Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
window-eyes doesn't need to be unloaded either but you actually don't need to even turn the speech off in that as it will just say the game name and not bother you with telling such obvias things as cursor keys being pressed. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Well, you can set hal to do that as well if you wish, but personally I always prefer voice off anyway. Glad to here Window eyes does this too. Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: peter Mahach piterm...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) window-eyes doesn't need to be unloaded either but you actually don't need to even turn the speech off in that as it will just say the game name and not bother you with telling such obvias things as cursor keys being pressed. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 7:27 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
I have never had to turn either Window-Eyes or System Access off when playing almost any game. Yes, you do here some random chatter when you press keys, but that is all. There is no conflict with the keyboard, unless you use a hotkey that the screen reader uses. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:28 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
On the subjcct of Screen Readers and games, I have found out something quite strange about Treasure Hunt. When I tried to enter the code into the control panel without JAWS loaded, I could not-turned out I had to load JAWS to do it. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Karl Belanger Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 8:22 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) I have never had to turn either Window-Eyes or System Access off when playing almost any game. Yes, you do here some random chatter when you press keys, but that is all. There is no conflict with the keyboard, unless you use a hotkey that the screen reader uses. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of dark Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:28 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Window-Eyes is the same way. I've had occasions where I forgot Window-Eyes was sill running and I booted and played a full game. Never got a sound from WE until I quit the game. JAWS certainly doesn't do that. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, November 28, 2009 11:27 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Fair enough Bryan, --- and good to here window eyes is so obliging, i must admit I've never even met anyone in this country who use window eyes, much less tried it myself, it's probably the one of the big three which i know least about. With hal, how necessary it is to turn the voice off depends upon whether you have Hal set to speak keystrokes which do not cause on screen changes. I usually have it set to do so, sinse occasionally I'll have several windows focused and it's handy to know whether I'm moving a curser around, tabbing or what, or whether the keystrokes are just pressing keys, but certainly it's not necessary for Hal to do this either, though just flicking voice and keys off and on is fairly easy to do as I said. Beware the gRue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Hi Dark, It is interesting you bring this topic up. As it happens I am a Window eyes user, have been so for a number of years, and haven't experienced any issues with having it running while playing a game like Q9 or Mysteries of the Ancients. The problem with the screen reader and the games locking up seams to be a Jaws specific issue. If I start my copy of Jaws and run Mysteries of the Ancients the keyboard commands for the menus etc will do absolutely nothing. Unload Jaws and the game works fine. Load Window Eyes and the game together and the game works fine. So the problem is definitely Jaws specific. I've mentioned this problem to them a while back, but they did what they always do, and blew me off. Freedom Scientific really doesn't care about their customer base as far as I can tell. Plus some of their people have really narrow minded opinions on some things. dark wrote: Just as a vaguely informational point, with hal there is never any need to actually shut the program down. The voice can be turned off with ctrl 0, and at that point all commands which do not directly interfere with hal's own commands are absolutely fine to use, --- in fact the only real reason to turn the voice off is to stop random chatter throughout the game. In games which use the number pad, - or the F keys when playing on a laptop, and thus conflict with Hal's own commands, it's also necessary to turn Hal's keys off with ctrl 8 after turning the voice off. Sinse ctrl space is needed to enter Hal's control panel, --- it's necessary to do this in Q9 as well, though it's not really a problem. I believe the reason hal can stil run and not conflictwith games etc is something to do with the way hal handles keystrokes being different to the way Jaws (or I believe window eyes), does, but I'm not sure. this is just some extra information, sinse I've noticed a lot of developers automatically instruct players to shut down their screen readers before playing as a matter of course, which obviously isn't as necessary with Hal. Probably because i'm used to it, I admit I like Hal's system, sinse it means I can very literally start a game up, then flick off Hal's voice and possibly keys if needed while the game is running, and don't have the bother of having to setup short cuts or some other way of starting the games without being able to read the screen. btw, this isn't intended as a Hal vs jaws bash, such conversations are rarely useful, - particularly with someone like me who's used Hal for so long, I'm incredibly used to the way it does things, and would find different methods slightly confusing, the couple of occasions I've had chance to play with a system with Jaws installed on it were not happy ones exactly for this reason. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Interesting Tom. I admit, i know very litle about window eyes at all, in fact I didn't even know it existed until about 3 years ago. i suspect this is for the same reason that many people in the Us do not know about Hal. I wasn't sure about window eyes and games, though as so much audio games documentation reads turn off your screen reader rather than turn off Jaws I'd vaguely assumed that window eyes had the same trouble. Nice to know it doesn't, but what you say about freedom scientific is sad indeed, especially from someone who can phone up dolphin and get oh hello, how's your brother? though i admit having dealt with dolphin for the past eleven years, and indeed used dolphin software provided by school for six years before that, I'm probably in a slightly more unique position than some. Stil, I'm disturbed that an access tech company could be so irritating. When I report a bug to dolphin, or ask about Hal's compatibility with a given program, they're usually good about giving me an answer. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
Doubtless Dark the reason for that is that while they may say your screen reader, a lot of game developers probably assume most of their customer base uses JAWS. I myself was a staunch JAWS user until two years ago, when I discovered that JAWS won't let me use the NeoSpeach voices and Window-Eyes will. Then as I experimented I discovered that Window-Eyes worked so much better with just about every program I used. The bit with games was just an accidental discovery, but I still turn off Window-Eyes out of habbit when I play games. Homer: Hey, uh, could you go across the street and get me a slice of pizza? Vender: No pizza. Only Khlav Kalash. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, November 29, 2009 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?) Interesting Tom. I admit, i know very litle about window eyes at all, in fact I didn't even know it existed until about 3 years ago. i suspect this is for the same reason that many people in the Us do not know about Hal. I wasn't sure about window eyes and games, though as so much audio games documentation reads turn off your screen reader rather than turn off Jaws I'd vaguely assumed that window eyes had the same trouble. Nice to know it doesn't, but what you say about freedom scientific is sad indeed, especially from someone who can phone up dolphin and get oh hello, how's your brother? though i admit having dealt with dolphin for the past eleven years, and indeed used dolphin software provided by school for six years before that, I'm probably in a slightly more unique position than some. Stil, I'm disturbed that an access tech company could be so irritating. When I report a bug to dolphin, or ask about Hal's compatibility with a given program, they're usually good about giving me an answer. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Q9 and screen readers was: XP Gamer Woes (?)
That is probably true Bryan, I've noticed that some people tend to assume every person using a screen reader will automatically use Jaws. I was for instance a trifle irritated when during one of my first experiments with muds, I wrote to the admins of Alterean to get things working, and they sent me a link to some Jaws script files, despite the fact that i'd clearly stated in my E-mail I was using Hal. i must confess, during my one try out with jaws, I wasn't a fan, but given the amount of time I've used Hal that's not surprising, and I'm fairly certain there are people who would say the same thing upon trying Hal after using another screen reader. One option I missed for instance, was Hal's ability to customize what punctuation is read when. i have Hal for instance set to read all punctuation when reviewing via arrow keys, sinse that's what I use when editing, some punctuation when typing so i can remember sentence structure, and none at all when i'm reading using continuous document read, sinse the last thing I want to here in a text adventure, story, --- or even someone's post or E-mail is constant repeats of period comma or dash. I was a litle bothered that Jaws didn't have these options, sinse I rely on them for a lot of things i do involving text, --- in fact without them I'm not sure if I would be quite as much a fan of text adventures and gamebooks as I am now. As I said this isn't intended as a Jaws bash, or a Hal promo, merely noting things I've got used to having in hal which I'd miss in another program. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
