Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On 14 March 2011 01:30, Frank Lanitz wrote: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:43:48 +1100 > Lex Trotman wrote: > >> Of course leaving all the content in >> makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. >> To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, >> and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. > > I disagree. > > E.g. there is no reason to keep a footer inside quoted mail as this is > also not solved by a folding mail client. Yes it is. > > Also folding of messages is introducing a lot of complexity into mail > client on the one hand as well as having a look onto stile of quoted > text -- there is a lot of quoted text on one level which makes the > folding feature nearly useless in many cases. Complexity in the mail client isn't my problem, I'm not writing it :-) > > For me its just a matter of good behavior just to quote things you are > really relaying on. For the rest there is a thread, mailing list > archive or whatever. See my replies to Thomas. It seems some people don't read them before commenting. Cheers Lex > > Cheers, Frank > -- > http://frank.uvena.de/en/ > > ___ > Geany-devel mailing list > Geany-devel@uvena.de > http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel > > ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On 14 March 2011 01:24, Randy Kramer wrote: > On Saturday 12 March 2011 09:43:48 pm Lex Trotman wrote: >> This howto is very worthwhile, but one of the problems with this, and >> many other lists, is that many people don't read the whole thread, so >> if you cut all the old content out you are forcing them to reply >> without all the background. Of course leaving all the content in >> makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. >> To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, >> and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. > > Can you give me the names of some email clients that have this feature? > On a quick google search, all I could find reference to was the Google > web-based email client. (BTW, I use Linux and kmail 3.5.10.) Hi Randy, To be honest I havn't looked at stand alone mailers for a long time, I now use gmail so I can read it at home, at work and while commuting (which is when I have most time to comment). I can't actually remember what I used last but it also folded quoted text (provided people marked it in accordance with the guidelines). Cheers Lex > > Randy Kramer > ___ > Geany-devel mailing list > Geany-devel@uvena.de > http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel > ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On 13 March 2011 23:36, Thomas Martitz wrote: > I agree with Frank, I hate unecessary full quotes. > > > On 13.03.2011 03:43, Lex Trotman wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I'd like to add a couple of points to Franks excellent comments >> >> On 13 March 2011 05:18, Frank Lanitz wrote: >>> >>> Hi guys, >>> >>> Please give me the chance to point to the world famous usenet quoting >>> howto at http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html >>> We are here at an mailing list, but most of the rules apply here also. >> >> This howto is very worthwhile, but one of the problems with this, and >> many other lists, is that many people don't read the whole thread, so >> if you cut all the old content out you are forcing them to reply >> without all the background. Of course leaving all the content in >> makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. >> To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, >> and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. > > That assumes that I read all through the full quotes. That's of course not > the case because I would be reading the same stuff a dozen times. I try to > ignore them (reading only the actual bits that people are replying to), but > that means I painfully need to search for new content. So you are one of the good guys who reads the whole thread before he comments, but there are lots of comments (including from some of the main contributors) that "I havn't read the whole thread but...". Its probably due to lack of time I understand that, but I find this particularly rude & feel like saying to them, "well I'll read your comment after you go back and read the thread then comment again", but that is rude too, so partly in self defence I admit I tend to leave more context on this list. > > IMO it's up to the reader to make sure he's got all background. I agree totally, but it isn't happening. > > Your mails are particularly hard to read, sorry Lex. No, I apologise for having to make your life harder, but I don't know how to handle it other than that there is probably some intermediate ground. Remember this is a mailing list not an IRC, there are delays and (in my case +11 hours) time zone differences so correcting comments from people who comment only based on last post or not having read the half dozen intermediate one paragraph posts slows the discussion a lot. And after all we are here to try to work on software, sometimes the discussion will have large contents. When there are four or five comments, and each only has one paragraph you have to either reply to each, and serial posting should also be frowned on, it inflates the list and again not all the posts will be read or replies are made before reading following comments. Trying to copy several people's replies into one mail seems to rarely work nice. For example as I write this there are three more posts after yours on this thread each saying different things with only the paragraph they are interested in (yes I read them before replying to you), so there will be serial replies effectively breaking the thread into several subthreads. That makes it very hard to keep track of whats going on. The only other option is to use something other than a mailing list, where all comments are visible on a web page. See for example http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/4221#comment-64884 But that sort of thing needs a host. Cheers Lex > > Best regards. > > > ___ > Geany-devel mailing list > Geany-devel@uvena.de > http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel > ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On Sunday 13 March 2011 10:30:08 am Frank Lanitz wrote: > On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:43:48 +1100 > > Lex Trotman wrote: > > Of course leaving all the content in > > makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new > > content. To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text > > hiding features, and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that > > does. > > I disagree. > > E.g. there is no reason to keep a footer inside quoted mail as this > is also not solved by a folding mail client. > > Also folding of messages is introducing a lot of complexity into mail > client on the one hand as well as having a look onto stile of quoted > text -- there is a lot of quoted text on one level which makes the > folding feature nearly useless in many cases. > > For me its just a matter of good behavior just to quote things you > are really relaying on. For the rest there is a thread, mailing list > archive or whatever. +1 Randy Kramer ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On Sun, 13 Mar 2011 13:43:48 +1100 Lex Trotman wrote: > Of course leaving all the content in > makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. > To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, > and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. I disagree. E.g. there is no reason to keep a footer inside quoted mail as this is also not solved by a folding mail client. Also folding of messages is introducing a lot of complexity into mail client on the one hand as well as having a look onto stile of quoted text -- there is a lot of quoted text on one level which makes the folding feature nearly useless in many cases. For me its just a matter of good behavior just to quote things you are really relaying on. For the rest there is a thread, mailing list archive or whatever. Cheers, Frank -- http://frank.uvena.de/en/ pgpoEXCtef2T3.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
On Saturday 12 March 2011 09:43:48 pm Lex Trotman wrote: > This howto is very worthwhile, but one of the problems with this, and > many other lists, is that many people don't read the whole thread, so > if you cut all the old content out you are forcing them to reply > without all the background. Of course leaving all the content in > makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. > To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, > and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. Can you give me the names of some email clients that have this feature? On a quick google search, all I could find reference to was the Google web-based email client. (BTW, I use Linux and kmail 3.5.10.) Randy Kramer ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
I agree with Frank, I hate unecessary full quotes. On 13.03.2011 03:43, Lex Trotman wrote: Hi all, I'd like to add a couple of points to Franks excellent comments On 13 March 2011 05:18, Frank Lanitz wrote: Hi guys, Please give me the chance to point to the world famous usenet quoting howto at http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html We are here at an mailing list, but most of the rules apply here also. This howto is very worthwhile, but one of the problems with this, and many other lists, is that many people don't read the whole thread, so if you cut all the old content out you are forcing them to reply without all the background. Of course leaving all the content in makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. That assumes that I read all through the full quotes. That's of course not the case because I would be reading the same stuff a dozen times. I try to ignore them (reading only the actual bits that people are replying to), but that means I painfully need to search for new content. IMO it's up to the reader to make sure he's got all background. Your mails are particularly hard to read, sorry Lex. Best regards. ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
Re: [Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
Hi all, I'd like to add a couple of points to Franks excellent comments On 13 March 2011 05:18, Frank Lanitz wrote: > Hi guys, > > Please give me the chance to point to the world famous usenet quoting > howto at http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html > We are here at an mailing list, but most of the rules apply here also. This howto is very worthwhile, but one of the problems with this, and many other lists, is that many people don't read the whole thread, so if you cut all the old content out you are forcing them to reply without all the background. Of course leaving all the content in makes the mailing much larger and its harder to find the new content. To combat this learn to use your mailers quoted text hiding features, and if it doesn't have them, switch to one that does. Missing content also means that people who want to comment on several parts of a discussion have to either: 1. go back to the last full post and ignore later comments or 2. reply to lots of separate mails, effectively making several threads within the thread, which can be very hard to follow or 3. cut and paste several mails into one reply, and at this point most mailers automatic quote marking breaks down > > Reason for this is that I saw a huge number of mails during the last > days, which included full quotes, not properly formates quotes etc. Try to let your mailer do the quoting automatically, its much more precise than mere humans are (assuming its configured right) or switch to one that does. > > Also it appears a number of mailing clients do have a very special > interpretation of breaking lines after about 70-80 characters. > Mailers that break lines without preserving quoting are a real pain, if you have one of those, please think about re-configuring it or switching, there are lots of good mailers these days for all platforms. > Its not very friendly to the readers of this (and other lists) as its > complicating reading and understand the content -- in special they > already have issues on reading much text due e.g. some visual > impairment or even blindness. Just keep this in mind. > > Thanks ;) +1 Cheers Lex > > Cheers, > Frank > -- > http://frank.uvena.de/en/ > > ___ > Geany-devel mailing list > Geany-devel@uvena.de > http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel > > ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
[Geany-devel] Stil of mailing list
Hi guys, Please give me the chance to point to the world famous usenet quoting howto at http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html We are here at an mailing list, but most of the rules apply here also. Reason for this is that I saw a huge number of mails during the last days, which included full quotes, not properly formates quotes etc. Also it appears a number of mailing clients do have a very special interpretation of breaking lines after about 70-80 characters. Its not very friendly to the readers of this (and other lists) as its complicating reading and understand the content -- in special they already have issues on reading much text due e.g. some visual impairment or even blindness. Just keep this in mind. Thanks ;) Cheers, Frank -- http://frank.uvena.de/en/ pgpaJPdnOp49p.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Geany-devel mailing list Geany-devel@uvena.de http://lists.uvena.de/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/geany-devel
