Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Thomas, OK. Well now it has been explained to me calmly I can see what you mean. If it is not practical to include both API's, which your explanation shows me it isn't, then that is fine. I am just one of these people who likes to think about everybody when doing a project. There are still quite a lot of people over here in the UK who use earlier windows. Maybe not so much 95, I think I only know about four or five who use that. But I know certainly a fair few people who are still using 98 or ME. Mainly people who don't use their systems for high-end work and only write documents and play games on it. One such person is a relative of mine who turned blind in 2000 - that was the computer he was provided with. The last thing I'd want to say to him is, I've made a game that you might like, oh, but I'm sorry Uncle, I forgot, you can't play it because you're only running Windows 98 and it won't work on anything lower than XP. I hope that helps to explain why I have this, please try and support all platforms, past and future if you can outlook. I didn't realise the effort involved in such a venture, which is why I suggested it in the first place. Having never really used multiple core API's before except maybe DirectX 8 and the Windows API, I was unaware of what it would take. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2011 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi Damien, My apologies. I didn't mean to bite your head off. I shouldn't have come down on you so harshly. However, allow me to explain my position a little clearer withouttthe flaming. First, my issue isn't with the fact people are running older operating systems like XP. I know full well a lot of us have fixed incomes, a limited budget, and the Microsoft technologies cost a lot to upgrade and maintain regularly. So my agrivation isn't so much that people are running older software, but all too often many of them have an attitude of if it ain't broke don't fix it. That really agrivates me, because I know full well that isn't true when multiple versions of Windows are involved. For instance, XAudio2 is available for XP, Vista, and Windows 7 and is a totally free upgrade. There is no reason why someone can't upgrade to XAudio2 if they are running XP because it is free and by doing so a developer can better support XP, Vista, and Windows 7 at the same time using the exact same APIs and libraries. Instead of doing the right thing like switching to XAudio2 for all Windows platforms we get these compromises like lets support XP with DirectSound and support Vista with XAudio2, or let the end user decide wich he/she wants to use etc. That is a nightmare for a developer to be honest, and perhaps we should be greatful Philip allowed us to discuss this openly with him. A mainstream developer would just pick the best option for the project, and that would be the end of the debate right there. Second, as far as thinking of the community as a hole that is what I'm doing as well. Sure I have a vested interested in this choice because I am effected by this decision more than XP users. However, you have to understand exactly where I am coming from. When I began taking college courses one of the things they traind us to do as programmers is to think and plan ahead for the future. To plan ahead in advance so that our software can be supported and upgraded for the long term rather than just looking at what is available for today. By doing so you will adopt certain APIs, tools, and practices that will help you achieve that goal for the long term rather than the short term. Otherwise from a technical point of view you are setting yourself up for a huge amount of work rewriting and fixing your mistakes later on. For example, let's say a person starts programming a game today in Visual Basic 6, using DirectX 8, and makes the build for a Windows XP 32-bit system. He figures reasonably enough that most of the computers have this type of setup, and will just blow off the fact that 64-bit platforms have replaced 32-bit platforms, and that Visual Basic 6 and DirectX 8 are not really handled that well on Windows 7. Two years from now Microsoft releases Windows X, it is 64-bit only, running on a 64-bit platform, and VB 6 and DirectX 8 are no longer compatible with the operating system. What is the developer to do? Well, the answer is quite clear. He has to take his source code and upgrade it to VB .NET or similar language which will require a massive rewrite. That will cost him both time and energy rewriting what he has already written. All of this could have been avoided just by doing that in the first place. It isn't like he didn't know when he started that these changes were coming, but he chose to ignore them for whatever reason. My point is since BGT is a game development tool we are going to run into this exact
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Damien, Oh, that is quite understandable. My opinion is similar to yours in that a game or any software project should try and take account of as many people as possible. The problem is, of course, that it is much easier said than done. Even in the open source communities like Linux most of the software has to be released as open source so that someone running another platform such as Windows, Mac OS, FreeBSD, or a different distribution of Linux can modify the code and port it to their platform of choice. It just isn't possible for one person to do it alone. I found that out the hard way myself. For example, you are probably well aware of how much time and effort I've put into trying to create a cross-platform version of the Genesis 3D engine. The problem is that the APIs for Windows, Linux, and Mac OS are so completely different there is no real middle ground when it comes to producing cross-platform code. Yes, there is middleware solutions like FMOD Ex or SFML, but what I've found is that the really good middleware solutions like FMOD are extremely expensive to license, and SFML works fine on some platforms and crashes on others. The conclusion I've found through long hours of trial and error is to write a game engine specifically for each of the major platforms that uses what native APIs are present and forget about the middleware solutions as much as possible.This is, to say the least, extremely time consuming. We are facing a similar situation with legacy operating systems like Windows 9x verses Windows 7. Microsoft has removed and dropped a number of technologies present on Windows 95/98 in favor of a bunch of new technologies now present on Windows 7. It ends up putting a developer like me in the hot seat. I can either stick with the old which would certainly open the product up to more customers, but at the same time not provide adiquit support for the new operating systems of today. Once again, it seams like two different builds are required to really and truly resolve this issue which isn't practical. At least not for every kind of project. Which is the other issue. Some games such as STFC 2.0 is fairly cross-platform by design. Unlike MOTA I've been using open source libraries like SDL from the beginning. It doesn't require advanced 3d audio processing, Sapi, and all of the code has been very very generic C/C++ code. I imagine if someone could scrape up a copy of Visual C++ 6, would install the SDL SDK for Windows 98, it could easily be back ported to older Windows releases. That's just because it doesn't use a lot of OS specific APIs etc. The Genesis 3D engine on the other hand is considerably more complex. It depends on the Windows API for handling Windows events, DirectX for input, Streemway for audio, and it uses Winsock for networking. It also was compiled using Sapi 5.3 so it has MS Sapi 5 support. It also is linked against the Windows 7.1 Platform SDK which means I'm using the latest Windows libraries available for maximum stability. It really was never designed to take in account older Windows releases than XP, and would require quite a lot of downgrading with potential stability problems in order to be ported to Windows 9x. Cheers! On 3/5/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Thomas, OK. Well now it has been explained to me calmly I can see what you mean. If it is not practical to include both API's, which your explanation shows me it isn't, then that is fine. I am just one of these people who likes to think about everybody when doing a project. There are still quite a lot of people over here in the UK who use earlier windows. Maybe not so much 95, I think I only know about four or five who use that. But I know certainly a fair few people who are still using 98 or ME. Mainly people who don't use their systems for high-end work and only write documents and play games on it. One such person is a relative of mine who turned blind in 2000 - that was the computer he was provided with. The last thing I'd want to say to him is, I've made a game that you might like, oh, but I'm sorry Uncle, I forgot, you can't play it because you're only running Windows 98 and it won't work on anything lower than XP. I hope that helps to explain why I have this, please try and support all platforms, past and future if you can outlook. I didn't realise the effort involved in such a venture, which is why I suggested it in the first place. Having never really used multiple core API's before except maybe DirectX 8 and the Windows API, I was unaware of what it would take. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
To me is ok to switch to XAudio2. I dont know about you guys. Tommy - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 2:03 AM Subject: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Shaun, BGT games will not need to be changed at all, but end users will need the June 2010 version of Direct X in order to play them. XAudio2 does not support panning natively, however the programmers I hired to write the port of Streemway from DirectSound to XAudio2 have found a way to change the volume of individual speakers. I have then extended this myself so that now, panning works 100 % the same as in DirectSound. In other words, not only will there be no change necessary to existing code but there will also not be any difference whatsoever in the positioning of sounds in stereo. This is not a pan simulation in 3d, this is exactly the same behavior as DirectSound exposes. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT well switch if you can. It does mean panning will have to have 3d encoding but tom did manage it in mota once and it was not to bad. of cause that probably means that every bgt game created will probably not work anymore. I guess you could keep legacy stuff around is it possible to have both loads and then people can use either function set? Eventually like anything direct sound will probably dissapear but for now there are a lot of people that still play with it and use it. Though I am no programmer and don't know how game code would have to change. if it just means the files change but the code is the same with more options and such then thats fine with me. At 09:03 p.m. 4/03/2011, you wrote: Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Philip, I would like you to change to XAudio2, but would it be possible to have links to those Direct X 9 and Windows 7 updates that you suggested? I have Vista and have updated to the latest service pack. thanks, Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:03 AM Subject: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3479 - Release Date: 03/03/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Phil, The best way to make sure you're up to date is to run the Direct X Web Installer from Microsoft, but I can certainly provide this on my website as well for people to download. I will also include it if I ever make a Blastbay Games CD. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi Philip, I would like you to change to XAudio2, but would it be possible to have links to those Direct X 9 and Windows 7 updates that you suggested? I have Vista and have updated to the latest service pack. thanks, Phil - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 3:03 AM Subject: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3479 - Release Date: 03/03/11 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
well switch if you can. It does mean panning will have to have 3d encoding but tom did manage it in mota once and it was not to bad. of cause that probably means that every bgt game created will probably not work anymore. I guess you could keep legacy stuff around is it possible to have both loads and then people can use either function set? Eventually like anything direct sound will probably dissapear but for now there are a lot of people that still play with it and use it. Though I am no programmer and don't know how game code would have to change. if it just means the files change but the code is the same with more options and such then thats fine with me. At 09:03 p.m. 4/03/2011, you wrote: Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
then if its just libraries I don't have any issue with it. the directx 9 latest is june 2010 anyway and a lot of games need that anyway. Change it then. At 10:16 p.m. 4/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Shaun, BGT games will not need to be changed at all, but end users will need the June 2010 version of Direct X in order to play them. XAudio2 does not support panning natively, however the programmers I hired to write the port of Streemway from DirectSound to XAudio2 have found a way to change the volume of individual speakers. I have then extended this myself so that now, panning works 100 % the same as in DirectSound. In other words, not only will there be no change necessary to existing code but there will also not be any difference whatsoever in the positioning of sounds in stereo. This is not a pan simulation in 3d, this is exactly the same behavior as DirectSound exposes. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:11 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT well switch if you can. It does mean panning will have to have 3d encoding but tom did manage it in mota once and it was not to bad. of cause that probably means that every bgt game created will probably not work anymore. I guess you could keep legacy stuff around is it possible to have both loads and then people can use either function set? Eventually like anything direct sound will probably dissapear but for now there are a lot of people that still play with it and use it. Though I am no programmer and don't know how game code would have to change. if it just means the files change but the code is the same with more options and such then thats fine with me. At 09:03 p.m. 4/03/2011, you wrote: Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
No, please update. Dragging old technology along if the newer technology works better is counter productive. Soundcards and audio setups have changed a lot since 1995. - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:03 AM Subject: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Could a check be built in to automatically check for the needed components, then prompt for download? I'm certainly OK with switching to the new. On 3/4/2011 3:03 AM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. -- Casey Mathews www.webfriendlyhelp.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
On Fri, Mar 04, 2011 at 02:22:05AM -0600, Tommy wrote: To me is ok to switch to XAudio2. I dont know about you guys. [My Reply:] Well, as long as I don't have to migrate past Windows XP Service Pack 2, and upgrade to the buggy Service Pack 3. In any case, don't let me stop you. I don't plan on giving Microsoft any more of my money in any case. If the XP laptop stops being internet compliant, I'll just install Linux on it. Give me a good reason to remove the GUI from the desktop, since I only use it to listen to youtube videos anyway. Michael -- Linux User: 177869 # Powered By: Intel # http://rivensight.dyndns.org Postings Copyrighted 2010-2011 by: Michael Ferranti --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Why not make the switch? People should upgrade anyway, make a habit of it. Maybe you could even incorporate XAudio2 within your installation so the process is easier to upgrade. Just my 2 cents. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Louis, I don't feel that people should be forced into upgrading. I believe there should be a check to see which library will successfully open the audio device. Start with XAudio2. If that fails, switch to DirectSound. That way, there is no necessity to upgrade, but those who have upgraded will still receive the benefits of the new system. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Louis Bryant lo...@braillesoft.net To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Why not make the switch? People should upgrade anyway, make a habit of it. Maybe you could even incorporate XAudio2 within your installation so the process is easier to upgrade. Just my 2 cents. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Damien, I'm sure you know this is coming, but I absolutely disagree with this. For one thing it is not practical to include XAudio2 and DirectSound in the same executable and it is going to become much harder to support long term since Microsoft has officially dropped support for DirectSound 8 and earlier. That means support will only remain as long as the legacy libraries are compatible with the OS. As it is we are already experiencing problems with DirectSound 8 and Windows 7, and nobody knows if it will be remotely compatible with the next version of Windows or not. Given that fact alone it is always a good idea to adopt the new standards early on so that BGT and all the games written for it are not only XP compatible but are forward compatible with Windows 7 and beyond. It is frankly downright foolish to stick with an old API and unsupported legacy libraries when there is an easy Windows XP web installer for the newer DirectX components. I'm frankly sick and tired of this if it ain't broke don't fix it attitude I see on this list. Second, there are a number of key benifits to upgrading to XAudio2 rather than sticking with DirectSound besides forward compatibility. Improved 3d audio, better custom DSP effects, better memory management, better support for newer sound cards, etc top the list of improvements and features. Answer me why on earth would you want to forego these benifits and features just to stick with an out dated technology like DirectSound In my opinion there is absolutely nothing, no reason what so ever, that could convince me that DirectSound is better. If you disagree with me that's fine, but absolutely do not, I mean do not, hold us back from XAudio2 because Windows 7 users such as myself absolutely need it. DirectSound does not work well on Windows 7 at all and it is high time that developers get off their collective butts and start providing up to date technical support for the OS or I'm personally not going to buy a single product from them again. Not now not ever. On 3/4/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Louis, I don't feel that people should be forced into upgrading. I believe there should be a check to see which library will successfully open the audio device. Start with XAudio2. If that fails, switch to DirectSound. That way, there is no necessity to upgrade, but those who have upgraded will still receive the benefits of the new system. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Michael, Michael wrote: Well, as long as I don't have to migrate past Windows XP Service Pack 2, and upgrade to the buggy Service Pack 3. My reply: What do you mean service pack 3 is buggy? My wife and I have been running XP sp3 on an old desktop ever since it came out and haven't had any problems with it. It was far more stable than Windows Vista. So I haven't a clue what you are talking about. In any case I'm pretty sure the DirectX components we are talking about are sp2 compatible. However, you might have to check. It is possible they have updated to using sp3 libraries by now. That would generally be because they are supposed to be more stable than sp2 libraries. Cheers! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Casey, Yes, that is possible to do, but not exactly cheap. It is up to the setup application to check for installed components and install them. I haven't had any luck with Inno Setup in testing for these components, but I do know Advanced Setup Installer will test for various requirements such as DirectX, .NET Framework, and lots of stuff. Problem is that Advanced Setup Installer is extremely, extremely, extremely expensive. So while it is possible in order to pay for the right tools for the job you can expect the game developers to pay an extra $300 to $400 to get the right setup tools. Either that or they have to learn Microsofts MSI language and write custom MSI scripts. Not the easiest job for a newby. Cheers! On 3/4/11, Casey Mathews csm...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Could a check be built in to automatically check for the needed components, then prompt for download? I'm certainly OK with switching to the new. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Shaun, Not true. Yes, it is true that XAudio2 doesn't have a native pan control but the way the API is designed it is rather simple to create a custom pan control for XAudio2 that works exactly like DirectSound. Philip and I have been discussing this off list, and he has already made such a pan control for Streemway so nothing would essentially change for BGT developers. The only change is they would get a better API for game development, and they shouldn't have to do major modification of their game code either. As for MOTA and 3d you might want to remember that that was using OpenAL via the SFML-Audio wrapper. SFML-Audio didn't offer a pan control, and OpenAL works completely different from XAudio2. To be canded comparing OpenAL and XAudio2 is comparing apples and oranges. They are two different kinds of fruit, but that's where similarity ends and differences begin. All I'm saying as stop thinking of XAudio2 in the same terms of OpenAL as they work differently and shouldn't be compared in this context. On 3/4/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: well switch if you can. It does mean panning will have to have 3d encoding but tom did manage it in mota once and it was not to bad. of cause that probably means that every bgt game created will probably not work anymore. I guess you could keep legacy stuff around is it possible to have both loads and then people can use either function set? Eventually like anything direct sound will probably dissapear but for now there are a lot of people that still play with it and use it. Though I am no programmer and don't know how game code would have to change. if it just means the files change but the code is the same with more options and such then thats fine with me. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Philip, Yes, by all means please do. As one of those who has already switched all but one of my Windows computers to Windows 7 it is a bit unfair to be held back from buying new games using XAudio2 that will directly support Windows 7 better just to pander to those Windows users still running XP who either refuse or don't have the money to upgrade to Windows 7 yet. Especially, seeing as upgrading to DirectX June 2010 is a free upgrade for them and wouldn't cost them anything more than a little time and energy. Plus as BGT is a commercial venture I think you should think highly of the future compatibility of the engine rather than thinking of what people have right now. Odds are probably pretty good in the next five years most of the XP systems running right now will be so far out of date people will buy new computers with Windows 7 preinstalled and it is a good idea to plan ahead for that eventuality rather than waiting until the change comes and have to play catch up. On 3/4/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi all, Recently I have been making some drastic changes to the BGT core. As many of you will know, most audio games today use a technology known as DirectSound to output audio. BGT is no exception. Until about 3 years ago DirectSound was the interface of choice for all Windows based games. It has been around since 1995, and has become rather stable over the years. However, Microsoft are now pushing developers away from DirectSound as it is being replaced by a new audio engine called XAudio2. XAudio2 provides much greater flexibility when it comes to low latency audio processing, and is an over-all better system than DirectSound. However, in order for XAudio2 to work reliably I have found that the end users need to run at least the June 2010 release of Direct X 9. It is also necessary for users of Windows 7 service pack 1 to upgrade in a few cases. So my question to you all is this. In the next BGT release, would you like me to switch to XAudio2? This will give much better performance on Windows Vista and 7 as compared to DirectSound, but should be about the same on Xp. However, the games simply will not run if the user has anything earlier than Direct X June 2010 installed and it will force them to upgrade. Do I maintain two versions of the engine for a while, a DirectSound and an XAudio2 build, or are we okay to switch immediately? This is what I would like to ask you all before I make a final decision. Thanks for reading. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hey Thomas, I'm sorry it really bothers you that much. For a start, it was only a suggestion to try and be forward, as well as backward compatible and I felt you were biting my head off so to speak. The tone of your message there I feel was rather harsh and judgmental, even disdainful, towards people running earlier systems. I myself have no problems making reasonable upgrades to my system if and when the time comes, I was merely thinking of the community as a whole. For a second, I was not holding anybody back from XAudio2. If you want XAudio2, fine. If not, I don't think people should be penalised for it and have to suffer a lack of games and the developer a lack of money because only three out of the seven or so Windows operating systems are supported. To give you an idea, I have a friend based over here who has written software, and even a miniature game, that can be run on all flavours of windows, right from Windows 95, which he runs by the way, all the way up to Vista, if not higher. If his game were marketable, there is a possibility he may get more custom than people who are prepared to only support the latest and greatest, since there are also people, quite a few of whom I am on friendly terms with, who run systems earlier than XP, either for personal preference, or financial problems in upgrades. I think there should be more tolerance towards people who prefer earlier versions of an operating system. I myself would choose XP over any of the later systems, because that is the system that I have written, composed music, edited audio, played games and programmed software with for the past ten years, although I have been through the 95 and 98 phases as well. Even if I wanted to I couldn't upgrade to a later version of Windows, since it would mean forking out a whole lot more money just for a new licence for a completely new copy of Windows. With my living arrangements this just isn't affordable. So am I uncool or unworthy just because I run on an older system? Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 10:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi Damien, I'm sure you know this is coming, but I absolutely disagree with this. For one thing it is not practical to include XAudio2 and DirectSound in the same executable and it is going to become much harder to support long term since Microsoft has officially dropped support for DirectSound 8 and earlier. That means support will only remain as long as the legacy libraries are compatible with the OS. As it is we are already experiencing problems with DirectSound 8 and Windows 7, and nobody knows if it will be remotely compatible with the next version of Windows or not. Given that fact alone it is always a good idea to adopt the new standards early on so that BGT and all the games written for it are not only XP compatible but are forward compatible with Windows 7 and beyond. It is frankly downright foolish to stick with an old API and unsupported legacy libraries when there is an easy Windows XP web installer for the newer DirectX components. I'm frankly sick and tired of this if it ain't broke don't fix it attitude I see on this list. Second, there are a number of key benifits to upgrading to XAudio2 rather than sticking with DirectSound besides forward compatibility. Improved 3d audio, better custom DSP effects, better memory management, better support for newer sound cards, etc top the list of improvements and features. Answer me why on earth would you want to forego these benifits and features just to stick with an out dated technology like DirectSound In my opinion there is absolutely nothing, no reason what so ever, that could convince me that DirectSound is better. If you disagree with me that's fine, but absolutely do not, I mean do not, hold us back from XAudio2 because Windows 7 users such as myself absolutely need it. DirectSound does not work well on Windows 7 at all and it is high time that developers get off their collective butts and start providing up to date technical support for the OS or I'm personally not going to buy a single product from them again. Not now not ever. On 3/4/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Louis, I don't feel that people should be forced into upgrading. I believe there should be a check to see which library will successfully open the audio device. Start with XAudio2. If that fails, switch to DirectSound. That way, there is no necessity to upgrade, but those who have upgraded will still receive the benefits of the new system. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Thomas, Even if Inno Setup can't internally check for such components, I am sure it would be possible to check with the Pascal scripting, just by checking for certain files or registry values, or even better, run the DXSetup tool directly from the installer using a silent installation, and let that do all the work. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, March 04, 2011 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT Hi Casey, Yes, that is possible to do, but not exactly cheap. It is up to the setup application to check for installed components and install them. I haven't had any luck with Inno Setup in testing for these components, but I do know Advanced Setup Installer will test for various requirements such as DirectX, .NET Framework, and lots of stuff. Problem is that Advanced Setup Installer is extremely, extremely, extremely expensive. So while it is possible in order to pay for the right tools for the job you can expect the game developers to pay an extra $300 to $400 to get the right setup tools. Either that or they have to learn Microsofts MSI language and write custom MSI scripts. Not the easiest job for a newby. Cheers! On 3/4/11, Casey Mathews csm...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Could a check be built in to automatically check for the needed components, then prompt for download? I'm certainly OK with switching to the new. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
Hi Damien, My apologies. I didn't mean to bite your head off. I shouldn't have come down on you so harshly. However, allow me to explain my position a little clearer withouttthe flaming. First, my issue isn't with the fact people are running older operating systems like XP. I know full well a lot of us have fixed incomes, a limited budget, and the Microsoft technologies cost a lot to upgrade and maintain regularly. So my agrivation isn't so much that people are running older software, but all too often many of them have an attitude of if it ain't broke don't fix it. That really agrivates me, because I know full well that isn't true when multiple versions of Windows are involved. For instance, XAudio2 is available for XP, Vista, and Windows 7 and is a totally free upgrade. There is no reason why someone can't upgrade to XAudio2 if they are running XP because it is free and by doing so a developer can better support XP, Vista, and Windows 7 at the same time using the exact same APIs and libraries. Instead of doing the right thing like switching to XAudio2 for all Windows platforms we get these compromises like lets support XP with DirectSound and support Vista with XAudio2, or let the end user decide wich he/she wants to use etc. That is a nightmare for a developer to be honest, and perhaps we should be greatful Philip allowed us to discuss this openly with him. A mainstream developer would just pick the best option for the project, and that would be the end of the debate right there. Second, as far as thinking of the community as a hole that is what I'm doing as well. Sure I have a vested interested in this choice because I am effected by this decision more than XP users. However, you have to understand exactly where I am coming from. When I began taking college courses one of the things they traind us to do as programmers is to think and plan ahead for the future. To plan ahead in advance so that our software can be supported and upgraded for the long term rather than just looking at what is available for today. By doing so you will adopt certain APIs, tools, and practices that will help you achieve that goal for the long term rather than the short term. Otherwise from a technical point of view you are setting yourself up for a huge amount of work rewriting and fixing your mistakes later on. For example, let's say a person starts programming a game today in Visual Basic 6, using DirectX 8, and makes the build for a Windows XP 32-bit system. He figures reasonably enough that most of the computers have this type of setup, and will just blow off the fact that 64-bit platforms have replaced 32-bit platforms, and that Visual Basic 6 and DirectX 8 are not really handled that well on Windows 7. Two years from now Microsoft releases Windows X, it is 64-bit only, running on a 64-bit platform, and VB 6 and DirectX 8 are no longer compatible with the operating system. What is the developer to do? Well, the answer is quite clear. He has to take his source code and upgrade it to VB .NET or similar language which will require a massive rewrite. That will cost him both time and energy rewriting what he has already written. All of this could have been avoided just by doing that in the first place. It isn't like he didn't know when he started that these changes were coming, but he chose to ignore them for whatever reason. My point is since BGT is a game development tool we are going to run into this exact same issue sooner or later. It is better we take care of this upgrade now rather than wait until whenever to take care of it. Do you see where I am coming from? Finally, as far as supporting Windows 95 through Windows 7 I know it can be done, but it is not a good idea by any means. there are some darn good reasons why pro developers don't do it, and those are the exact same reasons why I will never support Windows 95, 98, or ME. It has nothing to do with tollerence, but more to do with the time, cost, and technical aspects of trying to support Windows 9x era software. One, any time you want to try and support legacy software like Windows 95 and Windows 98 that means you end up having to use a lowest common denominator approach. Instead of using Visual C++ 2008 that means going clear back to Visual C++ 6.0 which is less accessible, buggier, and is no longer supported on Windows 7. Instead of using DirectX 9.0C, DirectX 10, or DirectX 11 we have to go back to DirectX 8 which is itself no longer supported. In fact, the SDK isn't even available from Microsoft any more making finding and obtaining the development kits required a serious difficulty. Two, assuming we decide to use this lowest common denominator approach everyone who purchases your product are litterally going to lose out on a lot of features that could have been included by supporting newer APIs and libraries. For example, better 3d graphics using Microsoft Direct3D, support for XInput controllers using XInput, superior 3d audio processing and
Re: [Audyssey] XAudio2 and BGT
there are third party tools for inosetup existing round about but I have never tried them. At 12:00 p.m. 5/03/2011, you wrote: Hi Casey, Yes, that is possible to do, but not exactly cheap. It is up to the setup application to check for installed components and install them. I haven't had any luck with Inno Setup in testing for these components, but I do know Advanced Setup Installer will test for various requirements such as DirectX, .NET Framework, and lots of stuff. Problem is that Advanced Setup Installer is extremely, extremely, extremely expensive. So while it is possible in order to pay for the right tools for the job you can expect the game developers to pay an extra $300 to $400 to get the right setup tools. Either that or they have to learn Microsofts MSI language and write custom MSI scripts. Not the easiest job for a newby. Cheers! On 3/4/11, Casey Mathews csm...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Could a check be built in to automatically check for the needed components, then prompt for download? I'm certainly OK with switching to the new. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
