Sam,
- we need to appropriately name the project.
Sure, let's name it after a region in the south pacific
Truk? JAAT? [Just Another AJAX Toolkit] I don't care.
We seem to agree on the rest, but the proposal should make it clear, since
those are points that appear to concern (some)
Erik Abele wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
FWIW, I would want to see your technical concerns addressed before
graduation, but so far, we have had little if any discussion of
what those tecnical issues really are, or so it seems from the
archives.
Remember that it's about the community
For future uses, PLEASE follow RFC 2119 when writing such guidelines. If we
are going to codify, let's be precise.
Vote and comments below.
--- Noel
[-1] - Any proposal should hit [EMAIL PROTECTED] first, No PR before that.
This conflates two issues. The PR issue is addressed by the
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
[ ] - IP Clearance has to be OK'ed by Incubator PMC VOTE (before code
gets checked in to a sponsoring project's SVN)
As previously noted, I think that it has to be OK'd by *SOME* PMC's vote,
but perhaps that could be either the Incubator or the importing PMC
Doug,
I saw a number of ASF folks expressing interesting in participating. My
quick take is that:
(a) you should identify the additional ASF folks,
and get them down either as comitters and/or
Mentors. Was there a reason for excluding
them from the proposal?
(b) the
Doug Cutting wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
(a) you should identify the additional ASF folks,
and get them down either as comitters and/or
Mentors. Was there a reason for excluding
them from the proposal?
None whatsoever. If their statements of willingness to help
Niklas,
I see CLAs recorded for both you and Sergey now, so I'll get onto the
account requests and karma grants.
--- Noel
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Niklas Gustavsson wrote:
Any updates on the progress of setting up the accounts for Sergey and me?
You have your account now, we're waiting on a CLA from Sergey.
--- Noel
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I see CLAs recorded for both you and Sergey now, so I'll get onto the
account requests and karma grants.
Actually, I was wrong. We don't have Sergey's, so that's still pending.
--- Noel
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Can someone make a definitive statement on whether or not code
history is brought into our repo from elsewhere when a podling
brings code over?
It is still being debated, so no. Roy's comments about import from private
vs public repositories may be a reasonable approach. Personally, I'm a
Dan Diephouse wrote:
Martin Cooper wrote:
Personally, I would prefer that the ASF not accept _any_ AJAX
framework at this point in time. The area is relatively new
and in a great deal of flux right now, and crowning one of
them with the ASF brand will create a de facto standard instead
http://people.apache.org/~jerenkrantz/ForrestCoatSafari.jpg
I believe that this may be the known issue, but none of the menu on the left
hand side is visible. Instead, I get an error, which says:
Line 15
Char 1
Error: Object expected
Code: 0
URL:
Mads Toftum wrote:
I don't see much sophistication in the current site
Just the tabbed and menu navigation. And some other little bits that no one
probably uses.
the logo for Apachecon that finished more than two weeks ago
Fixed the next time that David regenerates the site.
Personally,
Mads Toftum wrote:
Whoa! so the workflow is tied to David watching for commits?
When someone said that at apachecon, I thought it was a joke - I'm
beginning to understand more and more of why people are annoyed.
Why? The man has been tremendous about it. He publishes daily. And if you
look
Ross Gardler wrote:
In my opinion sticking with Forrest will be damaging to both parties
unless:
- people here are willing to actually respond to Davids proposals
(not necessarily agree, but at least respond)
I agree that it isn't fair to always file feature requests in the form of
Leo Simons wrote:
I think what it comes down to is what we want here for the
incubator is a stable, or preferably mature tool, and
forrest really is currently too much of a moving target
That can be addressed, in part, by packaging Forrest in our site build
structure, so that when you
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
How would even having a local copy of the JARs prevent the problem that
Forrest won't actually generate the site?
I don't believe that to be correct, but we can clarify with David and Ross.
Don't get me wrong; having everything included in incubator/site *is* a
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
if you look at plans for site-dev, they don't involve people doing
their own builds, they involve a build server.
Anakia sites don't need a build server! I would never feel comfortable
about committing a change that I couldn't review myself
Geir,
[David] has been studly about it, but could he be studly today?
I updated the main projects page and need that to be published.
Hopefully so. IIRC, David is in Oz, and so it should be just past 5AM for
him.
--- Noel
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
I don't want a staging server at all! It's *massive* overkill and
something I don't want to have any part of.
Fine, let's take the build server out of this equation, because it addresses
somewhat different needs.
The way to solve the 'how do I build this?' for a
Niklas Gustavsson wrote:
I'm not a commiter but I do have my CLA on file
niklas is already taken for another account. What would be your prefered
alternative(s)?
--- Noel
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Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
There has been some discussion on creating a Java specs project
which would hold all the specs jars from the various JSRs as well
as other standards, e.g. CORBA. Often, there are many duplicate
copies of the source code for the same JSR floating around in
different
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
If you, as a user, are looking for a replacement of Sun's
jar files, you wouldn't look for JaxMe. But you'd
probably look for a central location of SPEC jar files.
Why would I want to replace Sun's jar files? Only because I want an
implementation, and that's
Davanum Srinivas wrote:
this is just for sources of javax.* NOT implementations. One location
for a servlet-api.jar, jaxrpc.jar, saaj.jar, xml-apis.jar.
Geir wrote:
No - the spec jars for those things. Not the implementations.
Ah. And JavaMail? There is only one functional JavaMail out
I had to download a JRE for my box.
C'mon, it's a java-based app after all.
FWIW, so is anakia, which is what we use to build the main ASF site, and
many other ASF sites. So a JRE is pretty universally required, and
available.
Same thing will happen with this new Super Simple Tool
--
What shall we do then in incubator? Any idea for a productive outcome?
Either see what improvements we can get from Forrest, or convert to anakia
and have a less sophisticated site.
Personally, I'd like to see if the Forrest folks can redeem the product's
reputation here, and make people happy
David,
Some troubles at the ASF are that:
a) We cannot run java-based applications on apache
hardware (perhaps when the zones.a.o machine is
out of testing phase).
b) There are various projects using Forrest
but no ASF-wide installation for them to use
server-side.
- zones is out of
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
In any event, there are a variety of ways forward. Alex, Ted,
Serge and others appear to like the idea of a authentication
restricted Confluence to use for generating HTML.
I think that we should have a neutral open format that our docs
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Ross Gardler wrote:
Because the ASF have to support the chosen tool and there are many
different site generation tools in use within the ASF (now the
Incubator is about to get its own).
I hope not. I hope we reuse what is simple and easy and already
working.
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
I am +1 for dumping Forrest. I never grok why something so simple as
our static website needs something so complicated to build it.
Forrest does do some things for us, such as generating what I do consider to
be a somewhat nicer looking site with collapsable menus
Mads Toftum wrote:
The one thing I never understood is why incubator insists on placing the
whole forrest burden on new projects - as if they don't have enough
other things to worry about than learning a system that they're likely
to ditch as soon as they have the chance?
Huh? Projects have
Ross Gardler wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Fair drawback, since I doubt that if one edits the HTML in SVN directly,
that Confluence would be able to pick up the changes. OTOH, isn't this
how Cocoon is doing their docs now, albeit with Daisy?
Daisy does not write to SVN so the only way
Rana,
We DID vote in two committers, Sergey and Niclas, back in October, but
that's where the process fell through. And why we need to have more than
one person acting as a Mentor for each project.
I can take care of Niclas immediately, since he's already an ASF Committer.
I just checked the
[Sorry for the delayed response ... spent a few days rebuilding my laptop.]
David tried to get people interested in the issue, constructively, back in
November.
ref:
http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-general/200511.mbox/%3c20
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Please review David's post from
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
I'm all in favor of enforcing a strict embargo until the Incubator PMC
? approves a proposal, an initial code drop lands, and the mailing lists are
created. Until those happen, any active publicity claiming it to be a
part
of the ASF is a flat-out lie. (In the
Jim Jagielski wrote:
I have never envisioned a case where the Incubator would
be at odds with the desires of the PMCs and the members.
As Geir noted, I can see the potential for the former, but of the latter,
I would hope not. The Members are the Incubator in many real ways, and the
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
If any ASF PMC believes it is in the best interest of the Foundation to
accept a podling and they are willing to dedicate resources (people) -
then anyone on the Incubator PMC has no standing to challenge that
decision. When a PMC approves a podling, the only thing
Erik Abele wrote:
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
What you do have is the right to vote against their graduation if
you so desire.
The second sentence does exactly what the first sentence forbids, no?
It tells people what they cannot do at the ASF.
It is established that the Incubator is the sole
Steven Noels wrote:
The Incubator PMC only needs to care about IP and legal blahblah,
thus the receiving PMCs are tasked with community and brand abuse
stuff.
Not true. If there is community development, the Incubator PMC had better
be involved. We're going to have to adjust things, such as
Dims,
it's been a line in the sand AFAIK, i guess it's Noel's call.
-1
Although that might be technically true, we do things collectively in the
ASF. Mind you, we've not had a process for voting on IP Clearance type
submissions, so that's been a potential loophole.
I think we should insist
Martin,
Is there a well-defined line between these two mechanisms for bringing new
code to the ASF?
No, not a well-defined one. The IP Clearance is primarily intended for use
with a relatively simple Software Grant situation into an existing project,
such as libtool, which we can contrast
Jim Jagielski wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Jim Jagielski wrote:
I think the Incubator would best serve the ASF if we/they had
the ultimate authority to vote on, even if the PMC approves a
proposed project, acceptance.
You are entitled to that view, but until the Board formally sets
James Strachan wrote:
I don't see why we need to force a major package name
change on our users.
Branding and consistency. A wrapper package can be used to deprecate the
old names.
--- Noel
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Greg Stein wrote:
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Dumb question, is it a requirement that the incubating
project move to the org.apache package?
I would say yes.
As would (and did) most others. We should add this to the Incubation
checklist. I don't want to see another mistake made as was
Jim Jagielski wrote:
The Chairman does not have ultimate authority, and their
PoV or opinion does not count more or less than others,
nor does it mean that their interpretation is the rule :)
Right, but there is clearly a difference of opinion, so which part of the
Board can clarify the
Alan D. Cabrera wrote:
Are you stating that the Incubator PMC does not currently
have the ultimate authority on who leaves the incubator
and who does not?
No, that is clearly an authority delegated by the Board exclusively to the
Incubator.
--- Noel
The merits of the particular proposal aside
We should always be judging the merits of each proposal. Failing to do so
might well be part of the problem.
I think that the incubation process is setting an incredibly
low bar for access to the Apache brand name
And we require disclaimers and
Jim Jagielski wrote:
There is one thing that I think would be useful in
helping: That the Incubator PMC take an active role
in accepting new projects. Normally, if the Sponsor
says Yes a vote isn't even taken on the Incubator
side. I think that no matter what, unless overruled
by the board,
Ted Leung wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
The merits of the particular proposal aside
We should always be judging the merits of each proposal.
Failing to do so might well be part of the problem.
How is this possible when any other PMC can vote to bring a project
in without approval
Jim Jagielski wrote:
I see the Incubator as a gatekeeper almost.
See Roy's comments for an alternative view. As I understand his view, the
gatekeeper role is limited to projects leaving the Incubator, not entering.
PMCs, in general, don't have an idea of the number of
podlings within the
Leo Simons wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Changing a mailing list is stil painful further downstream.
Eg with the MARC archive or mail-archive.com or gmane or
whatever.
We don't support any of those. We provide the raw and mod_mbox archives,
and those are what we support. As you said
Mike Milinkovich wrote:
So your assertion is that all open source code should be
done at Apache and there are no reasonable scenarios in
which another open source community can or should attempt
to co-operate with Apache?
I don't believe that Sam said anything of the sort.
Solomon has
Please vote on the following:
New mailing lists should be created under the
@incubator.apache.org domain, just as all of
the other project resources, e.g., the web
site and SVN subtree.
+1 from me.
--- Noel
-Original Message-
From: Noel J. Bergman [mailto:[EMAIL
Jean Anderson and Eddie O'Neil have volunteered to help redact our collected
wisdom into a coherent guide. Cliff Schmidt will contribute on the legal/IP
side. Henri Yandell has volunteered to review as a guinea pig.
Anyone who wishes to volunteer is welcomed. We'll want to get input from
those
There has been some discussion and confusion over where to put mailing lists
for projects that are in the Incubator. As the person who argued for the
current approach, which had to do with infrastructure issues, I'm also going
to suggest that it change. We are finding that it is more and more
Bruce Snyder wrote:
The WADI developers would like to have these lists changed to
@geronimo.apache.org instead of @incubator.apache.org.
See my e-mail regarding mailing list domains.
--- Noel
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Dain Sundstrom wrote:
My personal preference is to have incubated sub-projects use mailing
lists and websites within the TLP containing a notice header that the
project is under incubation
The inclusion of a footer, perhaps an abbreviated form of the disclaimer
with a URL to the full one,
Jeremy,
How does this proposal fit with other ESB/SOA projects currently underway at
the ASF? At first glance, there appears to be overlap, so I am wondering if
there a plan / opportunity to merge them.
--- Noel
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Is the project going to be a JBI (JSR 208) implementation?
Oddly, IBM is conspicuous by its surprising absence from that JSR's expert
group.
--- Noel
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David Crossley wrote:
Ah sorry, i missed the Harmony ones, did only Geronimo.
So did I, when I looked at the directory after you. :-)
--- Noel
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what is needed so that George can get Lucene.NET back on track?
Are the resource requests in JIRA?
--- Noel
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Jason,
We have been directed that anytime an external codebase is imported into the
ASF, that we must document it. Hence:
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/public/trunk/site-author/proje
cts/incubation-status-template.html?view=markup
So, yes, the PMC should file a copy of that for
David Crossley wrote:
So, yes, the PMC should file a copy of that for each external codebase
imported into ASF source control.
Is that meant to be the IP Clearance Template instead:
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/public/trunk/site-author/project
The clearance template is what I documented in my other email.
How does this need to be officially recorded?
Check in copies into SVN. You'll find several examples already.
--- Noel
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Actually, we'd like to have them all in one place, I believe. So a
directory under or a peer of the projects directory, perhaps.
--- Noel
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Guys,
Please move FTPSERVER discussions to its own lists. :-)
--- Noel
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Rana Bhattacharyya wrote:
I guess the status file would be
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/public/trunk/site-author/project
s/ftpserver.cwiki.
Correct.
As the whole Incubator is going through a major
restructuring process, I have not changed the link.
The reorganization was
I noticed that the FTP server project has been removed
from your website.
Not at all. The site is at http://incubator.apache.org/ftpserver
Can you please let me know if it is no longer being supported by Apache?
Quite to the contrary. The project was quiet for a very long time, but has
And you probably want to subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
They still need to update their website to reflect recent resources
established for that project.
--- Noel
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For
Status report for the Apache Incubator Project
The Incubator continues to see good progress in a number of projects and
their communities.
This quarter saw continued development of our communities. A major and
happy surprise was the resurrection
Rana Bhattacharyya wrote:
So the bottom-line is projects in Incubation cannot
release without permission from PMC. In case of a
release, the filename should contain incubating
word.
And have the disclaimer in the directory and in each release package.
Correct.
Please note that the
Folks,
Your report is well overdue, and were it not for the fact that the Board
pushed back their meeting by a week this month, the Incubator report would
have already been submitted, noting that yours had not been submitted.
Please get your report posted IMMEDIATELY.
The report is being
The project is obliged to make sure that its STATUS page is up to date when
leaving the Incubator. Pubscribe, aka Hermes, is still listed here, and
should have updated its STATUS file and moved its link to the successful
section.
In other words, congratulations. Now move it yourself. :-) Or
Martin,
The status file is required, and is the file you mentioned:
I updated the stdcxx status page last week with the change
below but I don't believe I have permissions to update the
site:
http://svn.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/incubator/public/trunk/site-author/project
David,
Someone from ftpserver is holding up the last phase of the
publishing process, we cannot do 'svn up' on the server.
Sorry, I didn't realize that it was a hard block. I'll fix it after dinner
by forcibly moving it where it belongs.
If someone would please explain to the ftpserver
I'll fix it after dinner by forcibly moving it where it belongs.
Done. The URL is http://incubator.apache.org/ftpserver/, as it should be,
and the local directory is /www/incubator.apcahe.org/ftpserver.
HOWEVER, I have not yet moved the project's directory sources. They are
under
David and Roy,
Actually, I did a mv of their entire site directory, so who knows which of
us did what first. :-)
And I just moved their SVN structure out from site-publish, so it should be
entirely out of your way. They can do whatever they want with it now, but
they should keep it under their
David,
Just that i don't like to break stuff if possible.
Perhaps i should be more ruthless.
It was breaking your ability to update our site. I decided to be ruthless,
in a harmless manner.
--- Noel
-
To
I expect that Rana meant to have that as the project's web site, and didn't
know where it belongs. The entire structure should be under
/www/incubator.apache.org, not under the projects directory, which should be
status files.
--- Noel
Edit the project permissions so that anyone in the developers list
can do those tasks (edit and close) and then be sure all of the
developers are in the ftpserver developers group.
Rana wasn't in the ftpserver-developers group. Is now.
--- Noel
Remind me if no one else gets to it first. As I write this note, I'm
sitting at LAX, without connectivity. I have no idea when this will
actually get posted.
Now that it appears that FTPServer has happily come back to life, I would
like to see a greater community grow around it.
---
Under repos/asf/incubator/projects/ftpserver/javadoc, it appears
that the entire Javadoc API for the project is committed to
site-publish.
Nothing except for the incubator site, itself, should be in that repository.
Projects have their own source control, and that's where their content
should
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
As far as whether just the code goes through incubation or whether the
whole community goes through incubation [if] the PMC believes that most
of the key committers are new to Apache, then they should have the
entire project incubated [but if the PMC] believes that their
Martin Sebor wrote:
I plan to put the tarball with the snapshot in
http://incubator.apache.org/stdcxx/snapshots
They would go under /www/cvs.apache.org/dist/incubator/stdcxx.
And don't forget that you need to follow the release guidelines in terms of
notices and naming convention, as I noted
Show where to send the completed form.
It should be filed in SVN, along with the rest of them. It is a record, not a
signed CLA or Software Grant.
--- Noel
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Justin,
If you are satisfied that the prior issues have been addressed, and if you
will verify that the incubation release guidelines are followed (e.g.,
disclaimers in the right places), you have my +1 as well.
--- Noel
David Crossley wrote:
I suggest that we go further and make it a requirement
of graduation from the Incubator that the project
already has some people helping at infra@
That can only apply if there are ASF Members willing to do it, because we
don't give apmail or root access to non-Members.
Cliff,
- change the Incubator PMC charter (not that we have a official
charter) to include approving of all new projects
To quote (or paraphrase) Roy, it is not the Incubator PMC's role to second
guess other ASF PMCs when it comes to introducing new ASF projects.
- ensure all proposals use
Sanjiva,
If the WS PMC has voted to incubate this project, you should be good to go.
Congrats on your new venture. Best of luck.
--- Noel
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Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
If the WS PMC has voted to incubate this project, you should be good to
go.
Oh! Don't we still need a vote?
If a PMC votes to submit a project for incubation, the Incubator PMC does
not vote; the project is accepted, and the mentors are added to the
Incubator PMC.
Craig McClanahan wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Snapshots are not releases. Releases require three binding +1s,
a majority of positive votes, and a verifiable signature.
I think it is absurd for any project to be distributing snapshots
to end-users since
Cliff Schmidt wrote:
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Please note that although we have attempted to establish
a balanced policy, it is not our goal to have widespread
adoption of projects that are still in the Incubator. We
want projects to be making a focused effort
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Snapshots are not releases. Releases require three binding +1s,
a majority of positive votes, and a verifiable signature.
I think it is absurd for any project to be distributing snapshots
to end-users since it bypasses our mechanism of oversight.
And this is true for
Eric Dittert wrote:
1) If you discourage making releases while in incubation,
aren't you effectively preventing projects that have,
through whatever mechanism, already acquired a
significant user base from entering the Apache fold
We do permit releases, with suitable disclaimer,
Leo Simons wrote:
Otherwise, people just copy-paste a maven project.xml snippet
and never realise what they have is not official apache
stuff (yet). We don't want that.
Correct, we most certainly do not.
In fact, there was recently a similar problem with an existing project and
an unofficial
While mod_mbox is ok for browsing[,] eyebrowse offers more
functionality (like searching, sorting by author e.g.)
Supposedly, mod_mbox is being enhanced.
Where is the problem with eyebrowse? Noone looking after it?
It has some problems, and since mod_mbox is being enhanced, we were going to
Craig Russell wrote:
Brett Porter wrote:
http://cvs.apache.org/repository is not synced to ibiblio.
I don't understand what this means in terms of our ability
to put jdo snapshots into ibiblio
It means that you don't. Brett provided the publically available repository
that can be used,
Brett,
Would you please write this up as general instructions for Incubator
projects, and we can add it to the web-site?
--- Noel
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Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
The FSF demands copyright ownership on all code - which means
that they don't allow their contributions to be available
under any other license. In contrast, the ASF only asks for
a copyright license and we don't care what other licenses you
grant other people.
So
robert burrell donkin wrote:
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
robert burrell donkin wrote:
may i suggest that a practical workaround for the issue (that started
this debate) would be to ask all contributors to use jira.
LOL. Yes, we're going to use JIRA. That's not the issue at all -
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