Re: [Audyssey] working alone was Getting the key to the lockbox?
HI, Not a single problem with working alone. But keep in mind that in many occasions you get more exp working in groups. And later on the quests and monsters get tougher so grouping is advised. BTW, what is the name of your character in Alter? Shermanator - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 3:22 PM I prefer to work alone. But thou must! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working alone was Getting the key to the lockbox?
His name is Loren. He's a Mage/ClericThief who's at tis moment tring to complete the quests in Bandera Azul. But thou must! On 5/3/2013 3:43 PM, Richard Sherman wrote: HI, Not a single problem with working alone. But keep in mind that in many occasions you get more exp working in groups. And later on the quests and monsters get tougher so grouping is advised. BTW, what is the name of your character in Alter? Shermanator - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson bpeterson2...@cableone.net Sent: Friday, May 03, 2013 3:22 PM I prefer to work alone. But thou must! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
I want to include some experiences and information. First of all, I have sparred with my sighted friend. He and I are both pretty good, and by sparring, I mean we actually came away with bruises from the various weapons we used. It is not difficult, given the right situation and environment, to actually note the stance of your opponent and the position fo their weapon and block and attack. Many martial arts include a blind fighting test as part of their mastery testing. Also, I think that there is a big difference between those who have lost their sight and those who never had it to begin with. If I had to guess, Tom, you either never had sight or lost it a long time ago. Dark, you had sight, were familiar with that perspective, then lost it. The reason that this is different is that I can relate to the guesswork thing as a blind person who never had sight. All the mainstream games I've ever played involved some level of guesswork. I remember playing dark forces, the star wars game. I could shoot storm troopers and such, but I couldn't do more without a lot of painstaking effort and some guesswork. I had to use the infinite ammo cheat so I could shoot at walls with my gun like a sort of zappy sonar. I played other games like that too, but I doubt anyone ever heard of take no prisoners, even if it rocked. I think that there are some experiences, backed up by physiology and psychology that blind persons who have been blind from or from near birth, will have differently than will their sighted counterparts. It is documented fact that the auditory and visual cortecies in the brain are similarly structured and proximal to one another. If the visual cortex is unused, the auditory cortex will spread into it and use it for extra processing power, and vice versa. Basically, I thought the thing about blind people having better hearing and such was bull, but then I learned that it isn't necessarily tripe after all, it just depends on how plastic, that is how changeable, the brain is and in what stage blindness occurs. This doesn't mean that blind people can't unite in a common goal, or that sighted and blind people will necessarily play their games separately forever, but there is a difference in perspective. I'll use the very gap-bridging game of Swamp, briefly. I play like a typical blind person, because I am. I shoot from afar or close up with sound. My wife tries to use both, and she usually spazzes when a zombie is close up, and she's getting better, therefore, at aiming by sound. My friend, however, uses his assault rifle to attract a hoarde of zombies close enough to see, then blasts them all with pinpoint accuracy because he can see. A very accessible game, played with three different perspectives. The fact is that we all bring different abilities and disabilities to the table. My wife's spazzing at zombies is her disability. My friend's inability to aim with sound is his. My blindness and lack of quick visual accuracy is mine. That, in my oppinion, is the way life works. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a blind experience of the world whicch nobody else can understand or participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which blindness doesn't affect. perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, would probably be different. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Sure. However, my basic point is that you have some vision therefore simple 2d graphics vs 3d graphics makes a huge difference in how you play said games. I have absolutely no site so the graphical representation on the screen makes absolutely no difference to me. I have to put the same effort into playing no matter what kind of graphics are used because all I have is the audio output. If the audio output is terrible I have no access at all and if the audio output is great then there is a higher degree of access. I do agree in some cases some things are equally accessible between sighted and blind consumers, but I still maintain most things do require more effort as a rule
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dakotah, I had sight growing up, but lost it as a teenager. I'm not sure where that puts me in the adaptation to blindness argument, but I'm sure I was able to adapt quicker and easier than someone twice my age.However, as you say there have been some studies that the brain is able to adapt to the lack of sight at a younger age than at an older age and as a result there may be a wide degree of interpretation of what is and isn't accessible for that person. It sounds to me there needs to be more study on this subject. Cheers! On 7/25/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: I want to include some experiences and information. First of all, I have sparred with my sighted friend. He and I are both pretty good, and by sparring, I mean we actually came away with bruises from the various weapons we used. It is not difficult, given the right situation and environment, to actually note the stance of your opponent and the position fo their weapon and block and attack. Many martial arts include a blind fighting test as part of their mastery testing. Also, I think that there is a big difference between those who have lost their sight and those who never had it to begin with. If I had to guess, Tom, you either never had sight or lost it a long time ago. Dark, you had sight, were familiar with that perspective, then lost it. The reason that this is different is that I can relate to the guesswork thing as a blind person who never had sight. All the mainstream games I've ever played involved some level of guesswork. I remember playing dark forces, the star wars game. I could shoot storm troopers and such, but I couldn't do more without a lot of painstaking effort and some guesswork. I had to use the infinite ammo cheat so I could shoot at walls with my gun like a sort of zappy sonar. I played other games like that too, but I doubt anyone ever heard of take no prisoners, even if it rocked. I think that there are some experiences, backed up by physiology and psychology that blind persons who have been blind from or from near birth, will have differently than will their sighted counterparts. It is documented fact that the auditory and visual cortecies in the brain are similarly structured and proximal to one another. If the visual cortex is unused, the auditory cortex will spread into it and use it for extra processing power, and vice versa. Basically, I thought the thing about blind people having better hearing and such was bull, but then I learned that it isn't necessarily tripe after all, it just depends on how plastic, that is how changeable, the brain is and in what stage blindness occurs. This doesn't mean that blind people can't unite in a common goal, or that sighted and blind people will necessarily play their games separately forever, but there is a difference in perspective. I'll use the very gap-bridging game of Swamp, briefly. I play like a typical blind person, because I am. I shoot from afar or close up with sound. My wife tries to use both, and she usually spazzes when a zombie is close up, and she's getting better, therefore, at aiming by sound. My friend, however, uses his assault rifle to attract a hoarde of zombies close enough to see, then blasts them all with pinpoint accuracy because he can see. A very accessible game, played with three different perspectives. The fact is that we all bring different abilities and disabilities to the table. My wife's spazzing at zombies is her disability. My friend's inability to aim with sound is his. My blindness and lack of quick visual accuracy is mine. That, in my oppinion, is the way life works. Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Absolutely, one hundred ten percent agreement. If I liked doing research, I might go for my PH.D. in Psychology and pursue it. However, I'm happy to make suggestions and stick with reading about it. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 8/4/12, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Dakotah, I had sight growing up, but lost it as a teenager. I'm not sure where that puts me in the adaptation to blindness argument, but I'm sure I was able to adapt quicker and easier than someone twice my age.However, as you say there have been some studies that the brain is able to adapt to the lack of sight at a younger age than at an older age and as a result there may be a wide degree of interpretation of what is and isn't accessible for that person. It sounds to me there needs to be more study on this subject. Cheers! On 7/25/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: I want to include some experiences and information. First of all, I have sparred with my sighted friend. He and I are both pretty good, and by sparring, I mean we actually came away with bruises from the various weapons we used. It is not difficult, given the right situation and environment, to actually note the stance of your opponent and the position fo their weapon and block and attack. Many martial arts include a blind fighting test as part of their mastery testing. Also, I think that there is a big difference between those who have lost their sight and those who never had it to begin with. If I had to guess, Tom, you either never had sight or lost it a long time ago. Dark, you had sight, were familiar with that perspective, then lost it. The reason that this is different is that I can relate to the guesswork thing as a blind person who never had sight. All the mainstream games I've ever played involved some level of guesswork. I remember playing dark forces, the star wars game. I could shoot storm troopers and such, but I couldn't do more without a lot of painstaking effort and some guesswork. I had to use the infinite ammo cheat so I could shoot at walls with my gun like a sort of zappy sonar. I played other games like that too, but I doubt anyone ever heard of take no prisoners, even if it rocked. I think that there are some experiences, backed up by physiology and psychology that blind persons who have been blind from or from near birth, will have differently than will their sighted counterparts. It is documented fact that the auditory and visual cortecies in the brain are similarly structured and proximal to one another. If the visual cortex is unused, the auditory cortex will spread into it and use it for extra processing power, and vice versa. Basically, I thought the thing about blind people having better hearing and such was bull, but then I learned that it isn't necessarily tripe after all, it just depends on how plastic, that is how changeable, the brain is and in what stage blindness occurs. This doesn't mean that blind people can't unite in a common goal, or that sighted and blind people will necessarily play their games separately forever, but there is a difference in perspective. I'll use the very gap-bridging game of Swamp, briefly. I play like a typical blind person, because I am. I shoot from afar or close up with sound. My wife tries to use both, and she usually spazzes when a zombie is close up, and she's getting better, therefore, at aiming by sound. My friend, however, uses his assault rifle to attract a hoarde of zombies close enough to see, then blasts them all with pinpoint accuracy because he can see. A very accessible game, played with three different perspectives. The fact is that we all bring different abilities and disabilities to the table. My wife's spazzing at zombies is her disability. My friend's inability to aim with sound is his. My blindness and lack of quick visual accuracy is mine. That, in my oppinion, is the way life works. Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dakotah, I am a moderator and I agree with you. I think that while the subject was interesting we have gotten so far off the topic that we should close down the topic here. I don't see anything really new about V.R. gaming etc so let's just wrap up this subject and move on. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: I have come to an important conclusion. I am not a moderator, not at all, but I strongly suggest we stop this topic here. There's nothing more to say than we've already said. There really isn't much more to say on holodecks, virtual reality, blindness and its perspectives, savantism, or music. I hope that everyone will raise their glass to a good, well-rounded, huge topic that's about as off- as one can get. Here's to a good discussion left to end gracefully. Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi yohandi. I've actually heard a lot about him before, however my point is that his ability doesn't have anything to do with being blind. there have always been savants, people who are usually considdered autistic but have a certain ability with music or mathematics, indeed I once read a paper that suggested it's due to a specific neurological occurrance which results in both the lack of usual brain function and enhancement of specific areas, however this has bugger all to do with blindness. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Origi --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
This stuff's all theoretical. no one knows exactly how savantism occurs, but I certainly think autism has something to do with it, since most savants show autism tendencies, or are severely autistic. no it doesn't have to do with blindness, but there's clearly something there that enhances savant's ability to do these things. whatever it is, it is something the rest of us can't tap into. My point is that not every talented person is so due to just pure practice. sometimes there are certain circumstances involved. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi yohandi. I've actually heard a lot about him before, however my point is that his ability doesn't have anything to do with being blind. there have always been savants, people who are usually considdered autistic but have a certain ability with music or mathematics, indeed I once read a paper that suggested it's due to a specific neurological occurrance which results in both the lack of usual brain function and enhancement of specific areas, however this has bugger all to do with blindness. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Origi --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Actually this isn't at all theoretical. People have had a significant understanding of how to cause this phenomenon in non-savants for many years now, with transcranial magnetic stimulation. Not only that, but this technique is being explored for use in the military to drastically abbreviate the training necessary for people to become experts at identifying enemy targets from footage of areal drones. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/22/magazine/22SAVANT.html?pagewanted=all Now, to keep this relevant to this list, I hadn't thought about this before this topic came up, but I wonder if this technique could also have applications in virtual reality / gaming? Can you imagine how amazing it would be to be fully imersed in a virtual environment since it would be coming directly from your own brain? this would truly be even better than a holodeck experience as it would be absolutely real to you. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:43 AM, Yohandy wrote: This stuff's all theoretical. no one knows exactly how savantism occurs, but I certainly think autism has something to do with it, since most savants show autism tendencies, or are severely autistic. no it doesn't have to do with blindness, but there's clearly something there that enhances savant's ability to do these things. whatever it is, it is something the rest of us can't tap into. My point is that not every talented person is so due to just pure practice. sometimes there are certain circumstances involved. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi yohandi. I've actually heard a lot about him before, however my point is that his ability doesn't have anything to do with being blind. there have always been savants, people who are usually considdered autistic but have a certain ability with music or mathematics, indeed I once read a paper that suggested it's due to a specific neurological occurrance which results in both the lack of usual brain function and enhancement of specific areas, however this has bugger all to do with blindness. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Origi --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases it is because sight allows for obtainment of visual data and that the brain is more properly equipped to make decisions based on visual data. I'm not spouting nonsense. I'm putting forth fact. But my basic point remains the same throughout. SOme people can do some things better. Others do other things better. Hence diversity, hence an interesting world. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/26/12, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Actually this isn't at all theoretical. People have had a significant understanding of how to cause this phenomenon in non-savants for many years now, with transcranial magnetic stimulation. Not only that, but this technique is being explored for use in the military to drastically abbreviate the training necessary for people to become experts at identifying enemy targets from footage of areal drones. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/06/22/magazine/22SAVANT.html?pagewanted=all Now, to keep this relevant to this list, I hadn't thought about this before this topic came up, but I wonder if this technique could also have applications in virtual reality / gaming? Can you imagine how amazing it would be to be fully imersed in a virtual environment since it would be coming directly from your own brain? this would truly be even better than a holodeck experience as it would be absolutely real to you. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 26, 2012, at 4:43 AM, Yohandy wrote: This stuff's all theoretical. no one knows exactly how savantism occurs, but I certainly think autism has something to do with it, since most savants show autism tendencies, or are severely autistic. no it doesn't have to do with blindness, but there's clearly something there that enhances savant's ability to do these things. whatever it is, it is something the rest of us can't tap into. My point is that not every talented person is so due to just pure practice. sometimes there are certain circumstances involved. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:21 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi yohandi. I've actually heard a lot about him before, however my point is that his ability doesn't have anything to do with being blind. there have always been savants, people who are usually considdered autistic but have a certain ability
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dakotah, I couldn't agree with you more. Very well said indeed. My only comment when it comes to Matrix style brain gaming is that I think safety measures would be put in that would prevent most of the problems that might arise with normal person usage. For the disabled however, I can see it becoming very addictive and popular, if ever it happened. I mean, a paralyzed person would feel whole again, a blind person could see, deaf could hear, etc and so forth. Why would anyone disabled leave such an environment for reality? I guess I am talking beyond games to interconnectivity of brain with a computer simulation or even with others linked in. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases it is because sight allows for obtainment of visual data and that the brain is more properly equipped to make decisions based on visual data. I'm not spouting nonsense. I'm putting forth fact. But my basic point remains the same throughout. SOme people can do some things better. Others do other things better. Hence diversity, hence an interesting world. Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Yohandy, Yeah, this is really drifting off topic, but since you brought the subject up I'd like to make a quick point as I think it is important. Not just for music but any other kind of talent weather it is computer programming, playing games, or anything else you wish to mention. It is simply that the human mind is still a great mystery, and we still don't know much about how it works. What we do know is that different parts of the brain seem to be responsible for different things. That would explain how someone like Derek Paravicini might not be able to count to 10 but is a master pianist. Psychologists, neurologists, etc have known for quite some time that people who may be severely autistic in some areas are extremely talented or gifted in other areas. Sometimes above and beyond the norm. Its as though god, nature, fate, whatever you want to call it, takes away with one hand and gives back something else in return. The point being is that it isn't really a blind vs sighted issue you are discussing here. It is more an issue of how unique and unusual the human mind can be, and some times people are more unique than usual. Its one of those great mysteries science still has left to explain. Cheers! On 7/25/12, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: There are some true inexplicable mysteries out there though. This is a bit off topic, but since music came up I'd like to mention Derek Paravicini, the blind and severely autistic pianist. It would take a while to explain why this guy is so amazing, so I'll link you guys to a few videos. it'll give you an idea of what this guy's all about and his incredible improv skill and technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIigV7-kJk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztWqdEeyZQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINSQNo8-18 and last one is a documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibZudrZUto Now how could anything like this be explained logically? For all we know, this guy is the most talented pianist on earth, and that's no exageration. He can play any song, in any key, in any style he chooses. in fact he can play them chromatically. check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqvmPCDli0 he can compose songs on the spot, however he cannot count to 10. explain this. It's sorta hard not to compare pianists to this guy now. lol --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dakotah, YOu said snip There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. I agree, and this is also being proven of late in the sense of how much neuro-plasticity plays a part in restructuring the visual cortex to process audio and other sensory input. Supposedly people who lose their sight before the age of 15 (approximately) tend to show signal rerouting so that their visual cortex takes on the role of processing their other senses whereas those who lose their sight after show a more common picture of processing in their visual cortex. I.E. it still tends to process visual data even though their is none. So this seems likely to me that the person's psyche could be effected as well. To bring this back to the topic of autism, there have also been studies on similarities between blind people and autistics not in the sense of brain similarities but in the sense of manifestations of social skills. This obviously opens up a whole can of worms which I won't go into here, :) but suffice it to say that I personally agree that there seem to be differences in the demeanors of late vs early blinded peeps. (at least in my limited non-expert experience) :) I personally feel there are actually more categories than just these two supposed personality types but again, that's for another discussion list. Does this get back to the age-old question of whether some blind people are just better at hearing than their sighted counterparts? Personally, I saw no difference in my hearing from before I lost my sight as compared to after. So I think this is kind of a myth, however, as I mention above, there is research being done here now that may prove this to be true in some people's cases. Could some of us just be wired better for audio games? lol! On the subject of virtual reality via transcranial magnetic stimulation, as you allude to, I think great care needs to be taken in how this kind of technology is implemented and how this research is undertaken. Given that the article I posted is almost a decade old I think this actually bodes well on our restraint. To go further on this, I actually think we almost have innate safe-guards in place. People as a whole may not be willing to support this kind of research as it involves something very invasive. We don't want our brains being messed with! lol! :) So I think people for the most part will be the filter for this kind of technology so that it will come about in the time table that it should. I.E. When it finally happens, ideally we'd be a bit further along in our abilities to live in harmony with it. Perhaps we may not even want it when it is perfected. I wasn't aware of the cases you mention about people being catheterized but it doesn't surprise me. ;) It takes all types to make a world! lol! It feels even now, in this community that many people are severely addicted to games. So I agree with you that making this even more compelling could be very destructive for humanity. However, this also brings up a philosophical question of what we're living for and what we want our lives to be. How do we want this life to manifest? I.E. If a game or simulation can effectively become our life and seem as real as our physical life, and even be generated for us in the exact same way we experience our physical lives, (via our perceptions at the brain level) then what is our life? Is this not just a simulation of sorts already? Huge philosophical and religious questions could come up because of this sort of technology. I for one find it absolutely fascinating but as you say, it could basically destroy the fabric of our existence if we're not careful. It seems like the most amazing discoveries always can. :) Anyway, thanks for the very interesting and thought-provoking note. It will be interesting to see what the first gaming applications will be for transcranial magnetic stim technologies… Have an awesome day! Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Derek's level of ability becomes a lot more explicable though if you consider that the chap has spent more time each day of his life since a very young age at a piano than anywhere else, discounting sleep. It hasn't been just mindless plonking either, there have always been people around him who understand enough music theory to coach and encourage, those being there in addition to some of the finest tuition available. I guess it's fascinating to some how the raw talent was there in the first place, but talent plus insane amounts of practice usually equals virtuoso, Derek isn't an exception. He's an amazing musician for sure, but it's worth remembering how his days have been spent. All too often I see people asuming he just woke up one day as the player he is now. If only it were that easy! On 7/26/12, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: There are some true inexplicable mysteries out there though. This is a bit off topic, but since music came up I'd like to mention Derek Paravicini, the blind and severely autistic pianist. It would take a while to explain why this guy is so amazing, so I'll link you guys to a few videos. it'll give you an idea of what this guy's all about and his incredible improv skill and technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIigV7-kJk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztWqdEeyZQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINSQNo8-18 and last one is a documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibZudrZUto Now how could anything like this be explained logically? For all we know, this guy is the most talented pianist on earth, and that's no exageration. He can play any song, in any key, in any style he chooses. in fact he can play them chromatically. check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqvmPCDli0 he can compose songs on the spot, however he cannot count to 10. explain this. It's sorta hard not to compare pianists to this guy now. lol - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Oh, don't get me started. I hate the so called blind privileged experience argument. That's a load of crap circulated by people who have never been sighted, who think their experience is superior to everyone else, and argue essentially from ignorance. Especially, when the subject at hand such as music has nothing to do with being blind or sighted in the first place. For example, a few years ago there was a blind Canadian jazz and blues-rock musician named Jeff Healey. He was an exceptionally good guitar player, and loved to show off his talent by playing the guitar flat on his lap. I can't argue with his skill as a guitarist, since I do admire his skills myself, but many people jumped to that stereotypical conclusion that because he was blind that made him somehow superior to sighted musicians. Of course, the fact he was blind had absolutely nothing to do with it. It all came down to a lot of time and practice to pull off feats like that. There have been a number of extremely talented sighted guitar players that are as good as if not better than Jeff Healey. People like Eddy Van Halen, Jimmi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Richard Van Zant from Linard Skinard, to name just a few have made a name for themselves as world renown guitarists. The point here is that being a very exceptional guitar player doesn't have anything to do with being blind. It all comes down to skill and talent. Anyway, getting back on topic here you are right. There are a number of experiences where blindness doesn't effect it one way or another. Sometimes a blind person has to do things differently, but can essentially have the same experience as his/her sighted friends and family. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a blind experience of the world whicch nobody else can understand or participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which blindness doesn't affect. perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, would probably be different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dakotah and all, Yes, virtual reality gaming would be extremely addictive. There have been a number of science fiction books, movies, and television shows that speculate how addictive it could be. One of the more interesting examples is the Sliders episode where they end up on an alternative planet earth where everyone is cyborg implanted into a world wide virtual reality game. While the show was a bit extreme I do think if the technology is ever invented it could have mass addiction from people who simply don't know how to do things in moderation. As you pointed out there have been some extreme cases where people have been catheterized whatever just so they could continue gaming. There is a well known story where a guy died of a heart attack after playing a popular roll playing game for fifty-some hours straight. Such is insanity from my point of view, but there are obsessive-compulsives out there who just can't quit for some reason. They go on and on until it kills them. True VR gaming would only be that much more compelling. That said, that sort of thing tends to be the exception and not the rule. A person who is well balanced, mentally stable, with a decent life won't indulge in extreme VR gaming. They have no need to. The people who make headline news for dying after playing games for several hours straight generally have absolutely screwed up lives to begin with. They often play games to escape reality, close themselves off from the real world, and use it as a substitute for real life. Those people are a danger to themselves and need mental help. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases it is because sight allows for obtainment of visual data and that the brain is more properly equipped to make decisions based on visual data. I'm not spouting nonsense. I'm putting forth fact. But my basic point remains the same throughout. SOme people can do some things better. Others do other things better. Hence diversity, hence an interesting world. Signed: Dakotah Rickard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Well-said Thomas! I heard a funny quote once which said basically, 'Go outside, the graphics are amazing!' lol! So I personally think we need to enjoy life. Enjoy the one we have before we try to make another one. :) This one is a huge gift so get up, get outside get with each other and have some big fun! :) Moving through this life can be as much fun, and much much cooler than any game. -Know what I mean? It's all in how you make it. :) Anyway, blah blah blah -just my two cents. Have an awesome day and hope I didn't take this one too far OT. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dakotah and all, Yes, virtual reality gaming would be extremely addictive. There have been a number of science fiction books, movies, and television shows that speculate how addictive it could be. One of the more interesting examples is the Sliders episode where they end up on an alternative planet earth where everyone is cyborg implanted into a world wide virtual reality game. While the show was a bit extreme I do think if the technology is ever invented it could have mass addiction from people who simply don't know how to do things in moderation. As you pointed out there have been some extreme cases where people have been catheterized whatever just so they could continue gaming. There is a well known story where a guy died of a heart attack after playing a popular roll playing game for fifty-some hours straight. Such is insanity from my point of view, but there are obsessive-compulsives out there who just can't quit for some reason. They go on and on until it kills them. True VR gaming would only be that much more compelling. That said, that sort of thing tends to be the exception and not the rule. A person who is well balanced, mentally stable, with a decent life won't indulge in extreme VR gaming. They have no need to. The people who make headline news for dying after playing games for several hours straight generally have absolutely screwed up lives to begin with. They often play games to escape reality, close themselves off from the real world, and use it as a substitute for real life. Those people are a danger to themselves and need mental help. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases it is because sight allows for obtainment of visual data and that the
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Al, I think the answer lies in the person's mental stability. As I mentioned in my prior post a well balanced, well adjusted, person wouldn't get hooked on virtual reality gaming machines. Some people who were born blind, for example, are probably very comfortable being blind and a game that simulates sight might be interesting to them but might not be a spectacular experience. Part of the reason is that there are a lot of visual concepts like colors, depth perception, etc that might be mental overload for them at first. They'd have to ease into the entire concept of sight. Then again, if there was a way for a virtual reality game to transfer images etc directly into the human brain why couldn't that same technology be used to transfer images from the real world into the human brain. In such a case I for one would say to heck with the game and pick the technology that simulates sight. Anything that would help me walk around, watch TV, read printed materials, etc would be far more addictive and useful to me than a V.R. game. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: Hi Dakotah, I couldn't agree with you more. Very well said indeed. My only comment when it comes to Matrix style brain gaming is that I think safety measures would be put in that would prevent most of the problems that might arise with normal person usage. For the disabled however, I can see it becoming very addictive and popular, if ever it happened. I mean, a paralyzed person would feel whole again, a blind person could see, deaf could hear, etc and so forth. Why would anyone disabled leave such an environment for reality? I guess I am talking beyond games to interconnectivity of brain with a computer simulation or even with others linked in. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Cara, Exactly my point. People seriously need to try enjoy the life they have, deal with their problems in a mature and meaningful manner, and not try and use games as a substitute for life. Games, although fun and entertaining, are only a temporary pass time and nothing more. No matter how addictive virtual reality gaming may be it is no more and no less than a temporary pass time and often a poor substitute for reality. For example, in theory someone could fill a giant pool or tub full of water, warm it to 75 degrees, put on a pair of V.R. goggles, and jump in. The V.R. goggles might give him/her the simulation of swimming in the ocean while the tub of water gives him/her the physical sensation of being underwater. However, realistic it might seem it still would be a fake. It would be far more rewarding in the long run to travel to the beach, rent a wetsuit and tanks, and go swimming in the ocean. The experience of seeing it firsthand really and truly blows away any virtual reality experience man could ever create. Like I said earlier the people who spend almost all their time playing games have no lives. They don't know how to enjoy the life they have. There are many things more satisfying such as hiking, swimming, playing a musical instrument, whatever that are more satisfying if you just do them rather than pretending to do them in a game world. I'm sure some virtual reality experiences have their place. A person might get on a treadmill and put on a V.R. helmet to simulate walking through the woods, mountains, etc while they walk the treadmill. Its alright, might help a person pass the time, but I'd prefer going to the location and walking it in reality than via some V.R. helmet. To me V.R. still would only be a cheap substitute for the real thing. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Well-said Thomas! I heard a funny quote once which said basically, 'Go outside, the graphics are amazing!' lol! So I personally think we need to enjoy life. Enjoy the one we have before we try to make another one. :) This one is a huge gift so get up, get outside get with each other and have some big fun! :) Moving through this life can be as much fun, and much much cooler than any game. -Know what I mean? It's all in how you make it. :) Anyway, blah blah blah -just my two cents. Have an awesome day and hope I didn't take this one too far OT. Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
With inflation, its now 5 cents. At 03:15 PM 7/26/2012, you wrote: Well-said Thomas! I heard a funny quote once which said basically, 'Go outside, the graphics are amazing!' lol! So I personally think we need to enjoy life. Enjoy the one we have before we try to make another one. :) This one is a huge gift so get up, get outside get with each other and have some big fun! :) Moving through this life can be as much fun, and much much cooler than any game. -Know what I mean? It's all in how you make it. :) Anyway, blah blah blah -just my two cents. Have an awesome day and hope I didn't take this one too far OT. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 26, 2012, at 12:02 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Dakotah and all, Yes, virtual reality gaming would be extremely addictive. There have been a number of science fiction books, movies, and television shows that speculate how addictive it could be. One of the more interesting examples is the Sliders episode where they end up on an alternative planet earth where everyone is cyborg implanted into a world wide virtual reality game. While the show was a bit extreme I do think if the technology is ever invented it could have mass addiction from people who simply don't know how to do things in moderation. As you pointed out there have been some extreme cases where people have been catheterized whatever just so they could continue gaming. There is a well known story where a guy died of a heart attack after playing a popular roll playing game for fifty-some hours straight. Such is insanity from my point of view, but there are obsessive-compulsives out there who just can't quit for some reason. They go on and on until it kills them. True VR gaming would only be that much more compelling. That said, that sort of thing tends to be the exception and not the rule. A person who is well balanced, mentally stable, with a decent life won't indulge in extreme VR gaming. They have no need to. The people who make headline news for dying after playing games for several hours straight generally have absolutely screwed up lives to begin with. They often play games to escape reality, close themselves off from the real world, and use it as a substitute for real life. Those people are a danger to themselves and need mental help. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
The trouble, and this is way philosophical, has been touched on more times than a ... well, let's just keep going... the real trouble is when it's not virtual reality but different reality. Virtual reality means a reality that is distinctly different from the, and here I quote, Real world. The thing about a direct neural stimulation is that it's pretty much gonna be impossible to tell it apart from reality, if that's what the person making the thing wants and if tht's whaat the market demands. I ask you, and yes this is related, what's the point of rendering graphically every single blade of gras in a field. What is the point in making blood splatters so realistic that they look identical to real life? I don't know, but that's what the graphics enthusiasts want. Environments that are entirely manipulatable, entirely destructive, and entirely too real. I'm not just talking about the nutballs who are unbalanced. I'm talking about pretty much anyone who calls themself a gamer. There's no going back to the old days of crap graphics. Eventually, our own high performance technology will be old news, and the graphics might just look real enough that they jump out and get you, but it's still just a picture on a screen, but what happens when the graphics are generated by the world's most advanced, most complicated, and most versitile computer, the human brain itself. I'm not talking about something we have now, but isn't it possible that the reality device we eventually construct can find the neurons which contain the smell for, say, apple pie, and they trigger those neurons. You don't think you smell apple pie or want to smell apple pie, you actually smell it. At that point, if the person generates their own reality, then that is their reality. This is hugely philosophical and wildly off topic, especially considering that the device that these university reserchers have made is essentially a glorified body motion tracker, but it is worth considering. We all assume that the person will be able to tell the difference between reality and the game world, but when that difference is more conceptual than psychological, who will want to leave a world in which they and their friends are popular, important, heroic, handsome, wealthy, powerful, and so forth. It's not a question of being balanced or unbalanced. People respond to positive stimuli by doing whatever it is that stimulates them more. Drugs, sex, rock and roll, running, eating chocolate, what ever you want to point to, it's all reinforced by reactions in the mind and in the brain, and the impressive array of awesomeness which is a main character in a game is, beyond question, a strong positive reinforcement. That's why games are addictive. Sure, they're an escape, but they're only an escape because they're so addictive. That's why more people ply games than enter sensory deprivation tanks. I hope you guys enjoyed this rambling wayword post. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/26/12, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cara, Exactly my point. People seriously need to try enjoy the life they have, deal with their problems in a mature and meaningful manner, and not try and use games as a substitute for life. Games, although fun and entertaining, are only a temporary pass time and nothing more. No matter how addictive virtual reality gaming may be it is no more and no less than a temporary pass time and often a poor substitute for reality. For example, in theory someone could fill a giant pool or tub full of water, warm it to 75 degrees, put on a pair of V.R. goggles, and jump in. The V.R. goggles might give him/her the simulation of swimming in the ocean while the tub of water gives him/her the physical sensation of being underwater. However, realistic it might seem it still would be a fake. It would be far more rewarding in the long run to travel to the beach, rent a wetsuit and tanks, and go swimming in the ocean. The experience of seeing it firsthand really and truly blows away any virtual reality experience man could ever create. Like I said earlier the people who spend almost all their time playing games have no lives. They don't know how to enjoy the life they have. There are many things more satisfying such as hiking, swimming, playing a musical instrument, whatever that are more satisfying if you just do them rather than pretending to do them in a game world. I'm sure some virtual reality experiences have their place. A person might get on a treadmill and put on a V.R. helmet to simulate walking through the woods, mountains, etc while they walk the treadmill. Its alright, might help a person pass the time, but I'd prefer going to the location and walking it in reality than via some V.R. helmet. To me V.R. still would only be a cheap substitute for the real thing. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Well-said Thomas! I heard a funny quote once which said basically, 'Go outside, the
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
You make some good points, and I never said this could be done without practice. IN fact, the documentary mentioned that when he first started, he'd play using karate chops, with his nose etc. however, the fact that he has perfect pitch, and can distinguish any number of notes played simultaneous is a great mystery. if I play 10 random notes on a piano, can you play all of them back perfectly? They even did orchestra tests to try and find out how much he could play at once, and since he obviously couldn't play everything he heard using block cords, he'd arpeggiate to try and play the piece. Derek can also play any song he hears almost instantly. in fact, it was mentioned on one of the videos I've watched that he's memorized over 1 songs. You request it, Derek will play it. Simple as that. If you guys haven't watched the documentary, I strongly suggest you do so. Fascinating stuff. it's obviously not all about being blind or sighted, and I doubt it's as simple as just practice. there have to be other factors involved. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Derek's level of ability becomes a lot more explicable though if you consider that the chap has spent more time each day of his life since a very young age at a piano than anywhere else, discounting sleep. It hasn't been just mindless plonking either, there have always been people around him who understand enough music theory to coach and encourage, those being there in addition to some of the finest tuition available. I guess it's fascinating to some how the raw talent was there in the first place, but talent plus insane amounts of practice usually equals virtuoso, Derek isn't an exception. He's an amazing musician for sure, but it's worth remembering how his days have been spent. All too often I see people asuming he just woke up one day as the player he is now. If only it were that easy! On 7/26/12, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: There are some true inexplicable mysteries out there though. This is a bit off topic, but since music came up I'd like to mention Derek Paravicini, the blind and severely autistic pianist. It would take a while to explain why this guy is so amazing, so I'll link you guys to a few videos. it'll give you an idea of what this guy's all about and his incredible improv skill and technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIigV7-kJk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztWqdEeyZQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINSQNo8-18 and last one is a documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibZudrZUto Now how could anything like this be explained logically? For all we know, this guy is the most talented pianist on earth, and that's no exageration. He can play any song, in any key, in any style he chooses. in fact he can play them chromatically. check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqvmPCDli0 he can compose songs on the spot, however he cannot count to 10. explain this. It's sorta hard not to compare pianists to this guy now. lol - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Oh, don't get me started. I hate the so called blind privileged experience argument. That's a load of crap circulated by people who have never been sighted, who think their experience is superior to everyone else, and argue essentially from ignorance. Especially, when the subject at hand such as music has nothing to do with being blind or sighted in the first place. For example, a few years ago there was a blind Canadian jazz and blues-rock musician named Jeff Healey. He was an exceptionally good guitar player, and loved to show off his talent by playing the guitar flat on his lap. I can't argue with his skill as a guitarist, since I do admire his skills myself, but many people jumped to that stereotypical conclusion that because he was blind that made him somehow superior to sighted musicians. Of course, the fact he was blind had absolutely nothing to do with it. It all came down to a lot of time and practice to pull off feats like that. There have been a number of extremely talented sighted guitar players that are as good as if not better than Jeff Healey. People like Eddy Van Halen, Jimmi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Richard Van Zant from Linard Skinard, to name just a few have made a name for themselves as world renown guitarists. The point here is that being a very exceptional guitar player doesn't have anything to do with being blind. It all comes down to skill and talent. Anyway, getting back on topic here you are right. There are a number of experiences where blindness doesn't effect it one way or another. Sometimes a blind person has to do things differently, but can essentially
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
let's assume VR turns out to be indistinguishable from the real thing? then what? all your senses are 100% realistically depicted in your mind. at that point, why would anyone care about the real thing? In fact, why should the real thing even exist if there's absolutely no difference between it and the simulation? Imagine playing Mortal Kombat and someone does a fatality on you? hahahahaha! - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 3:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Cara, Exactly my point. People seriously need to try enjoy the life they have, deal with their problems in a mature and meaningful manner, and not try and use games as a substitute for life. Games, although fun and entertaining, are only a temporary pass time and nothing more. No matter how addictive virtual reality gaming may be it is no more and no less than a temporary pass time and often a poor substitute for reality. For example, in theory someone could fill a giant pool or tub full of water, warm it to 75 degrees, put on a pair of V.R. goggles, and jump in. The V.R. goggles might give him/her the simulation of swimming in the ocean while the tub of water gives him/her the physical sensation of being underwater. However, realistic it might seem it still would be a fake. It would be far more rewarding in the long run to travel to the beach, rent a wetsuit and tanks, and go swimming in the ocean. The experience of seeing it firsthand really and truly blows away any virtual reality experience man could ever create. Like I said earlier the people who spend almost all their time playing games have no lives. They don't know how to enjoy the life they have. There are many things more satisfying such as hiking, swimming, playing a musical instrument, whatever that are more satisfying if you just do them rather than pretending to do them in a game world. I'm sure some virtual reality experiences have their place. A person might get on a treadmill and put on a V.R. helmet to simulate walking through the woods, mountains, etc while they walk the treadmill. Its alright, might help a person pass the time, but I'd prefer going to the location and walking it in reality than via some V.R. helmet. To me V.R. still would only be a cheap substitute for the real thing. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Cara Quinn caraqu...@caraquinn.com wrote: Well-said Thomas! I heard a funny quote once which said basically, 'Go outside, the graphics are amazing!' lol! So I personally think we need to enjoy life. Enjoy the one we have before we try to make another one. :) This one is a huge gift so get up, get outside get with each other and have some big fun! :) Moving through this life can be as much fun, and much much cooler than any game. -Know what I mean? It's all in how you make it. :) Anyway, blah blah blah -just my two cents. Have an awesome day and hope I didn't take this one too far OT. Smiles, Cara :) --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Nicely put! That's what I was actually getting at. if this alternate reality is indistinguishable from actual reality, then what's your argument? - Original Message - From: Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 4:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game The trouble, and this is way philosophical, has been touched on more times than a ... well, let's just keep going... the real trouble is when it's not virtual reality but different reality. Virtual reality means a reality that is distinctly different from the, and here I quote, Real world. The thing about a direct neural stimulation is that it's pretty much gonna be impossible to tell it apart from reality, if that's what the person making the thing wants and if tht's whaat the market demands. I ask you, and yes this is related, what's the point of rendering graphically every single blade of gras in a field. What is the point in making blood splatters so realistic that they look identical to real life? I don't know, but that's what the graphics enthusiasts want. Environments that are entirely manipulatable, entirely destructive, and entirely too real. I'm not just talking about the nutballs who are unbalanced. I'm talking about pretty much anyone who calls themself a gamer. There's no going back to the old days of crap graphics. Eventually, our own high performance technology will be old news, and the graphics might just look real enough that they jump out and get you, but it's still just a picture on a screen, but what happens when the graphics are generated by the world's most advanced, most complicated, and most versitile computer, the human brain itself. I'm not talking about something we have now, but isn't it possible that the reality device we eventually construct can find the neurons which contain the smell for, say, apple pie, and they trigger those neurons. You don't think you smell apple pie or want to smell apple pie, you actually smell it. At that point, if the person generates their own reality, then that is their reality. This is hugely philosophical and wildly off topic, especially considering that the device that these university reserchers have made is essentially a glorified body motion tracker, but it is worth considering. We all assume that the person will be able to tell the difference between reality and the game world, but when that difference is more conceptual than psychological, who will want to leave a world in which they and their friends are popular, important, heroic, handsome, wealthy, powerful, and so forth. It's not a question of being balanced or unbalanced. People respond to positive stimuli by doing whatever it is that stimulates them more. Drugs, sex, rock and roll, running, eating chocolate, what ever you want to point to, it's all reinforced by reactions in the mind and in the brain, and the impressive array of awesomeness which is a main character in a game is, beyond question, a strong positive reinforcement. That's why games are addictive. Sure, they're an escape, but they're only an escape because they're so addictive. That's why more people ply games than enter sensory deprivation tanks. I hope you guys enjoyed this rambling wayword post. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/26/12, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Cara, Exactly my point. People seriously need to try enjoy the life they have, deal with their problems in a mature and meaningful manner, and not try and use games as a substitute for life. Games, although fun and entertaining, are only a temporary pass time and nothing more. No matter how addictive virtual reality gaming may be it is no more and no less than a temporary pass time and often a poor substitute for reality. For example, in theory someone could fill a giant pool or tub full of water, warm it to 75 degrees, put on a pair of V.R. goggles, and jump in. The V.R. goggles might give him/her the simulation of swimming in the ocean while the tub of water gives him/her the physical sensation of being underwater. However, realistic it might seem it still would be a fake. It would be far more rewarding in the long run to travel to the beach, rent a wetsuit and tanks, and go swimming in the ocean. The experience of seeing it firsthand really and truly blows away any virtual reality experience man could ever create. Like I said earlier the people who spend almost all their time playing games have no lives. They don't know how to enjoy the life they have. There are many things more satisfying such as hiking, swimming, playing a musical instrument, whatever that are more satisfying if you just do them rather than pretending to do them in a game world. I'm sure some virtual reality experiences have their place. A person might get on a treadmill and put on a V.R. helmet to simulate walking through the woods, mountains, etc while they walk the treadmill. Its alright, might help
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] ... I doubt it's as simple as just practice. there have to be other factors involved. I'm on the other side of that opinion, Yohandy. I'm convinced its just as simple as practice, and that there's not really any other factors involved. I too know a huge number of songs and can play in the dark, even with my minimal training. Being blind isn't really much of a factor, as part of any good musician's training should be to play in pitch black so that there's no need to look at the instrument. Piano is one of the easier instruments for this, because the layout of the keys guides your fingers. I've had a lot more trouble playing guitar and bass blind than piano. I have little doubt that most people could do everything he does, if they dedicated their lives to it. (Rare cases like my mother, where there is an actual biological problem, are of course the exception. She is completely, utterly tone deaf, and actually cannot tell the difference between notes played up to two octaves apart. The entire remainder of my family, even my extended family, is fine.) Never underestimate the power of hard work and practice. I don't do what he does because I don't care that much; I like programming more. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Well one thing that comes to mind is the red dwarf book entitled better than life. I can get adicted to standard gaming, wearing my phones and forgetting the world around me. If I forgot the world totally that would be a problem. And as movies like the matrix and others shows that we need to be carefull on what we wish for and what if we get it would we take for granted. We are one step from ai but if we get that self aware thing and flumix it as it were there is a possibility that we may just do ourselves in perminantly with ourselves as our own weapons targets and enemies. We are not far from it either, we have the siri system and thats scary enough. We seem to be making devices easier to handle already. It stands to reason that vr games will come. At 03:02 p.m. 26/07/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Dakotah and all, Yes, virtual reality gaming would be extremely addictive. There have been a number of science fiction books, movies, and television shows that speculate how addictive it could be. One of the more interesting examples is the Sliders episode where they end up on an alternative planet earth where everyone is cyborg implanted into a world wide virtual reality game. While the show was a bit extreme I do think if the technology is ever invented it could have mass addiction from people who simply don't know how to do things in moderation. As you pointed out there have been some extreme cases where people have been catheterized whatever just so they could continue gaming. There is a well known story where a guy died of a heart attack after playing a popular roll playing game for fifty-some hours straight. Such is insanity from my point of view, but there are obsessive-compulsives out there who just can't quit for some reason. They go on and on until it kills them. True VR gaming would only be that much more compelling. That said, that sort of thing tends to be the exception and not the rule. A person who is well balanced, mentally stable, with a decent life won't indulge in extreme VR gaming. They have no need to. The people who make headline news for dying after playing games for several hours straight generally have absolutely screwed up lives to begin with. They often play games to escape reality, close themselves off from the real world, and use it as a substitute for real life. Those people are a danger to themselves and need mental help. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This suggests differences in the psychological makeup of the person, let alone possible physical brain differences. There are also activities which the sighted person will find easier to do or conceptualize than will blind individuals. In some cases, this is because sighted persons make the majority of the products and services in the world. In some other cases it is because
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Perhaps Siri gives out those I'm really sorry, but I can't take any requests right now messages when she's tied up with the more delicate stages of planning to anialate mankind as we know it. Based on how often she says that to me lately, I'm not making too many plans LOL. On 7/26/12, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Well one thing that comes to mind is the red dwarf book entitled better than life. I can get adicted to standard gaming, wearing my phones and forgetting the world around me. If I forgot the world totally that would be a problem. And as movies like the matrix and others shows that we need to be carefull on what we wish for and what if we get it would we take for granted. We are one step from ai but if we get that self aware thing and flumix it as it were there is a possibility that we may just do ourselves in perminantly with ourselves as our own weapons targets and enemies. We are not far from it either, we have the siri system and thats scary enough. We seem to be making devices easier to handle already. It stands to reason that vr games will come. At 03:02 p.m. 26/07/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Dakotah and all, Yes, virtual reality gaming would be extremely addictive. There have been a number of science fiction books, movies, and television shows that speculate how addictive it could be. One of the more interesting examples is the Sliders episode where they end up on an alternative planet earth where everyone is cyborg implanted into a world wide virtual reality game. While the show was a bit extreme I do think if the technology is ever invented it could have mass addiction from people who simply don't know how to do things in moderation. As you pointed out there have been some extreme cases where people have been catheterized whatever just so they could continue gaming. There is a well known story where a guy died of a heart attack after playing a popular roll playing game for fifty-some hours straight. Such is insanity from my point of view, but there are obsessive-compulsives out there who just can't quit for some reason. They go on and on until it kills them. True VR gaming would only be that much more compelling. That said, that sort of thing tends to be the exception and not the rule. A person who is well balanced, mentally stable, with a decent life won't indulge in extreme VR gaming. They have no need to. The people who make headline news for dying after playing games for several hours straight generally have absolutely screwed up lives to begin with. They often play games to escape reality, close themselves off from the real world, and use it as a substitute for real life. Those people are a danger to themselves and need mental help. Cheers! On 7/26/12, Dakotah Rickard dakotah.rick...@gmail.com wrote: Responding directly to the trans-cranial attachments, it would be tremendously addictive. There's been more than a little speculative fiction about virtual reality and its effect on human psychology. I personally hope it doesn't come about for a long time, if ever, that virtual gaming is that compelling. I've already heard of some cases where people have been catheterized so that they can continue gaming uninterrupted. Imagine, then, the disorders and disfunctions caused by a perfect virtual simulation constructed and played out in your own mind. Returning slightly to a topic I touched on, I do think that there are levels and levels of perspective, as I spoke about in my previous post. It would be foolish to assume everyone's perspective is the same. There is an argument that those who have been blind for the duration of their lives have a different perspective on blindness than do those who have gotten used to being blind. This is not to say that either perspective is superior, just that they both exist, and it is not an exclusively singular perspective we're dealing with. A person who was taught to hate blindness and being blind will respond poorly to it as compared with a person who was taught that blindness is like godhood. I give ludicrous examples to make a point. The plain facts are that our perspectives determine our reality. If that perspective was molded through adolescence to be that of a sighted individual, and if most sighted people feel that losing their sight would be worse than losing any other sense, which tends to be the case, then a sighted person going blind in later adolescence or beyond would feel differently about the loss of their sight than a person would if they lost it earlier in life. There are many activities, whether they be games, fencing, building a house, or cooking a meal, which consistently require the same effort and the same modifications dependent on skill, ability, and perception, and there are activities which require more effort for those who lose their sight later on and activities which require more effort when sight is lost early. This
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
and of course, people keep missing the point. Dude, I'm blind as well. it's the reason I'm on this list. and I play piano. been playing for years. so I'm aware that blind people can play piano. Sheesh we aren't ignorant on here. I'm not referring to the playing itself as I've explained several times, I'm referring to the rest of the things that make him unique. - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] ... I doubt it's as simple as just practice. there have to be other factors involved. I'm on the other side of that opinion, Yohandy. I'm convinced its just as simple as practice, and that there's not really any other factors involved. I too know a huge number of songs and can play in the dark, even with my minimal training. Being blind isn't really much of a factor, as part of any good musician's training should be to play in pitch black so that there's no need to look at the instrument. Piano is one of the easier instruments for this, because the layout of the keys guides your fingers. I've had a lot more trouble playing guitar and bass blind than piano. I have little doubt that most people could do everything he does, if they dedicated their lives to it. (Rare cases like my mother, where there is an actual biological problem, are of course the exception. She is completely, utterly tone deaf, and actually cannot tell the difference between notes played up to two octaves apart. The entire remainder of my family, even my extended family, is fine.) Never underestimate the power of hard work and practice. I don't do what he does because I don't care that much; I like programming more. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
I have come to an important conclusion. I am not a moderator, not at all, but I strongly suggest we stop this topic here. There's nothing more to say than we've already said. There really isn't much more to say on holodecks, virtual reality, blindness and its perspectives, savantism, or music. I hope that everyone will raise their glass to a good, well-rounded, huge topic that's about as off- as one can get. Here's to a good discussion left to end gracefully. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/26/12, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: and of course, people keep missing the point. Dude, I'm blind as well. it's the reason I'm on this list. and I play piano. been playing for years. so I'm aware that blind people can play piano. Sheesh we aren't ignorant on here. I'm not referring to the playing itself as I've explained several times, I'm referring to the rest of the things that make him unique. - Original Message - From: Dennis Towne s...@xirr.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 5:45 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 4:40 PM, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: [snip] ... I doubt it's as simple as just practice. there have to be other factors involved. I'm on the other side of that opinion, Yohandy. I'm convinced its just as simple as practice, and that there's not really any other factors involved. I too know a huge number of songs and can play in the dark, even with my minimal training. Being blind isn't really much of a factor, as part of any good musician's training should be to play in pitch black so that there's no need to look at the instrument. Piano is one of the easier instruments for this, because the layout of the keys guides your fingers. I've had a lot more trouble playing guitar and bass blind than piano. I have little doubt that most people could do everything he does, if they dedicated their lives to it. (Rare cases like my mother, where there is an actual biological problem, are of course the exception. She is completely, utterly tone deaf, and actually cannot tell the difference between notes played up to two octaves apart. The entire remainder of my family, even my extended family, is fine.) Never underestimate the power of hard work and practice. I don't do what he does because I don't care that much; I like programming more. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
But why is it that we, in the u.k, don't get anything like this? Its not fair! -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Allan Thompson Sent: 25 July 2012 01:01 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game This sounds really fascinating! I only wish there really was a star trek holodeck! al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:18 PM Subject: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5152 - Release Date: 07/24/12 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Also on that point tom holodecks just came into being, how do we know they didn't start like this. At 08:33 p.m. 24/07/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Phil, This sounds awesome! However, it still comes as a bit of a disappointment, because it requires a lot of balky equipment. What I'd really love to see is a true holodeck like the one on the Enterprise that allows for the freedom of movement, sounds, smells, and so on. Ah, well, I guess we will get there eventually. :D On 7/24/12, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
i remember back in the 90s there were a few vertual world games, indeed patrick walker used to host a program think it was game master or something, but vr has been around for a while in the uk. On 25/07/2012, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: Also on that point tom holodecks just came into being, how do we know they didn't start like this. At 08:33 p.m. 24/07/2012 -0400, you wrote: Hi Phil, This sounds awesome! However, it still comes as a bit of a disappointment, because it requires a lot of balky equipment. What I'd really love to see is a true holodeck like the one on the Enterprise that allows for the freedom of movement, sounds, smells, and so on. Ah, well, I guess we will get there eventually. :D On 7/24/12, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hmmm Simon. Do you mean games master? that was awesome, and involved Patric more the physicist along with Dominick diamond. Though Patric as the games master himself was presented virtually, or at least on a big screen rather than being physically present, it wasn't actually a program about virtual reality, but was the first, and arguably the best, show about computer games on British Tv, with reviews of upcomming games and articals on game related subjects, challenges where people played a game against each other, and a lot of humour. There were also some very regular appearences but a lot of people in the know from the industry such as Dave perry. A fantastic series that I believe I saw every episode of, and which was my main source of game information while I was growing up. Just a shame it ended along with most of my own mainstream game playing round about the mid 1990's. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
thats the one, i remember me and my misses at the time we had just gotten a sega mega drive and of course we were hooked on that show, i meant patrick moore lol. happy days they were. On 25/07/2012, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hmmm Simon. Do you mean games master? that was awesome, and involved Patric more the physicist along with Dominick diamond. Though Patric as the games master himself was presented virtually, or at least on a big screen rather than being physically present, it wasn't actually a program about virtual reality, but was the first, and arguably the best, show about computer games on British Tv, with reviews of upcomming games and articals on game related subjects, challenges where people played a game against each other, and a lot of humour. There were also some very regular appearences but a lot of people in the know from the industry such as Dave perry. A fantastic series that I believe I saw every episode of, and which was my main source of game information while I was growing up. Just a shame it ended along with most of my own mainstream game playing round about the mid 1990's. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dark, I suppose, but from my point of view everything in life happens to be that way. No matter weather I'm listening to television, playing baseball with my son, reading from a menu in a diner, it requires more effort on my part because I'm blind and everyone else isn't. Its a clear case of, you take the good; you take the bad; you take them both; and there you have the facts of life. Of course, the other issue here is that although you and I both have visual accessibility issues in ways they are separate disabilities. What I mean by that is older games such as those for the Atari or NES are almost impossible for me to play because there I can't see the graphics at all and the sounds are funky bleep, bleep, bleeps, and boop, boop, boops which mean absolutely nothing to me. You might be able to deal with the primitive graphics but I don't have that advantage, and the primitive sounds don't help me at all. Take a more modern game I can usually hold my own as long as the sounds are good and I don't have to see the 3d graphics to play them. The 3d graphics put you at a disadvantage and I am not sure how good you are at playing modern mainstream games by sound alone. So its interesting that while we have visual disabilities the end result from a gaming user interface is radically different for us. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. The problem I see it is that where as in a game with pure sound or with less realistic graphics there is no access issue, the closer things get to reality, the more the access is needed. to take the fensing example. yes, you can use light sabers that make noises and practice, but the effort will always be more than for a sighted person when attaining the same level of skill, and when the point of a game is to test your skill your on to a none starter really when the effort for access is so radically different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Ben, Simple answer. Your universities aren't into that kind of research. There are universities that focus on medical research, others do technical research, others that are into advanced physics, etc. It is rather obvious that the leaders in those specific fields would invent or discover something before others around the world would simply because of who works for them and where there line of research lies. Cheers! On 7/25/12, Ben gamehead...@aol.co.uk wrote: But why is it that we, in the u.k, don't get anything like this? Its not fair! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Ben, We here in the U.S. don't get anything like this either. This is a research project, which means some college students and a professor or two built it in a laboratory on campus. Nobody can buy one, but you could hire people to build a custom one for you if you wanted. It would just cost you a lot of money. Dennis Towne Alter Aeon MUD http://www.alteraeon.com On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Ben gamehead...@aol.co.uk wrote: But why is it that we, in the u.k, don't get anything like this? Its not fair! --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Tom. I'm afraid I utterly disagree that everything! takes more effort for a visually impared person. Even if we restrict ourselves to just games, something like boppit, a mainstream audio game, or indeed any audio game is by it's very nature equal. Also, though some brouser games and games that rely on apprehending a complex layout of information might be said to require somewhat more effort, the case seems less so for somethin that is purely text based and completely accessible, ie the screen reader can access the text instantly with one key press. thus a lot of interactive fiction, games like Eamon, gamebooks with good layouts and buttons such as lone wolf, choiceof games or the ff project wouldn't seem to be this way. though it is true that audio games are often developed and played by visually impared people, there is nothing to stop sighted people from playing them either, as proved by the few sighted people who do! play and develope audio games such as Richard and Sander from audiogames.net, , which is exactly why they are accessible, and also why I'd strongly encourage audio games to be considdered as simply a genre of games with merit on their own groundds, rather than just! an accessible alternative for the poor segrigated blind people to play in their little getto. As to sound in 3D games, the issue certainly isn't that I can't! it's simply that the amount of effort involved as compared to playing a graphical game, even with my extremely limited vision makes the games not only not worth playing, but also frankly frustrating as hell due to low information. if I play a game, i don't want to have to use guess work about what is happening, or keep hitting directions at random to work out where I should go, then use massive memorization for game objects, such a thing goes beyond the point of fun for me. Yes, i might have to play more slowly, and occasionally I'll get hit or otherwise run into something and think what the hell was that and need to take time learning how to avoid it, but I generally want the possibility to sit down to a game and actually perceive most of it's objects and atmosphere, rather than always be at the level of guess work. This is why I'd much rather play something like original Mega man, than a 3D brawler, sinse in Mega man, most of the objects in the game will be instantly visible and I can work out my own stratogies and ways of dealing with them. This isn't a cryticism of anyone's playing method, just an explanation. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dark, Sure. However, my basic point is that you have some vision therefore simple 2d graphics vs 3d graphics makes a huge difference in how you play said games. I have absolutely no site so the graphical representation on the screen makes absolutely no difference to me. I have to put the same effort into playing no matter what kind of graphics are used because all I have is the audio output. If the audio output is terrible I have no access at all and if the audio output is great then there is a higher degree of access. I do agree in some cases some things are equally accessible between sighted and blind consumers, but I still maintain most things do require more effort as a rule of thumb. If we use your example of text games with NVDA I have to route the review cursor to the bottom of the screen, arrow up to where the text begins, and begin reading it line by line. This doesn't make text games unaccessible to play, but is a lot more inconvenient than reading it with your eyes. Therefore with some screen readers, the way the text is presented, may require a bit more effort to get access to than your average sighted user. Then, of course, we are over looking the big issue itself. Playing text games, gamebooks, whatever requires a screen reader. Up until very recently when screen readers like NVDA were developed a person would have to shell out a lot of cash for Window-Eyes, Jaws, Supernova, etc which would be considerably more cost to the enduser. While we can't measure that as extra effort per say it is a factor in determining accessibility. The price or cost of access is as bad as extra effort in my book. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I'm afraid I utterly disagree that everything! takes more effort for a visually impared person. Even if we restrict ourselves to just games, something like boppit, a mainstream audio game, or indeed any audio game is by it's very nature equal. Also, though some brouser games and games that rely on apprehending a complex layout of information might be said to require somewhat more effort, the case seems less so for somethin that is purely text based and completely accessible, ie the screen reader can access the text instantly with one key press. thus a lot of interactive fiction, games like Eamon, gamebooks with good layouts and buttons such as lone wolf, choiceof games or the ff project wouldn't seem to be this way. though it is true that audio games are often developed and played by visually impared people, there is nothing to stop sighted people from playing them either, as proved by the few sighted people who do! play and develope audio games such as Richard and Sander from audiogames.net, , which is exactly why they are accessible, and also why I'd strongly encourage audio games to be considdered as simply a genre of games with merit on their own groundds, rather than just! an accessible alternative for the poor segrigated blind people to play in their little getto. As to sound in 3D games, the issue certainly isn't that I can't! it's simply that the amount of effort involved as compared to playing a graphical game, even with my extremely limited vision makes the games not only not worth playing, but also frankly frustrating as hell due to low information. if I play a game, i don't want to have to use guess work about what is happening, or keep hitting directions at random to work out where I should go, then use massive memorization for game objects, such a thing goes beyond the point of fun for me. Yes, i might have to play more slowly, and occasionally I'll get hit or otherwise run into something and think what the hell was that and need to take time learning how to avoid it, but I generally want the possibility to sit down to a game and actually perceive most of it's objects and atmosphere, rather than always be at the level of guess work. This is why I'd much rather play something like original Mega man, than a 3D brawler, sinse in Mega man, most of the objects in the game will be instantly visible and I can work out my own stratogies and ways of dealing with them. This isn't a cryticism of anyone's playing method, just an explanation. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Tom. both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a blind experience of the world whicch nobody else can understand or participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which blindness doesn't affect. perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, would probably be different. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:01 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Sure. However, my basic point is that you have some vision therefore simple 2d graphics vs 3d graphics makes a huge difference in how you play said games. I have absolutely no site so the graphical representation on the screen makes absolutely no difference to me. I have to put the same effort into playing no matter what kind of graphics are used because all I have is the audio output. If the audio output is terrible I have no access at all and if the audio output is great then there is a higher degree of access. I do agree in some cases some things are equally accessible between sighted and blind consumers, but I still maintain most things do require more effort as a rule of thumb. If we use your example of text games with NVDA I have to route the review cursor to the bottom of the screen, arrow up to where the text begins, and begin reading it line by line. This doesn't make text games unaccessible to play, but is a lot more inconvenient than reading it with your eyes. Therefore with some screen readers, the way the text is presented, may require a bit more effort to get access to than your average sighted user. Then, of course, we are over looking the big issue itself. Playing text games, gamebooks, whatever requires a screen reader. Up until very recently when screen readers like NVDA were developed a person would have to shell out a lot of cash for Window-Eyes, Jaws, Supernova, etc which would be considerably more cost to the enduser. While we can't measure that as extra effort per say it is a factor in determining accessibility. The price or cost of access is as bad as extra effort in my book. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. I'm afraid I utterly disagree that everything! takes more effort for a visually impared person. Even if we restrict ourselves to just games, something like boppit, a mainstream audio game, or indeed any audio game is by it's very nature equal. Also, though some brouser games and games that rely on apprehending a complex layout of information might be said to require somewhat more effort, the case seems less so for somethin that is purely text based and completely accessible, ie the screen reader can access the text instantly with one key press. thus a lot of interactive fiction, games like Eamon, gamebooks with good layouts and buttons such as lone wolf, choiceof games or the ff project wouldn't seem to be this way. though it is true that audio games are often developed and played by visually impared people, there is nothing to stop sighted people from playing them either, as proved by the few sighted people who do! play and develope audio games such as Richard and Sander from audiogames.net, , which is exactly why they are accessible, and also why I'd strongly encourage audio games to be considdered as simply a genre of games with merit on their own groundds, rather than just! an accessible alternative for the poor segrigated blind people to play in their little getto. As to sound in 3D games, the issue certainly isn't that I can't! it's simply that the amount of effort involved as compared to playing a graphical game, even with my extremely limited vision makes the games not only not worth playing, but also frankly frustrating as hell due to low information. if I play a game, i don't want to have to use guess work about what is happening, or keep hitting directions at random to work out where I should go, then use massive memorization for game objects, such a thing goes beyond the point of fun for me. Yes, i might have to play more slowly, and occasionally I'll get hit or otherwise run into something and think what the hell was that and need to take time learning how to avoid it, but I generally want the possibility to sit down to a game
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dark, Oh, don't get me started. I hate the so called blind privileged experience argument. That's a load of crap circulated by people who have never been sighted, who think their experience is superior to everyone else, and argue essentially from ignorance. Especially, when the subject at hand such as music has nothing to do with being blind or sighted in the first place. For example, a few years ago there was a blind Canadian jazz and blues-rock musician named Jeff Healey. He was an exceptionally good guitar player, and loved to show off his talent by playing the guitar flat on his lap. I can't argue with his skill as a guitarist, since I do admire his skills myself, but many people jumped to that stereotypical conclusion that because he was blind that made him somehow superior to sighted musicians. Of course, the fact he was blind had absolutely nothing to do with it. It all came down to a lot of time and practice to pull off feats like that. There have been a number of extremely talented sighted guitar players that are as good as if not better than Jeff Healey. People like Eddy Van Halen, Jimmi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Richard Van Zant from Linard Skinard, to name just a few have made a name for themselves as world renown guitarists. The point here is that being a very exceptional guitar player doesn't have anything to do with being blind. It all comes down to skill and talent. Anyway, getting back on topic here you are right. There are a number of experiences where blindness doesn't effect it one way or another. Sometimes a blind person has to do things differently, but can essentially have the same experience as his/her sighted friends and family. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a blind experience of the world whicch nobody else can understand or participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which blindness doesn't affect. perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, would probably be different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
There are some true inexplicable mysteries out there though. This is a bit off topic, but since music came up I'd like to mention Derek Paravicini, the blind and severely autistic pianist. It would take a while to explain why this guy is so amazing, so I'll link you guys to a few videos. it'll give you an idea of what this guy's all about and his incredible improv skill and technique. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpIigV7-kJk http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XztWqdEeyZQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BINSQNo8-18 and last one is a documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fibZudrZUto Now how could anything like this be explained logically? For all we know, this guy is the most talented pianist on earth, and that's no exageration. He can play any song, in any key, in any style he chooses. in fact he can play them chromatically. check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnqvmPCDli0 he can compose songs on the spot, however he cannot count to 10. explain this. It's sorta hard not to compare pianists to this guy now. lol - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Oh, don't get me started. I hate the so called blind privileged experience argument. That's a load of crap circulated by people who have never been sighted, who think their experience is superior to everyone else, and argue essentially from ignorance. Especially, when the subject at hand such as music has nothing to do with being blind or sighted in the first place. For example, a few years ago there was a blind Canadian jazz and blues-rock musician named Jeff Healey. He was an exceptionally good guitar player, and loved to show off his talent by playing the guitar flat on his lap. I can't argue with his skill as a guitarist, since I do admire his skills myself, but many people jumped to that stereotypical conclusion that because he was blind that made him somehow superior to sighted musicians. Of course, the fact he was blind had absolutely nothing to do with it. It all came down to a lot of time and practice to pull off feats like that. There have been a number of extremely talented sighted guitar players that are as good as if not better than Jeff Healey. People like Eddy Van Halen, Jimmi Hendrix, Eric Clapton, Richard Van Zant from Linard Skinard, to name just a few have made a name for themselves as world renown guitarists. The point here is that being a very exceptional guitar player doesn't have anything to do with being blind. It all comes down to skill and talent. Anyway, getting back on topic here you are right. There are a number of experiences where blindness doesn't effect it one way or another. Sometimes a blind person has to do things differently, but can essentially have the same experience as his/her sighted friends and family. Cheers! On 7/25/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Tom. both true, however one thing I want to avoid n any discussion with disability and effort is the idea of privelidged experience, that there is a blind experience of the world whicch nobody else can understand or participate in, even when that experience has nothing to do with blindness. i have for instance read papers by peoplke who claime that blind people, (and by their implication All! blind people), have an understanding and experience of music beyond everyone else. To me, this is exclusivist rubbish, sinse I've met some pretty tone deaf blind people and some amazing sighted musicians,, and just as we must acknolidge that sighted people can! play audio games, it is equally true that there are experiences which blindness doesn't affect. perhaps the example of text games was a bad one because of cost, but music, playing audio games, communicating in an auditory way, learning massage, would probably be different. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Actually fencing is very doable for a VI person. I know because I do it. :) Not only have I fenced other VI people but sighted fencers as well, and I mean this in a competitive sense. Once you get acquainted with the common moves and combinations you can quite easily tell what's happening and be able to answer, elaborate or furthermore, direct the bout in the way you'd like it to go. It's a language like a dance or moving chess game. In a virtual situation, I'd think there would need to be some audio queues or some such thing to help a VI person tell where the opponent's blade is, so I can see how this might be more of an issue in a case like the one being discussed here as there is no physical feedback to help reveal what is happening. In real-life, once you connect with the opponent's blade and get that physical / visceral contact, access just isn't an issue. So if that can be duplicated in a virtual reality scenario or substituted for, then I think the access issue can be minimized. Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 24, 2012, at 7:48 PM, dark wrote: One interesting thing though, is that the closer to real life it is, probably the less accessible it would be. For instance, it mentions that students are developing a game with real time combat where you swing swords and shoot guns, well sinse in real life fencing is pretty difficult for a vi person, that's accessibility gone straight off. I remember a virtual reality 3d plane sim my brother played in an arcade in the 90's, and being extremely disappointed that it was utterly unplayable for me, sinse I could only see what I'd see in a real cockpit, which was not much. indeed I've noticed myself that low vision access has decreased as games have become more graphically real. So, while I think it's an intereting bit of technology, unless we're all going to get vizers like Jordi laforge, I don't think it's one that will be really a good thing for vi gamers. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dark, Respectfully, the idea that the effort of a visually impaired person will *always* be more to achieve the same level of expertise in a situation isn't necessarily true in all cases. While I agree with you for the most part, in the case of fencing, as you become more fluent in the movements themselves, they sublimate and become second nature. So at that point, rather than contributing to cognitive load, they actually free you from it. Furthermore, the action can get so fast that even sighted fencers rely on this same mechanism, rather than looking for the moving blade and then thinking about what to do next. It just doesn't happen that way. So the point is that there gets to be an even ground at some level so to speak. As I said earlier though, I do understand where you're coming from on the gaming front. However, I think this just might be a matter of fledgling technologies. Virtual reality, as good as it is, is only in its infancy. We have so far to go with this and this leaves room for amazing and innovative ways we can find of adaptation of the presented materials to facilitate inclusiveness. Yes? Smiles, Cara :) --- View my Online Portfolio at: http://www.onemodelplace.com/CaraQuinn Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/ModelCara On Jul 24, 2012, at 10:12 PM, dark wrote: Hi Tom. The problem I see it is that where as in a game with pure sound or with less realistic graphics there is no access issue, the closer things get to reality, the more the access is needed. to take the fensing example. yes, you can use light sabers that make noises and practice, but the effort will always be more than for a sighted person when attaining the same level of skill, and when the point of a game is to test your skill your on to a none starter really when the effort for access is so radically different. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Using real fencing swords is difficult for someone who can't see, but there are ways to do it and make it accessible. I'll use myself as an example here. My son and I have a couple of battery operated light sabers we got at Wal-Mart. They vibrate, hum, and light up like the real thing but the blades are nothing more than a long plastic tube. To make a long story short I've gotten good at blocking his attacks and finding openings simply by listening to the hum and voom, voom, voom of the light sabers. Point being if the enemy sword has some sound source a blind person can fence well enough, and therefore the game could be made accessible. However, you are right adding accessibility to any vr gaming is the last thing the developers will think of in the initial stages. Most of it will be highly graphical and audio will be there as special effects rather than as an accessibility aid. Sadly we are always the last to be included in any kind of new development like this. Cheers! On 7/24/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: One interesting thing though, is that the closer to real life it is, probably the less accessible it would be. For instance, it mentions that students are developing a game with real time combat where you swing swords and shoot guns, well sinse in real life fencing is pretty difficult for a vi person, that's accessibility gone straight off. I remember a virtual reality 3d plane sim my brother played in an arcade in the 90's, and being extremely disappointed that it was utterly unplayable for me, sinse I could only see what I'd see in a real cockpit, which was not much. indeed I've noticed myself that low vision access has decreased as games have become more graphically real. So, while I think it's an intereting bit of technology, unless we're all going to get vizers like Jordi laforge, I don't think it's one that will be really a good thing for vi gamers. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
This sounds really fascinating! I only wish there really was a star trek holodeck! al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:18 PM Subject: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
You and me both, and one that didn't require such probably bulky equipment. I pay good money to play around in that for a while. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 24, 2012, at 5:01 PM, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: This sounds really fascinating! I only wish there really was a star trek holodeck! al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message - From: Phil Vlasak To: Gamers Discussion list Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2012 7:18 PM Subject: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Phil, This sounds awesome! However, it still comes as a bit of a disappointment, because it requires a lot of balky equipment. What I'd really love to see is a true holodeck like the one on the Enterprise that allows for the freedom of movement, sounds, smells, and so on. Ah, well, I guess we will get there eventually. :D On 7/24/12, Phil Vlasak p...@pcsgames.net wrote: USC Students building a working Holodeck Project Holodeck makes use of Oculus Rift, PlayStation Move, and Razer Hydra to create virtual-reality gaming. by Eric Mack July 24, 2012 Welcome to Project Holodeck, would you like to make my day? Infiltrating the Borg or having dinner with Deanna Troi are just a few of things that could soon become a (virtual) reality with some help from a team based at the University of Southern California. Project Holodeck is exactly what it sounds like -- a very serious effort to make the iconic virtual-reality room from Star Trek an actual reality. Unlike on the U.S.S. Enterprise, where Lt. Cmdr. Data might just stroll into a wild west casino in his regular uniform with no extra equipment, Project Holodeck relies on an Oculus Rift headset for visuals, PlayStation Move for head tracking, and the Razer Hydra to monitor body movements. The current holodeck room is at least a little bit interactive, as well, with fans who are jacked into the system to simulate wind. The team is also developing a game to show off the setup called Wild Skies, which will require players to fly an airship and also engage in a little combat using swords and guns. They plan to go on the road with their Holodeck system, hitting venues like Maker Faire in the near future. Until then, you can see the system in action in the video below -- this early demo features footage from the Sega Dreamcast game Skies of Arcadia, which Wild Skies seems to be roughly modeled on. Sadly, Cmdr. Troi is nowhere to be seen in this one. http://www.projectholodeck.com/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
What?! I thought USA Games was already building a holodeck prototype! grin. I just love the idea of something like that. It wouldn't be for just games though. It could help in some situations dealing with mental stress like PTSD. I watched a show a while back that immersed soldiers suffering from this in a holodeck like simulation of combat. Apparently, being put into that situation again, and letting the soldiers respond in that simulation allowed them to get past the stress and anxiety, effectively curing them. So a holodeck like in Star trek could do wonders for people beyond games...although I would just love it for the games lol. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
The equipment isn't really that bulky. There's a little headset thing, a head tracker, and a little body monitor. It reminds me of the project game Demor on Audiogames.net. I wish I could have played that one. Music's good though. I use it in my own roleplay projects from time to time. Signed: Dakotah Rickard On 7/24/12, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: What?! I thought USA Games was already building a holodeck prototype! grin. I just love the idea of something like that. It wouldn't be for just games though. It could help in some situations dealing with mental stress like PTSD. I watched a show a while back that immersed soldiers suffering from this in a holodeck like simulation of combat. Apparently, being put into that situation again, and letting the soldiers respond in that simulation allowed them to get past the stress and anxiety, effectively curing them. So a holodeck like in Star trek could do wonders for people beyond games...although I would just love it for the games lol. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. - Original Message --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
One interesting thing though, is that the closer to real life it is, probably the less accessible it would be. For instance, it mentions that students are developing a game with real time combat where you swing swords and shoot guns, well sinse in real life fencing is pretty difficult for a vi person, that's accessibility gone straight off. I remember a virtual reality 3d plane sim my brother played in an arcade in the 90's, and being extremely disappointed that it was utterly unplayable for me, sinse I could only see what I'd see in a real cockpit, which was not much. indeed I've noticed myself that low vision access has decreased as games have become more graphically real. So, while I think it's an intereting bit of technology, unless we're all going to get vizers like Jordi laforge, I don't think it's one that will be really a good thing for vi gamers. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Al, Lol! Oh, yes, USA Games has built the worlds first holodeck prototype. Like Barkly I can act out all my fantasies with Deanna Troi. :D Seriously though I think the concept of a holodeck could and would have enormous medical benefits to people beyond just games. For one thing it would provide people with a great way to exorcize. For example, in Nora Robberts' In Death series it is set in the late 2050's and early 2060's. Like Star Trek mankind has invented a holodeck where people can relax, play games, and do other things. In one of the books Eve Dallas, the main character in the series, decides to go for a run. She walks into the holodeck, activates a beach program, and goes running on the beach. Something like that would make it possible for a person to run any program they wanted in order to exorcize on a regular basis. Plus as you pointed out people with psychological disorders like PTSD, fobias, etc can go back and experience that situation and face it in a safe environment.It might help people deal with stress and other issues as well. Then, the gaming possibilities would be fantastic. Imagine creating a fantasy world, something like Dungeons and Dragons, where you roam around the world fighting monsters, enemy warriors, and act out your game in real time. That would be so cool there aren't words to describe it. :D Cheers! On 7/24/12, Allan Thompson allan1.thomp...@cox.net wrote: What?! I thought USA Games was already building a holodeck prototype! grin. I just love the idea of something like that. It wouldn't be for just games though. It could help in some situations dealing with mental stress like PTSD. I watched a show a while back that immersed soldiers suffering from this in a holodeck like simulation of combat. Apparently, being put into that situation again, and letting the soldiers respond in that simulation allowed them to get past the stress and anxiety, effectively curing them. So a holodeck like in Star trek could do wonders for people beyond games...although I would just love it for the games lol. al The truth will set you free Jesus Christ of Nazareth 33A.D. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Using real fencing swords is difficult for someone who can't see, but there are ways to do it and make it accessible. I'll use myself as an example here. My son and I have a couple of battery operated light sabers we got at Wal-Mart. They vibrate, hum, and light up like the real thing but the blades are nothing more than a long plastic tube. To make a long story short I've gotten good at blocking his attacks and finding openings simply by listening to the hum and voom, voom, voom of the light sabers. Point being if the enemy sword has some sound source a blind person can fence well enough, and therefore the game could be made accessible. However, you are right adding accessibility to any vr gaming is the last thing the developers will think of in the initial stages. Most of it will be highly graphical and audio will be there as special effects rather than as an accessibility aid. Sadly we are always the last to be included in any kind of new development like this. Cheers! On 7/24/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: One interesting thing though, is that the closer to real life it is, probably the less accessible it would be. For instance, it mentions that students are developing a game with real time combat where you swing swords and shoot guns, well sinse in real life fencing is pretty difficult for a vi person, that's accessibility gone straight off. I remember a virtual reality 3d plane sim my brother played in an arcade in the 90's, and being extremely disappointed that it was utterly unplayable for me, sinse I could only see what I'd see in a real cockpit, which was not much. indeed I've noticed myself that low vision access has decreased as games have become more graphically real. So, while I think it's an intereting bit of technology, unless we're all going to get vizers like Jordi laforge, I don't think it's one that will be really a good thing for vi gamers. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game
Hi Tom. The problem I see it is that where as in a game with pure sound or with less realistic graphics there is no access issue, the closer things get to reality, the more the access is needed. to take the fensing example. yes, you can use light sabers that make noises and practice, but the effort will always be more than for a sighted person when attaining the same level of skill, and when the point of a game is to test your skill your on to a none starter really when the effort for access is so radically different. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2012 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] working Holodeck game Hi Dark, Well, yes and no. Using real fencing swords is difficult for someone who can't see, but there are ways to do it and make it accessible. I'll use myself as an example here. My son and I have a couple of battery operated light sabers we got at Wal-Mart. They vibrate, hum, and light up like the real thing but the blades are nothing more than a long plastic tube. To make a long story short I've gotten good at blocking his attacks and finding openings simply by listening to the hum and voom, voom, voom of the light sabers. Point being if the enemy sword has some sound source a blind person can fence well enough, and therefore the game could be made accessible. However, you are right adding accessibility to any vr gaming is the last thing the developers will think of in the initial stages. Most of it will be highly graphical and audio will be there as special effects rather than as an accessibility aid. Sadly we are always the last to be included in any kind of new development like this. Cheers! On 7/24/12, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: One interesting thing though, is that the closer to real life it is, probably the less accessible it would be. For instance, it mentions that students are developing a game with real time combat where you swing swords and shoot guns, well sinse in real life fencing is pretty difficult for a vi person, that's accessibility gone straight off. I remember a virtual reality 3d plane sim my brother played in an arcade in the 90's, and being extremely disappointed that it was utterly unplayable for me, sinse I could only see what I'd see in a real cockpit, which was not much. indeed I've noticed myself that low vision access has decreased as games have become more graphically real. So, while I think it's an intereting bit of technology, unless we're all going to get vizers like Jordi laforge, I don't think it's one that will be really a good thing for vi gamers. Beware the greu! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://mail.audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] working
Hello, If anyone has the time to play me this evening, please email me and I'll give you my IP Adress. Though I must also give some commentary. In the beginning, I thought, heck, this is easy. But I must say, by the time I played on rising rage I found I could not play it without my headphones. Excellent work, Phillip, definitely worthy of what being in the ranks of Kringle Crash and Q9. Now we just have to wait and see what you have in store for jungle jolt, and anything else in the meantime (is it possible to wait? Grin). Best Regards, Hayden -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of william lomas Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2010 10:15 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] working hi I got palice punchup working now with regards the manual --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
