Goodbye!

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread darren harris
Pissed off? Isn't that swearing? For which you have come down on people hard
in the passed? What a fine example you're setting.

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 20 July 2011 09:25
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible
programming speed

Hi Che,

My apologies. I sincerely am not trying to be obtuse, but have always
strived to help others the best I can to the best of my abilities. My
intentions were never to confuse, intimidate, or put down others for
choosing something else. I merely wanted to state the facts as I understand
them. That is where you and I disagree, and the source of this discussion.

In a way programming languages are like which screen reader to use. A lot of
it boils down to personal preference, personal opinion, and therefore is
very subjective. I'm sure if you put a bunch of potential blind computer
users in a room who are considering buying a screen reader and then march
out a Jaws user, Window-Eyes user, Hal user, NVDA user, etc and have a
public debate you would end up with an argument similar to the one we have
now. Each would have reasons why or why not their particular screen reader
is better than the other ones, and the people in the audience, those
watching the debate, could be very confused during the debate. Moreover its
hard to make any kind of decision in a situation like that because it
requires practical hands on experience which they simply do not have to make
an informed decision on their own.

When it comes to programming languages we are faced with the exact same kind
of situation.  As a personal preference I tend to stick to C-Style languages
like C, C++, C#, and Java, and since I obviously like them I am more likely
to promote them rather than VB or Python which I do not like I guess as I am
pretty vocal about what I do not like some people are confused, unsure,  and
feel as though they are being put down because of it. For that I am sorry.
That's not my intent. I never wanted people to think they are losers just
because they don't do what I say. I'm not like that at all.

As for this entire discussion I'm pretty sick and tired of it too. I'd
really like it if we can find some amicable way to settle this issue once
and for all and put it behind us. I don't want to see the list, more
importantly, this community to be torn apart and destroyed over such a
rediculous argument. If that means I must resign as list moderator and leave
so be it.

As for your last message I felt it was way too harsh and overblown, and I
found it extremely insulting, to say the least, that you chose to start this
on the list. You could have talked to me off list, man to man, but no you
had to flame, insult, humiliate, and utterally tare me down on list, and
that is the height of disrespect in my opinion.
I'm very angry, hurt, and extremely insulted. You are very fortunate I'm
showing some restraint right now as I'm in a very bad mood. The kind of mood
where I'd cuss you up one side and down the other because I don't appreciate
being insulted publicly for any reason. I will not stand for it. Either you
go or I go, but one of us won't be here by the end of this debate if we
can't find some kind of amicable solution.

Finally, you said I've been beaten over the head several times with your
point by other developers etc. Perhaps so, but did you ever think I stand
firm by my opinions. Maybe I say what I say because I feel it is the right
position, the right opinion, etc. If you call that obtuse so be it, but you
are not going to change my mind or get me to retract things I said no matter
how much you insult me and piss me off.All that will get you and this
community is one less developer. I'm right now considering closing USA Games
and just walking away from it all, because I sure as hell don't feel very
appreciated right now. I've had enough negative criticism from this
community for a life time. If it isn't one thing its another. Sorry to say
this attack was about the last straw I can take, and I'm just about ready to
say, to hell with the blind gaming community! I've had enough with it!

I'm sorry if people are offended by that, but its the truth. I'm sick and
tired of people bitching that Mysteries of the Ancients isn't done. Im sick
and tired of people bitching that Raceway isn't done.
I'm damn sure sick and tired of being beaten over the head by a few
developers who get pissed off and bent out of shape over an impersonal
debate over programming languages etc. Now, I am extremely pissed off, and
I'm ready to just walk away from the entire sorry mess. So don't be
surprised if I just don't quit like James North and go somewhere else where
I might, just might, be appreciated by the online community. Frankly, I'm
fed up with the bull crap and not going to put up with it any longer.

Goodbye!

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,

My Gods, man! You are really beginning to piss me off to no end. I
never said Jeremey or anyone else was ignorant of their alternatives,
nor did I mean to say they were lazy in the negative sense.On the
contrary as you pointed out Jeremy, GMA, and Jim Kitchen have me beat
when it comes to the number of games they have produced. That's an
issue that is not in doubt nor is disputable.

What offends me to the utter limit of my temper is the fact you get on
this list, open your fucking mouth, and begin insinuating meanings and
putting words in my mouth I did notsay with your passive-agressive
bool shit. You want to preach about hurting the community like you are
the voice of reason when you get on this damn list and insult me time
and time again by acusing me of being passive-agressive. Well, you
want to hear agressive then here is what I think of you right now.

You are being a god damn, self-righteous, fucking, prick. You are a
worthless son of a bitch to get on here, insult me, accuse me of
things I didn't mean or imply.  True, i might have worded my messages
better, might have shosen better terminology like time saving rather
than lazy, but you have no god damn fucking right to get on  this list
acting like you are Jesus fucking Christ and I'm Satan. You can take
your god damn Visual Basic, Python, whatever language you like and
shove it up your fucking ass! I've had it with you worthless assholes!

Resigning the moderator position and this fucking list effectively
immediately,. Consider USA Games closed as of further notice. I'm
pushed all I am going to be pushed and you and this god damn fucking
winy, bitchy, community can go to hell for all I care. You can kiss my
ass.

P.S.

If you are offended and upset by this message you have noone to blame
but yourselves for the months of having to endure with complaints
about MOTA or Raceway not getting completed on time, and then having
to have Che rub my nose in the dirt over what should have been a mild
disagreement over programming tools and languages. Thank him for the
end of USA Games and the end of my future partisipation with this
community. I will not stand for being insulted or have my name or
character slandered in such a fassion So now you have something to
talk about that will keep this community talking for months after I'm
gone. I hope you are happy with yourselves. Chew on that for a while.

Goodbye

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread darren harris
Bye Thomas, it's been amusing. 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Thomas Ward
Sent: 20 July 2011 10:57
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible
programming speed

Hi,

My Gods, man! You are really beginning to piss me off to no end. I
never said Jeremey or anyone else was ignorant of their alternatives,
nor did I mean to say they were lazy in the negative sense.On the
contrary as you pointed out Jeremy, GMA, and Jim Kitchen have me beat
when it comes to the number of games they have produced. That's an
issue that is not in doubt nor is disputable.

What offends me to the utter limit of my temper is the fact you get on
this list, open your fucking mouth, and begin insinuating meanings and
putting words in my mouth I did notsay with your passive-agressive
bool shit. You want to preach about hurting the community like you are
the voice of reason when you get on this damn list and insult me time
and time again by acusing me of being passive-agressive. Well, you
want to hear agressive then here is what I think of you right now.

You are being a god damn, self-righteous, fucking, prick. You are a
worthless son of a bitch to get on here, insult me, accuse me of
things I didn't mean or imply.  True, i might have worded my messages
better, might have shosen better terminology like time saving rather
than lazy, but you have no god damn fucking right to get on  this list
acting like you are Jesus fucking Christ and I'm Satan. You can take
your god damn Visual Basic, Python, whatever language you like and
shove it up your fucking ass! I've had it with you worthless assholes!

Resigning the moderator position and this fucking list effectively
immediately,. Consider USA Games closed as of further notice. I'm
pushed all I am going to be pushed and you and this god damn fucking
winy, bitchy, community can go to hell for all I care. You can kiss my
ass.

P.S.

If you are offended and upset by this message you have noone to blame
but yourselves for the months of having to endure with complaints
about MOTA or Raceway not getting completed on time, and then having
to have Che rub my nose in the dirt over what should have been a mild
disagreement over programming tools and languages. Thank him for the
end of USA Games and the end of my future partisipation with this
community. I will not stand for being insulted or have my name or
character slandered in such a fassion So now you have something to
talk about that will keep this community talking for months after I'm
gone. I hope you are happy with yourselves. Chew on that for a while.

Goodbye

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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Sarah Haake

Hi list and Thomas, in case you are still there.

I normally don't take part in such discussions, because they don't 
really concern me and I don't know enough about the technical side of 
programming to add something constructive to the discussion.


But this is a point for me where I have to express myself, since things 
have gone way too far for me now.


Thomas, what gives you the right to insult people, to flat out sware 
like this on list? The point Che made is a valid one, because you really 
often sound like you do things the right way and others not. This was 
not the first time that someone has pointed this out. Why don't you take 
the time to think about this instead of reacting like a stubborn child 
and cluttering the list with cussing all over the place?
As far as I've seen, Che didn't insult you or anyone else, he simply 
said that he had a cirtain impression of the things you said. It's ok to 
say that you didn't mean it that way, but it cirtainly is no reason to 
act up like this.


In my book, you just now killed all the respect I had for you or your 
work and I frankly had enouch of your childish behavior as soon as 
someone criticises you.
It's completely fine for me if you leave now, shut down your website and 
vanish from this community. I don't think we need such an childish or 
immature developer who freaks out for the slightest reason.


Sorry to everyone who is upset with all this, I'm too. But I also had 
enough of this sort of response to simple criticism.


So, good bye Thomas and fare well.

Best regards
Sarah 



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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread darren harris
Well said.

Remember the whole piracy issue? When Thomas decided to post a request for a
graphic novel on the list and then pleaded it was a mistake? Well he should
have gone then really because he was quite happy to threaten moderation or
banning on people for posting pirated content. So he proved then he had
double standards. When I proved this publically on list he privately emailed
me and said apologise or I'll put you on moderated. He must have expected me
to beg forgiveness. Which I didn't. suffice to say I got put on moderated
but that never bothered me because after all said and done, I new that I was
right and he was wrong and I wasn't about to devalue what I said for
apologising for something that I saw no need for apologising for. 

Today we've seen yet another example of his true colours the difference is
now he's stepped way over the line far more than any owner of this list can
justify. He has to go now pure and simple. Even if the owner was to say no
let him stay well who's going to respect him now? he's done his own damage
really. 

Personally I'm not sorry to see him go. I new it was only a matter of time
before something else happened and it has. oh well never mind he mentioned
James north as well, well I didn't like him either so either way it's no
real big loss. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Willem

Hi all.
Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little 
common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did 
not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people 
needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just 
that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.


I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over 
sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't 
change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was 
totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only 
one.


I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. 
If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their 
mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.



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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread darren harris
Well there's no need to worry about that now, Thomas has gone which has been
a long time coming in my opinion especially over the graphic novel piracy
issue, so another moderator will be chosen and brought in to replace him.
Life goes on things will return to normal pretty soon 

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Willem
Sent: 20 July 2011 16:22
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible
programming speed

Hi all.
Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little 
common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did 
not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people 
needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just 
that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over 
sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't 
change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was 
totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only 
one.

I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. 
If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their 
mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread fred olver
I think after going back through some if not all of the messages in this 
thread that it's safe to say that everyone who contributed to this hullicost 
type conflegration was rite and everyone was wrong. Certainly each one of 
you is entitled to his/her own beliefs however if you have a problem with an 
individual I think you have a responsibility to take your thoughts directly 
to that individual. Hurling insults, calling names and downright rudeness 
are not certainly acceptible under any circumstances. I think and urge each 
individual to apolojuize for his words and actions and to communicate that 
to the moderator who left in such a huff. And please feel free to forward 
this message to him as well, there is nothing to be gained from any of what 
has gone on this morning, and much to be lost. I urge all participants in 
this brew-haha to look at what they have said and why they have said it and 
re-think their stance. It's certainly okay to have your own set of beliefs, 
however if you force those beliefs on others and refuse to accept that 
whether you agree with them or not, if you look at what they are saying, 
you'll find out in the end that all of you are right.

Fred Olver
- Original Message - 
From: Willem dwill...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible 
programming speed


 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little 
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not 
 always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled 
 him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an 
 opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive 
 about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their 
 mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for 
 too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If 
 you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind. 
 There is something like a block sender list, after all.


 ---
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 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
 list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. 



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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Ryan Strunk
Hey Willem,
I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
not like this market has much competition, after all.
Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
 http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org.
 If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list,
 please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Willem Venter
Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who
backed you up too.

In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults
and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact.

On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Willem,
 I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
 understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
 be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
 because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
 viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
 those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
 be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
 those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
 not like this market has much competition, after all.
 Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
 people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
 take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
 before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

 On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
While I had, and still do, have respect for the guy, I think that has been
his biggest problem. While I have only become something of a programmer over
the last few months, and that only with BGT, I can say that I appreciate the
technical standpoint Thomas is coming from here. But he does tend to tak his
opinions and make them facts most of the time...had that not been the case,
I wonder how this might have worked out differently.

Best Regards,
Hayden


-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Willem Venter
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:46 AM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible
programming speed

Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who
backed you up too.

In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults
and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact.

On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Willem,
 I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
 understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
 be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
 because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
 viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
 those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
 be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
 those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
 not like this market has much competition, after all.
 Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
 people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
 take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
 before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

 On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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 All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1390 / Virus Database: 1518/3775 - Release Date: 07/19/11


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread Ryan Strunk
I know it, and I still appreciate you for it. What happened today was
rather unfortunate, but I do think a lot of the onus is on Tom's
initial statements and his reaction to others' responses.

On 7/20/11, Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who
 backed you up too.

 In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults
 and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact.

 On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Willem,
 I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
 understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
 be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
 because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
 viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
 those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
 be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
 those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
 not like this market has much competition, after all.
 Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
 people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
 take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
 before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

 On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


 ---
 Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread shaun everiss

Well I am not up with the play maybe because I don't read my mail all the time.
I remember once or twice when I went overboard and got the same 
reaction on here.

I don't post much, only when I have something to say.
I have been writing posts now then deleting them because I get stuck.
I am no programmer.
So I don't know.
Tom has never pushed his views out to anyone really, maybe he could 
have got a bit over at times but never that far.

However my presence is quite low key.
After what I used to be and do I try to keep it quiet I don't want trouble.
Though as of late mota has lost interest.
I have never got used to the new systems.
Its not that bad really, on the forums at audiogames people forgot 
now were making jokes about the mota beta cycle.
There is more i want to say, something about all the games from 
alchemy he chose to get and the issues with all the engines and stuff 
and other things.

BUt I don't know what to do and how to word it.
I don't want to recieve a punch in the guts.
So yeah I have said my peace.
At 10:44 p.m. 20/07/2011, you wrote:

Well said.

Remember the whole piracy issue? When Thomas decided to post a request for a
graphic novel on the list and then pleaded it was a mistake? Well he should
have gone then really because he was quite happy to threaten moderation or
banning on people for posting pirated content. So he proved then he had
double standards. When I proved this publically on list he privately emailed
me and said apologise or I'll put you on moderated. He must have expected me
to beg forgiveness. Which I didn't. suffice to say I got put on moderated
but that never bothered me because after all said and done, I new that I was
right and he was wrong and I wasn't about to devalue what I said for
apologising for something that I saw no need for apologising for.

Today we've seen yet another example of his true colours the difference is
now he's stepped way over the line far more than any owner of this list can
justify. He has to go now pure and simple. Even if the owner was to say no
let him stay well who's going to respect him now? he's done his own damage
really.

Personally I'm not sorry to see him go. I new it was only a matter of time
before something else happened and it has. oh well never mind he mentioned
James north as well, well I didn't like him either so either way it's no
real big loss.



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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread shaun everiss

thats an interesting viewpoint fred.
I never thought of it like that.
At 03:40 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote:

I think after going back through some if not all of the messages in this
thread that it's safe to say that everyone who contributed to this hullicost
type conflegration was rite and everyone was wrong. Certainly each one of
you is entitled to his/her own beliefs however if you have a problem with an
individual I think you have a responsibility to take your thoughts directly
to that individual. Hurling insults, calling names and downright rudeness
are not certainly acceptible under any circumstances. I think and urge each
individual to apolojuize for his words and actions and to communicate that
to the moderator who left in such a huff. And please feel free to forward
this message to him as well, there is nothing to be gained from any of what
has gone on this morning, and much to be lost. I urge all participants in
this brew-haha to look at what they have said and why they have said it and
re-think their stance. It's certainly okay to have your own set of beliefs,
however if you force those beliefs on others and refuse to accept that
whether you agree with them or not, if you look at what they are saying,
you'll find out in the end that all of you are right.

Fred Olver
- Original Message -
From: Willem dwill...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible
programming speed


 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did not
 always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people needled
 him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just that, an
 opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over sensitive
 about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't change their
 mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was totally uncalled for
 too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like. If
 you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their mind.
 There is something like a block sender list, after all.


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread shaun everiss
I guess that python could be classed as a simple language because its 
script base and all script class languages are simple in nature.

Ok though I have respect on python.
Ok hardcoding stuff like c++ probably not that advanced.
But by nature its multiplatform.
Its what nvda is based on so its good for what it is.
At 03:41 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote:

Hey Willem,
I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
not like this market has much competition, after all.
Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-20 Thread shaun everiss
well as I have probably stated before there  tom has always said he 
ran with c++ as a language.

That language is harder to learn than others and is complex.
His ideas were quite advanced for the gaming community.
Critsising people about their languages is not fair but then I only 
tested games and made sounds for those.

I never programmed in my life.
And he was not always like that there was a time where dotnet was 
what he liked.

And he has always been helpfull.
At 03:45 a.m. 21/07/2011, you wrote:

Ryan, I remember that time. If you recall I was one of those who
backed you up too.

In the end, Thomas admitted he was biest toward python and no insults
and name calling was required, just reason and statement of fact.

On 7/20/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hey Willem,
 I've also had to defend my stance on Python with Tom, and while I
 understand the need for diplomacy, I think there's also something to
 be said for mis-information. My Python response became necessary
 because Tom was telling aspiring programmers that Python was not a
 viable language. So much of his opinion was being stated as fact, and
 those interested in learning were taking it as such. It's hard not to
 be offended when, amongst a small community of developers, one of
 those self-same developers feels the need to criticize his peers. It's
 not like this market has much competition, after all.
 Tom stated in his first response to Che that he doesn't understand why
 people always mischaracterize what he says. If several people seem to
 take his words in the wrong light, perhaps he needs to reflect on that
 before getting upset at others for not understanding him.

 On 7/20/11, Willem dwill...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi all.
 Firstly, a lot of this nonsense could have been avoided with a little
 common sense and a lot less self important attitudes. Yes, Thomas did
 not always express himself diplomaticly enough, but also some people
 needled him repeatedly until he snapped. Saying this, an opinion is just
 that, an opinion and thomas had no right forcing his on people.

 I think people like Che and to a lesser extend Jeremy were over
 sensitive about the whole vb issue. Unnecisary atacking of people won't
 change their mind and helps nothing in the end. Thomas's email was
 totally uncalled for too and was really childish, but he wasn't the only
 one.

 I hope we can all learn to ignore the people or opinions we don't like.
 If you can't convince someone with reason, nothing will change their
 mind. There is something like a block sender list, after all.


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Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-19 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Che,

I'm sorry you took my comments so negatively, but I was not trying to
put down, insult, or treat other programmers as incompetent, etc. Let
me say that you are reading more into what I said then was intended or
implied. I'm not sure how or why I always get myself into these kinds
of situations, but it seems to me a lot of people jump to the wrong
conclusions or opinions of what I say. All I can say is it is a lot of
miscommunication between you and I.

For instance, you said, Have you taken a look at what David Greenwood
has put out in the past 10 years with his incompetent skills, inferior
programming language and low level work ethic?

Never in all the years I've been a member of this community have I
ever accused David Greenwood of being incompetent or having a lazy
work ethic etc. On the contrary I have a great deal of respect for the
work he has done and purchased Lone Wolf, Shades of Doom, tank
Commander, Time of Conflict, etc. In fact the only product of his I
have not purchased is VIP Mud simply because I'm not really into
mudding myself. Otherwise I have purchased and enjoyed every one of
his products. Yes, I might not agree with the language and tools he
uses, but that doesn't in anyway mean I do not respect him or his
work. To say otherwise is a complete misrepresentation of
my character, and would be absolutely false.

As for the issue that I passively aggressively labeled you as a lazy
programmer you are just wrong on that account. I never intended to say
that. What I said was that there was a time and place for certain
languages like VB to be used when the developer is in a hurry to get
things done, when the person is on a schedule like a corperate
environment, or if they don't want to take the extra time to build a
game or similar product from scratch. I know why you are all fired
upset, and that's because I used the word lazy, but what I meant by
being lazy is simply not wanting to take more time than necessary to
create a product. That's not necessarily a bad thing, and I did not
mean it in a negative context although I do see how you could draw
that conclusion. I don't know what else to say other than you took my
meaning, interpreted it in the wrong way, and twisted it to say
something other than what was meant.

So here is the issue. You say I am being very insulting. That I'm
putting other developers down even though I am in no way trying to do
that. All I am trying to do or say is explain why I personally do what
I do, why I might choose to use C++ over some other language, and the
logic behind what I am doing.

Sometimes that requires mentioning some short comings of another
language like VB that I feel does not meet my personal standards or
requirements. In such a case my comments are only directed at the
language under discussion. That's a totally separate issue of weather
I think Jeremey, David Greenwood, Jim Kitchen, or someone else is a
decent programmer and should or should not be respected.  In many
cases I do respect the programmer, enjoy his body of work, despite
being written in a language I wouldn't use myself. Why do you insist
that if I say language x isn't the best language out there you
immediately assume it is some underhanded attack on some other
developer who uses the language?


I honestly don't understand where you are coming from, but let me tell
you how I see things. If I say that I don't agree with the developers
choice of language or tools you guys immediately take it as a personal
insult. Even though I respect what the developer is doing with what he
knows or uses. Never-the-less you automatically assume I don't respect
him, and that's not true.

A case in point. You used VB .Net for Rail Racer. I totally understand
why you chose the language, and I have nothing but respect for you as
a new developer for creating such a superb racing game.  My issue
isn't with you or Rail Racer personally, but I might have a few
technical things against VB .Net from a development standpoint. One of
those being simply that it requires several extra packages like .Net
Framework and Managed DirectX to be installed on to the end users
machine to get it to run when I could relie on core C++ libraries and
components to do the same thing with a lot less in terms of extra
dependencies. Of course, now that .Net is a core component of Windows
7 that's not really such a problem any more.  However, my view of the
language and tools does not mean that I consider you or anyone else as
incompetent for using them. If you think I'm saying you are
incompetent then maybe you are being a tad bit overly sensitive, and
looking for things in my messages that aren't there.

In short, what I am saying is as people we often begin labeling others
a certain way, and no matter what they say or do we filter them
through those initial preconceptions. By the tone of your message you
make me sound like some kind of puffed up, arrogant, self-righteous,
self-aggrandizing, elitist or something. This is 

Re: [Audyssey] Programming elitists was: Re: Jeremy's incredible programming speed

2011-07-19 Thread dark

Good grief! I never intended this to turnn into such an arguement.

My intention primarily was to find out, as an end user, what difference 
different programming languages made and why, life concerns and legal issues 
aside, some games took far longer to produce than others.


though I am not a moderator, I'd like to remind people very strongly that a 
discussion of programming languages is not! a discussion of the merrits or 
flaws of a given programmer.


The one is useful and informative, the other is deffinately not!

Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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