[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-06 Thread Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev

On 06/07/2020 19:37, Jason Lowe-Power wrote:
On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 11:22 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev 
mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>> wrote:
Hi Bobby,

Can't we solve some of these issues by just moving the mailinglist to a better system 
with good archiving? That should solve both the spam issue and some of the usability 
issues. I have looked at bit at groups.io since it is used in 
a project I'm contributing to in my spare time and it seems like a good hybrid 
between a mailinglist and a forum. They seem to have good support for grouping by 
topic, hash tag filtering, RSS feeds, and plenty of integrations.

The maintenance requirement of gem5-us...@gem5.org 
has been extraordinary. I really don't see how we can keep using that mailing list. 
Bobby has spent 50+ hours fighting with it in the past 6 months. From what I can 
tell, the way we have many people posting to a single list that ~1000 people 
subscribe to just isn't a normal use case for email anymore. We're getting blocked by 
spam filters, having to answer lots of questions about how to subscribe, etc.


The number of subscribers shouldn't be a problem. The Zephyr mailinglists have 
close to 2000 subscribers and several other open source projects have 
mailinglists with thousands of subscribers.

I think part of the problem here is that the mail servers for gem5.org are 
misconfigured or at least lack the configuration required for modern email 
systems.  According to the SMTP headers, our email servers have flagged a 
recent email from the dev list as failing SPF checks. I suspect the domain 
lacks (correct) SPF, DKIM, and DMARC records. Missing records will cause issues 
(higher likelihood of being flagged as spam), while incorrect ones will likely 
flag emails as spam right away.


If someone else is willing to step up and take ownership of the mailing list 
that would be great. It's just not something that we currently have resources 
for right now. We thought that moving to a managed system would help, but it 
hasn't solved the main problems: mail is still getting hijacked by spam 
filters, and people are still having problems signing up.


I really can't see what a Discourse-style forum would give us that you can't 
get from an email list with a good archive. I generally find forums at least as 
annoying as email archives when going back to look for information about a 
topic. The lack of threading within topics tends to make discussion really hard 
to follow, which usually isn't an issue in a well-behaved email list.

I'm not sure I understand the difference between Discourse and 
groups.io other than the interface. Could you describe why you 
think that groups.io would be better than discourse?

Also, from my experience, we have a number of people who try to contribute that *don't* 
have a well behaved email client. We see a large number of messages that are "off 
thread" (e.g., replying to a digest, changing the subject line accidentally, or just 
replying to the wrong message).


My impression of groups.io is that it is primarily an email distribution 
service with a fancy web frontend while Discourse is primarily a web system 
with email notifications.



Is the barrier of entry that people feel like the list is to "formal" or think 
that their questions are stupid? I'm not convinced that the latter would be solved by 
switching to a forum-style system like Discourse. A less formal chat system in addition 
to the list might be a better way to lower the barrier of entry.

I disagree somewhat with this. I think that if we had a discourse section titled "any 
questions here" or "new user questions" that it *would* lower the barrier to entry 
and make people feel more comfortable.


Hmm, yes, that is a good point.


I have found the Slack (despite the poor threading) system used by Zephyr very useful 
when debugging/developing drivers. It has been a convenient low-latency channel when 
working on the same subsystem as other people in the project and a general "I have 
seen this weird issue, has anyone else seen anything like it?". It's not a complete 
substitute for email lists though.

I feel that while slack might be useful, it's fundamentally different from the 
current users list. While it's gotten much better over the past several years, 
we still frequently answer the same questions over and over again on the 
mailing list because 1) we need to improve our documentation and 2) the mailing 
list isn't easy for most people to search.

I (personally) just can't imagine answering gem5 questions on slack. There's 
too much in my life that demands immediate attention already! But maybe that's 
just me.

I see them as serving different purposes. I wouldn't expect senior community members to hangout in 
an ask me anything channel all the time, maybe during "office hours" or town hall 
meetings, but not all the time. It's more of a meet other users forum for 

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-06 Thread Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev
t's got poor threading, and I'd quite like a good
> archive of answered questions for people to search. Though I'm not opposed
> to it as it has the plus of being popular (as shallow as it may be, I find
> going with the most popular solution to a problem is often the best
> course-of-action).
>
> --
> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
> Room 2235,
> Kemper Hall, UC Davis
> Davis,
> CA, 95616
>
> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
>
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Gabe Black via gem5-dev 
> wrote:
>
>> I haven't used Slack before (yeah, I know, behind the times :-), but I
>> 100% agree with that last part. Having the perfect medium won't help if
>> there aren't enough people around to actually use it to answer questions.
>>
>> Gabe
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev <
>> gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams
>>> approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick
>>> more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very
>>> happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in
>>> my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see
>>> any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like groups.io
>>> seems to solve that).
>>>
>>> I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a
>>> different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a
>>> small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on
>>> the lists.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Andreas
>>>
>>> On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote:
>>> > I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do
>>> this
>>> > just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
>>> > particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
>>> > "upvoting" responses.
>>> >
>>> > I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum,
>>> but I
>>> > think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
>>> > notifications up.
>>> >
>>> > Cheers,
>>> >
>>> > Dan
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
>>> > gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate
>>> through
>>> >> old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
>>> >> Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon
>>> as it
>>> >> gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes;
>>> there
>>> >> is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your
>>> email or
>>> >> got some time to address your problem.
>>> >>
>>> >> I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond
>>> the
>>> >> scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement
>>> tasks
>>> >> with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or
>>> does
>>> >> anyone know how this works)
>>> >>
>>> >> Giacomo
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> -Original Message-
>>> >> From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
>>> >> Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
>>> >> To: gem5 Developer List 
>>> >> Cc: Ciro Santilli 
>>> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list
>>> with
>>> >> Discourse
>>> >>
>>> >> I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best.
>>> And
>>> >> anything is better than a mailing list :-)
>>> 
>>> >> From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
>>> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
>>> >> To: gem5 Developer List 
>>> >> Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power <
>>> >> ja...@lowepower.com>
>>> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list
>>> with
>>> >> Discourse
>>> >>
>>> >> +1 for Discourse :).
>>> >>
>>> >> Just to give a bit more c

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-06 Thread Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev
 some help as time passes; there
is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your email or
got some time to address your problem.

I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the
scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement tasks
with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
anyone know how this works)

Giacomo


-Original Message-
From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>>
Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
To: gem5 Developer List mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>>
Cc: Ciro Santilli mailto:ciro.santi...@arm.com>>
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse

I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And
anything is better than a mailing list :-) 
From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
To: gem5 Developer List mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>>
Cc: gem5 users mailing list mailto:gem5-us...@gem5.org>>; 
Jason Lowe-Power <
ja...@lowepower.com<mailto:ja...@lowepower.com>>
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse

+1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im<http://gitter.im>
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
mailto:gem5-dev@gem5.org>
wrote:


Dear all,

In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based
discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the
community and ask for feedback on the matter.

We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure
I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large
number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :)
). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when
they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the
project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very good
technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who are

running into difficulties.

Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.

Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse
appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is
(essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly
popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to
communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example:
https://llvm.discourse.group ).
All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no
immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on
the matter would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who
have used Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of
moving away from the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.

So, let me know what you think! :)

Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the
use of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the
foreseeable future.

Kind regards,
Bobby
--
Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
Room 2235,
Kemper Hall, UC Davis
Davis,
CA, 95616

web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
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[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-05 Thread Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev
I personally see the problem of people not answering questions to be a
fixed constant regardless as to what medium we choose. It's a shame, but
it's a "people problem" which I agree won't be solved by deploying new
platforms.

The reason for moving from the mailing-list is the mailing-list just
doesn't appear to be an appropriate technology for tech support. I get
emails every other week from someone who struggles to join gem5-users, and
it normally turns out their gem5-user emails are ending up in spam. It's
difficult to search through the mail archive to see if your question has
been asked previously, it's hard to format your messages correctly,
impossible to tag or categorize, and, I've already had students tell me
they feel like reaching out over the gem5-users mailing list is awkward and
embarrassing for the type of questions they want to ask. As a result, they
just avoid doing so.

My issue with slack is it's got poor threading, and I'd quite like a good
archive of answered questions for people to search. Though I'm not opposed
to it as it has the plus of being popular (as shallow as it may be, I find
going with the most popular solution to a problem is often the best
course-of-action).

--
Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
Room 2235,
Kemper Hall, UC Davis
Davis,
CA, 95616

web: https://www.bobbybruce.net


On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:45 PM Gabe Black via gem5-dev 
wrote:

> I haven't used Slack before (yeah, I know, behind the times :-), but I
> 100% agree with that last part. Having the perfect medium won't help if
> there aren't enough people around to actually use it to answer questions.
>
> Gabe
>
> On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev <
> gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
>
>> I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams
>> approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick
>> more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very
>> happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in
>> my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see
>> any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like groups.io
>> seems to solve that).
>>
>> I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a
>> different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a
>> small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on
>> the lists.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andreas
>>
>> On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote:
>> > I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do
>> this
>> > just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
>> > particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
>> > "upvoting" responses.
>> >
>> > I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum,
>> but I
>> > think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
>> > notifications up.
>> >
>> > Cheers,
>> >
>> > Dan
>> >
>> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
>> > gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate
>> through
>> >> old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
>> >> Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as
>> it
>> >> gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes;
>> there
>> >> is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your
>> email or
>> >> got some time to address your problem.
>> >>
>> >> I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond
>> the
>> >> scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement
>> tasks
>> >> with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
>> >> anyone know how this works)
>> >>
>> >> Giacomo
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> -Original Message-
>> >> From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
>> >> Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
>> >> To: gem5 Developer List 
>> >> Cc: Ciro Santilli 
>> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list
>> with
>> >> Discourse
>> >>
>> >> I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best.
>> And
>> >> anything is better than a mailing list :-)
>> 
>> >> From: Jason Lowe-

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-02 Thread Gabe Black via gem5-dev
I haven't used Slack before (yeah, I know, behind the times :-), but I 100%
agree with that last part. Having the perfect medium won't help if there
aren't enough people around to actually use it to answer questions.

Gabe

On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 9:45 AM Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev <
gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:

> I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams
> approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick
> more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very
> happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in
> my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see
> any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like groups.io
> seems to solve that).
>
> I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a
> different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a
> small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on
> the lists.
>
> Cheers,
> Andreas
>
> On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote:
> > I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do
> this
> > just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
> > particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
> > "upvoting" responses.
> >
> > I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum, but
> I
> > think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
> > notifications up.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
> > gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:
> >
> >> I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate
> through
> >> old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
> >> Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as
> it
> >> gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes;
> there
> >> is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your
> email or
> >> got some time to address your problem.
> >>
> >> I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the
> >> scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement
> tasks
> >> with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
> >> anyone know how this works)
> >>
> >> Giacomo
> >>
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
> >> Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
> >> To: gem5 Developer List 
> >> Cc: Ciro Santilli 
> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list
> with
> >> Discourse
> >>
> >> I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And
> >> anything is better than a mailing list :-)
> 
> >> From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
> >> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
> >> To: gem5 Developer List 
> >> Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power <
> >> ja...@lowepower.com>
> >> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list
> with
> >> Discourse
> >>
> >> +1 for Discourse :).
> >>
> >> Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum
> for
> >> community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
> >> would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
> >> this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5
> questions, as
> >> I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.
> >>
> >> Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared
> to
> >> Discourse:
> >> - Slack/Teams/etc.
> >> - gitter.im
> >> - stackoverflow
> >>
> >> That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
> >> welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users
> are!
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Jason
> >>
> >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev <
> gem5-dev@gem5.org
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Dear all,
> >>>
> >>> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> >>> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
> >>> with Discourse, https://www.discourse.

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-07-02 Thread Andreas Sandberg via gem5-dev

I would probably be more in favour of a split email+Slack/Teams
approach. Email works well for most discussion, but I like the quick
more informal communication in a chat system. I have generally been very
happy with the way Slack has worked when I have contributed to Zephyr in
my spare time. As long as you have a threading email client, I can't see
any benefits of a forum other than archiving (services like groups.io
seems to solve that).

I think we are fooling ourselves if we think switching from email to a
different medium is going to solve underlying problem the there is a
small number of experienced users that answer most of the questions on
the lists.

Cheers,
Andreas

On 10/06/2020 16:32, Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev wrote:

I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do this
just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
"upvoting" responses.

I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum, but I
think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
notifications up.

Cheers,

Dan

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:


I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate through
old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as it
gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes; there
is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your email or
got some time to address your problem.

I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the
scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement tasks
with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
anyone know how this works)

Giacomo


-Original Message-
From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
To: gem5 Developer List 
Cc: Ciro Santilli 
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse

I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And
anything is better than a mailing list :-) 
From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
To: gem5 Developer List 
Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power <
ja...@lowepower.com>
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
Discourse

+1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
Dear all,

In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based
discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the
community and ask for feedback on the matter.

We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure
I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large
number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :)
). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when
they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the
project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very good
technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who are

running into difficulties.

Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.

Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse
appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is
(essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly
popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to
communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example:
https://llvm.discourse.group ).
All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no
immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on
the m

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-06-10 Thread Daniel Gerzhoy via gem5-dev
I think this is a great idea! Emails threads aren't a great way to do this
just because there's no mechanism for well formatted responses to
particular points in someone's questions, posting code, or things like
"upvoting" responses.

I see Daniel's point about less engagement if we move it to a forum, but I
think that could be alleviated by encouraging people to keep email
notifications up.

Cheers,

Dan

On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 5:23 AM Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev <
gem5-dev@gem5.org> wrote:

> I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate through
> old unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
> Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as it
> gets posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes; there
> is a short window and you really have to hope someone flagged your email or
> got some time to address your problem.
>
> I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the
> scope of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement tasks
> with normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does
> anyone know how this works)
>
> Giacomo
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
> Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
> To: gem5 Developer List 
> Cc: Ciro Santilli 
> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
> Discourse
>
> I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And
> anything is better than a mailing list :-) 
> From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
> To: gem5 Developer List 
> Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power <
> ja...@lowepower.com>
> Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with
> Discourse
>
> +1 for Discourse :).
>
> Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
> community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
> would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
> this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
> I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.
>
> Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
> Discourse:
> - Slack/Teams/etc.
> - gitter.im
> - stackoverflow
>
> That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
> welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!
>
> Cheers,
> Jason
>
> On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev  >
> wrote:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> > suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
> > with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based
> > discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the
> > community and ask for feedback on the matter.
> >
> > We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
> > platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
> > experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure
> > I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large
> > number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :)
> > ). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when
> > they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the
> > project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very good
> > technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who are
> running into difficulties.
> > Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
> > mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
> >
> > Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse
> > appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is
> > (essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly
> > popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to
> > communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example:
> > https://llvm.discourse.group ).
> > All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
> > features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no
> > immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on
> > the matter would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who
> > have used Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of
> > moving away from th

[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-06-10 Thread Giacomo Travaglini via gem5-dev
I agree with Daniel and Ciro; it's difficult/annoying to navigate through old 
unanswered emails and I presume nobody does that at the moment.
Most of the time if your email doesn't get a quick response as soon as it gets 
posted, you can forget about getting some help as time passes; there is a short 
window and you really have to hope someone flagged your email or got some time 
to address your problem.

I wouldn't use JIRA to be honest for asking questions; that's beyond the scope 
of JIRA and it would be chaotic to mix Bug Reports, Improvement tasks with 
normal questions (like: I cannot build gem5 on my machine, or does anyone know 
how this works)

Giacomo


-Original Message-
From: Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev 
Sent: 10 June 2020 09:21
To: gem5 Developer List 
Cc: Ciro Santilli 
Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with 
Discourse

I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And 
anything is better than a mailing list :-) 
From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
To: gem5 Developer List 
Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power 

Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with 
Discourse

+1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for 
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I would 
like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class this summer, 
future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as I believe there 
will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most 
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it
> with Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based
> discussion platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the
> community and ask for feedback on the matter.
>
> We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
> platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
> experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure
> I'm not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large
> number of people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :)
> ). This is, of course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when
> they encounter problems using gem5, particularly those new to the
> project. I've come to believe mailing lists are simply not a very good
> technology for fostering community engagement and helping those who are 
> running into difficulties.
> Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
> mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
>
> Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse
> appears to be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is
> (essentially) a revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly
> popular platform for users and developers in open source projects to
> communicate with one another (see LLVM's discourse as an example:
> https://llvm.discourse.group ).
> All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
> features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no
> immediate downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on
> the matter would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who
> have used Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of
> moving away from the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.
>
> So, let me know what you think! :)
>
> Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the
> use of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the
> foreseeable future.
>
> Kind regards,
> Bobby
> --
> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
> Room 2235,
> Kemper Hall, UC Davis
> Davis,
> CA, 95616
>
> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
> ___
> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org To unsubscribe send an
> email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
>
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[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-06-10 Thread Ciro Santilli via gem5-dev
I would just use JIRA. But after that, Discourse is the second best. And 
anything is better than a mailing list :-)

From: Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev 
Sent: Tuesday, June 9, 2020 11:40 PM
To: gem5 Developer List 
Cc: gem5 users mailing list ; Jason Lowe-Power 

Subject: [gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with 
Discourse

+1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it with
> Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based discussion
> platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the community and ask
> for feedback on the matter.
>
> We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
> platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
> experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure I'm
> not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large number of
> people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :) ). This is, of
> course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when they encounter
> problems using gem5, particularly those new to the project. I've come to
> believe mailing lists are simply not a very good technology for fostering
> community engagement and helping those who are running into difficulties.
> Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
> mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
>
> Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse appears to
> be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is (essentially) a
> revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly popular platform for
> users and developers in open source projects to communicate with one
> another (see LLVM's discourse as an example: https://llvm.discourse.group
> ).
> All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
> features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no immediate
> downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on the matter
> would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who have used
> Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of moving away from
> the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.
>
> So, let me know what you think! :)
>
> Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the use
> of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the foreseeable
> future.
>
> Kind regards,
> Bobby
> --
> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
> Room 2235,
> Kemper Hall, UC Davis
> Davis,
> CA, 95616
>
> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
> ___
> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
>
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[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-06-10 Thread Daniel Carvalho via gem5-dev
First of all, I don't know how Discourse works, but from what I saw on the 
online demo it looked like a forum. Therefore, our main use case would be as a 
place to ask/deposit questions.
I believe that having a mailing list pushing mails down our throats compels 
people to answer: "Oh, I know the answer for that one". I don't imagine people 
going out of their ways to go to a website/forum and search for questions they 
can answer. I have been actively checking StackOverflow's gem5 questions for 
the past year or so, and I can tell you there is close to null community 
engagement - it is basically Ciro - on the answering department.
That being said, the mailing list is indeed harder to work with, and 
StackOverflow is not a forum, so we could have a try at a forum-like approach 
and see how things go.

Regards,Daniel
   Em quarta-feira, 10 de junho de 2020 00:41:20 GMT+2, Jason Lowe-Power via 
gem5-dev  escreveu:  
 
 +1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it with
> Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based discussion
> platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the community and ask
> for feedback on the matter.
>
> We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
> platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
> experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure I'm
> not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large number of
> people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :) ). This is, of
> course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when they encounter
> problems using gem5, particularly those new to the project. I've come to
> believe mailing lists are simply not a very good technology for fostering
> community engagement and helping those who are running into difficulties.
> Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
> mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
>
> Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse appears to
> be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is (essentially) a
> revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly popular platform for
> users and developers in open source projects to communicate with one
> another (see LLVM's discourse as an example: https://llvm.discourse.group
> ).
> All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
> features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no immediate
> downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on the matter
> would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who have used
> Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of moving away from
> the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.
>
> So, let me know what you think! :)
>
> Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the use
> of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the foreseeable
> future.
>
> Kind regards,
> Bobby
> --
> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
> Room 2235,
> Kemper Hall, UC Davis
> Davis,
> CA, 95616
>
> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
> ___
> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
>
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[gem5-dev] Re: [Suggestion] Replace gem5-users mailing-list with Discourse

2020-06-09 Thread Jason Lowe-Power via gem5-dev
+1 for Discourse :).

Just to give a bit more context: I'm also trying to find a good forum for
community engagement during my online Learning gem5 class this summer. I
would like to find a platform that could be used generally for my class
this summer, future iterations of the class, and general gem5 questions, as
I believe there will be significant overlap between these groups.

Other potential options that IMO have more cons than pros when compared to
Discourse:
- Slack/Teams/etc.
- gitter.im
- stackoverflow

That said, we're open to suggestions :). Our goal is to create the most
welcoming and inclusive environment possible. We'll go where our users are!

Cheers,
Jason

On Tue, Jun 9, 2020 at 2:45 PM Bobby Bruce via gem5-dev 
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> In an effort to better support the gem5 community, there has been a
> suggestion that we drop the gem5-users mailing list and replace it with
> Discourse, https://www.discourse.org/about, a web-based discussion
> platform. I'm writing this email to propose this to the community and ask
> for feedback on the matter.
>
> We have noticed that using mailing lists as our primary communication
> platform is problematic. Sending an email to a list can be daunting
> experience, requiring an etiquette many are not accustom to. I'm sure I'm
> not the only one who feels like they are unduly bothering a large number of
> people when posting to a list (like I'm doing right now :) ). This is, of
> course, an unfortunate hurdle for many to get over when they encounter
> problems using gem5, particularly those new to the project. I've come to
> believe mailing lists are simply not a very good technology for fostering
> community engagement and helping those who are running into difficulties.
> Mailing lists are also difficult to search, and lack proper formatting
> mechanisms to neatly display attributes such as code and output logs.
>
> Looking around at alternative technologies available, Discourse appears to
> be a suitable replacement. For those unaware, Discourse is (essentially) a
> revamp of messaging forums. It is an increasingly popular platform for
> users and developers in open source projects to communicate with one
> another (see LLVM's discourse as an example: https://llvm.discourse.group
> ).
> All-in-all, I think it's a well-designed product and contains all the
> features we'd expect and need to get our work done. I can see no immediate
> downsides to using it, though feedback from the community on the matter
> would be greatly appreciated, particularly from those who have used
> Discourse before. Dissenting opinions on the whole idea of moving away from
> the gem5-user's mailing list are also welcome.
>
> So, let me know what you think! :)
>
> Please note, regardless as to any decision made, we will continue the use
> of the gem5-dev mailing list for technical discussions for the foreseeable
> future.
>
> Kind regards,
> Bobby
> --
> Dr. Bobby R. Bruce
> Room 2235,
> Kemper Hall, UC Davis
> Davis,
> CA, 95616
>
> web: https://www.bobbybruce.net
> ___
> gem5-dev mailing list -- gem5-dev@gem5.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to gem5-dev-le...@gem5.org
> %(web_page_url)slistinfo%(cgiext)s/%(_internal_name)s
>
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