Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-30 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Eleanor,
I just read your white paper, and it was definitely a good read.
Although, it focused on vidio game accessibility this is actually an
issue that effects all software products and developers equally. Far
too many software manufacturers create a certain software product, and
then only add accessibility to the software as an after thought.
Usually the claim is that adding accessibility costs to much.
However, as your white paper clearly pointed out the Baby Boomer
generation, those whith the majority of the money, are getting older,
are becoming disabled themselves, and could use accessible software
more than ever. This is where some companies like Apple are way ahead
of the Windows PC market in terms of a universal accessibility
framework. Not only does Mac OS 10.6 come with a decent screen reader
built into the operating system the entire accessibility framework of
the operating system has been completely designed in such a way that
any application written using the official Apple APIs and programming
standards should be fairly accessible out of the box, and adding that
accessibility doesn't cost the developer more time and effort to make
the software that way as the accessibility is included into Mac's
toolkits, APIs, etc.
As I see it as a game developer the same kind of strategy can be used
in producing accessible vidio games. A lot of vidio games out there
are built using a fully qualified game engine. If they took the time
to add text to speech support, closed captioning, and one-handed mode
to the engine itself any future games built using that engine could
use those accessibility features without much added time and expense
in developing the games themselves. However, the game companies have
to make a reasonable effort to add the accessibility into the game
engine itself before they produce the game/games. If they do that the
cost of development will be spread out over the entire population of
disabled and non-disabled gamers.
One problem is, as I personally see it, is the colleges and
universities themselves are not pushing for better accessibility
standards. Instead they will teach a new programmer the basics of
programming using Java, C++, Visual Basic .Net, whatever but there is
no discussion on ways to make an application accessible to someone
with any kind of disability.  Therefore there is a large majority of
programmers out there completely unaware of products like Jaws,
Window-Eyes, Zoom Text, etc, and most of them don't have any idea how
to go about making a program accessible in the first place.
So from my point of view we really should start with the class room
and teach new programmers how to make software accessible as they are
learning. Get them when they are young and just starting out.  Teach
them the fundimentals of accessibility before they go to work for
Activision, EA Games, or go into business for themselves.


On 5/28/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote:
 As a developer who is interested in making accessible games, I read all
 you folks had to say about what you want in audiogames.  Yes, it would
 be great if these kinds of games would be available. The problem as I
 see it is that it is not only not economically feasible to do these
 kinds of games, it is basically  impossible without a far larger market
 than the number of blind and visually impaired gamers that are presently
 around.  That said, there is a possible answer.

 I just got back from the Games For Health conference where I presented
 at the Accessibility Day track.  What I was talking about is that as
 people age, the percent of those with one or more disability increases
 dramatically.  Over 40% of the over 65 year olds reported one or more
 disability in the past US census.  I don't know what the new census will
 show and it probably won't be available until 2014.  That has the
 potential to increase the number of people who would be interested in
 audio games.  Stephanie from the AbleGamers Foundation and I did a white
 paper that shows the potential lost revenue game developers are facing
 in the next five years if they don't make games accessible.  You can
 read the paper on our website, www.7128.com.

 Also, there was a workshop at the conference that Philip Benefal was
 supposed to participate in via telephone/skype, and the Internet
 connection went down just before the workshop so the leader couldn't
 contact Philip.  The topic that was being discussed was audio game
 development on mobile devices that could be used by people who are
 exercising to make the time fly by and encourage more time exercising.
 These obviously would be simple games both because of the platform
 limitations and the fact you don't want the depth of involvement you get
 in a game like Entombed.  BUT - and this is the BIG thing that might
 come from this type of game development, if you get sighted players
 interested in and willing to buy audio games you have just magically
 increased your market considerably.  If you 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-29 Thread Lisa Hayes
and you know Thomas, without the games we have and who the hell who says the 
sounds are no good, not me for sure.  without the games we now have this 
forum wouldn't be here and  no one would be complaining.  Now I've had my 
computer fixed and can play games again I am revelling in what games I have 
and planning what games I am going to buy.

Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


There no comparison between what you've been up to and what Yohandy's been 
up to as far as moving ahead in the blind gaming community.  It's time for 
him to become an athlete, regardless of how skilled he starts out, or quit 
being an inexperienced umpire of the high school leagues trying to call a 
Major League game.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-29 Thread Lisa Hayes

and Canada as well for law changes.
Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: dark d...@xgam.org

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 12:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


The basic issue is that graphics programming is it's own can of worms. 
That's why even though games like time of conflict, shades and sound rts 
have a minimal graphic display, it's not evey up to nes quality.


Adding graphics reasonable enough to appeal to even the sited public who 
play independent games would take a huge amount of work indeed, --- and 
may not even be compatible with audio representations of the environment 
anyway,  for instance, you couldn't put packman grapics in packman 
talks, sinse that would let the sited player see the entire maze and where 
the ghosts were going,  where as someone just playing with sounds only 
gets to know what's immediately around them.


Terraofrmers is really the only game developed from scratch with any kind 
of graphical support.


That being said, this is precisely what the chaps at Gamevial wish to do, 
though they are coming at it from the other side, sinse they wish to 
develope audio tools to allow blind people to play their graphical web 
based games,  but have only created some fairly short concept demos 
thus far.


So, the long and short of it is,  yes, it's possible but you treble 
the work load and create a hole bunch of issues for yourself.


Beware the Grue!

Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-29 Thread Lisa Hayes
Thomas the list, is behind you and grateful for what you and our other 
developers do all for the delight of doing it too.  And if someone can make 
a little money by selling games good for them.

Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Saturday, May 29, 2010 4:44 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-29 Thread Muhammed Deniz

Well, Well, Well, complaining doesn't really solve the situation.
My audio games for the blind group.
Discussions off topic are welcome in the holidays. Talking about games is 
welcome, talking about computer problems is welcome when their are know 
holidays but that's only in easter holidays or know holidays. If you want to 
joyn, just send a blank email to.

audiogamesfortheblind+subscr...@googlegroups.com
With the subject subscribe in the subject line.
Contact infermation.
email:
muhamme...@googlemail.com
msn:
muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk
Skype:
muhammed.deniz
Klango username.
muhammed
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 10:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


This is a fair answer and a fair offer.  Rather than always complaining 
like, Why can't you guys create the games I want?, ask, How can I help 
to create the games I want?
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Yohandy,
Sigh...Weather you realise it or not, not  every accessible game out
there is just another space invaders clone like Troopenum or Aliens in
the Outback. Have you ever tried Entombed, Rail Racer, 3D Velocity, or
Time of Conflict?
All of these are newer accessible games just coming onto the
accessible games market and while they are not mainstream quality they
are certainly better than games like Troopenum.  I think you need to
look at what is available instead of just assuming every single game
is just another Space Invaders clone which they are not.
However, you've convinced me we need to do something about this all
the same. How about you put your wollet were your mouth is and do
something about it for a change?
Okay you say you want games like Street Fighter 4 if you agree to fit
the bill for sounds, music, and pay me a yearly salary I'll go to work
for you bright and early Monday morning. I'm absolutely serious. If
you can give me a reasonable income, cover my medical, plus provide me
the software and tools I need to create the next great Street Fighter
4 for the blind I'll do it, but I can't do it without money and an
income to keep a roof over my head and cover living expenses. I'm not
going to do it for free.
You say the sounds in accessible games aren't good enough for you. How
about purchasing the community a sound library of royalty free sounds
from Sound Ideas.  Last time I checked a cd costs $$300 to $500 a pop.
You can easily put $5,000 into a reasonable sound library jjust to get
started making games. If you purchase them for me I'll use them. If
not then you'll just have to put up with what I can afford on my
budget.
Basicly, I don't want to shoot your ideas down, be a wet blanket, but
you have to get realistic.  Just because you want something to be a
certain way doesn't mean it is realisticly feasable no matter how much
you wish it to be otherwise.  If you believe that is feasable all I'm
saying is put your money were your mouth is and make it happen or stop
complaining about it. If it truly means that much to you personally
then start by purchasing sounds, learn to program, and make a
contribution rather than blaming us for failing to  reach your quality
and standards.

Smile.


On 5/27/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep
things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games 
are

concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how
will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still 
be a

1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never
happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones 
forever

with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on
here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here
grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's
possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to
come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people
here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just
satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because 
the
game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is 
what's
holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time 
you're

considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy
product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's 
truly

out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and
determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out 
there,
it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Damien Pendleton

Hi Yohandy,
There are several factors to consider here.
Firstly, the blind gaming market is considerably smaller than the mainstream 
market, which is why people work by themselves on the games. Another 
contributing factor is the fact that the developers themselves are even 
fewer than the market they are selling for, which is why they don't just sit 
in an office hiring out people for millions of dollars to do everything and 
expecting to still make a profit off them. I can safely sit here, and say 
that at the time of Acefire's release, I was quite proud of it because I was 
quite a beginner in coding. Since I am now working with BGT, however, with 
the help of others, I am slowly building up my abilities and am now in the 
process of making a sidescroller.
Thirdly, we as humans only live so long. If we waited ten years for every 
audiogame that came out, we would still only have three games to play. I 
remember the time when I was at secondary school, the only games available 
to us were Grizzly Gulch, Chillingham and Troopanum, and maybe a few small 
ones that I weren't exposed to.
In that case, during our lifetimes we may only have ten or twelve games, and 
it would only be in 25 years that we might start catching up to the 
mainstream market today. That is if the world's end still hasn't wiped us 
out as has been predicted on more than one occasion.
Then there are sounds. You say the ones that are used are mediocre. I agree 
that the sounds to some games are quite poor, but that is no fault of the 
developers. Again, we are a small market, and buying professional sounds 
from Sound Ideas, the BBC, Hollywood Edge etc are very expensive. For the 
amount of sounds I have purchased in the last year, I would have to release 
several games and sell them in order to make a profit. Not to mention music, 
and equipment for making your own music, whatever suits your fancy.
As for voice chat, I have been thinking on more than one occasion of putting 
voice chat into my games, and I sincerely hope that the possibility will 
find its way into BGT, as I agree that would be a very handy thing.
As for playing mainstream games, to be honest I don't know how people can do 
it if they are blind. I had a Playstation for five years, and never could I 
sus any of the games that were purchased for me, including fighting games, 
racing games, boxing games, quiz games, board games, you name it.
In the end up, yes, even I as a developer are happy with the games that are 
available, because they are simple, yet enjoyable.

Regards,
Damien.




- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:47 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio 
games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your 
own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll 
still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it 
should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders 
clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is 
most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. 
Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out 
there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to play 
troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply 
frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good 
games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have 
and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but 
because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again, 
perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your 
money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about 
purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming 
wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm write 
or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. If 
I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming convention 
out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it on iphones.




- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Yohandy,
For the most part I do agree with your comments below, and as someone
who has played several mainstream games over the years I know where
you are coming from. However, as a software developer with several
years of programming and experience under my belt I have to say your
expectations are unrealisticly high. Not saying your ideas and
opinions are bad here, but just a bit unrealistic considering the
challenges involved in adding voice chat, online pvp play, etc.
First of all, the majority of those writing accessible games are not
professional programmers. Many have not had any professional training
of any kind and are self-taught through books, online tutorials,
whatever. Not saying that is bad, but their skills may or may not be
up to the challenge of creating something that complex. Like
everything else in life if you don't have the necessary
training/skills you can't do it.
Let me use an example here. PCS Games has created some pretty decent
games like Pac-Man Talks and Sarah using the GMA Engine. However, Phil
is not a professional programmer, and the extent of his programming
per say is limited to scripting the GMA Engine. He can create decent
games using that engine, but doesn't have the skills to do what you
are talking about on his own.
Second of all, there is the issue of time. Since programming games
isn't my full time job I don't exactly have all day to spend on
writing accessible games. I usually get two or three hours a day tops
to work on a game and that is why it is taking me forever to work on a
game as relatively simple as Mysteries of the Ancients. The more
complex the game the longer it will take. To be blunt about it saying,
take ten years if I have to  in order to write a really good game,
is easy to say when you aren't the person doing all the work, and have
to look at it day in and day out.
I'll be honest with you. Not counting my failed attempt at Montezuma's
Revenge I've been working on Mysteries of the Ancients for two solid
years. At this point I am completely burned out on the game, and down
right sick of it. I doubt I can stand to work on it another full year
let alone spend something like 10 years on a single project. It simply
wouldn't be worth it to me personally.
Third, there is the issue of money. When we talk mainstream developers
we are talking a team of guys who are getting paid at least $60,000 or
more to work on games like that. Not only do they have an entire team
to work on the project, thus drastically reducing the time to add
features like that, they are getting paid to do it. As for myself
there is very little financial income from accessible games as it is
let alone working my butt off for practically nothing. Over a 10 year
period I could release five or more games for the same length of time
It took me to create your so-called 10 year project. That is
financially speaking more practical and realistic for me.
However, all that said I don't think it would take 10 years to do what
you ask. It would take at least a couple of years developing an engine
that had the features like voice chat, online pvp play, etc. Once
those features were designed into the engine it would be possible to
create games like you are talking about. Although, it could get
expensive creating such an engine.
I don't know if you realised this or not but Philip Bennefall has out
sourced certain components of the BGT engine to third-party
professional developers. Not only does he get high quality work done,
it saves him time, but it also is costing him quite a lot of money in
the initial investment. I think that was a great idea, but I know I
couldn't do it. I don't have a couple thousand or so to pay up front
to another developer to help me develope my software.
As far as joining with other accessible game developers again that is
problematic. Right now the accessible game developers are all over the
map as far as programming languages goes. Blind Adrenaline uses C# and
Visual Basic .NET, Jim Kitchen uses Visual Basic 6, 7-128 uses Java,
Philip Bennefall is developing his BGT Engine in C++, and I'm skilled
in several different programming languages. I'm flexable in terms of
programming languages, but I'd personally insist that the project be
done in C++ which would immediately eliminate Java, Visual Basic, and
the AutoIt developers. That basically leaves me with someone like Josh
from Draconis and Philip from Blastbay, and I happen to know they have
their own projects right now. So between our own projects and likely
different schedules I doubt a colaberation between Blastbay, Draconis,
and USA Games would be possible.
The one thing I think I could do as a developer, though, is continue
to maintain games, adding new levels, adding expantions, etc.
For example, when Draconis released the ESP Pinball Party pack for
Pinball Extreme that was a great idea in my opinion. They made money
on an existing game, and it gave users something new to play even
though basically it was the same 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Very very true. One game you didn't mention that has many advanced
features is Rail Racer by Blind Adrenaline. It comes with a track
editor which allows you to add an unlimited number of custom tracks to
the game.  It also allows you to earn virtual money that can be turned
in for upgrades for your racer.  It has a chat client. Plus online
racing with others. I have to say for an accessible game it is getting
very very close to what Yohandy is talking about already.
Then, there is the card games from the Blind Adrenaline card room.
Okay they are simple card games, not quite as advanced as Rail Racer,
but they are online games, and are pretty par for mainstream card
games only accesssible. So that's just an example of where  some
developers are already heading. Just we are a few years behind the
mainstream I guess.


On 5/28/10, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:
 While I appreciate your frustration, I think your assessment that no
 developement is being done is,  well just plane wrong.

 Even in the five years that I've been playing audio games, I've noticed a
 change, larger and more complex games, games with online competition, and
 games with user created content.

 As technology improves in developement, so the games will improve, just at a
 slower wrate than mainstream ones.

 For a truer comparison, try looking around at some of the independently
 produced pc games,  look at the Smugglers series for instance, same
 number of devs and amount of resources.

 and, as for suggestions, well I do have several,  but they're mostly
 being taken into considderation already.

 The first, is user created content. level editers, sound editers etc. while
 these are harder to produce, they don't half expand the game. For a look at
 what effect they can have look at Jim's golf game.

 Many games though, are now doing this extremely, entombed, Rail Racer, time
 of conflict sound rts etc.

 If for example shades of doom had an easily usable level creator which would
 let you set where the monsters appeared, and make new monsters and items for
 the game,  well we'd probably see a good few expantions.

 The second thought I have on expantion, is randomness. the more monsters etc
 are just placed in one place, the less replay a game has.

 A brilliant example of this is Q9. A simple arcade style game, but you never
 know where the monsters will appear, thus making it very fresh to play each
 time,  ditto with tom's game.

 Another suggestion I have is exploration (especially when combined with
 randomness as in entombed). The more area in a game you need to explore, the
 longer it'll take you to finish.

 A final thought is using the online play we have. Afterall, Toc will be far
 more interesting when it's possible to play against a number of humans than
 against the computer. This might not be super fast voice chat,  but it
 does the job, and provides a varied playing experience, particularly in
 games like stratogy games where there is considderable variation in a
 players' possible actions.

 Luckily though, these are all trends which are actually being expanded upon
 anyway, and probably will continue to be in the future.

 Beware the grue!

 Dark.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Orin
Totally agreed.


On May 27, 2010, at 9:19 PM, Ryan Conroy wrote:

 I couldn't agree more!
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
 Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:19:54 -0800
 
 Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as well. 
 a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. There are 
 so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think bigger games 
 need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander, while the 
 radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss either Voice 
 actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be interested in 
 taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply recordings with 
 voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought up, with online 
 features, would be great. I can only imagine playing shades of doom or tank 
 commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. 
 It would be great.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
 
 
 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
 that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
 it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
 up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
 never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
 market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
 aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
 expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
 mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
 game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
 and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
 free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
 of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
 value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
 and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
 start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
 social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
 rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
 rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
 with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
 if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much more 
 replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode 
 the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
 people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
 game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio 
 games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have online 
 playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when most 
 mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that 
 difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking 
 because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask 
 me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll 
 never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers 
 want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 
 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
 long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, and 
 get together and form a programming team. but give us something good. 
 something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! this game 
 completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands now, most of 
 the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an hour or so and 
 never play it again, and this is probably true for many people on here. 
 something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, developers and 
 gamers aliketo make it happen!
 
 
 ---
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 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
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 If 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Orin
Uh. Dude, I doubt every one here is spending their money on iPhones, me 
included. Lol.


On May 27, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Yohandy wrote:

 ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just keep 
 things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games are 
 concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how will 
 things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be a 1 man 
 developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never happen? are 
 most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones forever with 
 mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on here have 
 nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here grew up 
 playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's possible, 
 but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to come with no 
 complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't 
 care if we ever got good games or not because they're just satisfied with 
 what they already have and that's really sad, not because the game is or 
 isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is what's holding us 
 back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering 
 spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how 
 about purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there 
 gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm 
 write or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. 
 If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming convention 
 out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it on iphones.
 
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
 
 
 Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
 produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on one 
 project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
 - Original Message - From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
 
 
 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
 that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
 it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep up 
 the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game never 
 gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames market, 
 and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys aren't 
 realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these expansions. 
 mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new mainstream FPS game 
 comes out and new levels are added after the initial game release, the 
 developer could charge $5 for those additional levels and those interested 
 will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content free and sell even more 
 copies of that particular game. people get bored of the same old stuff, 
 especially if the game doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I 
 don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the 
 only problem. I think it's about time developers start adding an online 
 component to their titles to make games a more social experience. no 
 offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and 
 play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play 
 most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with people, not 
 playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even if street fighter 
 didn't have online features it would have been much more replayable than 
 any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode the game 
 contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are people 
 who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the game's been 
 out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio games? back 
 to online features. even the few audiogames that have online playability, 
 we actually have to communicate through text, when most mainstream games 
 are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that difficult to add 
 voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking because I like to be 
 informed on these things. This is why when people ask me if we'll ever 
 catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll never happen. 
 devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers want. and please 
 I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 man operation 
 excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that long, or Find 
 developers who use the 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread shaun everiss

well I like my nokia and vodaphone.
besides the local blind org lets me have talks standard for 100 as 
part of the vodaphone contract so its not like I am changing to anything else.

At 08:16 p.m. 28/05/2010, you wrote:
Uh. Dude, I doubt every one here is spending their money on iPhones, 
me included. Lol.



On May 27, 2010, at 9:47 PM, Yohandy wrote:

 ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we 
do? just keep things the way they are and never have any 
advancement where audio games are concerned? don't shoot down my 
ideas, come up with some of your own. how will things be different 
in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be a 1 man developer 
job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never happen? are 
most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones forever 
with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most 
people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. 
Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's 
out there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to 
play troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply 
frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got 
good games or not because they're just satisfied with what they 
already have and that's really sad, not because the game is or 
isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is what's 
holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time 
you're considering spending your money on the newest shiniest 
iphone or blindy product, how about purchasing an actual console 
and check out what's truly out there gaming wise? then you guys can 
make your own decisions and determine if I'm write or not. if 
there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. If I 
had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming 
convention out there trying to make a difference instead of 
spending it on iphones.




 - Original Message - From: Charles Rivard 
woofer...@sbcglobal.net

 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 
years to produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend 
that long on one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that 
long for a game?

 - Original Message - From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying 
is the fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. 
even if they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game 
comes out just to keep up the hype and keep people 
buying, then after that the game never gets any sort of expansion. 
I think this is hurting the audiogames market, and developers are 
losing potential customers. what you guys aren't realizing is that 
people are even willing to pay for these expansions. mainstream 
titles do it all the time. let's say a new mainstream FPS game 
comes out and new levels are added after the initial game release, 
the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels and those 
interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content free 
and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much 
replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't 
been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's 
about time developers start adding an online component to their 
titles to make games a more social experience. no offense to any 
developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and play a 
few rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play 
most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with people, 
not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even if 
street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to 
the trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for 
months. in fact there are people who've yet to complete trial mode 
on street Fighter IV and the game's been out for over a year! can 
you guys make such claims about audio games? back to online 
features. even the few audiogames that have online playability, we 
actually have to communicate through text, when most mainstream 
games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that 
difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm 
asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why 
when people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, 
I tell them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start 
concentrating on what the gamers want. and 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Orin
Indeed, Entombed probably is the best game we have now in terms of playability. 
I'll say what we don't have though is a game with a complex interactive story. 
I think 3D Velocity is going to be the hardest game coming out this year, if it 
even comes out this summer or early fall, it is, in my opinion, the most 
complex game we have to date with fast paced action. I'm pretty sure Munawar is 
looking for a change in the audio games as well, so I think he be most 
definitely be getting the hard, complex game achievement. Add to the fact that 
the game is real time, of course. I'd even be willing to bet that the speed at 
which you have to react is almost the same as Hawx, a combat flight game for 
the PS3. Not to mention other games like this; was just throwing that one out.




On May 28, 2010, at 12:21 AM, dark wrote:

 Hi Yohandi,
 
 firstly, I will point out that many games actually do do the expantion bit 
 your talking about. Entombed, rail racer, sound rts, che's card games 
 topspeed, all have lots of expandable content, through user created stuff, 
 --- in fact Ithink this is really going to take off when entombed's dungeon 
 creator is released.
 
 Second, as regards online play, that is already being added to as many games 
 in as efficient a way as possible,  sound rts and toc already have this 
 and as Phil said it's looking at being added to more games, however lso bare 
 in mind there are people (myself included), who are more concerned about a 
 complete single player experience than online interaction,   so saying 
 all games should have this doesn't take into account our taste.
 
 finally, the most major and complete thing to remember is resources.
 
 Capcom had a massive team of people working on Streetfighter Iv for four a 
 pretty solid couple of years. For Streetfighter I don't know figures, but i 
 do know the latest mortal combat titles have about 100-150 full time 
 programmers working on the game, testing it, putting it through it's paces.
 
 Find 150 programmers who will work on an audio game for 2 years, --- and then 
 you might well get the same result.
 
 For a fairer comparison it's more reasonable to compare audio games to 
 independent graphical pc games developed with a similar amount of resources 
 and by a similar number of people.
 
 One game for example which I play (not accessible unfortunately), is the game 
 Hurrican.
 
 This is a very large exploration 2D platform shooter similar to Metroid or 
 Mega man.
 
 it has many features, great sound and environments, and even a level creation 
 tool which some people have used to make extra levels. However, while it's 
 certainly as good as games produced 15 years ago on the Snes,  and 
 graphically probably equaling a ps1 game,  can it equal games produced 
 now?  hell no!
 
 And how long did it take to develope?  five! years! yes, five! years! for 
 a game which is 10-15 years behind what is produced by companies like capcom.
 
 That is really the bottom line. Comparing audio games to games like 
 streetfighter Iv, is like comparing a delivery boy with a bicicle to UPs, and 
 asking why the delivery boy can't have that package in Hongkong tomorrow 
 morning!
 
 Beware the grue!
 
 Dark. 
 
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

I fully agree on the extra missions and level packs idea, in fact several 
independent graphical developers have very much followed this model for the 
same reasons and it's worked out exceedingly well.


Look at Niels bauer and their addons as an example.

I certainly as a player would be deffinately in favour of for instance 
buying another six missions from Gma for tank commander for 15 or 20 
usd,  or even an extra few levels of Mota should you wish to develope 
them.


This would also help financially too.

Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark
Very true tom, I did mention rail racer, but I didn't considder the card 
room,  which I certainly should have done.


Che is doing a great job there.

As I said, I really think things are going very much in the right direction 
developement wise currently anyway.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Very very true. One game you didn't mention that has many advanced
features is Rail Racer by Blind Adrenaline. It comes with a track
editor which allows you to add an unlimited number of custom tracks to
the game.  It also allows you to earn virtual money that can be turned
in for upgrades for your racer.  It has a chat client. Plus online
racing with others. I have to say for an accessible game it is getting
very very close to what Yohandy is talking about already.
Then, there is the card games from the Blind Adrenaline card room.
Okay they are simple card games, not quite as advanced as Rail Racer,
but they are online games, and are pretty par for mainstream card
games only accesssible. So that's just an example of where  some
developers are already heading. Just we are a few years behind the
mainstream I guess.


On 5/28/10, dark d...@xgam.org wrote:

While I appreciate your frustration, I think your assessment that no
developement is being done is,  well just plane wrong.

Even in the five years that I've been playing audio games, I've noticed a
change, larger and more complex games, games with online competition, and
games with user created content.

As technology improves in developement, so the games will improve, just 
at a

slower wrate than mainstream ones.

For a truer comparison, try looking around at some of the independently
produced pc games,  look at the Smugglers series for instance, same
number of devs and amount of resources.

and, as for suggestions, well I do have several,  but they're mostly
being taken into considderation already.

The first, is user created content. level editers, sound editers etc. 
while
these are harder to produce, they don't half expand the game. For a look 
at

what effect they can have look at Jim's golf game.

Many games though, are now doing this extremely, entombed, Rail Racer, 
time

of conflict sound rts etc.

If for example shades of doom had an easily usable level creator which 
would
let you set where the monsters appeared, and make new monsters and items 
for

the game,  well we'd probably see a good few expantions.

The second thought I have on expantion, is randomness. the more monsters 
etc

are just placed in one place, the less replay a game has.

A brilliant example of this is Q9. A simple arcade style game, but you 
never
know where the monsters will appear, thus making it very fresh to play 
each

time,  ditto with tom's game.

Another suggestion I have is exploration (especially when combined with
randomness as in entombed). The more area in a game you need to explore, 
the

longer it'll take you to finish.

A final thought is using the online play we have. Afterall, Toc will be 
far
more interesting when it's possible to play against a number of humans 
than
against the computer. This might not be super fast voice chat,  but 
it

does the job, and provides a varied playing experience, particularly in
games like stratogy games where there is considderable variation in a
players' possible actions.

Luckily though, these are all trends which are actually being expanded 
upon

anyway, and probably will continue to be in the future.

Beware the grue!

Dark.


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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

This is why I feel it's much more realistic and fairer to compare audio game 
developement to the developement of independent games with similar amounts 
of man power and resources, such as Hurrican.


Generally I'd say audio games are stil slightly behind such things, --- but 
not by half as wide a margin as behind mainstream games, and also that gap 
is closing rapidly with more game developements.


Of course, there are far more people making graphical pc games independently 
than audio games, and far more helpful tools, scripts, libraries and other 
resources kicking about to make them, --- but again, this is deffinately 
changing.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Rick

Hi list.
I don't normally join in on these discussions, but I've been wondering.
I hear people say that the blind gaming community is small, and there is 
only so much money to be made on blind games.
What I want to know is, is there a reason a blind developer couldn't try to 
team up with sighted developers and make games that both sighted and blind 
can play?
If it could be done, the blind developer might make more money, and might 
even educate people on what blind people really need and want.

Not what the sighted think the blind need.
Just my two cents, if I'm making any sense at all.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark
The basic issue is that graphics programming is it's own can of worms. 
That's why even though games like time of conflict, shades and sound rts 
have a minimal graphic display, it's not evey up to nes quality.


Adding graphics reasonable enough to appeal to even the sited public who 
play independent games would take a huge amount of work indeed, --- and may 
not even be compatible with audio representations of the environment 
anyway,  for instance, you couldn't put packman grapics in packman 
talks, sinse that would let the sited player see the entire maze and where 
the ghosts were going,  where as someone just playing with sounds only 
gets to know what's immediately around them.


Terraofrmers is really the only game developed from scratch with any kind of 
graphical support.


That being said, this is precisely what the chaps at Gamevial wish to do, 
though they are coming at it from the other side, sinse they wish to 
develope audio tools to allow blind people to play their graphical web based 
games,  but have only created some fairly short concept demos thus far.


So, the long and short of it is,  yes, it's possible but you treble the 
work load and create a hole bunch of issues for yourself.


Beware the Grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi,
That's a very good question. The best answer I can give you is that
from a technical aspect audio games and video games are completely
different in design. That is that audio games require special features
that wouldn't work well in a fully graphical vidio game. Here is a
simple case in point.
You all know I am working on a game called Mysteries of the Ancients.
While I've done my best to give the blind gamer the feel of a fully
modern side-scroller there is a lot of things going on under the hood
that would not be at all compatible with a vidio game. One thing I am
working on right now is a view menu for the Genesis Engine where by
you can press a key and it will put all of the items, monsters, doors,
etc in a list you can arrow up and down through and hit the enter key
to get a description of that object. While this is very handy for a
totally blind gamer a feature like that would not at all be desirable
in a vidio game. It would freeze the graphics while the blind gamer is
viewing the room using his menu, and would slow down and disrupt the
action. So things like player verses player or joint game play
wouldn't work out at all with a feature like that.
Besides that, there are other things I do I wouldn't normally do if
this was a graphical game. One of these is while you press a key to
speak your health, location,  and other status the main game loop is
paused. This allows you to get current on demand information without
enemies swarming you and beating you to death before you can respond.
Sighted  mainstream games obviously don't do this because there are
ways of acquiring that information on screen inreal time.
In a game like Halo there are color bars on the screen that show you
how much health is remaining. Maximum health is blue, good health is
green, low health is yellow, and critical health status is red. A
sighted player can just glance at the color bar and see what his/her
status is without hearing it which is much faster than waiting to have
it spoken out to you word for word.
Plus, as stated erlier pausing the game loop in order to have
something spoken out to the player woulde freeze the game. The vidio
would be very choppy, not in sink with the audio, and it just is a
very difficult thing to pull off from a technical aspect as far as I
am concerned. Can it be done?
Yes, it can be done. Games like Teraformers and Smugglers has proven
it can be done, but there is a whole can of worms involved in sorting
out the technical aspects of making it enjoyable for a mainstream
gamer while bolting on accessibility without effecting the over all
game play.  I imagine this would be easier for some games than others.


On 5/28/10, Rick twelvestring...@verizon.net wrote:
 Hi list.
 I don't normally join in on these discussions, but I've been wondering.
 I hear people say that the blind gaming community is small, and there is
 only so much money to be made on blind games.
 What I want to know is, is there a reason a blind developer couldn't try to
 team up with sighted developers and make games that both sighted and blind
 can play?
 If it could be done, the blind developer might make more money, and might
 even educate people on what blind people really need and want.
 Not what the sighted think the blind need.
 Just my two cents, if I'm making any sense at all.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Bryan Peterson

Good one Thomas. I'd probably be tempted to do the same in your position.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

---
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread shaun everiss

thats a good idea.
Unfortunately there have only been 3 companies that have actually done this.
pininteractive with their teraformas game which i borrowed of a friend.
my hidef card did not really like one of the rooms in the lower levels.
it was in flash anyway.
Then there is lastcrusade and the experimental games projects.
then the blind eye which never worked that well.
There are tads inform and hugo and maybe a couple languages with 
sound support in them.
All in all though unless we can have sighted people in the games 
universe so to speak I don't think our track record is much over crappy.
We have not had a real suffistacated game over teraformas and its not 
really developped anymore really.

There was the game made by jafa which I know a few of us were due to go in.
But since I have not been able to  contact him I can only assume he 
is dead or off the net for some reason.


At 02:35 a.m. 29/05/2010, you wrote:

Hi list.
I don't normally join in on these discussions, but I've been wondering.
I hear people say that the blind gaming community is small, and 
there is only so much money to be made on blind games.
What I want to know is, is there a reason a blind developer couldn't 
try to team up with sighted developers and make games that both 
sighted and blind can play?
If it could be done, the blind developer might make more money, and 
might even educate people on what blind people really need and want.

Not what the sighted think the blind need.
Just my two cents, if I'm making any sense at all.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Muhammed Deniz

What? Teriformers? I just hate that game!
My audio games for the blind group.
Discussions off topic are welcome in the holidays. Talking about games is 
welcome, talking about computer problems is welcome when their are know 
holidays but that's only in easter holidays or know holidays. If you want to 
joyn, just send a blank email to.

audiogamesfortheblind+subscr...@googlegroups.com
With the subject subscribe in the subject line.
Contact infermation.
email:
muhamme...@googlemail.com
msn:
muhammed123...@hotmail.co.uk
Skype:
muhammed.deniz
Klango username.
muhammed
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



thats a good idea.
Unfortunately there have only been 3 companies that have actually done 
this.

pininteractive with their teraformas game which i borrowed of a friend.
my hidef card did not really like one of the rooms in the lower levels.
it was in flash anyway.
Then there is lastcrusade and the experimental games projects.
then the blind eye which never worked that well.
There are tads inform and hugo and maybe a couple languages with sound 
support in them.
All in all though unless we can have sighted people in the games universe 
so to speak I don't think our track record is much over crappy.
We have not had a real suffistacated game over teraformas and its not 
really developped anymore really.
There was the game made by jafa which I know a few of us were due to go 
in.
But since I have not been able to  contact him I can only assume he is 
dead or off the net for some reason.


At 02:35 a.m. 29/05/2010, you wrote:

Hi list.
I don't normally join in on these discussions, but I've been wondering.
I hear people say that the blind gaming community is small, and there is 
only so much money to be made on blind games.
What I want to know is, is there a reason a blind developer couldn't try 
to team up with sighted developers and make games that both sighted and 
blind can play?
If it could be done, the blind developer might make more money, and might 
even educate people on what blind people really need and want.

Not what the sighted think the blind need.
Just my two cents, if I'm making any sense at all.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward 
thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Yohandy,
Sigh...Weather you realise it or not, not  every accessible game out
there is just another space invaders clone like Troopenum or Aliens in
the Outback. Have you ever tried Entombed, Rail Racer, 3D Velocity, or
Time of Conflict?
All of these are newer accessible games just coming onto the
accessible games market and while they are not mainstream quality they
are certainly better than games like Troopenum.  I think you need to
look at what is available instead of just assuming every single game
is just another Space Invaders clone which they are not.
However, you've convinced me we need to do something about this all
the same. How about you put your wollet were your mouth is and do
something about it for a change?
Okay you say you want games like Street Fighter 4 if you agree to fit
the bill for sounds, music, and pay me a yearly salary I'll go to work
for you bright and early Monday morning. I'm absolutely serious. If
you can give me a reasonable income, cover my medical, plus provide me
the software and tools I need to create the next great Street Fighter
4 for the blind I'll do it, but I can't do it without money and an
income to keep a roof over my head and cover living expenses. I'm not
going to do it for free.
You say the sounds in accessible games aren't good enough for you. How
about purchasing the community a sound library of royalty free sounds
from Sound Ideas.  Last time I checked a cd costs $$300 to $500 a pop.
You can easily put $5,000 into a reasonable sound library jjust to get
started making games. If you purchase them for me I'll use them. If
not then you'll just have to put up with what I can afford on my
budget.
Basicly, I don't want to shoot your ideas down, be a wet blanket, but
you have to get realistic.  Just because you want something to be a
certain way doesn't mean it is realisticly feasable no matter how much
you wish it to be otherwise.  If you believe that is feasable all I'm
saying is put your money were your mouth is and make it happen or stop
complaining about it. If it truly means that much to you personally
then start by purchasing sounds, learn to program, and make a
contribution rather than blaming us for failing to  reach your quality
and standards.

Smile.


On 5/27/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
 ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just keep
 things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games are
 concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how
 will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be a
 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never
 happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones forever
 with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on
 here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here
 grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's
 possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to
 come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people
 here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just
 satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because the
 game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is what's
 holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're
 considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy
 product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly
 out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and
 determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out there,
 it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every
 gaming convention out there trying to make a difference instead of spending
 it on iphones.



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Charles Rivard
This is a fair answer and a fair offer.  Rather than always complaining 
like, Why can't you guys create the games I want?, ask, How can I help to 
create the games I want?
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Yohandy,
Sigh...Weather you realise it or not, not  every accessible game out
there is just another space invaders clone like Troopenum or Aliens in
the Outback. Have you ever tried Entombed, Rail Racer, 3D Velocity, or
Time of Conflict?
All of these are newer accessible games just coming onto the
accessible games market and while they are not mainstream quality they
are certainly better than games like Troopenum.  I think you need to
look at what is available instead of just assuming every single game
is just another Space Invaders clone which they are not.
However, you've convinced me we need to do something about this all
the same. How about you put your wollet were your mouth is and do
something about it for a change?
Okay you say you want games like Street Fighter 4 if you agree to fit
the bill for sounds, music, and pay me a yearly salary I'll go to work
for you bright and early Monday morning. I'm absolutely serious. If
you can give me a reasonable income, cover my medical, plus provide me
the software and tools I need to create the next great Street Fighter
4 for the blind I'll do it, but I can't do it without money and an
income to keep a roof over my head and cover living expenses. I'm not
going to do it for free.
You say the sounds in accessible games aren't good enough for you. How
about purchasing the community a sound library of royalty free sounds
from Sound Ideas.  Last time I checked a cd costs $$300 to $500 a pop.
You can easily put $5,000 into a reasonable sound library jjust to get
started making games. If you purchase them for me I'll use them. If
not then you'll just have to put up with what I can afford on my
budget.
Basicly, I don't want to shoot your ideas down, be a wet blanket, but
you have to get realistic.  Just because you want something to be a
certain way doesn't mean it is realisticly feasable no matter how much
you wish it to be otherwise.  If you believe that is feasable all I'm
saying is put your money were your mouth is and make it happen or stop
complaining about it. If it truly means that much to you personally
then start by purchasing sounds, learn to program, and make a
contribution rather than blaming us for failing to  reach your quality
and standards.

Smile.


On 5/27/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep
things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games 
are

concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how
will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be 
a

1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never
happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones 
forever

with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on
here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here
grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's
possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to
come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people
here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just
satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because 
the
game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is 
what's
holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time 
you're

considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy
product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's 
truly

out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and
determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out there,
it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at 
every
gaming convention out there trying to make a difference instead of 
spending

it on iphones.




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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Bryan Peterson
Exactly. Pay me enough and I'll try to learn enough about BGT to create as 
close a game as possible to what you want. I'm gonna need to save up for the 
Pro version anyway.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


This is a fair answer and a fair offer.  Rather than always complaining 
like, Why can't you guys create the games I want?, ask, How can I help 
to create the games I want?
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Yohandy,
Sigh...Weather you realise it or not, not  every accessible game out
there is just another space invaders clone like Troopenum or Aliens in
the Outback. Have you ever tried Entombed, Rail Racer, 3D Velocity, or
Time of Conflict?
All of these are newer accessible games just coming onto the
accessible games market and while they are not mainstream quality they
are certainly better than games like Troopenum.  I think you need to
look at what is available instead of just assuming every single game
is just another Space Invaders clone which they are not.
However, you've convinced me we need to do something about this all
the same. How about you put your wollet were your mouth is and do
something about it for a change?
Okay you say you want games like Street Fighter 4 if you agree to fit
the bill for sounds, music, and pay me a yearly salary I'll go to work
for you bright and early Monday morning. I'm absolutely serious. If
you can give me a reasonable income, cover my medical, plus provide me
the software and tools I need to create the next great Street Fighter
4 for the blind I'll do it, but I can't do it without money and an
income to keep a roof over my head and cover living expenses. I'm not
going to do it for free.
You say the sounds in accessible games aren't good enough for you. How
about purchasing the community a sound library of royalty free sounds
from Sound Ideas.  Last time I checked a cd costs $$300 to $500 a pop.
You can easily put $5,000 into a reasonable sound library jjust to get
started making games. If you purchase them for me I'll use them. If
not then you'll just have to put up with what I can afford on my
budget.
Basicly, I don't want to shoot your ideas down, be a wet blanket, but
you have to get realistic.  Just because you want something to be a
certain way doesn't mean it is realisticly feasable no matter how much
you wish it to be otherwise.  If you believe that is feasable all I'm
saying is put your money were your mouth is and make it happen or stop
complaining about it. If it truly means that much to you personally
then start by purchasing sounds, learn to program, and make a
contribution rather than blaming us for failing to  reach your quality
and standards.

Smile.


On 5/27/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep
things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games 
are

concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how
will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still 
be a

1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never
happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones 
forever

with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on
here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here
grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's
possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to
come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people
here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just
satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because 
the
game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is 
what's
holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time 
you're

considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy
product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's 
truly

out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and
determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out 
there,
it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at 
every
gaming convention out there trying to make a difference instead of 
spending

it on iphones.




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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Charles Rivard
There no comparison between what you've been up to and what Yohandy's been 
up to as far as moving ahead in the blind gaming community.  It's time for 
him to become an athlete, regardless of how skilled he starts out, or quit 
being an inexperienced umpire of the high school leagues trying to call a 
Major League game.
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Yohandy

Thomas,
DO you truly believe if I thought your work was worthless I would've 
preordered the game? Heck man I can't wait for the game to be released and 
finally play the entire thing! I wasn't referring personally to you or any 
other accessible game dev, I was simply stating that we're behind when it 
comes to the mainstream market and it's disappointing. I never said that you 
guys must create games due to my specifications. TO be honest with you I'm 
just so frustrated with the whole issue. you at least got to play many of 
these mainstream games, but an individual that's been blind since birth has 
to stick with certain gaming genres. I can't just go and buy Grand theft 
auto games and start playing them immediately. perhaps this limitation on 
the mainstream games we can play is what really frustrates me, and the fact 
that I'll probably never get to play these games. I hear people talking 
about the latest and greatest games that come out every day, and I can't 
help but get a bit jealous of the whole thing. I know you guys are doing the 
best you can, and if I gave the wrong impression I apologize. Oh and Thomas? 
Don't worry, if I ever become rich I shall pay you a yearly salary and you 
can make those games for me. How does that sound? hahahaha.


- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Hayden,
My thoughts exactly.  Admitedly I am a bit put out by Yohandy's
comments. Not because I don't understand them, as I have played
several mainstream games myself I do, but the fact I am unable to meet
his standards as a developer.
I have put two years into what might be considered an advanced
side-scroller compared to other accessible games and am working on a
new fully 3d first-person engine in order to create games on par with
Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, and Halo in the not to distant future. If
that isn't good enough for Yohandy I'm sorry to say that is tuff. I'm
doing all I can, and treating my work as though it isn't worth much is
a huge slap in the face. If Yohandy really truly wants a game like
Street Fighter 4 I'll put up a Paypal donation link and he can start
paying me a yearly salary to write the games he wants full time. As my
boss I'll also expect him to provide the sounds, music, and pay for
software upgrades, etc too in order to produce those games.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Thomas Ward
Hi Yohandy,
Understood. No offense taken. I merely wanted to give my point of view
from that of an accessible game developer doing his best to pproduce
something a cut or two above the rest. to make a real difference here.
Remember I'm just as anoyed, frustrated, and upset as you are that I
can't play mainstream games like I once did when I was sighted.
For example, I happen to have a Play Station 2 sitting over by my tv
with a number of comercial mainstream games I baught for it such as
Xena Warrior Princess, several of the Tomb Raider games, and a couple
of Star Wars games as well. I also happen to have Star Trek Elite
Force 1 and 2 as well As Tomb Raider Legend, Anniversary, and
Underworld installed on my PC. While I like those games a lot it
really upsets me to no end that I payed good money for those games and
get minimal accessibility out of them. If my wife doesn't help me
through the games I can't play them. So I totally understand what you
are going through.
It is because of my experience with mainstream games that I know the
difference and know exactly what we are missing here. I began work on
my Genesis 3D Engine as I wanted to create something as accessible as
the GMA Engine, but with more mainstream features. One thing I happen
to have planned is eventually the Genesis Engine will be supporting
Microsoft's XAudio2 library for Windows Vista/7 which has some ruly
amazing audio support. I'm merely waiting on PB Streemway to support
it which I know is coming in the not too distant future. That right
there will have a slight advantage over the GMA Engine which currently
still uses DirectSound.
Another feature I'm working on behind the seens is support for XBox
360 controllers with full force feedback support. I hope to support
the mouse, and other gaming devices as well. When it comes to input
the Genesis Engine will be right up there with mainstream titles
eventually.
Of all of its features I think the fact I have written it in C++ is
the most important. Do to the fact the way it is being written it uses
standard Windows components, libraries, and dependencies. That way it
will not only be easier to maintain and support games for newer
Windows platforms as they become available, but they will have a much
smaller size/footprint. In fact, all of the sounds in MOTA beta 13
uses ogg compression which means I have cut the size of the
installation directory in half. Not to mention the installer itself.
Then, thanks to Philip Bennefall, I'm strongly considering on
replacing the engine's scripting language with Angelscript. Those
familiar with BGT will be quite familiar with Angelscript as that is
what BGT uses and it is an awesome scripting language. So that is
another feature to look forward to in the future.
When you come down to it my plans for the future are already quite
high. Definitely not going to be producing another Troopenum or
similar Space Invaders knock-off. When my engine is ready to go I
should be putting out games similar to Elite Force, Tomb Raider, Halo,
Soldiers of Fortune, Resident Evil, whatever. They might not be quite
as good as modern mainstream games,but of a higher standard and
quality than what we have seen in the past for accessible games.

P.S.

When you begin making millions look me up.



On 5/28/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thomas,
 DO you truly believe if I thought your work was worthless I would've
 preordered the game? Heck man I can't wait for the game to be released and
 finally play the entire thing! I wasn't referring personally to you or any
 other accessible game dev, I was simply stating that we're behind when it
 comes to the mainstream market and it's disappointing. I never said that you
 guys must create games due to my specifications. TO be honest with you I'm
 just so frustrated with the whole issue. you at least got to play many of
 these mainstream games, but an individual that's been blind since birth has
 to stick with certain gaming genres. I can't just go and buy Grand theft
 auto games and start playing them immediately. perhaps this limitation on
 the mainstream games we can play is what really frustrates me, and the fact
 that I'll probably never get to play these games. I hear people talking
 about the latest and greatest games that come out every day, and I can't
 help but get a bit jealous of the whole thing. I know you guys are doing the
 best you can, and if I gave the wrong impression I apologize. Oh and Thomas?
 Don't worry, if I ever become rich I shall pay you a yearly salary and you
 can make those games for me. How does that sound? hahahaha.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Jim Kitchen

Hi Yohandy,

You know, if I had millions and millions of dollars that I had made from my 
previous game titles, I would hire a team to write the background story of the 
game idea that I have.  It might be something like roller coaster tycoon.  Next 
I would hire a team of programmers and sound tech people to write the code and 
produce the game and sounds for the game.  Of course since I had the money, 
people would apply for the job and do the job as presented to them from me , 
the project manager.  I am thinking that this is how main stream games are 
produced.  I do not think that it would work out so well if a bunch of people 
with the skills and artistic inspirations got together and tried to paint a 
picture together.  I don't believe that we have enough skilled blind 
programmers and enough money to put up to just hire skilled people to do the 
programming etc to produce the same type of games that the money produces for 
sighted gamers.  It to me is not the same as asking us who inspirer to make the 
games for the blind to all just get together and work together to produce games.

TGIF and BFN

Jim

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A CIVIL WAR?

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark

Hi Tom.

Really, only terraformers is a good example of a game with both graphics and 
audio.


while I think nielsbauer do some great games, essentially, they are stil 
static, and turn based in nature. Yes, there is a litle animation sequence 
when your ship shoots at the enemy making the enemy ship flash, and instead 
of the quickly displaying written signs which indicate health niels has had 
a window open for screen readers to read, but essentially the game is stil 
turn based,  and really functions just like an online game  in fact much 
of the interface in Core exiles reminds me distinctly of Smugglers.


This isn't a cryticism at all, I'm much impressed with nielsbauers' stuff, 
however, it is considderably easier to have a blind player take more time 
gathering on screen information in a game which is turn based, than in a 
real time fast action game.


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread dark
Actually sean, last crusade didn't have any graphics, accept in the map 
editer.


if you ask me it was a litle idiotic of the developers to release a 
graphical builder to make levels for an audio game,  but there's no 
accounting for taste I suppose.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 8:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



thats a good idea.
Unfortunately there have only been 3 companies that have actually done 
this.

pininteractive with their teraformas game which i borrowed of a friend.
my hidef card did not really like one of the rooms in the lower levels.
it was in flash anyway.
Then there is lastcrusade and the experimental games projects.
then the blind eye which never worked that well.
There are tads inform and hugo and maybe a couple languages with sound 
support in them.
All in all though unless we can have sighted people in the games universe 
so to speak I don't think our track record is much over crappy.
We have not had a real suffistacated game over teraformas and its not 
really developped anymore really.
There was the game made by jafa which I know a few of us were due to go 
in.
But since I have not been able to  contact him I can only assume he is 
dead or off the net for some reason.


At 02:35 a.m. 29/05/2010, you wrote:

Hi list.
I don't normally join in on these discussions, but I've been wondering.
I hear people say that the blind gaming community is small, and there is 
only so much money to be made on blind games.
What I want to know is, is there a reason a blind developer couldn't try 
to team up with sighted developers and make games that both sighted and 
blind can play?
If it could be done, the blind developer might make more money, and might 
even educate people on what blind people really need and want.

Not what the sighted think the blind need.
Just my two cents, if I'm making any sense at all.
- Original Message - From: Thomas Ward 
thomasward1...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi Dark,
Lol! My thoughts exactly. However, it really does come down to
manpower and financial resources.
For example, lets compare Shades of Doom to Doom 3.  Can they compare?
Hell no. Why?
Well, for an audio game Shades of Doom is a pretty good game, is
pretty close to Doom 1, but it took David Greenwood quite some time to
put it together and release it. That is just trying to create
something equal to the technology of 15 years ago. However, as I
recall it took ID Software two or three years to produce Doom 3 with
an entire team of software developers working on it full time.  We
can't reasonably expect our accessible game developers to compete with
that kind of product unless we have the same kind of financial budget,
same number of skilled developers etc. It just isn't going to happen
in this life time bro.

Smile.

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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Jim,
Hahaha! Where are you getting these oxymorons, or are you just thinking them
up?
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Jim Kitchen
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 7:30 PM
To: Yohandy
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Hi Yohandy,

You know, if I had millions and millions of dollars that I had made from my
previous game titles, I would hire a team to write the background story of
the game idea that I have.  It might be something like roller coaster
tycoon.  Next I would hire a team of programmers and sound tech people to
write the code and produce the game and sounds for the game.  Of course
since I had the money, people would apply for the job and do the job as
presented to them from me , the project manager.  I am thinking that this is
how main stream games are produced.  I do not think that it would work out
so well if a bunch of people with the skills and artistic inspirations got
together and tried to paint a picture together.  I don't believe that we
have enough skilled blind programmers and enough money to put up to just
hire skilled people to do the programming etc to produce the same type of
games that the money produces for sighted gamers.  It to me is not the same
as asking us who inspirer to make the games for the blind to all just get
together and work together to produce games.

TGIF and BFN

 Jim

HOW IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A CIVIL WAR?

j...@kitchensinc.net
http://www.kitchensinc.net
(440) 286-6920
Chardon Ohio USA
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-28 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
One comment--I do know he tried RailRacer, otherwise he's some kind of
genious who knows how to create RailRacer tracks without testing them and
they work.
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Rivard
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 4:45 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

This is a fair answer and a fair offer.  Rather than always complaining 
like, Why can't you guys create the games I want?, ask, How can I help to

create the games I want?
- Original Message - 
From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 Hi Yohandy,
 Sigh...Weather you realise it or not, not  every accessible game out
 there is just another space invaders clone like Troopenum or Aliens in
 the Outback. Have you ever tried Entombed, Rail Racer, 3D Velocity, or
 Time of Conflict?
 All of these are newer accessible games just coming onto the
 accessible games market and while they are not mainstream quality they
 are certainly better than games like Troopenum.  I think you need to
 look at what is available instead of just assuming every single game
 is just another Space Invaders clone which they are not.
 However, you've convinced me we need to do something about this all
 the same. How about you put your wollet were your mouth is and do
 something about it for a change?
 Okay you say you want games like Street Fighter 4 if you agree to fit
 the bill for sounds, music, and pay me a yearly salary I'll go to work
 for you bright and early Monday morning. I'm absolutely serious. If
 you can give me a reasonable income, cover my medical, plus provide me
 the software and tools I need to create the next great Street Fighter
 4 for the blind I'll do it, but I can't do it without money and an
 income to keep a roof over my head and cover living expenses. I'm not
 going to do it for free.
 You say the sounds in accessible games aren't good enough for you. How
 about purchasing the community a sound library of royalty free sounds
 from Sound Ideas.  Last time I checked a cd costs $$300 to $500 a pop.
 You can easily put $5,000 into a reasonable sound library jjust to get
 started making games. If you purchase them for me I'll use them. If
 not then you'll just have to put up with what I can afford on my
 budget.
 Basicly, I don't want to shoot your ideas down, be a wet blanket, but
 you have to get realistic.  Just because you want something to be a
 certain way doesn't mean it is realisticly feasable no matter how much
 you wish it to be otherwise.  If you believe that is feasable all I'm
 saying is put your money were your mouth is and make it happen or stop
 complaining about it. If it truly means that much to you personally
 then start by purchasing sounds, learn to program, and make a
 contribution rather than blaming us for failing to  reach your quality
 and standards.

 Smile.


 On 5/27/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote:
 ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
 keep
 things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games 
 are
 concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how
 will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be

 a
 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never
 happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones 
 forever
 with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on
 here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here
 grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's
 possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to
 come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people
 here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just
 satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because 
 the
 game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is 
 what's
 holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time 
 you're
 considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy
 product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's 
 truly
 out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and
 determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out there,
 it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at 
 every
 gaming convention out there trying to make a difference instead of 
 spending
 it on iphones.



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread clement chou
Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as well. 
a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. There are 
so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think bigger games 
need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander, while the 
radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss either Voice 
actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be interested in 
taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply recordings with 
voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought up, with online 
features, would be great. I can only imagine playing shades of doom or tank 
commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. 
It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much more 
replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode 
the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio 
games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have online 
playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when most 
mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that 
difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking 
because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask 
me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll 
never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers 
want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 
man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, and 
get together and form a programming team. but give us something good. 
something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! this game 
completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands now, most of 
the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an hour or so and 
never play it again, and this is probably true for many people on here. 
something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, developers and 
gamers aliketo make it happen!



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Ryan Conroy
I couldn't agree more!

-- Original Message --
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 18:19:54 -0800

Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as well. 
a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. There are 
so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think bigger games 
need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander, while the 
radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss either Voice 
actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be interested in 
taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply recordings with 
voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought up, with online 
features, would be great. I can only imagine playing shades of doom or tank 
commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. 
It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
 that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
 it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
 up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
 never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
 market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
 aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
 expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
 mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
 game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
 and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
 free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
 of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
 value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
 and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
 start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
 social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
 rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
 rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
 with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
 if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much more 
 replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode 
 the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
 people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
 game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio 
 games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have online 
 playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when most 
 mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that 
 difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking 
 because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask 
 me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll 
 never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers 
 want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 
 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
 long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, and 
 get together and form a programming team. but give us something good. 
 something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! this game 
 completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands now, most of 
 the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an hour or so and 
 never play it again, and this is probably true for many people on here. 
 something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, developers and 
 gamers aliketo make it happen!


 ---
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 If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
 gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.
 You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
 http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
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 list,
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You can make changes or 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Bryan Peterson
Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because we 
are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd also 
have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. That's 
partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's cold hard 
fact.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think 
bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander, 
while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss 
either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be 
interested in taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply 
recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought 
up, with online features, would be great. I can only imagine playing 
shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged 
death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact 
there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV 
and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims 
about audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that 
have online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, 
when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is 
it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm 
asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when 
people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell 
them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on 
what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio 
games are only a 1 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your 
game if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the same 
programming language you do, and get together and form a programming 
team. but give us something good. something that we can be proud of 15 
years from now and say wow! this game completely revolutionized the audio 
game market! as it stands now, most of the audio games I've purchased I 
just beat once in about an hour or so and never play it again, and this 
is probably true for many people on here. something needs to change, 
and it's up to all of us, developers and gamers aliketo make it 
happen!



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
And sound...can you imagine playing the equivalent of Mortal Combat with
recorded sounds? Otherwise, you'd spend thousands upon thousands of dollars.
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Bryan Peterson
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because we 
are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd also 
have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. That's 
partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's cold hard 
fact.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
 well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
 There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think 
 bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander,

 while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss 
 either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be 
 interested in taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply 
 recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought 
 up, with online features, would be great. I can only imagine playing 
 shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged 
 death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact

 that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are,

 it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
 up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
 never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
 market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
 aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
 expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
 mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
 game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
 and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
 free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
 of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
 value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet.

 and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
 start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
 social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much

 rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some

 rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
 with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
 if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
 more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
 trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact

 there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV 
 and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims 
 about audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that 
 have online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, 
 when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is 
 it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm

 asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when 
 people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell 
 them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on 
 what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio 
 games are only a 1 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your 
 game if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the same 
 programming language you do, and get together and form a programming 
 team. but give us something good. something that we can be proud of 15 
 years from now and say wow! this game 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Charles Rivard
Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on one 
project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much more 
replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode 
the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio 
games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have online 
playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when most 
mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that 
difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking 
because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask 
me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll 
never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers 
want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 
man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, and 
get together and form a programming team. but give us something good. 
something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! this game 
completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands now, most of 
the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an hour or so and 
never play it again, and this is probably true for many people on here. 
something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, developers and 
gamers aliketo make it happen!



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.


Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Charles Rivard
The one-man game developing company is not an excuse.  It's a fact, so, 
while it is a shame, we've got to consider it.  No ifs, ands, or buts.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because 
we are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd also 
have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. 
That's partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's cold 
hard fact.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think 
bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank 
Commander, while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens 
wouldn't be amiss either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I 
for one would be interested in taking that job. especially since the 
cutseens are simply recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the 
same games I brought up, with online features, would be great. I can only 
imagine playing shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other people in a 
full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional 
levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable 
content free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people 
get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have 
much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't 
been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about 
time developers start adding an online component to their titles to make 
games a more social experience. no offense to any developer on this 
list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few rounds of super 
street fighter IV or some rock band than play most accessible games. 
why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing the exact same 
offline mode over and over. even if street fighter didn't have online 
features it would have been much more replayable than any accessible 
game out there mostly due to the trial mode the game contains, which can 
keep you busy for months. in fact there are people who've yet to 
complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the game's been out for 
over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio games? back to 
online features. even the few audiogames that have online playability, 
we actually have to communicate through text, when most mainstream games 
are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that difficult to 
add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking because I like 
to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask me if we'll 
ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll never 
happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers want. 
and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 man 
operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, 
and get together and form a programming team. but give us something 
good. something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! 
this game completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands 
now, most of the audio games I've purchased I just 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi,
Eight years spent on coding, and let's add on jobs etc to that. Shall we
say...15 years?
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Hayden Presley
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:24 PM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Hi,
And sound...can you imagine playing the equivalent of Mortal Combat with
recorded sounds? Otherwise, you'd spend thousands upon thousands of dollars.
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Bryan Peterson
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because we 
are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd also 
have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. That's 
partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's cold hard 
fact.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
 well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
 There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think 
 bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank Commander,

 while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss 
 either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be 
 interested in taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply 
 recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought 
 up, with online features, would be great. I can only imagine playing 
 shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged 
 death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
 - Original Message - 
 From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact

 that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are,

 it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
 up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
 never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
 market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
 aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
 expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
 mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
 game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
 and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
 free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
 of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
 value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet.

 and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
 start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
 social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much

 rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some

 rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
 with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
 if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
 more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
 trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact

 there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV 
 and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims 
 about audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that 
 have online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, 
 when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is 
 it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm

 asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when 
 people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell 
 them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on 
 what the gamers want. 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Yohandy
ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just keep 
things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio games are 
concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your own. how 
will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll still be a 
1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it should never 
happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders clones forever 
with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is most people on 
here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. Some of us here 
grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out there and what's 
possible, but many on here would be happy to play troopinam for years to 
come with no complaints and it's simply frustrating. I think some people 
here wouldn't care if we ever got good games or not because they're just 
satisfied with what they already have and that's really sad, not because the 
game is or isn't a good one, but because this level of resignation is what's 
holding us back. then again, perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're 
considering spending your money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy 
product, how about purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly 
out there gaming wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and 
determine if I'm write or not. if there's no interest for this out there, 
it'll never happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every 
gaming convention out there trying to make a difference instead of spending 
it on iphones.




- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact 
there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV 
and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims 
about audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that 
have online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, 
when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is 
it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm 
asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when 
people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell 
them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on 
what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio 
games are only a 1 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your 
game if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the same 
programming language you do, and get together and form a programming 
team. but give us something good. something that we can be proud of 15 
years from now and say wow! this game completely 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Charles Rivard
Any interest in learning the programming in order to help the cause?  If I 
had the time, I would.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio 
games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your 
own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll 
still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it 
should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders 
clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is 
most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. 
Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out 
there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to play 
troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply 
frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good 
games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have 
and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but 
because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again, 
perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your 
money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about 
purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming 
wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm write 
or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. If 
I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming convention 
out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it on iphones.




- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional 
levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable 
content free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people 
get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have 
much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't 
been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about 
time developers start adding an online component to their titles to make 
games a more social experience. no offense to any developer on this 
list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few rounds of super 
street fighter IV or some rock band than play most accessible games. 
why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing the exact same 
offline mode over and over. even if street fighter didn't have online 
features it would have been much more replayable than any accessible 
game out there mostly due to the trial mode the game contains, which can 
keep you busy for months. in fact there are people who've yet to 
complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the game's been out for 
over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio games? back to 
online features. even the few audiogames that have online playability, 
we actually have to communicate through text, when most mainstream games 
are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that difficult to 
add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking because I like 
to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask me if we'll 
ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll never 
happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers want. 
and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Bryan Peterson
Exactly. I know of a lot of people, some right here on this list, who 
wouldn't be willing to wait that long, much less without hounding the 
developer so much that the dev became burned out as Thomas has with MOTA. 
And he's only been working on this project for about four years overall. 
We're a small enough market that realistically what you're suggesting is all 
but impossible.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact 
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are, 
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames 
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys 
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these 
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new 
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial 
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels 
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content 
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored 
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay 
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. 
and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers 
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more 
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much 
rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some 
rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting 
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even 
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact 
there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV 
and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims 
about audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that 
have online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, 
when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is 
it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm 
asking because I like to be informed on these things. This is why when 
people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell 
them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating on 
what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio 
games are only a 1 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your 
game if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the same 
programming language you do, and get together and form a programming 
team. but give us something good. something that we can be proud of 15 
years from now and say wow! this game completely revolutionized the audio 
game market! as it stands now, most of the audio games I've purchased I 
just beat once in about an hour or so and never play it again, and this 
is probably true for many people on here. something needs to change, 
and it's up to all of us, developers and gamers aliketo make it 
happen!



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org.
If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the 
list,

please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.



---
Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org
If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to 
gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org.

You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org.
All messages are archived and can be searched and read at
http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org.
If you have any 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Bryan Peterson
That's exactly what I was getting at. I certainly wouldn't be willing to 
spend eight to ten years on one project, and to be quite frank I'm not 
necessarily enough of a team player to be willing to work with other people, 
not even people I knew well. That's an excellent way to potentially ruin 
friendships, particularly if you can't agree with your partner(s) on which 
way the game should go..

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


The one-man game developing company is not an excuse.  It's a fact, so, 
while it is a shame, we've got to consider it.  No ifs, ands, or buts.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because 
we are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd 
also have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. 
That's partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's 
cold hard fact.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I 
think bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank 
Commander, while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens 
wouldn't be amiss either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I 
for one would be interested in taking that job. especially since the 
cutseens are simply recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the 
same games I brought up, with online features, would be great. I can 
only imagine playing shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other 
people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those 
additional levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the 
downloadable content free and sell even more copies of that particular 
game. people get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game 
doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why 
this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I 
think it's about time developers start adding an online component to 
their titles to make games a more social experience. no offense to any 
developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few 
rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play most 
accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing 
the exact same offline mode over and over. even if street fighter 
didn't have online features it would have been much more replayable 
than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode the 
game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about 
audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have 
online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when 
most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it 
all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm 
asking because I like to be informed on these things. 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Bryan Peterson
And that's another valid point. Those cheapskates who can't be bothered to 
pay for a game are often only too happy to help others of their ilk obtain 
illegal copies of games, and unless we obtain copyrights for our products, 
which can be quite expensive, there's really nothing we can do about it, 
especially if the game is based on something that's also copyrighted.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Mauricio Almeida mauricio...@uol.com.br

To: gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



alright mate.
when i'm milionaire with my web business i'll shoot it down and program
games you classify as good.
for now, i will program what i have teh time to program.
you have to consider that the blind public is not even one quarter of
teh sighted public, and with the crackes out there noone would make real
money out of it, which would be quite frustrating, since whomever the
man developer is would have spent years in programming.

mauricio
-Mensagem original-
De: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
Para: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Data: Quinta, 27 de Maio de 2010 21:12
Assunto: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Any interest in learning the programming in order to help the cause?  If I
had the time, I would.
- Original Message -
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just
keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio
games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your
own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll
still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it
should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space 
invaders

clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is
most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to.
Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out
there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to play
troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply
frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good
games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have
and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but
because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again,
perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your
money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about
purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming
wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm 
write

or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. If
I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming convention
out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it on iphones.



- Original Message -
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message -
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers.
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those 
additional

levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable
content free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people
get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have
much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't
been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about
time developers start adding an online component to their titles to 
make

games a more 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Ken
Yes, and by the end of that time, Vista, windows 7 and whatever else we'd be 
coding for would be history.





Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point?
Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing 
therapeutic massage,

$65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.)
Call 419-577-7973
I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, 
relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and 
nervous anxiety...

Ken Downey, LMT

President of Blind Comfort!
The Caring Without the Staring
and
DreamtechInteractive
- Original Message - 
From: Hayden Presley hdpres...@hotmail.com

To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Hi,
Eight years spent on coding, and let's add on jobs etc to that. Shall we
say...15 years?
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Hayden Presley
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:24 PM
To: 'Gamers Discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Hi,
And sound...can you imagine playing the equivalent of Mortal Combat with
recorded sounds? Otherwise, you'd spend thousands upon thousands of 
dollars.

Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Bryan Peterson
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because 
we

are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd also
have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention licensing. 
That's

partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an excuse, it's cold hard
fact.
We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as
well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that.
There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I think
bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank 
Commander,



while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens wouldn't be amiss
either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I for one would be
interested in taking that job. especially since the cutseens are simply
recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the same games I brought
up, with online features, would be great. I can only imagine playing
shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other people in a full-fledged
death match. Especially GTC. It would be great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact


that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they 
are,



it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep
up the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game
never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames
market, and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys
aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these
expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new
mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the initial
game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional levels
and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content
free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people get bored
of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have much replay
value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't been done 
yet.



and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about time developers
start adding an online component to their titles to make games a more
social experience. no offense to any developer on this list, but I'd 
much


rather go online and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or 
some



rock band than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting
with people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even
if street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much
more replayable 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Ken
One of the best gaming experiences I have had is in playing Quake, talking 
to the other players using Teamtalk.  The only way that could have been 
better is if Teamtalk could have positioned players' audio so you could hear 
where they were.





Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point?
Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing 
therapeutic massage,

$65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.)
Call 419-577-7973
I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, 
relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and 
nervous anxiety...

Ken Downey, LMT

President of Blind Comfort!
The Caring Without the Staring
and
DreamtechInteractive
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.



when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the fact
that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if they are,
it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out just to keep 
up
the hype and keep people buying, then after that the game 
never

gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting the audiogames market,
and developers are losing potential customers. what you guys aren't
realizing is that people are even willing to pay for these expansions.
mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a new mainstream FPS game
comes out and new levels are added after the initial game release, the
developer could charge $5 for those additional levels and those interested
will purchase it. or offer the downloadable content free and sell even 
more

copies of that particular game. people get bored of the same old stuff,
especially if the game doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I
don't understand why this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the 
only
problem. I think it's about time developers start adding an online 
component

to their titles to make games a more social experience. no offense to any
developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few 
rounds

of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play most accessible
games. why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing the exact 
same

offline mode over and over. even if street fighter didn't have online
features it would have been much more replayable than any accessible game
out there mostly due to the trial mode the game contains, which can keep 
you
busy for months. in fact there are people who've yet to complete trial 
mode

on street Fighter IV and the game's been out for over a year! can you guys
make such claims about audio games? back to online features. even the few
audiogames that have online playability, we actually have to communicate
through text, when most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even
video chat! Is it all that difficult to add voice chat to games? I'm no
developer so I'm asking because I like to be informed on these things. 
This
is why when people ask me if we'll ever catch up to the mainstream market, 
I

tell them that it'll never happen. devs need to really start concentrating
on what the gamers want. and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio
games are only a 1 man operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your 
game

if it takes that long, or Find developers who use the same programming
language you do, and get together and form a programming team. but give us
something good. something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and 
say
wow! this game completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it 
stands

now, most of the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an
hour or so and never play it again, and this is probably true for many
people on here. something needs to change, and it's up to all of us,
developers and gamers aliketo make it happen!


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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Hayden Presley
Hi Yahondy,
Sigh. We never said we wouldn't do it. That's not the issue. You are right,
it is hard. You mentioned Street Fighter IV. How many devs do you think were
working on that game? I grant you, I'd like to see some mainstream titles
myself, but the way you are going about it, it sounds like a slap in the
face to many devs of blind games. I don't want to start an argument, but you
do have to look at it from the programmers' perspective.
Best Regards,
Hayden

-Original Message-
From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Rivard
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:12 PM
To: Gamers Discussion list
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

Any interest in learning the programming in order to help the cause?  If I 
had the time, I would.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
 keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio 
 games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your 
 own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll 
 still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it 
 should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space invaders

 clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating thing is 
 most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great games to. 
 Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know what's out 
 there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to play 
 troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply 
 frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good 
 games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have 
 and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but 
 because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again, 
 perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your 
 money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about 
 purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming 
 wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm write

 or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never happen. If 
 I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming convention 
 out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it on iphones.



 - Original Message - 
 From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
 produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
 one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
 - Original Message - 
 From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com
 To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
 Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
 Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


 when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
 fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
 they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
 just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
 that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
 the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
 what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
 for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
 new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
 initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional

 levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable 
 content free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people 
 get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have 
 much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't 
 been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about 
 time developers start adding an online component to their titles to make

 games a more social experience. no offense to any developer on this 
 list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few rounds of super 
 street fighter IV or some rock band than play most accessible games. 
 why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing the exact same 
 offline mode over and over. even if street fighter didn't have online 
 features it would have been much more replayable than any accessible 
 game out there mostly due to the trial mode the game contains, which 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Christopher Bartlett
Lest all be doom and gloom, I'd like to point out two counterexamples, being
Entombed and Time of Conflict.  Both David Greenwood and Jason Allen have
been supporting the heck out of their respective new titles.  There was a
period for Entombed where we had six releases within 7 days to try and fix a
set of bugs introduced in a new feature.  David is creating an on-line
component for ToC.  Greenwood's games are of a complexity that dwarfs most
other offerings in the market, and Allen's reconception of the rogue-like
games is addictive and has lots of replay value.

Most important of all, both of these developers have created and nourished
vibrant communities around their games.  Participants are encouraged to
submit ideas, bug reports and suggestions for the direction of the games in
question, and we see those suggestions being implemented.  As an example, I
wrote a several-page initial review and wish list for ToC when I first got
it.  The most recent revision incorporates some of the more important items
on my wish list and hints David has given lead me to suspect that more are
coming, as well as lots of cool stuff I never thought of.

I would hold these developers up as examples of what can be accomplished by
the canonical one-man shop.  Crowd-sourcing creative development, at least
to the extent of welcoming and taking the best of user input solves one part
of the problem.  Good and constant communications with the user base makes
users willing to be patient.

And lest those of us on the extreme fringe of complexity-seeking get too
complacent, remember that a lot of the sighted market is content with less
complex games too.  My wife, who is sighted would far rather play Bejeweled,
or Peggle than any FPS (they make her sick) or complex combat sim.  The
casual gaming market is every bit as important as the hard core market.
Does that mean devs may spend time on these games that they could be
spending on something more hard core?  Of course.  And rightly so from a
business perspective.

I get the sense that many devs create the games they have wanted to play,
rather than having a business plan that says, I'll corner this part of the
market with this title and go after the granny-gamers with this one and get
the hard-core teens with Blood and Iron XII.  Let's be real, this isn't
something you do for a living, it's a labor of love.

Still, it's a business and needs to conducted as such by those who wish to
charge for their efforts.  Then again, I haven't found a free game that has
held my interest for more than a few minutes, so I'll continue to
selectively buy what I like, and if the developer is willing to listen to my
thoughts, he or she will win my loyalty.  I've bought everything GMA
produced except the VIP mud client, which I just wouldn't use.  I will
continue this record as long as David keeps producing games.

Christopher Bartlett



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You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Lisa Hayes
And what sighted developer works eight to ten years on one game, that market 
would fall apart if that were the case.

Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


That's exactly what I was getting at. I certainly wouldn't be willing to 
spend eight to ten years on one project, and to be quite frank I'm not 
necessarily enough of a team player to be willing to work with other 
people, not even people I knew well. That's an excellent way to 
potentially ruin friendships, particularly if you can't agree with your 
partner(s) on which way the game should go..

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


The one-man game developing company is not an excuse.  It's a fact, so, 
while it is a shame, we've got to consider it.  No ifs, ands, or buts.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Problem is there are a great number of people who wouldn't be willing to 
wait ten years for these games. I'm not saying we're not behind, because 
we are, but it's probably never going to happen. As has been pointed out 
endlessly, most developers are just single people, and even if you could 
find other programmers who used the same languages and whatnot, you'd 
also have to agree on creative matters as well, not to mention 
licensing. That's partly why Castle Quest was scrapped. It's not an 
excuse, it's cold hard fact.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: clement chou chou.clem...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 2010 8:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Here here. I second that notion. Also, I think sequels are iportant as 
well. a shades of dom 2, or a GMA tank Cmmander 2, something like that. 
There are so many games with the potential to have sequels. Also, I 
think bigger games need to start having cutseens. Games like GMA Tank 
Commander, while the radio transmitions are great, actual cutseens 
wouldn't be amiss either Voice actors might take a while to find, but I 
for one would be interested in taking that job. especially since the 
cutseens are simply recordings with voice and sound, no video. And the 
same games I brought up, with online features, would be great. I can 
only imagine playing shades of doom or tank commander with 6 other 
people in a full-fledged death match. Especially GTC. It would be 
great.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 4:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then 
after that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is 
hurting the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential 
customers. what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even 
willing to pay for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the 
time. let's say a new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are 
added after the initial game release, the developer could charge $5 
for those additional levels and those interested will purchase it. or 
offer the downloadable content free and sell even more copies of that 
particular game. people get bored of the same old stuff, especially if 
the game doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't 
understand why this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the only 
problem. I think it's about time developers start adding an online 
component to their titles to make games a more social experience. no 
offense to any developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online 
and play a few rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band 
than play most accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with 
people, not playing the exact same offline mode over and over. even if 
street fighter didn't have online features it would have been much 
more replayable than any accessible game out there mostly due to the 
trial mode the game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in 
fact there are people who've yet to complete trial mode on street 
Fighter IV and the game's been 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread Lisa Hayes

so the heck would I.  I've got ideas, but no programming knowledge.
Lisa Hayes




www.nutrimetics.com.au/lisahayes

- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Any interest in learning the programming in order to help the cause?  If I 
had the time, I would.
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


ok guys, I'm willing to hear your suggestions then. what do we do? just 
keep things the way they are and never have any advancement where audio 
games are concerned? don't shoot down my ideas, come up with some of your 
own. how will things be different in a few years? they wouldn't be. it'll 
still be a 1 man developer job. so because it's hard does it mean it 
should never happen? are most blind gamers destined to play space 
invaders clones forever with mediocre sound effects? see the frustrating 
thing is most people on here have nothing to compare the lack of great 
games to. Some of us here grew up playing mainstream games, so we know 
what's out there and what's possible, but many on here would be happy to 
play troopinam for years to come with no complaints and it's simply 
frustrating. I think some people here wouldn't care if we ever got good 
games or not because they're just satisfied with what they already have 
and that's really sad, not because the game is or isn't a good one, but 
because this level of resignation is what's holding us back. then again, 
perhaps gamers are to blame? next time you're considering spending your 
money on the newest shiniest iphone or blindy product, how about 
purchasing an actual console and check out what's truly out there gaming 
wise? then you guys can make your own decisions and determine if I'm 
write or not. if there's no interest for this out there, it'll never 
happen. If I had the money, I'd be at e3 every year and at every gaming 
convention out there trying to make a difference instead of spending it 
on iphones.




- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those 
additional levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the 
downloadable content free and sell even more copies of that particular 
game. people get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game 
doesn't have much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why 
this hasn't been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I 
think it's about time developers start adding an online component to 
their titles to make games a more social experience. no offense to any 
developer on this list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few 
rounds of super street fighter IV or some rock band than play most 
accessible games. why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing 
the exact same offline mode over and over. even if street fighter 
didn't have online features it would have been much more replayable 
than any accessible game out there mostly due to the trial mode the 
game contains, which can keep you busy for months. in fact there are 
people who've yet to complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the 
game's been out for over a year! can you guys make such claims about 
audio games? back to online features. even the few audiogames that have 
online playability, we actually have to communicate through text, when 
most mainstream games are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it 
all that difficult to add 

Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread dark

Hi Yohandi,

firstly, I will point out that many games actually do do the expantion bit 
your talking about. Entombed, rail racer, sound rts, che's card games 
topspeed, all have lots of expandable content, through user created 
stuff, --- in fact Ithink this is really going to take off when entombed's 
dungeon creator is released.


Second, as regards online play, that is already being added to as many games 
in as efficient a way as possible,  sound rts and toc already have this 
and as Phil said it's looking at being added to more games, however lso bare 
in mind there are people (myself included), who are more concerned about a 
complete single player experience than online interaction,   so saying 
all games should have this doesn't take into account our taste.


finally, the most major and complete thing to remember is resources.

Capcom had a massive team of people working on Streetfighter Iv for four a 
pretty solid couple of years. For Streetfighter I don't know figures, but i 
do know the latest mortal combat titles have about 100-150 full time 
programmers working on the game, testing it, putting it through it's paces.


Find 150 programmers who will work on an audio game for 2 years, --- and 
then you might well get the same result.


For a fairer comparison it's more reasonable to compare audio games to 
independent graphical pc games developed with a similar amount of resources 
and by a similar number of people.


One game for example which I play (not accessible unfortunately), is the 
game Hurrican.


This is a very large exploration 2D platform shooter similar to Metroid or 
Mega man.


it has many features, great sound and environments, and even a level 
creation tool which some people have used to make extra levels. However, 
while it's certainly as good as games produced 15 years ago on the 
Snes,  and graphically probably equaling a ps1 game,  can it equal 
games produced now?  hell no!


And how long did it take to develope?  five! years! yes, five! years! 
for a game which is 10-15 years behind what is produced by companies like 
capcom.


That is really the bottom line. Comparing audio games to games like 
streetfighter Iv, is like comparing a delivery boy with a bicicle to UPs, 
and asking why the delivery boy can't have that package in Hongkong tomorrow 
morning!


Beware the grue!

Dark. 



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread dark
While I appreciate your frustration, I think your assessment that no 
developement is being done is,  well just plane wrong.


Even in the five years that I've been playing audio games, I've noticed a 
change, larger and more complex games, games with online competition, and 
games with user created content.


As technology improves in developement, so the games will improve, just at a 
slower wrate than mainstream ones.


For a truer comparison, try looking around at some of the independently 
produced pc games,  look at the Smugglers series for instance, same 
number of devs and amount of resources.


and, as for suggestions, well I do have several,  but they're mostly 
being taken into considderation already.


The first, is user created content. level editers, sound editers etc. while 
these are harder to produce, they don't half expand the game. For a look at 
what effect they can have look at Jim's golf game.


Many games though, are now doing this extremely, entombed, Rail Racer, time 
of conflict sound rts etc.


If for example shades of doom had an easily usable level creator which would 
let you set where the monsters appeared, and make new monsters and items for 
the game,  well we'd probably see a good few expantions.


The second thought I have on expantion, is randomness. the more monsters etc 
are just placed in one place, the less replay a game has.


A brilliant example of this is Q9. A simple arcade style game, but you never 
know where the monsters will appear, thus making it very fresh to play each 
time,  ditto with tom's game.


Another suggestion I have is exploration (especially when combined with 
randomness as in entombed). The more area in a game you need to explore, the 
longer it'll take you to finish.


A final thought is using the online play we have. Afterall, Toc will be far 
more interesting when it's possible to play against a number of humans than 
against the computer. This might not be super fast voice chat,  but it 
does the job, and provides a varied playing experience, particularly in 
games like stratogy games where there is considderable variation in a 
players' possible actions.


Luckily though, these are all trends which are actually being expanded upon 
anyway, and probably will continue to be in the future.


Beware the grue!

Dark.



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Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.

2010-05-27 Thread dark
Again though, this is why user tools to create stuff in games help, sinse 
you can do it without learning programming.


Thus, while I personally have decided programming pluss a phd is a bad 
combination, I am looking forward to trying out the entombed Editer very 
much.


Beware the grue!

Dark.
- Original Message - 
From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Friday, May 28, 2010 3:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Exactly. I know of a lot of people, some right here on this list, who 
wouldn't be willing to wait that long, much less without hounding the 
developer so much that the dev became burned out as Thomas has with MOTA. 
And he's only been working on this project for about four years overall. 
We're a small enough market that realistically what you're suggesting is 
all but impossible.

We are the Knights who say...Ni!
- Original Message - 
From: Charles Rivard woofer...@sbcglobal.net

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


Where would be the profit in a game that takes, for example, 8 years to 
produce?  More importantly, would devs be willing to spend that long on 
one project?  Would gamers be willing to wait that long for a game?
- Original Message - 
From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com

To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org
Sent: Thursday, May 27, 2010 7:39 PM
Subject: [Audyssey] a drastic change is needed for audio games.


when it comes to audio games, something I find quite annoying is the 
fact that many games aren't supported after initial release. even if 
they are, it's usually a small update a few days after game comes out 
just to keep up the hype and keep people buying, then after 
that the game never gets any sort of expansion. I think this is hurting 
the audiogames market, and developers are losing potential customers. 
what you guys aren't realizing is that people are even willing to pay 
for these expansions. mainstream titles do it all the time. let's say a 
new mainstream FPS game comes out and new levels are added after the 
initial game release, the developer could charge $5 for those additional 
levels and those interested will purchase it. or offer the downloadable 
content free and sell even more copies of that particular game. people 
get bored of the same old stuff, especially if the game doesn't have 
much replay value. we need DLC, and I don't understand why this hasn't 
been done yet. and that's not even the only problem. I think it's about 
time developers start adding an online component to their titles to make 
games a more social experience. no offense to any developer on this 
list, but I'd much rather go online and play a few rounds of super 
street fighter IV or some rock band than play most accessible games. 
why? because I'm interacting with people, not playing the exact same 
offline mode over and over. even if street fighter didn't have online 
features it would have been much more replayable than any accessible 
game out there mostly due to the trial mode the game contains, which can 
keep you busy for months. in fact there are people who've yet to 
complete trial mode on street Fighter IV and the game's been out for 
over a year! can you guys make such claims about audio games? back to 
online features. even the few audiogames that have online playability, 
we actually have to communicate through text, when most mainstream games 
are using voice chat, and even video chat! Is it all that difficult to 
add voice chat to games? I'm no developer so I'm asking because I like 
to be informed on these things. This is why when people ask me if we'll 
ever catch up to the mainstream market, I tell them that it'll never 
happen. devs need to really start concentrating on what the gamers want. 
and please I don't want to hear the oh but audio games are only a 1 man 
operation excuse. Take 10 years to develop your game if it takes that 
long, or Find developers who use the same programming language you do, 
and get together and form a programming team. but give us something 
good. something that we can be proud of 15 years from now and say wow! 
this game completely revolutionized the audio game market! as it stands 
now, most of the audio games I've purchased I just beat once in about an 
hour or so and never play it again, and this is probably true for many 
people on here. something needs to change, and it's up to all of us, 
developers and gamers aliketo make it happen!



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