Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Dave Fisher
On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: ...Chris proposes that this committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be replaced, in large part, by the board itself. Every board member who has

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread ant elder
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.comwrote: On 3 April 2013 14:41, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater nsla...@apache.org wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Greg Stein
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: ...Chris proposes that this committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Greg Stein
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Ant is reflecting a real dilemma here. At Apache, we try to be egalitarian, and we try to work by consensus. The natural conclusion is that the many people needed to vote on releases are also part of the

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Greg Stein
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22 nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Benson Margulies
As I see it, the incubator as we have it is a mechanism for coping with the lack of mentor commitment. As Ross often writes, it's easy to say that Mentors *should* make this commitment, but mentors are volunteers, and things happen. Upayavira wonders if Mentor 'harvest glory' and then wander away.

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
Hi, On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 1:42 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: ...How about the following more incremental experiment: we do what Upayavira says: we set a higher bar for mentors at podling start time. We ask them to make a public statement of commitment that for some period

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Ross Gardler
On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Just a thought. Chris' solution says 'make mentors the initial PMC'. They vote in other project team members as appropriate to be peers. This creates a positive egalitarian setup which mirrors that of a PMC, which is a good

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:08 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.comwrote: Having said that, here's an idea that builds on your proposal. There is already the opportunity to name the board as the sponsoring organisation. Why not say where the board is willing to sponsor the project it can

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Ross Gardler
On 4 April 2013 08:46, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 2:26 AM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Apr 3, 2013, at 1:20 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz wrote: On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: ...Chris proposes

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Greg Stein
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: As I see it, the incubator as we have it is a mechanism for coping with the lack of mentor commitment. As Ross often writes, it's easy to say that Mentors *should* make this commitment, but mentors are volunteers,

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Greg Stein
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J)

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Marvin Humphrey
Benson writes: We ask them to make a public statement of commitment that for some period of time (six months) they commit to thinking of themselves _as a PMC_, not just as some sort of diffuse advisors or coaches... +1 to the change of mentality. Bertrand replies: I like that - I'd say 3

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 4:39 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: ...If Mentors fall away after phase 1 ends, it's less of a problem. Replacing Mentors is less consequential once the code base has reached the known good state of having made it through the release process

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Ross Gardler
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity On 4 Apr 2013 15:17, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 4, 2013 at 9:22 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM,

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-04 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (398J)
: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On 4 April 2013 09:06, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:20 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-03 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 11:18 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: ...Chris proposes that this committee recommend its own demise to the board, to be replaced, in large part, by the board itself. Every board member who has been heard from so far has been less than enthusiastic...

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-03 Thread ant elder
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 5:26 PM, Noah Slater nsla...@apache.org wrote: As far as I understand your comment, Ant, you mean to say that he problem is that there is too much variation in opinion and approach. (Primarily, I understand, in relation to releases.) Hi Noah, i suggested that one of

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-03 Thread Noah Slater
Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and confusing. It's hardly a wonder people disagree. ;) (This is just a bit of rhetoric. I hardly mean to imply the documentation is responsible for the

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-03 Thread ant elder
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater nsla...@apache.org wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and confusing. It's hardly a wonder people disagree. ;) (This is just a bit of

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-03 Thread Ross Gardler
On 3 April 2013 14:41, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 2:12 PM, Noah Slater nsla...@apache.org wrote: Thanks for the clarification, Ant. Is the documentation ignored? Whenever I look through it, it seems like the problem is that it is incomplete and confusing.

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Upayavira
: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Hi Ross, -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com Reply-To: general

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread ant elder
On Tue, Apr 2, 2013 at 10:17 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Chris, What I was trying to do with this particular thread is to identify the problems the incubator has before deciding on solutions. If we can get a common agreement on that, specific solutions will be much easier for us

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Noah Slater
As far as I understand your comment, Ant, you mean to say that he problem is that there is too much variation in opinion and approach. (Primarily, I understand, in relation to releases.) This doesn't seem related to the size of the PMC, to me. We're always going to need a large pool of people

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Benson Margulies
Ant is reflecting a real dilemma here. At Apache, we try to be egalitarian, and we try to work by consensus. The natural conclusion is that the many people needed to vote on releases are also part of the decision-making body for policy that controls those releases. The dilemma is that consensus

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
(was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) Ant is reflecting a real dilemma here. At Apache, we try to be egalitarian, and we try to work by consensus. The natural conclusion is that the many people needed to vote on releases are also part of the decision-making body for policy

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Ross Gardler
On 2 April 2013 22:18, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Ross' proposal sacrifices some egalitarianism to achieve better scaling of both decision-making and supervision. It is not my intention to sacrifice some egalitarianism. My intention is to allow those who have signed up to

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-02 Thread Niall Pemberton
general@incubator.apache.org Date: Monday, April 1, 2013 7:00 AM To: general-incubator general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-01 Thread Ross Gardler
Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22 nascent projects in the same manner

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-01 Thread Niall Pemberton
To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-04-01 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On Mon, Apr 1, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Hi Ross, -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com

Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Upayavira
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013, at 01:56 AM, Chris Douglas wrote: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Your position is that the IPMC fails to supervise. The consensus of the IPMC is that this is not true. Otherwise, someone would be reading the monthly

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Benson Margulies
To summarise. The incubator *is* broken (but not necessarily beyond repair). We need as many mentors as we can get, and a smaller group of people who are delegated responsibility for the incubator. The board wants a group of folks to take responsibility for overseeing the early life of

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) [..snip..] Chris M observes, if I may parody, that it's 'just like' the discredited umbrella projects, and proposes to fix this by making podlings even more like the standard model -- each one a TLP supervised by The Board. That's one part

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 6:08 PM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: ...Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22 nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs?... It's not. Well, maybe it is, but up to a point. The good thing

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: We need one set who are 'incubator people' and another who are 'mentors'. Disenfranchising mentors and hoarding power within a small circle of IPMC aristocrats is both unworkable and hypocritical. * It is unworkable because

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Upayavira
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013, at 07:12 PM, Marvin Humphrey wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: We need one set who are 'incubator people' and another who are 'mentors'. Disenfranchising mentors and hoarding power within a small circle of IPMC aristocrats is

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Christian Grobmeier
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 3:13 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: The Incubator has two acute, serious problems. 1. First releases are too hard. No surprise. This is incredible hard to read:

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Ross Gardler
On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22 nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs? Because they are not watching with the same manner. They are delegating a

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) On 31 March 2013 17:08, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Why is it so hard to see that the board is already watching those 22 nascent projects in the same manner they watch the 137 TLPs? Because

Re: Incubator structure (was Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-31 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Sun, Mar 31, 2013 at 12:01 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: I have heard a few people say they just want to mentor, without the rules discussion crap (see ml). Thats perfectly OK. But what do we need them on the IPMC? One of the chief responsibilities for a Mentor is

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-30 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 5:01 PM, Joe Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: As Doug points out, votes are structured away from the status quo- we don't ever vote to continue on with previously agreed to issues just to circumvent the voting process. Ok thanks Joe and Doug. So to be

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-30 Thread ant elder
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 8:47 AM, Matthias Friedrich m...@mafr.de wrote: As someone who is relatively new to the ASF and who's first behind the scenes contact with Apache was the incubation process, I can tell that this is absolutely true. Podlings find themselves in a kafkaesque world where

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-29 Thread Matthias Friedrich
On Thursday, 2013-03-28, Chris Douglas wrote: [...] Is this a question of standing, where material harm needs to be demonstrated? The IPMC is needlessly inefficient and abusive of its podlings. Novel compliance mechanisms are literally invented and argued about on general@ during podlings'

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-29 Thread Ross Gardler
@incubator.apache.org Date: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:20 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus I do not agree there is no IPMC oversight. The IPMC performs many actions each month which would fall

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-29 Thread Benson Margulies
: Thursday, March 28, 2013 4:20 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus I do not agree there is no IPMC oversight. The IPMC performs many actions each month which would fall to the board if the IPMC

Incubator Deconstruction (was Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-29 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus I do not agree there is no IPMC oversight. The IPMC performs many actions each month which would fall to the board if the IPMC were disbanded. That is why the IPMC submits a board

Re: Incubator Deconstruction (was Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-29 Thread Ross Gardler
general@incubator.apache.org Date: Friday, March 29, 2013 3:09 AM To: general general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus We clearly differ with our view if how much is delegated from board to IPMC. The amount of work the board does on x

Re: Incubator Deconstruction (was Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-29 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
: Re: Incubator Deconstruction (was Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus) Chris, The fundamental issue is that I don't agree the IPMC needs deconstructing. I believe it finds it difficult to come to a decision when unusual circumstance arises, but most of the time it does fine. I

Re: Incubator Deconstruction (was Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus)

2013-03-29 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: 2) more direct leadership that seeks basic consensus on very specific and clear new changes, but doesn't let discussions get weighed down with too many options, or stalled by a relative handful of -0s. The hard work

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Niall Pemberton niall.pember...@gmail.com wrote: I think it should be 3/4 majority. I agree that supermajority would be better than simple majority here. Moving to simple majority seems

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Christian Grobmeier
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Bertrand Delacretaz bdelacre...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Niall Pemberton niall.pember...@gmail.com wrote: I think it should be 3/4 majority. I agree that

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Benson Margulies
It appears to me that we have a consensus here on using a majority system with a 3/4 supermajority. I'd like to establish the existence of this consensus with a minimum of fuss, and begin to stop wasting everyone's time. Our goal here is to achieve consensus, not to hold votes. So, I'm going to

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:44 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: It appears to me that we have a consensus here on using a majority system with a 3/4 supermajority. I'd like to establish the existence of this consensus with a minimum of fuss, and begin to stop wasting everyone's

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Joseph Schaefer
Waah. Look this just DEFINES consensus as 75% instead of the old 100%. It doesn't throw consensus out the window. Please stop with all of these exaggerations and try to self-moderate- half of the volume in these debates is all you talking to yourself. On Mar 28, 2013, at 9:18 AM, ant elder

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread ant elder
No what it means Joe is that who chooses the wording of the vote gets a lot of control the outcome. ...ant On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Joseph Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: Waah. Look this just DEFINES consensus as 75% instead of the old 100%. It doesn't throw consensus out

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Joseph Schaefer
No more so than they already had. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 28, 2013, at 9:56 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: No what it means Joe is that who chooses the wording of the vote gets a lot of control the outcome. ...ant On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Joseph Schaefer

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Ross Gardler
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity On 28 Mar 2013 14:04, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) chris.a.mattm...@jpl.nasa.gov wrote: Hi Ross, On 3/27/13 11:33 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 27 Mar 2013 16:43, Greg Reddin gred...@gmail.com wrote: On

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
Hey Ross, I disagree. Chris' proposal removes the IPMC thus making the board legally responsible for everything that committee does today. Yes it replaces it with an oversight body, but how does that scale? Please let me respectfully disagree with your interpretation of my Incubator

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread ant elder
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 2:17 PM, Joseph Schaefer joe_schae...@yahoo.com wrote: No more so than they already had. It does Joe, let me give you a more clear example. Lets imagine i've done something that you deem shows i'm a terrible incubator mentor, and its not the first time. There's a big

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 5:29 PM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: ...With this new supermajority approach you'd need 75% or more of voters to agree with you to get me gone. Alternatively, you could say enough is enough and to end the debate you're going to call a vote to demonstrate i've

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Doug Cutting
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 9:29 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: Alternatively, you could say enough is enough and to end the debate you're going to call a vote to demonstrate i've the PMCs support - a vote on letting ant stay on. That sounds like you're being nice, but in fact you're

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Joe Schaefer
on with previously agreed to issues just to circumvent the voting process. From: ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com To: general@incubator.apache.org Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2013 12:29 PM Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus On Thu, Mar 28, 2013

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Doug Cutting cutt...@apache.org wrote: This sounds like a vote to support the status quo, which isn't something we normally do. The original proposal was limited to VOTEs on personnel issues (misspelled as personal). Has that changed? I hope not. One of the

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Benson Margulies
Would anyone be willing to write up the text that we would post on the web site someplace to document a procedure for voting upon IPMC membership that reflects this discussion? Perhaps we could then lazily converge upon that? On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 1:16 PM, Marvin Humphrey

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Dave Fisher
On Mar 28, 2013, at 9:19 AM, Mattmann, Chris A (388J) wrote: Hey Ross, I disagree. Chris' proposal removes the IPMC thus making the board legally responsible for everything that committee does today. Yes it replaces it with an oversight body, but how does that scale? Please let me

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Ross Gardler
I do not agree there is no IPMC oversight. The IPMC performs many actions each month which would fall to the board if the IPMC were disbanded. That is why the IPMC submits a board report. That being said, I think we ought to let this drop for now. Benson has stated he wants to address the

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Benson Margulies
Chris, Your position is that the IPMC fails to supervise. The consensus of the IPMC is that this is not true. Otherwise, someone would be reading the monthly report and objecting to the failure to report 'failure' to the board. If you want to change minds about this, you might need to come up

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Chris Douglas
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 4:30 PM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Your position is that the IPMC fails to supervise. The consensus of the IPMC is that this is not true. Otherwise, someone would be reading the monthly report and objecting to the failure to report 'failure' to the

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Would anyone be willing to write up the text that we would post on the web site someplace to document a procedure for voting upon IPMC membership that reflects this discussion? Perhaps we could then lazily converge

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
Hi Dave, -Original Message- From: Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net Reply-To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Date: Thursday, March 28, 2013 3:38 PM To: general@incubator.apache.org general@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Vote on personal matters: majority

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Mattmann, Chris A (388J)
: majority vote vs consensus I do not agree there is no IPMC oversight. The IPMC performs many actions each month which would fall to the board if the IPMC were disbanded. That is why the IPMC submits a board report. What specific actions would fall to the board in my proposal [1] outside of what

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-28 Thread Christian Grobmeier
On Fri, Mar 29, 2013 at 2:19 AM, Marvin Humphrey mar...@rectangular.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 11:23 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Would anyone be willing to write up the text that we would post on the web site someplace to document a procedure for voting upon IPMC

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread ant elder
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:52 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: Your second suggestion sounds like the thing to do to me - separating IPMC-ship and Mentor-ship - that would solve several of the problems we've being having including this one, it would open up a much bigger pool of

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 8:35 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:52 AM, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: ...Your second suggestion sounds like the thing to do to me - separating IPMC-ship and Mentor-ship... ...I'd like to try this, perhaps as a sort of

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Justin Mclean
Hi, As I said before I'm currently against having mentors who are not Incubator PMC members, As an aside it seems (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) in order to become a IPMC member you first need to be an Apache member (see bottom of [1]).This may exclude people with practical

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:44 AM, Justin Mclean justinmcl...@gmail.com wrote: ...As an aside it seems (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) in order to become a IPMC member you first need to be an Apache member (see bottom of [1])... you don't - Apache members can become IPMC members just

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Upayavira
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013, at 10:44 AM, Justin Mclean wrote: Hi, As I said before I'm currently against having mentors who are not Incubator PMC members, As an aside it seems (and please correct me if I'm mistaken) in order to become a IPMC member you first need to be an Apache member (see

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Benson Margulies
I suppose that as chair I ought to be heard from here. I've been off for Passover for a bit. In my view, the IPMC manifests two problems. I'd like to label them as 'operational' and 'decision-making'. This thread is about decision-making, but with some people seeing using terms like

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread ant elder
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Or it might 'work', but some might feel that this large, diffuse, group, operating by majority rules is either inconsistent with Apache policy or a bad example for the podlings. Thats more how i see it. Using

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Ross Gardler
The incubator is currently of a scale that means it can no longer operate as a standard consensus driven PMC. It is not that much smaller than the TLPs part of the foundation. Perhaps it would make sense to see how the model that has scaled well for the foundation can be applied here: ASF Members

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Ross Gardler
On 27 March 2013 15:54, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, i propose we have an experiment [1] where we try having a mentor or two who are not PMC members. Have some other experienced mentors helping to

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread ant elder
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 27 March 2013 15:54, ant elder ant.el...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:55 AM, Benson Margulies bimargul...@gmail.com wrote: Ok, i propose we have an experiment [1] where we try having a mentor or

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Greg Reddin
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.comwrote: Perhaps it would make sense to see how the model that has scaled well for the foundation can be applied here: ... [snip] ... Why can't the IPMC work like that? Well, to a large extent it does. Here are the

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Ross Gardler
On 27 Mar 2013 16:43, Greg Reddin gred...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.comwrote: Perhaps it would make sense to see how the model that has scaled well for the foundation can be applied here: ... [snip] ... Why can't the IPMC

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Christian Grobmeier
Hi, this is a very interesting proposal. Let me ask a few questions. On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Why shouldn't the IPMC create an equivalent to the one item in the above governance structure that is missing today. That is why shouldn't it

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Ross Gardler
Sent from a mobile device, please excuse mistakes and brevity On 27 Mar 2013 20:12, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, this is a very interesting proposal. Let me ask a few questions. On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 5:18 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Why

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Benson Margulies
The first thing I'd like to do, coordination-wise, is to call a vote on the proposal to decide things by majority. I think that this would help with some of the problems we hit, and we can meanwhile continue to discuss larger structural changes. On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 4:48 PM, Ross Gardler

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Niall Pemberton
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Roman Shaposhnik r...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to going for full-on majority voting is to recognize that a larger group is much more likely to have noisy vetoes by requiring that

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Joseph Schaefer
This whole exercise is pointless. Just drop the notion of vetoes for all IPMC votes and carry on as before. Sent from my iPhone On Mar 27, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Niall Pemberton niall.pember...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Roman Shaposhnik r...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Mar

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Doug Cutting
On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Niall Pemberton niall.pember...@gmail.com wrote: I think it should be 3/4 majority. I agree that supermajority would be better than simple majority here. Moving to simple majority seems too radical. Over time it's more prone to building a PMC that cannot easily

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-27 Thread Alex Karasulu
On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Niall Pemberton niall.pember...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 12:12 AM, Roman Shaposhnik r...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Ted Dunning ted.dunn...@gmail.com wrote: One alternative to going for full-on majority voting is to

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread ant elder
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, following a thread on private@, I would like to bring the discussion on how we vote on nominated IPMC members. We had the case were one person was nominated and received three +1. Another voter had concerns

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread Upayavira
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013, at 07:52 AM, ant elder wrote: On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, following a thread on private@, I would like to bring the discussion on how we vote on nominated IPMC members. We had the case were one person was

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread ant elder
On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Now, you might argue that mentoring is a lot more than voting, but we could create another bottleneck in getting release votes through, requiring votes from incubator PMC members who are not particularly focused on the

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread Bertrand Delacretaz
Hi, On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: ...We also have 172 IPMC members to date (according committer index). Most of the people are not seen often; we have many awol mentors. Currently becoming an IPMC member is necessary to become a Mentor. It

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread Andy Seaborne
On 25/03/13 08:41, ant elder wrote: On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 8:36 AM, Upayavira u...@odoko.co.uk wrote: Now, you might argue that mentoring is a lot more than voting, but we could create another bottleneck in getting release votes through, requiring votes from incubator PMC members who are not

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-25 Thread Marvin Humphrey
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: So I am proposing now to reconsider Joes original proposal and change our community voting to a majority voting unless we restructure the IPMC. +1 for majority voting on personnel issues for the IPMC. I'm also fine

Re: Vote on personal matters: majority vote vs consensus

2013-03-24 Thread Roman Shaposhnik
On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 1:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote: We have not found a consens, but one might highlight Roy Fieldings e-mail: http://s.apache.org/royCommitterVeto I still think like Joe and feel that consensus should not apply in the IPMC. We are way to different

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