Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ken, Oh, it depends on a number of factors. How much you plan to charge for the game, how many platforms you intend to support, the size of your intended target market etc. For example, to sell a shareware game from $10 to $20 for a single platform is $150. That's not too bad for a developer who only wants to write games for a single platform and plans to keep his/her prices low. However, on the far end of the skale if you have multiple platforms, games that cost up to $40, a large distribution market, then you are looking at something like $6,000 for a commercial license. For USA Games we are looking at about $600for a license for FMOD which supports Linux and Windows and let's us sell MOTA and Raceway for something like $30 each. We are still working out the details with Firelight as the issue is complicated as I don't want to include the API in just a single game, but in our G3D Engine which generally is under a different type of license than the main ones they have. However, if you just want to release free games Firelight allows you to use the FMOD Ex API free of charge. Anyway, FMOD Ex is definitely the leading audio API on the market right now. Firelight has been doing more to promote this thing than anybody else. On Windows they made the very good choice of making it a standard com component which means you don't have to be strictly a C/C++ developer to use it. They designed the Windows library in such a way that it will work with legacy languages like VB 6 as well as the new .Net languages. If you are in the mind to write wrappers you could in theory use it with Python and Java based applications as well. Then, for Linux and Mac developers they offer a compatible C/C++ library that makes it very easy to write games for Windows, Mac, and Linux without having to change audio APIs in the process. All of that is good, but the features of the API get even better. For instance, if you use anything like DirectSound, XAudio2, OpenAL, you have to write your own file open functions which isn't really that fun to do. If you want to support compressed file types like mp3, ogg, wma, etc you have to do that yourself as well. FMOD Ex has all that built into the API from the start. Just tell it to open an mp3, wma, ogg file, etc and it will open it up and use it. Saving developers x man hours writing our own open/decompress functionality for our games. If that wasn't enough it has stereo panning, 3d virtualization, as well as real time DSP effects like echo, low pass filters, etc which you can use to enhance the sound of the games ambience. Its really hard to compare it to anything else as it really has everything a game dev could want and more. Cheers! On 4/26/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Oh wow! I didn't realize it would work with VB6. I'll have to look into that. Bet it would cost a lot to buy a license to sell games with it though eh? Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Hayden, Well, your confusion is do in large part to the fact you are comparing two different meanings of the word runtime. In general the word runtime simply means a dependency or compiled library or executable rrequired by a certain program. This meaning of runtime has absolutely nothing to do with if a programming language is a native programming language or a runtime programming language. As I'm certain what I'm saying has royally confused you let me explain in more detail. When we talk about programming languages they are generally divided up into three basic catagories: low level, intermediate level, and high level. Each of these have advantages and disadvantages and are used for different applications of programming. First, we have the low level programming languages like Assembly which can be compiled into what we call a native application. What that means is the Assembly code you typed into Notepad is converted to machine language, also called binary, which is simply a huge string of ones and zeros. These ones and zeros, binary, work by sending on/off pulses to the CPU. Every time the state is 1 it is on and every time a 0 is sent that is off. If you string enough of these ones and zeros together you can form words, graphics, music, etc. I'm not going to explain the ins and outs of binary theory, but its enough to say that anything you write in Assembly can be converted directly into machine language your CPU can understand. Therefore it is a native application and is usually very specific to the type of platform and hardware it was designed for. Second, we have the intermediate languages such as C and C++. This is what most developers use today because you can still compile programs into machine language, but the language is a lot easier to understand than Assembly code. It allows for some more abstract ideas such as classes, structures, unions, pointers, etc all that helps the programmer communicate with the computer in something he/she can understand. However, unlike Assembly a C++ compiler breaks the compilation process down into two steps. First it converts C++ into assembly, and then links the Assembly objects into a binary file the CPU can understand. Finally, we have the high level languages where Python, Java, Perl, and the .Net languages come in. These languages are often very readable, very easy to understand, look the most like human speech, but they usually get compiled to what we call an intermediate language. In other words instead of getting a binary file compiled into machine code it is still mostly human readable, and it requires a seperate program, usually written in C++, to execute the code. For example, python.exe, java.exe, perl.exe, etc are native C/C++ applications that simply executes the instructions stored in your Java, Python, or Perl application. These runtime languages are simply that. They require a third-party runtime program like Java, Python, Perl, .Net, etc to be installed to run were a true native C/C++ application can run without any third-party applications. To clarify the point. The Linux kernel, vmlinuz, is written in C. It boots the operating system as well as handles all the low level drivers. It can do that because C doesn't need anything else but itself to run. You couldn't do that with Python, Java, Perl, whatever because you can't convert the code in to machine language. They still require a specific C or C++ application to be installed to run. Now, I am able to answer your question more directly. In the case of something like the Microsoft Visual C++ Runtime they aren't talking about an actual Runtime environment like Java, Python, Perl, etc but a set of dependencies required by apps compiled by Visual C++. The difference here is that if I wanted too I could take my code and compile it with MinGW or some other C++ compiler and never use the MSVC Runtime libraries at all. Those MSVC++ Runtime libraries are just libraries most Windows developers use to access various things when programming Windows apps. That has nothing to do with weather C++ can be compiled to machine language or compiled to an intermediate language the way Java, Python, .Net, etc are. You were quite litterally mixing apples and oranges here from a programming/technical point of view. HTH On 4/25/11, Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com wrote: HI Thomas, Something that has confused me is this: obviously I am not following what native binary means but if C++ is not a runtime language then why do you end up needing to have C++ runtime libraries on your system to run an application written in C++? Best Regards, Hayden --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Well, as for me, the only reason I want to learn a new language is because the 3d audio for Directx with vb6 sucks... real bad... and Doppler doesn't work, and neither do the sound cones. I'm just not really up for learning a whole new language honestly. There are things I really want to see programmed, but I do a lot more than program games, and I still haven't come up with a good protection system for Phrase Madness... or whatever the final name of the game will be. I like the idea of the interactivity of Python. I'm just not sure I'm up to the task of learning it. I also write books and have kids to raise, so I'm not bored to tears any more, the way I was when I was eighteen. So the long and short of it is, if I could get some good, solid, foundational code--like Justin did, in another language I might experiment--tweak it here, change something there, and after a while have a whole new and better game. Till then I'll be using both vb6 and Basic4PPC, and probably Basic for Droid if I ever get rich enough to buy one of those lol. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t AMEN Che! I agree 100% --- On Sat, 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t To: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:17 PM As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient and dedicated developer. No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter. If your skills suck, it won't matter. If your dedication sucks, it won't matter. The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part, learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic, and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or any other language for that matter. I want to reiterate, this post isn't here to flame anyone else, but I know a lot of you guys on list here follow thomas' posts closely, and as a fellow quote unquote professional developer, I just think he is dead wrong about the downside of python, and I would hate to see someone not use python because they have heard it can't do what they want. check the programming options out yourself, and make a balanced opinion for what works for you, your idea and implementation will be the reason your game succeeds or fails, not the language you choose. Lord knows, we need as many creative game developers out there as we can get for the audio game community, and no matter what you use to create it, if its fun
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ken, There is an alternative to DirectX. There is FMOD Ex which you could include in free games for no cost to the developer. It only has t be licensed if it is apart of a commercial title or integrated into a commercial game engine etc. It is a Windows com component so you can use it with VB 6, C# .net, VB .Net, Java, or just about anything else that can use Windows com components. It has very decent 3d positioning, DSP effects, and relaly is unmatched when it comes to audio APIS. I'm using it right now, the Linux version, to upgrade my G3D Engine for Linux. On 4/25/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Well, as for me, the only reason I want to learn a new language is because the 3d audio for Directx with vb6 sucks... real bad... and Doppler doesn't work, and neither do the sound cones. I'm just not really up for learning a whole new language honestly. There are things I really want to see programmed, but I do a lot more than program games, and I still haven't come up with a good protection system for Phrase Madness... or whatever the final name of the game will be. I like the idea of the interactivity of Python. I'm just not sure I'm up to the task of learning it. I also write books and have kids to raise, so I'm not bored to tears any more, the way I was when I was eighteen. So the long and short of it is, if I could get some good, solid, foundational code--like Justin did, in another language I might experiment--tweak it here, change something there, and after a while have a whole new and better game. Till then I'll be using both vb6 and Basic4PPC, and probably Basic for Droid if I ever get rich enough to buy one of those lol. Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t AMEN Che! I agree 100% --- On Sat, 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t To: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:17 PM As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient and dedicated developer. No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter. If your skills suck, it won't matter. If your dedication sucks, it won't matter. The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part, learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic, and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or any other language for that matter. I want to reiterate
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ken,
I wish you luck in your journey. I'm still learning a lot of this myself,
but I would be happy to help in whatever way I can.
You're right about Sound RTS slowing down with big, laggy maps, but I
believe that's more a matter of the way the game was coded. If the developer
used a module like numpy, I think he'd have better luck. At the same time,
though, keep in mind how slow games like ToC get when you have them running
with lots of units at once, especially if you try to throw in Braille
support.
Keep in touch. I'd love to keep up with how you're faring in your practice.
Best,
Ryan
-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of The Addictor
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 12:11 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Wow! Well-done Ryan! You must have spent all day writing that!
I'm just learning Python myself, and my intention is to pick up some of the
slack in NVDA. I'm starting out with simple things, like learning to move
the focus to specific coordinates to make apps like Paltalk easier to use.
Later I'd like to learn how to get it to recognize graphics, and label those
graphics like I used to in Jaws. After that, I might start taking Moosik
apart and rewrite for the new python libraries, since I really want more
games to play with my sighted kids, but that's way beyond my abilities at
this point.
I still think that speed is a major issue though. Have you tried playing
SoundRTS on the big maps, with 4 or 5 computer opponents? My computer just
can't do it.
Other than that though, there are a lot of things I like about python,
especially its interactivity and load time. NVDA can shut down and restart
in just under two seconds, and Moosik doesn't take much longer.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com
- Original Message -
From: Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com
To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Tom,
As a budding game developer, I want to respond to your below email to
paint
what I feel is a more accurate picture of the python language. I think
there
are a few additional points everyone really should consider before jumping
headfirst into C#.net as I tried to, especially when that jump can meet
with
some pretty spectacular failures.
I will proceed our statements and responses with initials.
TW: On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there
are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get
up
and running with game programming. ... All of this makes Python look good
on
the surface.
RS: This is exactly why Python *is* good, not just on the surface, but
deeper down. Imagine being able to program a game right out of the box
that
will reach not only the Windows community, but the Mac community as well.
How many of you out there are Mac users who lament the fact that you don't
have any games to play on your computers because they've all been designed
for windows? Python can fix that for you.
Additionally, because Python is easier to learn, it's also easier to
debug.
It's a given that programmers spend far more time reading their code than
they do writing it, and Python gives you the 1UP on that too. It's the
difference between
C#
void main(string[args])
{
System.Console.WriteLine(Hello world);
}
And Python:
print Hello world.
Even those of you who have never programmed a day in your life can see the
difference.
TW: On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an
interpreter or runtime environment to run.
RS: c# is compiled to MSIL, Microsoft Intermediate language. This is a
type
of Byte code. In other words, C# is also Interpreted. If you want more on
the subject, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language
TW: ... if you are thinking about creating high performance games that
have
to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run very
slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications like
Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like that
you
really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most performance
out
of your CPU power and memory.
RS: Python was considered slow when it was first conceived nearly twenty
years ago, back when engineers flatly rejected the idea that we could ever
break the 1 gigahertz threshold on a computer's processor. Today our
processors run far upwards of 1.0GHZ, and they often do it on multiple
cores.
While I will not dispute that there are speed advantages to running
C-based
languages, I also think it's important to point out that our accessible
games will likely not reach the constraints of what Python is capable of
any
time in the near future
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ryan,
Smile. Just a couple of corrections. I think you misunderstood a
couple of things I said. Plus I think I owe you somewhat of an apology
too.
RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And
while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can
pick up the slack. Libraries like those found at
http://hg.qwitter-client.net. It's also worth pointing out that all of these
TW: I did not say it didn't have joystick support I said it does not
support joysticks with force feedback. Big, big, big difference here.
I'm well aware PyGame supports joysticks, as SDL does, but joystick
support is very generic rather than advanced support. That's what I
meant.
RS: I'm going to come out directly and say that the previous statement is
rather insulting. The language does not make the programmer, just as the
tools don't make the carpenter. If you want to be a pro and write pro-level
games, then learn to be a programmer and stick with what works for you.
TW: My apologies.I didn't mean it to come out that way. I certainly
didn't want to insult anyone. I just want to express my opinion as I
see it. Coming from a CS background were we were instructed to use
C++, Java, SQL, etc I'm really having troubles accepting Python as
anything more thanan amateur/newby language used by script kiddies and
programmer wannabes.
Of course, I am well aware Python has been growing both in support and
has been used to write a number of high-quality applications putting
the lie to my personal opinions. In fact, the screen reader I'm using
right now, Orca, was written in Python 2.6, and I'm certainly not
complaining that Orca was written in Python. I actually don't care as
long as it works and lets me read/write e-mail, use Open Office,
browse the internet, etc. So in that respect I know Python is more
than an amateur language used by real professionals. What can I say
I'm biast.
On 4/23/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote:
Hi Tom,
As a budding game developer, I want to respond to your below email to paint
what I feel is a more accurate picture of the python language. I think there
are a few additional points everyone really should consider before jumping
headfirst into C#.net as I tried to, especially when that jump can meet with
some pretty spectacular failures.
I will proceed our statements and responses with initials.
TW: On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there
are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get up
and running with game programming. ... All of this makes Python look good on
the surface.
RS: This is exactly why Python *is* good, not just on the surface, but
deeper down. Imagine being able to program a game right out of the box that
will reach not only the Windows community, but the Mac community as well.
How many of you out there are Mac users who lament the fact that you don't
have any games to play on your computers because they've all been designed
for windows? Python can fix that for you.
Additionally, because Python is easier to learn, it's also easier to debug.
It's a given that programmers spend far more time reading their code than
they do writing it, and Python gives you the 1UP on that too. It's the
difference between
C#
void main(string[args])
{
System.Console.WriteLine(Hello world);
}
And Python:
print Hello world.
Even those of you who have never programmed a day in your life can see the
difference.
TW: On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an
interpreter or runtime environment to run.
RS: c# is compiled to MSIL, Microsoft Intermediate language. This is a type
of Byte code. In other words, C# is also Interpreted. If you want more on
the subject, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language
TW: ... if you are thinking about creating high performance games that have
to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run very
slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications like
Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like that you
really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most performance out
of your CPU power and memory.
RS: Python was considered slow when it was first conceived nearly twenty
years ago, back when engineers flatly rejected the idea that we could ever
break the 1 gigahertz threshold on a computer's processor. Today our
processors run far upwards of 1.0GHZ, and they often do it on multiple
cores.
While I will not dispute that there are speed advantages to running C-based
languages, I also think it's important to point out that our accessible
games will likely not reach the constraints of what Python is capable of any
time in the near future. The boxing game I am currently developing updates
its calculations 250 times a second with absolutely no slow-down.
TW: Second, some of the APIs like
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hey Tom, Fair points both, and I can well understand one's bias toward a particular language. I myself am kindly disposed to Python if you hadn't noticed. For me it really came down to basic understanding. I hated having to write out a complex program to print hello world, especially when every book I read said things like Don't worry about the class and void stuff yet. We'll get to those in chapter 8. If we don't get to understand them immediately, why do we use them now? With Python, I just type print 'hello world' and I'm done. I love the fact that when I want to test health subtraction, I can just launch the shell with those particular methods and test them interactively. It's cut down on any number of semantic errors as a result. That said, I'm jealous of things like XNA that have all sorts of sound craziness that I don't have. I suppose I'll just have to port some open source libraries and use them myself. In the end, we're both making games, and I think that's the important part. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 1:02 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Hi Ryan, Smile. Just a couple of corrections. I think you misunderstood a couple of things I said. Plus I think I owe you somewhat of an apology too. RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can pick up the slack. Libraries like those found at http://hg.qwitter-client.net. It's also worth pointing out that all of these TW: I did not say it didn't have joystick support I said it does not support joysticks with force feedback. Big, big, big difference here. I'm well aware PyGame supports joysticks, as SDL does, but joystick support is very generic rather than advanced support. That's what I meant. RS: I'm going to come out directly and say that the previous statement is rather insulting. The language does not make the programmer, just as the tools don't make the carpenter. If you want to be a pro and write pro-level games, then learn to be a programmer and stick with what works for you. TW: My apologies.I didn't mean it to come out that way. I certainly didn't want to insult anyone. I just want to express my opinion as I see it. Coming from a CS background were we were instructed to use C++, Java, SQL, etc I'm really having troubles accepting Python as anything more thanan amateur/newby language used by script kiddies and programmer wannabes. Of course, I am well aware Python has been growing both in support and has been used to write a number of high-quality applications putting the lie to my personal opinions. In fact, the screen reader I'm using right now, Orca, was written in Python 2.6, and I'm certainly not complaining that Orca was written in Python. I actually don't care as long as it works and lets me read/write e-mail, use Open Office, browse the internet, etc. So in that respect I know Python is more than an amateur language used by real professionals. What can I say I'm biast. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ryan, Yeah, I understand. I mean it is taking me 10 times longer to write Mysteries of the Ancients than it would in something like Python simply because the language is so much more complex. When you think about how many braces, brackets, and other syntax goes into a standard C++ application it all adds up to extra time typing all of that where in Python you can just double space and start your new function without having to remember if you added enough right braces to the end of your function to properly terminate that block of code. All the same there are some things that just rilly turn me off about Python. For example, the way the Python developers decided somewhere a long the way not to use technical terminology and rename everything to be Python specific. As someone who was trained professionally in languages like C++, Java, etc it really gets me that instead of calling object serialization by its technical name they call it pickling. Instead of calling an array an array they have dictionaries, lists, toupals, etc which just seems weird to me. So that's one reason I said Python teaches people bad habits and would have to relearn terminology and things like that if they take up another language. Python tends to forsake the technical terminology, and other things a pro would learn in college in order to be more understandable to someone without the high priced education. I understand how calling an array a list or dictionary might be easier to grasp than a name such as an array, but the fact of the mmatter is they are technically arrays with a different name. Although, where they got the name pickling for object serialization I'll never know. Its a bit silly to my mind. Anyway, as you said we are both creating games and that is the important thing. In the end how you write it doesn't matter as long as it works. One advantage you have with Python that I don't have with C++ is cross-platform support. Since Python is primarily a runtime language most of your game will use modules like PyGame that wraps some native C++ library like SDL. Since you aren't bound to SDL directly you can install the pyc files and run them anywhere there is a compatible Python runtime and PyGame installation without recompiling. All the low-level stuff like native code is done by the C/C++ guys leaving you free to write your games without worrying about the APIs you are using. With C++ I have to recompile the game, and even sometimes modify sections of the program to compile it on a new target platform. However, since there usually are no handy third-party wrappers for things I usually get stuck using some sort of operating system specific code like SAPI, the Win32 API, DirectX, whatever meaning I have to do a lot of upgrading to support Mac/Linux. This is an issue I'm really trying to solve as it gets tiring rewriting this or that to support one operating system or the other. Most likely after MOTA is done I'll write some third-party wrappers for OS specific things meaning I can just include this or that library during compile time and forget it. Cheers! On 4/24/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Tom, Fair points both, and I can well understand one's bias toward a particular language. I myself am kindly disposed to Python if you hadn't noticed. For me it really came down to basic understanding. I hated having to write out a complex program to print hello world, especially when every book I read said things like Don't worry about the class and void stuff yet. We'll get to those in chapter 8. If we don't get to understand them immediately, why do we use them now? With Python, I just type print 'hello world' and I'm done. I love the fact that when I want to test health subtraction, I can just launch the shell with those particular methods and test them interactively. It's cut down on any number of semantic errors as a result. That said, I'm jealous of things like XNA that have all sorts of sound craziness that I don't have. I suppose I'll just have to port some open source libraries and use them myself. In the end, we're both making games, and I think that's the important part. Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Thomas. Just my two sens worth : I study computer sience and I'm currently third year. While we use c and java as our main development languages, python is a compulsary module too, simply because proof of concepts are so easy to program. Also doing tournaments like IT challenge or Google codeJam is much easier with python. As for braces, python has a similar issue with indentation, which I guess leads to better looking code, but I find annoying. On 4/24/11, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ryan, Yeah, I understand. I mean it is taking me 10 times longer to write Mysteries of the Ancients than it would in something like Python simply because the language is so much more complex. When you think about how many braces, brackets, and other syntax goes into a standard C++ application it all adds up to extra time typing all of that where in Python you can just double space and start your new function without having to remember if you added enough right braces to the end of your function to properly terminate that block of code. All the same there are some things that just rilly turn me off about Python. For example, the way the Python developers decided somewhere a long the way not to use technical terminology and rename everything to be Python specific. As someone who was trained professionally in languages like C++, Java, etc it really gets me that instead of calling object serialization by its technical name they call it pickling. Instead of calling an array an array they have dictionaries, lists, toupals, etc which just seems weird to me. So that's one reason I said Python teaches people bad habits and would have to relearn terminology and things like that if they take up another language. Python tends to forsake the technical terminology, and other things a pro would learn in college in order to be more understandable to someone without the high priced education. I understand how calling an array a list or dictionary might be easier to grasp than a name such as an array, but the fact of the mmatter is they are technically arrays with a different name. Although, where they got the name pickling for object serialization I'll never know. Its a bit silly to my mind. Anyway, as you said we are both creating games and that is the important thing. In the end how you write it doesn't matter as long as it works. One advantage you have with Python that I don't have with C++ is cross-platform support. Since Python is primarily a runtime language most of your game will use modules like PyGame that wraps some native C++ library like SDL. Since you aren't bound to SDL directly you can install the pyc files and run them anywhere there is a compatible Python runtime and PyGame installation without recompiling. All the low-level stuff like native code is done by the C/C++ guys leaving you free to write your games without worrying about the APIs you are using. With C++ I have to recompile the game, and even sometimes modify sections of the program to compile it on a new target platform. However, since there usually are no handy third-party wrappers for things I usually get stuck using some sort of operating system specific code like SAPI, the Win32 API, DirectX, whatever meaning I have to do a lot of upgrading to support Mac/Linux. This is an issue I'm really trying to solve as it gets tiring rewriting this or that to support one operating system or the other. Most likely after MOTA is done I'll write some third-party wrappers for OS specific things meaning I can just include this or that library during compile time and forget it. Cheers! On 4/24/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Tom, Fair points both, and I can well understand one's bias toward a particular language. I myself am kindly disposed to Python if you hadn't noticed. For me it really came down to basic understanding. I hated having to write out a complex program to print hello world, especially when every book I read said things like Don't worry about the class and void stuff yet. We'll get to those in chapter 8. If we don't get to understand them immediately, why do we use them now? With Python, I just type print 'hello world' and I'm done. I love the fact that when I want to test health subtraction, I can just launch the shell with those particular methods and test them interactively. It's cut down on any number of semantic errors as a result. That said, I'm jealous of things like XNA that have all sorts of sound craziness that I don't have. I suppose I'll just have to port some open source libraries and use them myself. In the end, we're both making games, and I think that's the important part. Ryan --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Coming from a traditional language background, I have had to do a lot of back-translation, lists/sequences/tuples to various arrays and the like, so I get where you are coming from Thomas. It's weird having three different data types that implement array-like behavior with teeny differences that are nonetheless critical to proper code writing. I still haven't figured out the purpose of tuples, and dictionaries look cool as heck but I can't figure out how to turn them into something I recognize, though I've looked at a number of examples of how to use them to create analogs to heaps, tree structures and things I'm used to from the Pascal/C world. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
well ryan Judging by your blog you are sertainly moving fast. I read you even made your own modules and package libs which is quite good. Most devs just download stuff and do the game. They may make one lib but that doesn't always mean several will come out during game development these take ages. That you can do what you did in 4 months I think is just crazy. I started my programming courses in javascript and pascal and never got the hang of it. I kept forgetting bits and dropping variables and values. There was a period where I loaded the entire dotnet language system and resource kits. being that it was 600mb per language loaded, and at that time then 4-5gb for express 2005, then about 2gb of resource kits for dx9, and sapi5, not to mention mdi math, and the directx8 system. And the manuals and all this before I started. Well one day I just thought not for me. Sertainly python is good if its done right. Nvda is made with python and in some cases its actually running closer to the core os using mostly system spaciffic libs with a few c libs of its own but not many. Sertainly python can't do everything but then a load of things need overlays and drivers and then libs to access the protected areas of the os to stop it crashing etc. Its why I decided to not bother with directx programming. I may eventually learn bgt since thats already a good language and is in my price range since opensource is free, and that is probably what I would end up doing if I did that anyway. So keep it up. At 04:00 a.m. 25/04/2011, you wrote: Hey Tom, Fair points both, and I can well understand one's bias toward a particular language. I myself am kindly disposed to Python if you hadn't noticed. For me it really came down to basic understanding. I hated having to write out a complex program to print hello world, especially when every book I read said things like Don't worry about the class and void stuff yet. We'll get to those in chapter 8. If we don't get to understand them immediately, why do we use them now? With Python, I just type print 'hello world' and I'm done. I love the fact that when I want to test health subtraction, I can just launch the shell with those particular methods and test them interactively. It's cut down on any number of semantic errors as a result. That said, I'm jealous of things like XNA that have all sorts of sound craziness that I don't have. I suppose I'll just have to port some open source libraries and use them myself. In the end, we're both making games, and I think that's the important part. Ryan -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 1:02 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Hi Ryan, Smile. Just a couple of corrections. I think you misunderstood a couple of things I said. Plus I think I owe you somewhat of an apology too. RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can pick up the slack. Libraries like those found at http://hg.qwitter-client.net. It's also worth pointing out that all of these TW: I did not say it didn't have joystick support I said it does not support joysticks with force feedback. Big, big, big difference here. I'm well aware PyGame supports joysticks, as SDL does, but joystick support is very generic rather than advanced support. That's what I meant. RS: I'm going to come out directly and say that the previous statement is rather insulting. The language does not make the programmer, just as the tools don't make the carpenter. If you want to be a pro and write pro-level games, then learn to be a programmer and stick with what works for you. TW: My apologies.I didn't mean it to come out that way. I certainly didn't want to insult anyone. I just want to express my opinion as I see it. Coming from a CS background were we were instructed to use C++, Java, SQL, etc I'm really having troubles accepting Python as anything more thanan amateur/newby language used by script kiddies and programmer wannabes. Of course, I am well aware Python has been growing both in support and has been used to write a number of high-quality applications putting the lie to my personal opinions. In fact, the screen reader I'm using right now, Orca, was written in Python 2.6, and I'm certainly not complaining that Orca was written in Python. I actually don't care as long as it works and lets me read/write e-mail, use Open Office, browse the internet, etc. So in that respect I know Python is more than an amateur language used by real professionals. What can I say I'm biast. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
and it all boils down to what we write no matter what language we use it all depends on what we want. There are even those that use autoit for games. Ok they are crappy but if all your stuff is just basic board style games maybe a few simple arcade then its probably fine. At 06:14 a.m. 25/04/2011, you wrote: Hi Thomas. Just my two sens worth : I study computer sience and I'm currently third year. While we use c and java as our main development languages, python is a compulsary module too, simply because proof of concepts are so easy to program. Also doing tournaments like IT challenge or Google codeJam is much easier with python. As for braces, python has a similar issue with indentation, which I guess leads to better looking code, but I find annoying. On 4/24/11, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Ryan, Yeah, I understand. I mean it is taking me 10 times longer to write Mysteries of the Ancients than it would in something like Python simply because the language is so much more complex. When you think about how many braces, brackets, and other syntax goes into a standard C++ application it all adds up to extra time typing all of that where in Python you can just double space and start your new function without having to remember if you added enough right braces to the end of your function to properly terminate that block of code. All the same there are some things that just rilly turn me off about Python. For example, the way the Python developers decided somewhere a long the way not to use technical terminology and rename everything to be Python specific. As someone who was trained professionally in languages like C++, Java, etc it really gets me that instead of calling object serialization by its technical name they call it pickling. Instead of calling an array an array they have dictionaries, lists, toupals, etc which just seems weird to me. So that's one reason I said Python teaches people bad habits and would have to relearn terminology and things like that if they take up another language. Python tends to forsake the technical terminology, and other things a pro would learn in college in order to be more understandable to someone without the high priced education. I understand how calling an array a list or dictionary might be easier to grasp than a name such as an array, but the fact of the mmatter is they are technically arrays with a different name. Although, where they got the name pickling for object serialization I'll never know. Its a bit silly to my mind. Anyway, as you said we are both creating games and that is the important thing. In the end how you write it doesn't matter as long as it works. One advantage you have with Python that I don't have with C++ is cross-platform support. Since Python is primarily a runtime language most of your game will use modules like PyGame that wraps some native C++ library like SDL. Since you aren't bound to SDL directly you can install the pyc files and run them anywhere there is a compatible Python runtime and PyGame installation without recompiling. All the low-level stuff like native code is done by the C/C++ guys leaving you free to write your games without worrying about the APIs you are using. With C++ I have to recompile the game, and even sometimes modify sections of the program to compile it on a new target platform. However, since there usually are no handy third-party wrappers for things I usually get stuck using some sort of operating system specific code like SAPI, the Win32 API, DirectX, whatever meaning I have to do a lot of upgrading to support Mac/Linux. This is an issue I'm really trying to solve as it gets tiring rewriting this or that to support one operating system or the other. Most likely after MOTA is done I'll write some third-party wrappers for OS specific things meaning I can just include this or that library during compile time and forget it. Cheers! On 4/24/11, Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com wrote: Hey Tom, Fair points both, and I can well understand one's bias toward a particular language. I myself am kindly disposed to Python if you hadn't noticed. For me it really came down to basic understanding. I hated having to write out a complex program to print hello world, especially when every book I read said things like Don't worry about the class and void stuff yet. We'll get to those in chapter 8. If we don't get to understand them immediately, why do we use them now? With Python, I just type print 'hello world' and I'm done. I love the fact that when I want to test health subtraction, I can just launch the shell with those particular methods and test them interactively. It's cut down on any number of semantic errors as a result. That said, I'm jealous of things like XNA that have all sorts of sound craziness that I don't have. I suppose I'll just have to port some open source libraries and use them myself. In the end,
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Willem, Yeah, i know. Python is very picky about indintation. Personally, I'd just ratherwrite the code and then run it through a program like indent to format it. That's often what I do with my C++ or Java applications. I write the app, make sure it is working, then use the indent tool for Linux to go in and format it so it looks formal and written according to formatting rules etc. With Python you absolutely have to indent as you go or you are in deep trouble in a hurry. It won't allow me to be lazy and slack off on formatting. However, you are write Python is good at prototyping things. That's honestly mostly what I use Python for myself. I'll go in, write a few blocks of code, and test them to see how it works before applying it to MOTA, Raceway, or anything I want to put my name on written in C++. Cheers! On 4/24/11, Willem Venter dwill...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Thomas. Just my two sens worth : I study computer sience and I'm currently third year. While we use c and java as our main development languages, python is a compulsary module too, simply because proof of concepts are so easy to program. Also doing tournaments like IT challenge or Google codeJam is much easier with python. As for braces, python has a similar issue with indentation, which I guess leads to better looking code, but I find annoying. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Chris, Yeah, that's exactly my problem as well. You spend x number of years learning languages like C, C++, Java, etc and you think you know it all and along comes Python having all these array types such as lists, dictionaries, sequences, etc all with miner differences and I can't figure out what exactly what I need or what equals what I already know. Its back translating sometimes from a more advanced concept to a less advanced one sometimes. this was always my gripe with languages like VB 6. For instance, in Java and C++ you can extend or inherit classes etdc. When using VB 6 its classes were more simplified and didn't have all the features of something like Java or C++. Its like, hay, I'm an advanced programmer here. Where is this or that feature I know exists in C++ but not VB 6? Same kind of issue applies with Python. Its not so much that the language is bad, but it has its own way of doing things that drives a triditionally trained programmer slightly nuts. Its like going back and relearning everything all over again, because Python seems to ignore things a C++ programmer takes for granted. They take away a concept I know such as arrays and replaces it with three or four new alternatives. Like why can't you guys just give me a basic array and be done with it? Cheers! On 4/24/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Coming from a traditional language background, I have had to do a lot of back-translation, lists/sequences/tuples to various arrays and the like, so I get where you are coming from Thomas. It's weird having three different data types that implement array-like behavior with teeny differences that are nonetheless critical to proper code writing. I still haven't figured out the purpose of tuples, and dictionaries look cool as heck but I can't figure out how to turn them into something I recognize, though I've looked at a number of examples of how to use them to create analogs to heaps, tree structures and things I'm used to from the Pascal/C world. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
HI Thomas, Something that has confused me is this: obviously I am not following what native binary means but if C++ is not a runtime language then why do you end up needing to have C++ runtime libraries on your system to run an application written in C++? Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Thomas Ward Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2011 12:27 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Hi Che, Well, I'm not saying/arguing that Python can't write a game as good as MOTA, but wanted to point out that there are some features you'll miss by using something like Python with PyGame.For instance, if you wanted to support force feedback devices PyGame currently doesn't have force feedback support. This may or may not be adeal braker for a game developer, but is something a new developer might want to be aware of. Other issues is advanced audio. Since PyGame uses SDL Mixer it has very very generic 3d audio support. For most games such as SoundRTS this is a non-issue.There are alternatives though such as PySonic, a wrapper for FMOD Ex, and PyOpenAL, a Python wrapper for OpenAL. Both have 3d audio support, but I'm not sure of the status of these Python wrappers. Thereis PySFML which wraps SFML and I know it is being maintained as v1.6 was released not long ago. So if you take in account these alternative game APIs a game like Shades of Doom is certainly possible with a few exceptions such as no force feedback support. The other issue I wanted to stress , which isn't as big an issue now as it use to be, is native code verses runtime code. There is no doubt that correctly native written code in C++ or assembly will run faster than any runtime language. However, I'm fully aware that not everyone is willing to learn something like C++. That's where the runtime languages like Python, Java, and .Net comes in handy as they are high-level languages meant to simplify programming for amateurs and professionals alike. I still believe if you have the skills that programming in pure C/C++ is the best option. However, if you can't or don't want to .Net, Java, and other runtime languages are getting close to native speeds by optomising the frameworks, and it helps that more and more systems with 3 GHZ processors are more common. The newer duel core systems have no problem executing runtime languages like Python, Java, or .Net because of improved CPU power. So you are definitely right that the points I raised about performance is quickly becoming less an issue than it use to be. I guess it all depends on what kinds of platforms you plan to support. So before I go I'd like to point out that I'm certainly not unbiast when it comes to programming languages. Like religeon and politics all of us have discovered languages that just works for us, languages we like, and it is part experience and part personal preference that that goes into what languages I recommend/support. I've always felt more at home with C-Style languages like C++, Java, Perl, C#.Net, etc so naturally its what I usually recommend. I've never taken to the languages like Python, and I frankly don't like them for a number of reasons. Both technical and personal. Just thought I should clarify where I stand. Cheers! On 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Tom,
As a budding game developer, I want to respond to your below email to paint
what I feel is a more accurate picture of the python language. I think there
are a few additional points everyone really should consider before jumping
headfirst into C#.net as I tried to, especially when that jump can meet with
some pretty spectacular failures.
I will proceed our statements and responses with initials.
TW: On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there
are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get up
and running with game programming. ... All of this makes Python look good on
the surface.
RS: This is exactly why Python *is* good, not just on the surface, but
deeper down. Imagine being able to program a game right out of the box that
will reach not only the Windows community, but the Mac community as well.
How many of you out there are Mac users who lament the fact that you don't
have any games to play on your computers because they've all been designed
for windows? Python can fix that for you.
Additionally, because Python is easier to learn, it's also easier to debug.
It's a given that programmers spend far more time reading their code than
they do writing it, and Python gives you the 1UP on that too. It's the
difference between
C#
void main(string[args])
{
System.Console.WriteLine(Hello world);
}
And Python:
print Hello world.
Even those of you who have never programmed a day in your life can see the
difference.
TW: On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an
interpreter or runtime environment to run.
RS: c# is compiled to MSIL, Microsoft Intermediate language. This is a type
of Byte code. In other words, C# is also Interpreted. If you want more on
the subject, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language
TW: ... if you are thinking about creating high performance games that have
to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run very
slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications like
Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like that you
really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most performance out
of your CPU power and memory.
RS: Python was considered slow when it was first conceived nearly twenty
years ago, back when engineers flatly rejected the idea that we could ever
break the 1 gigahertz threshold on a computer's processor. Today our
processors run far upwards of 1.0GHZ, and they often do it on multiple
cores.
While I will not dispute that there are speed advantages to running C-based
languages, I also think it's important to point out that our accessible
games will likely not reach the constraints of what Python is capable of any
time in the near future. The boxing game I am currently developing updates
its calculations 250 times a second with absolutely no slow-down.
TW: Second, some of the APIs like PyGame aren't the best APIs available for
game developers. PyGame is decent if you are going to produce a football
game like Jim's NFL, Star Trek Final Conflict, or something like that ...
RS: What about Sound RTS? That's far more advanced than either of those
games.
TW: but if you are thinking of something like Shades of Doom or Mysteries of
the Ancients forget it. ... If you want only keyboard access PyGame is fine,
but if you want advanced Joystick support like force feedback and things
like that again no go. PyGame just doesn't have that kind of support yet.
RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And
while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can
pick up the slack. Libraries like those found at
http://hg.qwitter-client.net. It's also worth pointing out that all of these
libraries, like the Python language itself, are free to use. Developers
don't have to shell out any expense for third party libraries or the
development environment itself, for that matter.
TW: Finally, there is the issue of using Python as a springboard to other
programming languages. ... The problem is that you are going to have to
start over from scratch if you use Python and switch to Java, C#, C++,
whatever because you didn't learn much as it relates to other programming
languages. In fact, it has been my personal opinion for a long time Python
teaches programmers bad habits that make it difficult to adapt to other
languages later on.
RS: You're welcome to your personal opinion, but I want to give a few others
for sake of balance:
Peter Norvig is an American computer scientist. He is currently the Director
of Research (formerly Director of Search Quality) at Google Inc. He writes:
Several people have asked what programming language they should learn first.
There is no one answer, but consider these points:
Use your friends. When asked what operating system should I use, Windows,
Unix, or Mac?, my answer is usually: use whatever your friends use. The
advantage you get
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
It just occurred to me that the mailman software that runs this list is also
written in Python.
-Original Message-
From: Ryan Strunk [mailto:ryan.str...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:01 AM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: RE: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Tom,
As a budding game developer, I want to respond to your below email to
paint what I feel is a more accurate picture of the python language. I
think there are a few additional points everyone really should consider
before jumping headfirst into C#.net as I tried to, especially when that
jump can meet with some pretty spectacular failures.
I will proceed our statements and responses with initials.
TW: On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there
are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get
up and running with game programming. ... All of this makes Python look
good on the surface.
RS: This is exactly why Python *is* good, not just on the surface, but
deeper down. Imagine being able to program a game right out of the box
that will reach not only the Windows community, but the Mac community as
well. How many of you out there are Mac users who lament the fact that you
don't have any games to play on your computers because they've all been
designed for windows? Python can fix that for you.
Additionally, because Python is easier to learn, it's also easier to
debug. It's a given that programmers spend far more time reading their
code than they do writing it, and Python gives you the 1UP on that too.
It's the difference between
C#
void main(string[args])
{
System.Console.WriteLine(Hello world);
}
And Python:
print Hello world.
Even those of you who have never programmed a day in your life can see the
difference.
TW: On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an
interpreter or runtime environment to run.
RS: c# is compiled to MSIL, Microsoft Intermediate language. This is a
type of Byte code. In other words, C# is also Interpreted. If you want
more on the subject, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language
TW: ... if you are thinking about creating high performance games that
have to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run
very slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications
like Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like
that you really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most
performance out of your CPU power and memory.
RS: Python was considered slow when it was first conceived nearly twenty
years ago, back when engineers flatly rejected the idea that we could ever
break the 1 gigahertz threshold on a computer's processor. Today our
processors run far upwards of 1.0GHZ, and they often do it on multiple
cores.
While I will not dispute that there are speed advantages to running
C-based languages, I also think it's important to point out that our
accessible games will likely not reach the constraints of what Python is
capable of any time in the near future. The boxing game I am currently
developing updates its calculations 250 times a second with absolutely no
slow-down.
TW: Second, some of the APIs like PyGame aren't the best APIs available
for game developers. PyGame is decent if you are going to produce a
football game like Jim's NFL, Star Trek Final Conflict, or something like
that ...
RS: What about Sound RTS? That's far more advanced than either of those
games.
TW: but if you are thinking of something like Shades of Doom or Mysteries
of the Ancients forget it. ... If you want only keyboard access PyGame is
fine, but if you want advanced Joystick support like force feedback and
things like that again no go. PyGame just doesn't have that kind of
support yet.
RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And
while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can
pick up the slack. Libraries like those found at
http://hg.qwitter-client.net. It's also worth pointing out that all of
these libraries, like the Python language itself, are free to use.
Developers don't have to shell out any expense for third party libraries
or the development environment itself, for that matter.
TW: Finally, there is the issue of using Python as a springboard to other
programming languages. ... The problem is that you are going to have to
start over from scratch if you use Python and switch to Java, C#, C++,
whatever because you didn't learn much as it relates to other programming
languages. In fact, it has been my personal opinion for a long time Python
teaches programmers bad habits that make it difficult to adapt to other
languages later on.
RS: You're welcome to your personal opinion, but I want to give a few
others for sake of balance:
Peter Norvig is an American computer scientist. He is currently the
Director of Research (formerly Director of Search Quality) at Google Inc
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Wow! Well-done Ryan! You must have spent all day writing that!
I'm just learning Python myself, and my intention is to pick up some of the
slack in NVDA. I'm starting out with simple things, like learning to move
the focus to specific coordinates to make apps like Paltalk easier to use.
Later I'd like to learn how to get it to recognize graphics, and label those
graphics like I used to in Jaws. After that, I might start taking Moosik
apart and rewrite for the new python libraries, since I really want more
games to play with my sighted kids, but that's way beyond my abilities at
this point.
I still think that speed is a major issue though. Have you tried playing
SoundRTS on the big maps, with 4 or 5 computer opponents? My computer just
can't do it.
Other than that though, there are a lot of things I like about python,
especially its interactivity and load time. NVDA can shut down and restart
in just under two seconds, and Moosik doesn't take much longer.
Ken Downey
The Addictor
www.TheAddictor.com
- Original Message -
From: Ryan Strunk ryan.str...@gmail.com
To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Tom,
As a budding game developer, I want to respond to your below email to
paint
what I feel is a more accurate picture of the python language. I think
there
are a few additional points everyone really should consider before jumping
headfirst into C#.net as I tried to, especially when that jump can meet
with
some pretty spectacular failures.
I will proceed our statements and responses with initials.
TW: On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there
are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get
up
and running with game programming. ... All of this makes Python look good
on
the surface.
RS: This is exactly why Python *is* good, not just on the surface, but
deeper down. Imagine being able to program a game right out of the box
that
will reach not only the Windows community, but the Mac community as well.
How many of you out there are Mac users who lament the fact that you don't
have any games to play on your computers because they've all been designed
for windows? Python can fix that for you.
Additionally, because Python is easier to learn, it's also easier to
debug.
It's a given that programmers spend far more time reading their code than
they do writing it, and Python gives you the 1UP on that too. It's the
difference between
C#
void main(string[args])
{
System.Console.WriteLine(Hello world);
}
And Python:
print Hello world.
Even those of you who have never programmed a day in your life can see the
difference.
TW: On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an
interpreter or runtime environment to run.
RS: c# is compiled to MSIL, Microsoft Intermediate language. This is a
type
of Byte code. In other words, C# is also Interpreted. If you want more on
the subject, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Intermediate_Language
TW: ... if you are thinking about creating high performance games that
have
to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run very
slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications like
Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like that
you
really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most performance
out
of your CPU power and memory.
RS: Python was considered slow when it was first conceived nearly twenty
years ago, back when engineers flatly rejected the idea that we could ever
break the 1 gigahertz threshold on a computer's processor. Today our
processors run far upwards of 1.0GHZ, and they often do it on multiple
cores.
While I will not dispute that there are speed advantages to running
C-based
languages, I also think it's important to point out that our accessible
games will likely not reach the constraints of what Python is capable of
any
time in the near future. The boxing game I am currently developing updates
its calculations 250 times a second with absolutely no slow-down.
TW: Second, some of the APIs like PyGame aren't the best APIs available
for
game developers. PyGame is decent if you are going to produce a football
game like Jim's NFL, Star Trek Final Conflict, or something like that ...
RS: What about Sound RTS? That's far more advanced than either of those
games.
TW: but if you are thinking of something like Shades of Doom or Mysteries
of
the Ancients forget it. ... If you want only keyboard access PyGame is
fine,
but if you want advanced Joystick support like force feedback and things
like that again no go. PyGame just doesn't have that kind of support yet.
RS: PyGame does have joystick support. It has mouse support as well. And
while the sound mixer may be lacking, there are other libraries that can
pick up the slack. Libraries like those
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hello Thomas and Ryan. I do note that Ryan is correct insofar as a number of CS programs appear to be experimenting with Python for their basic algorithm classes because of its directness and interactive nature. I'm unqualified to weigh in on the technical debate except to note that Qwitter and NVDA may not be comparable in complexity of resource usage to a high-performance audio game. It does look like there are alternate (better?) sound libraries available, but I'm not even to the point of sound design at this time, as I'm de-rustifying programming chops that are twenty years old and predate the prevalence of object-oriented programming. I get the basic intent of OO, but have never done it extensively, so there's a learning curve. Python class usage appears much simpler than C++ and the like. My biggest problem is wrapping my brain around a language without overt usage of pointers, something I got really good at back when rocks were soft. Anyway, I don't want to get into a detailed technical discussion on a games list as it's now definitely headed off topic. Perhaps I should sign up for the blind programmer's list. Anyone have the subscription address? On a related note, if you have any web-based resources for learning how to code AIs, I'd be interested to learn more about how folk have done that. Christopher Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient and dedicated developer. No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter. If your skills suck, it won't matter. If your dedication sucks, it won't matter. The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part, learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic, and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or any other language for that matter. I want to reiterate, this post isn't here to flame anyone else, but I know a lot of you guys on list here follow thomas' posts closely, and as a fellow quote unquote professional developer, I just think he is dead wrong about the downside of python, and I would hate to see someone not use python because they have heard it can't do what they want. check the programming options out yourself, and make a balanced opinion for what works for you, your idea and implementation will be the reason your game succeeds or fails, not the language you choose. Lord knows, we need as many creative game developers out there as we can get for the audio game community, and no matter what you use to create it, if its fun and engaging, I for one will buy it, I don't care if you program it with punch cards, grin. Thanks for listening, Che Developer,- Blind Adrenaline Simulations --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
AMEN Che! I agree 100% --- On Sat, 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t To: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:17 PM As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient and dedicated developer. No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter. If your skills suck, it won't matter. If your dedication sucks, it won't matter. The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part, learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic, and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or any other language for that matter. I want to reiterate, this post isn't here to flame anyone else, but I know a lot of you guys on list here follow thomas' posts closely, and as a fellow quote unquote professional developer, I just think he is dead wrong about the downside of python, and I would hate to see someone not use python because they have heard it can't do what they want. check the programming options out yourself, and make a balanced opinion for what works for you, your idea and implementation will be the reason your game succeeds or fails, not the language you choose. Lord knows, we need as many creative game developers out there as we can get for the audio game community, and no matter what you use to create it, if its fun and engaging, I for one will buy it, I don't care if you program it with punch cards, grin. Thanks for listening, Che Developer,- Blind Adrenaline Simulations --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
same here! - Original Message - From: Jeremy Kaldobsky jer...@kaldobsky.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t AMEN Che! I agree 100% --- On Sat, 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: From: Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t To: The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com, Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Date: Saturday, April 23, 2011, 9:17 PM As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other program for that matter is being an inventive, efficient and dedicated developer. No matter what language you use, if your idea sucks, it won't matter. If your skills suck, it won't matter. If your dedication sucks, it won't matter. The skills learned by teaching yourself a language such as python will carry over to any other language, picking up the syntax is the easy part, learning how to efficiently make code do what you want, that’s the magic, and learning to think that way will be greatly advanced by using python or any other language for that matter. I want to reiterate, this post isn't here to flame anyone else, but I know a lot of you guys on list here follow thomas' posts closely, and as a fellow quote unquote professional developer, I just think he is dead wrong about the downside of python, and I would hate to see someone not use python because they have heard it can't do what they want. check the programming options out yourself, and make a balanced opinion for what works for you, your idea and implementation will be the reason your game succeeds or fails, not the language you choose. Lord knows, we need as many creative game developers out there as we can get for the audio game community, and no matter what you use to create it, if its fun and engaging, I for one will buy it, I don't care if you program it with punch cards, grin. Thanks for listening, Che Developer,- Blind Adrenaline Simulations --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
In the interests of expressing my feelings on the responses and heading off any possibility of the discussion turning unpleasant, I for one am grateful for Thomas' post, as I am for Ryan's and Chee's. As someone who is coming back to all this after a very long hiatus, I'm pleased to get opinions from various perspectives. The practical answer to all this is that I am extremely unlikely to ever dive back into C++ or J++ or anything of the sort. I am far more likely to do something in Python, about which I am rather excited as it's unlike the several other languages I worked with back before oxygen was liberated from the crust. (Insert joke about having to compute uphill in the snow, both ways, here.) As such, I'm probably going to devote considerable time and effort into learning the language for projects of various sorts, which may well include something for all of you. So, to drag this thread back to the original intent, if any of you have resources to post that I haven't found already, please let me know. And again, thank you for all the other discussion. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Ken, Well,honestly I'm not exactly in favor of visual Basic .Net for gaming simply because the documentation isn't there. Most of the APIs available for .Net like SDL, Managed DirectX, XNA, and SlimDX all assume you know and use C#.net. Therefore all of the sample programs and documentation is aimed towards a C#.net developer rather than a VB.net developer. If you are starting out programming you might as well bite the bullet and take up C#.net rather than VB.net simply for the documentation alone. Especially, as you just pointed out you are better at looking atsample code than reading manuals. Another reason I would recommend C#.net over VB.net is because C#.net is supported on non-Windows platforms like Linux and Mac OS via Mono. This means you could in theory write some cross-platform games simply by using C#.net, Monodevelop, and SDL.net. I think it is important new developers are aware of this possibility/option. Finally, Monodevelop is a totally free and open source C#.net IDE for Mac, Linux, and Windows. Its fully accessible, and unlike Microsoft's Visual Studio Express they don't cut out features just because it is free. With Visual Studio Microsoft has yanked out a number of features you really need such as the ability to cross-compile between 32-bit and 64-bit platforms, and instead gives you a generic any CPU option that doesn't necessarily work on any CPU. With Mono you can compile for 32-bit Intel processors, target AMD 64-bit processors, compile for Itanium processors, etc which means you can optomise the code directly for the target platform where Visual Studio Express doesn't. Which means if you want all the features in Microsoft's C#.net compiler you have to buy it where Monodevelop is free. That said, there are a few disadvantages of Mono I'd like to point out to be fair. Since Mono is being driven using an open source model they run behind the current Microsoft .Net Framework and are usually a good version or two behind. For instance, I believe Mono is now compatible with .Net 3.0 and of course Windows 7 ships with .Net 4.0. That's not necessarily a bad thing if your focus is maximum compatibility with a large number of target platforms and machines, but would be if there is some new library or feature of .Net 4.0 you really wanted. Another downside, which isn't a big issue for me, is compatibility with comercial APIs. If you want to include an open source game API like SDL, SFML, or SlimDX Mono is always pretty compatible with the open source APIs as many open source devs are using Mono rather than Microsoft's .net. However, if you wanted to install and use something like Microsoft's XNA Framework then you might run into compatibility issues since Microsoft, as usual, only developed it with their proprietary .Net platform in mind. However, since XNA is pretty unaccessible with screen readers anyway its not a huge loss if Mono doesn't support the latest and greatest XNA. As far as documentation, sample code, I'll see what I can do. I think .Net via Mono is a better option than Python, and I'm well aware of the fact not everyone wants to take on a full blown language like C++. Converting a few simple games like Chopper Patrol to C#.net and SDL shouldn't be a big problem. Inf act, it might be fun eaching C#.net and cross-platform programming at the same time is a good thing right? Cheers! On 4/22/11, The Addictor kenwdow...@neo.rr.com wrote: Hey Tom, I'm just about to bite the bullet in regards to learning one of the .net languages, maybe even c#. What I need to get started is a really easy game--maybe not even a whole game. How about a program that makes a helicopter fly around, a bit like Heli, but without the other complexities. I'm not good at learning from manuals, but I'm great at learning by taking apart a game and figuring out how it works, so if someone could write a real simple game like that, preferably in vb.net--but I'll take c#.net if I have to, I'll learn it. Once I see how everything is set up--you know, the basics, then I can incorporate what the manuals teach and start writing code--I just seem to need a boost. I remember how daunting vb6 was, but then Justin's sample game came out--and voila! Enemy attack was on the scene in a few weeks, then my other games. Any suggestions or thoughts? Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Chris, All I can say is best of luck. Although, Python might look simple its proving to be an incredably powerful programming language as a whole. To date I can name two fully feature screen readers NVDA and Orca written in pure Python. There are a few accessible games like SoundRTS as well as many mainstream games written in Python. There are general applications from general scripts all the way up to fully featured apps like podcatcher software written in Python. Its certainly worth looking at if the C-Style languages turns you off. Cheers! On 4/23/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: In the interests of expressing my feelings on the responses and heading off any possibility of the discussion turning unpleasant, I for one am grateful for Thomas' post, as I am for Ryan's and Chee's. As someone who is coming back to all this after a very long hiatus, I'm pleased to get opinions from various perspectives. The practical answer to all this is that I am extremely unlikely to ever dive back into C++ or J++ or anything of the sort. I am far more likely to do something in Python, about which I am rather excited as it's unlike the several other languages I worked with back before oxygen was liberated from the crust. (Insert joke about having to compute uphill in the snow, both ways, here.) As such, I'm probably going to devote considerable time and effort into learning the language for projects of various sorts, which may well include something for all of you. So, to drag this thread back to the original intent, if any of you have resources to post that I haven't found already, please let me know. And again, thank you for all the other discussion. Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Che, Well, I'm not saying/arguing that Python can't write a game as good as MOTA, but wanted to point out that there are some features you'll miss by using something like Python with PyGame.For instance, if you wanted to support force feedback devices PyGame currently doesn't have force feedback support. This may or may not be adeal braker for a game developer, but is something a new developer might want to be aware of. Other issues is advanced audio. Since PyGame uses SDL Mixer it has very very generic 3d audio support. For most games such as SoundRTS this is a non-issue.There are alternatives though such as PySonic, a wrapper for FMOD Ex, and PyOpenAL, a Python wrapper for OpenAL. Both have 3d audio support, but I'm not sure of the status of these Python wrappers. Thereis PySFML which wraps SFML and I know it is being maintained as v1.6 was released not long ago. So if you take in account these alternative game APIs a game like Shades of Doom is certainly possible with a few exceptions such as no force feedback support. The other issue I wanted to stress , which isn't as big an issue now as it use to be, is native code verses runtime code. There is no doubt that correctly native written code in C++ or assembly will run faster than any runtime language. However, I'm fully aware that not everyone is willing to learn something like C++. That's where the runtime languages like Python, Java, and .Net comes in handy as they are high-level languages meant to simplify programming for amateurs and professionals alike. I still believe if you have the skills that programming in pure C/C++ is the best option. However, if you can't or don't want to .Net, Java, and other runtime languages are getting close to native speeds by optomising the frameworks, and it helps that more and more systems with 3 GHZ processors are more common. The newer duel core systems have no problem executing runtime languages like Python, Java, or .Net because of improved CPU power. So you are definitely right that the points I raised about performance is quickly becoming less an issue than it use to be. I guess it all depends on what kinds of platforms you plan to support. So before I go I'd like to point out that I'm certainly not unbiast when it comes to programming languages. Like religeon and politics all of us have discovered languages that just works for us, languages we like, and it is part experience and part personal preference that that goes into what languages I recommend/support. I've always felt more at home with C-Style languages like C++, Java, Perl, C#.Net, etc so naturally its what I usually recommend. I've never taken to the languages like Python, and I frankly don't like them for a number of reasons. Both technical and personal. Just thought I should clarify where I stand. Cheers! On 4/23/11, Che blindadrenal...@gmail.com wrote: As a developer that looked into many programming options before making my choice, I feel the need to respond to this thread in order to possibly prevent other potential programmers from being angled away from python based on thomases post. I rarely post to list here, but I do check in from time to time, so please don't take my lack of posts as any indication that I don't stay in tune with the community I partially serve. I realize thomas is seen as a voice of authority here on list, but I think on this subject, he is very very wrong. Thomas has put down other programming languages before as well, such as VB 6 for being outdated, etc. but I say let the work stand for itself. look at what jim kitchen and David Greenwood have done with vb 6, regarding python, look at sound RTS, or qwittter, on and on. To say python is only for amateur programmers is ridiculous to be sure. Also, I have to question thomases authority on this subject, as he has yet to release a game for profit, so up to this point, he is by definition an amateur programmer himself. I realize MOTA will be sold for a profit, and Thomas has collected money for pre sales, but to this point, no final product has ben released for commercial sale, thus seriously diluting his point about professional development with python in my opinion, especially considering the vast number of projects out there that have been released for a profit using python. This post isn't to flame on Thomas, he has worked hard on his games, most very especially MOTA, but for him to crap on python on this list given the attention his posts receive is irresponsible and not well thought out in my opinion. From what I've seen and tested, I don't think python would have any trouble running MOTA, or most any other audio game out there, given current system specs. And I am not talking out of my rear end here either. I've done one of the most complex audio games out there with Rail Racer, I know what I speak of. But to me, the most important things involved in creating a good audio game, or any other
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Chris, Yeah, there are better sound libraries available for Python. As I mentioned in a prior e-mail there is an open source Python wrapper for FMOD Ex called PySonic. Last time I checked PySonic hadn't been updated for ages and isn't compatible with current versions of FMOD though. There is a Python wrapper for OpenAL-Soft called PyOpenAL, but again I haven't kept up with that project since I don't really use Python much. There is also a Python wrapper for SFML called PySFML and I do know that is up to date.The only drawback with PySFML is that currently it blue screens on Windows XP do to video card driver compatibility issues. I wish they'd fix that, as I'd love to use SFML as part of my game engine. Anyway, there are better alternatives than PyGame available out there for Python. Cheers! On 4/23/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Thomas and Ryan. I do note that Ryan is correct insofar as a number of CS programs appear to be experimenting with Python for their basic algorithm classes because of its directness and interactive nature. I'm unqualified to weigh in on the technical debate except to note that Qwitter and NVDA may not be comparable in complexity of resource usage to a high-performance audio game. It does look like there are alternate (better?) sound libraries available, but I'm not even to the point of sound design at this time, as I'm de-rustifying programming chops that are twenty years old and predate the prevalence of object-oriented programming. I get the basic intent of OO, but have never done it extensively, so there's a learning curve. Python class usage appears much simpler than C++ and the like. My biggest problem is wrapping my brain around a language without overt usage of pointers, something I got really good at back when rocks were soft. Anyway, I don't want to get into a detailed technical discussion on a games list as it's now definitely headed off topic. Perhaps I should sign up for the blind programmer's list. Anyone have the subscription address? On a related note, if you have any web-based resources for learning how to code AIs, I'd be interested to learn more about how folk have done that. Christopher Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Thomas. I'm actually not a newbie programmer, and have a very good grounding in the over-arching concepts of algorithm development and language structure. I did it for a living a long time ago. I may be wrong about this, but from what I've gleaned from my survey of available docs, it looks as though one can actually create compiled code from python scripts, including actual full-blown executables. Now I don't know if they produce code that runs in comparable time to executables produced by C++ etc. It also looks as though with recent versions there are good hooks into various OS APIs for low-level operations that might reduce the performance problems of Python. This is speculative on my part as one major reason I never got back into programming was the learning curve of the Windows interface and never finding anything that actually spelled out how to use it in a way that didn't eat my brain. As for my goals, well, I'm not sure. I'm interested more in strategic level games than something like Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the Ancients. I'm fascinating by the process of developing enemy AIs, something I never learned, and various ways of teaching them to be better opponents. I want to get to grips with the language itself, (am going through the tutorials with version 3.2) and then begin incorporating windows-specific constructions to learn how to construct good interfaces for us. Once I have a better handle on what the language can do, I'll have a better sense of what I want to do with it. Please know that I respect your experience as an actual developer, and appreciate you taking the time to express your concerns. Looks to me as though Python teaches *different* bad habits than C++, which I have come to cordially despise. *smile* Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Chris, Thanks for explaining that. I wasn't really certain of your past experience, or what your goals were, so to speak, so I just gave you the standard overview I would give anyone when asking about Python. Here is some information that might answer some questions and might help you with python. As for compiling executables with Python yes that is possible. There is a program called py2exe that essentually creates a Windows executable for you. What it does is it compiles or packs all of your pyc files into a *.exe file and then copies the necessary Python pyd libraries to your directory. This makes it into a stand alone executable, but at considerable bloat as you have to install the Python runtime with every program you compile as those pyd libraries are necessary for that *.exe file to run. As far as runtime performance goes there is some advantage in speed compiling at as a *.exe file as it byte compiles some of the code. It is certainly faster than running a standard *.py script would be. However, since its not true native code its not as fast as true C/C++ or assembly code would be. However, as you seam to be interested in turn-based strategy games etc this wouldn't be such a problem for you I don't think. SoundRTS is ritten in pure Python and works well enough. As for various APIs etc yes there are a lot of Python wrappers/hooks for most things on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Python certainly is growing in support, but most of those are for Python 2.6 and 2.7 current. I see here you are using the 3.2 runtime which I don't recommend using yet as its not well supported yet. If I were you I'd use Python 2.7 as that is the current version of Python, and what many of the 2.x APIs are being updated to support right now. Especially, if you want to write games. For example, PyGame which I mentioned earlier. The last version I have is for Python 2.6 and I hear they are coming out with a version for Python 2.7. In fact, the next release of Ubuntu Linux, 11.04, is now shipping with 2.7 by default, and will have the new version of PyGame for Python 2.7 installed. I know your focus is most likely on Windows development here, but my purpose of mentioning what Ubuntu Linux is using is merely to point out what the industry as a whole is using. If you rush ahead and start developing using bleeding edge Python such as 3.2 you aren't going to be able to get a hold of all of the APIs you need/want right now and may have to end updating and compiling them manually. Plus if you ever want to create cross-platform games, which you certainly could do using Python, you'd have to use the version Mac and Linux are using which is not always the latest and greatest available on the Python website. As far as the Windows API etc goes I know that feeling all too well. Microsoft never was very good at explaining things in something a person could clearly understand. If you look at the DirectX 9.0C sample source code it is a case in point. They have classes, that wrap classes, that wraps more classes, that wraps DirectX, etc so much that you don't have any idea what is necessary and what is just fluff. You practically have to follow the dchain of development from beginning to end and maybe if your lucky you might figure out what in heck Microsoft is talking about. Lol! Its for that reason why I really began using .Net professionally. The Microsoft .Net Framework is a lot better documented than the low-level C++ APIs for Windows, and a whole lot easier to learn. It uses a pure object orientd approach which is nice, and languages like C# .Net, called C-Sharp, is a very stripped down and much simplar version of C++. More like Java in a way. Plus its cross-platform via Mono so I'm pretty happy with the .Net sweet of languages myself. Anyway, as far as programming artificial intelligence that's a pretty advanced field in and of itself. There are entire books on just one aspect of it such as fuzzy logic. I usually don't use that advanced a method in my games, at least I haven't yet, but the more advanced you get into it the more realistic your bots will become in games. A lot of time it just comes down to writing a set of logical instructions for the bot to try and attempt like if this hhappens try this, if that happens try that, and if something else happens try the other thing. This works, but will become predictable after a while. That's where fuzzy logic will become so much nicer as it won't be nearly as predictable or easy to guess what its going to try next. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hey Tom, I'm just about to bite the bullet in regards to learning one of the .net languages, maybe even c#. What I need to get started is a really easy game--maybe not even a whole game. How about a program that makes a helicopter fly around, a bit like Heli, but without the other complexities. I'm not good at learning from manuals, but I'm great at learning by taking apart a game and figuring out how it works, so if someone could write a real simple game like that, preferably in vb.net--but I'll take c#.net if I have to, I'll learn it. Once I see how everything is set up--you know, the basics, then I can incorporate what the manuals teach and start writing code--I just seem to need a boost. I remember how daunting vb6 was, but then Justin's sample game came out--and voila! Enemy attack was on the scene in a few weeks, then my other games. Any suggestions or thoughts? Ken Downey The Addictor www.TheAddictor.com - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, April 22, 2011 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Hi Chris, Thanks for explaining that. I wasn't really certain of your past experience, or what your goals were, so to speak, so I just gave you the standard overview I would give anyone when asking about Python. Here is some information that might answer some questions and might help you with python. As for compiling executables with Python yes that is possible. There is a program called py2exe that essentually creates a Windows executable for you. What it does is it compiles or packs all of your pyc files into a *.exe file and then copies the necessary Python pyd libraries to your directory. This makes it into a stand alone executable, but at considerable bloat as you have to install the Python runtime with every program you compile as those pyd libraries are necessary for that *.exe file to run. As far as runtime performance goes there is some advantage in speed compiling at as a *.exe file as it byte compiles some of the code. It is certainly faster than running a standard *.py script would be. However, since its not true native code its not as fast as true C/C++ or assembly code would be. However, as you seam to be interested in turn-based strategy games etc this wouldn't be such a problem for you I don't think. SoundRTS is ritten in pure Python and works well enough. As for various APIs etc yes there are a lot of Python wrappers/hooks for most things on Windows, Linux, and Mac. Python certainly is growing in support, but most of those are for Python 2.6 and 2.7 current. I see here you are using the 3.2 runtime which I don't recommend using yet as its not well supported yet. If I were you I'd use Python 2.7 as that is the current version of Python, and what many of the 2.x APIs are being updated to support right now. Especially, if you want to write games. For example, PyGame which I mentioned earlier. The last version I have is for Python 2.6 and I hear they are coming out with a version for Python 2.7. In fact, the next release of Ubuntu Linux, 11.04, is now shipping with 2.7 by default, and will have the new version of PyGame for Python 2.7 installed. I know your focus is most likely on Windows development here, but my purpose of mentioning what Ubuntu Linux is using is merely to point out what the industry as a whole is using. If you rush ahead and start developing using bleeding edge Python such as 3.2 you aren't going to be able to get a hold of all of the APIs you need/want right now and may have to end updating and compiling them manually. Plus if you ever want to create cross-platform games, which you certainly could do using Python, you'd have to use the version Mac and Linux are using which is not always the latest and greatest available on the Python website. As far as the Windows API etc goes I know that feeling all too well. Microsoft never was very good at explaining things in something a person could clearly understand. If you look at the DirectX 9.0C sample source code it is a case in point. They have classes, that wrap classes, that wraps more classes, that wraps DirectX, etc so much that you don't have any idea what is necessary and what is just fluff. You practically have to follow the dchain of development from beginning to end and maybe if your lucky you might figure out what in heck Microsoft is talking about. Lol! Its for that reason why I really began using .Net professionally. The Microsoft .Net Framework is a lot better documented than the low-level C++ APIs for Windows, and a whole lot easier to learn. It uses a pure object orientd approach which is nice, and languages like C# .Net, called C-Sharp, is a very stripped down and much simplar version of C++. More like Java in a way. Plus its cross-platform via Mono so I'm pretty happy with the .Net sweet of languages myself. Anyway, as far as programming artificial
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
The tutorial in the helpfile is a good place to start. Also just running the interpreter and typing commands is - a good way to learn Original Message - From: Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:20 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Yes. I'm looking for something that addresses creation of traditional data structures, or tells me about how Python does them better. For instance for game creation, one needs an efficient way of grouping game data into objects that control in-game things like characters, ships, terrain, etc. I see some ways of doing these things, but not knowing about Python's code optimization strategy, I don't know which are most efficient and which are easiest to write in the language. I've looked at a fair bit of the tutorial and done some specific searching. Are any of the typical resources available in accessible formats other than e-books? Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Willem Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:37 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t The tutorial in the helpfile is a good place to start. Also just running the interpreter and typing commands is - a good way to learn Original Message - From: Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:20 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Try python.org At 03:20 PM 4/21/2011, you wrote: Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
On 4/21/2011 3:20 PM, Christopher Bartlett wrote: Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Hello, I know that there is a big zip file from the empowerment zone website. It contains a whole lot of documentation on python. I cant remember the exact link to download it though. Iam sorry. Greg W. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Just what is on the web and they do it in modules so look at game.pi At 05:52 PM 4/21/2011, you wrote: Yes. I'm looking for something that addresses creation of traditional data structures, or tells me about how Python does them better. For instance for game creation, one needs an efficient way of grouping game data into objects that control in-game things like characters, ships, terrain, etc. I see some ways of doing these things, but not knowing about Python's code optimization strategy, I don't know which are most efficient and which are easiest to write in the language. I've looked at a fair bit of the tutorial and done some specific searching. Are any of the typical resources available in accessible formats other than e-books? Chris Bartlett -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Willem Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 2:37 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t The tutorial in the helpfile is a good place to start. Also just running the interpreter and typing commands is - a good way to learn Original Message - From: Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 9:20 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. Tim trouble Never offend people with style when you can offend them with substance. --Sam Brown Blindeudora list owner. To subscribe or info: http://www.freelists.org/webpage/blindeudora --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Greetings Christopher et al. Here's the link to the aforementioned file on Python from The Empowerment Zone. I cannot, however, vouch for the viability of the content, since I neither use nor plan to use Python. http://www.empowermentzone.com/pyth_doc.zip Kai - Original Message - From: Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 12:20 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some proper resources to learn from. So, to those of you who program out there, if any of you use Python, can you steer me to resources where I can learn the language, and get some nudges on algorithm development? The possible pay-off is that I may end up throwing my hat into the games blind people can play development ring, and more devs is a good thing, right? Chris Bartlett --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Python resources, possibly somewhat o/t
Hi Christopher, Well, the nice thing about Python is there are a lot of online resources. Before you do anything I think you should read the free tutorials, wiki, etc over on www.python.org to get a beginner to intermediate education on Python. The tutorials/programming guides are written at a beginner level, and I highly recommend them for new programmers like yourself. Once you get some programming experience under your belt you might want to look at the PyGame website www.pygame.org which is a Python wrapper for LibSDL. This will get you started on game programming adding sounds, music, and event driven input to your projects. However, with that said a bit of wisdom/advice from an old hand at programming. I'm not sure what your expecations are here, but I'd like to point out some advantages and disadvantages you will encounter with the Python language. I hope to give you a somewhat realistic and balanced look at it from a gaming perspective. On the plus side Python is easy to learn, is cross-platform, and there are a number of simple APIs like PyGame available to help you quickly get up and running with game programming. Python is generally a scripting language, but it can design anything from a simple script all the way up to full blown applications. All of this makes Python look good on the surface. On the down side Python is still a runtime language that requires an interpreter or runtime environment to run. As a result if you are thinking about creating high performance games that have to update 40 to 60 times a second Python is going to exicute and run very slow. It was never designed to handle high performance applications like Shades of Doom, Mysteries of the Ancients, etc. For something like that you really need a triditional language like C++ to get the most performance out of your CPU power and memory. Second, some of the APIs like PyGame aren't the best APIs available for game developers. PyGame is decent if you are going to produce a football game like Jim's NFL, Star Trek Final Conflict, or something like that, but if you are thinking of something like Shades of Doom or Mysteries of the Ancients forget it. PyGame's audio API, SDL Mixer, doesn't have very realistic virtual 3d audio, doesn't really have any DSP effects to speak of, and there are certainly better alternatives out there for C/C++ programmers. If you want only keyboard access PyGame is fine, but if you want advanced Joystick support like force feedback and things like that again no go. PyGame just doesn't have that kind of support yet. Finally, there is the issue of using Python as a springboard to other programming languages. I don't know about your plans so I'm just shooting from the hip here, but a lot of people want to try Python before moving onto something else after they get good at it. The problem is that you are going to have to start over from scratch if you use Python and switch to Java, C#, C++, whatever because you didn't learn much as it relates to other programming languages. In fact, it has been my personal opinion for a long time Python teaches programmers bad habits that make it difficult to adapt to other languages later on. For instance, Python is a non typed language. That means that when declaring functions and variables you don't have to initialize it with an explicit data type like integer, float, double, char, etc. While this is very nice for newbies, perhaps less confusing, its none-the-less a very bad habbit to get into. Especially, considering most programming languages require an explicit data type, and you should learn to do that from the beginning rather than learning something like Python and have to start over learning what you should have learned from the beginning. In other words what I'm saying I think Python takes too many shortcuts that gives you a less than aduquit education in programming techniques and theory. As I said, I don't know about your long term plans here but I'll end on this note. If you want to be an amateur game developer go with Python. However, ifyou want to be a pro, write really pro level games, then you have got to take the bull by the horns and learn something a bit more advanced than Python. HTH On 4/21/11, Christopher Bartlett themusicalbre...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, I have to come clean. I love the intellectual puzzle-solving aspects of programming, and used to be a pretty hot algorithm designer in class programming teams. The drudgery that is most programming has turned me away from this love. Recently while pondering a challenge in playing RSW, (retro starweb) I decided that programming was going to be my only solution, other than waiting for the developer to create the text-based client. In checking out the current programming landscape, I discovered Python, which I had known about in a sort of oh, this exists and is scriptish, kind of way. But in investigating further, I found a language I could very much fall in love with, given some
