Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) possible. They're going about it the wrong way (still). small - embedded (J2ME) pipe dream. If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang win. No. Bytecodes + built-in security (sandboxes, etc.) make java a substantial win for Telephone operators. C# is not yet prepared for taking this market. Solutions like ActiveX are a mess to deploy and suffer from logistic (deploy for a hundred hardware variants), reliability (crashes in user C/C++ code) and big security problems (bad security model). The telephones that we will see in the next couple of years will use java. And this is a substantial market (in the thousands of millions units) where Sun wants to take their license for every telephone sold, and sell at the same time their java hardware and expertise (read J2EE) in the server side to the operators and service providers. If it stays small, Palm and KR win. Sun has to bet on something in between or start making Java native chips again.. Its a pipe dream of a business plan. I think it is actually working well for Sun, from what I see in their relation with big mobile operators and handset makers. Whether Sun will survive to a mature multiplatform C# solution with the ability to run java applets (midlets...) is another thing. Don't forget that Microsoft are better when they arrive second to the market (see IBM MS-DOS, Digital Research solution vs Windows, Lotus/Excel, WordPerfect/Word, dBase/SQL Server,...) why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). don't forget that they have a good sales channel to big corporations like banks, phone operators, utility companies,... Quite often better than the one MS has. Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. perhaps. I feel like I'm legacy myself. I feel lazy about switching to C# stuff. I feel older every day that passes ;) Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to mak e java solid. probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's interests, if that changes so does Sun). I agree that we have been used. We are used every day. But I feel happy overall with my java experience. Programming in java is funny (like it was in the Smalltalk days, even with some lisps). Programming against current MS APIs is *not* fun. I don't feel abused by the Sun people WRT java. From the beginning I saw Sun as I see them now. Even if I regret that they do not Open Source java, the market will never be the same after their (wise) move back then. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend. If maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an objective for Mono then it will fail. The 3000 lb gorilla will never loose control of its illegitimate child. Regarding C#. I still think I'd rather learn D www.digitalmars.com/d I've seen they still have pointers. I will not go there until they drop them. ;) WRT crossplatform stuff, time is coming when we will impose *our* laws. With linux becoming a major player in the OS level (and I bet it will be a player in the desktop market real soon), crossplatform is beginning to be their problem, rather than ours. As OpenSource works in public, with no hidden
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. BUT THERE WON'T BE! you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy I don't respond to personal attacks. If you think thats a personal attack then ... the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed). Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage from COM and .NET etc. Have you actually looked at the language? er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is enough to make it one of the best releases yet. So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as I know and what was pushed back etc. Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :) -- Cheers, Pete --- Don't take life too seriously -- you'll never get out of it alive. --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
snip/ Become a strategist. There will always a need for people telling people what they should do next. At least for people that does not read these lists. ;) Where do I sign? :-) I'm always happy telling people what they should do next ;-). -Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: need help!!!
The best place to post a question like this is the Struts USER list. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html ¶ª ¶ª wrote: hello! I am a java developer,and I used Struts for serval days..but i found something wrong whit struts. For a chinese,I use gb2312 code ..and i write the APPLICATIONRECOURCES in chinese.but it appears bad code ,i must change encoding in IE...but why? i also changed the text from struts-example, and the same things happend.. please help me!!! iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl; iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl; iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;diudiu iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;[EMAIL PROTECTED] iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;iexcl;2002-01-23 _ ÏíÓÃÊÀ½çÉÏ×î´óµÄ Web µç×ÓÓʼþϵͳ ¡ª¡ª MSN Hotmail¡£ http://www.hotmail.com/cn -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Java Web Development with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
On Fri, 1 Feb 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote: Date: Fri, 1 Feb 2002 16:16:55 -0600 From: Morgan Delagrange [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED], Morgan Delagrange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: General Jakarta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan I would like to nominate Craig McClanahan for re-election to the PMC. I accept nomination for re-election to the PMC. You can find out more about me on the Struts Who We Are page: http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/userGuide/volunteers.html At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and at the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over to Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people that the Sun code sucked ;-). (Want proof? Just go back to the sources for Tomcat 3.0, but don't do this on a full stomach ;-). Over the last couple of years, I've been a big-time contributor on Tomcat (Catalina's architecture is basically what Apache JServ 2.0 was going to be), Struts (I'm the primary architect), and Commons. Along the way, I've been somewhat less involved with Taglibs and Watchdog. I'm also a pretty good chunk of Apache's user support on the TOMCAT-USER list. I believe in Apache's goals w.r.t. open sourcing Java. I don't have a lot of patience for diatribes and mailing list flame fests -- they tend to be counterproductive to these goals. Therefore, you'll see more CVS commits than discussion participation from me when the topic strays in those directions. (Interestingly, the overall level of CVS commits seems to be inversely proportional to the vitriol in the current discussions ...) One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun. If that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be judged on what they do, not who they work for. (I'm sure you can find plenty of other reasons not to vote for me, if that's what you want ;-). - Morgan Delagrange Craig McClanahan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: PMC Nomination - Craig McClanahan
On Wed, 06 Feb 2002 09:29:39 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. McClanahan ROCKS! +1 At 12:32 PM 2/6/02 -0500, you wrote: Craig McClanahan wrote: At Apache, I got involved in the Apache JServ project before there was a Jakarta (along with other long timers like Jon, Pier, and Stefano), and at the ApacheCon just after the Tomcat source code was finally handed over to Apache, told James Duncan Davidson in front of several hundred people that the Sun code sucked ;-). I was at that ApacheCon and can corroborate that Craig did exactly that. One last note -- as most of you are probably aware, I work for Sun. If that fact, by itself, affects your vote, then you need to think about how much you really believe in Apache's credo that contributors should be judged on what they do, not who they work for. 1 - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Are 3 votes necessary for the PMC nomination? [was: Re: To jvoteor not to jvote]
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002, Morgan Delagrange wrote: So, what was the answer to the question below? If we really do need two +1s for a nomination, then I have some campaigning to do! (Unless someone else wants to go ahead and +1 me, if only to shut me up. ;) At this point the rules posted for the election do not require a nominee to be seconded; they just require someone to be nominated and the nominee to agree to be willing to take part in the election. If desired we can work this habit of the group to vocally second nominations into the procedure for the future :-) So in short. NO. Dw -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Ted Husted
Assuming there is a sufficient number of willing candidates to fill the seven slots, I would respectfully decline my nomination, so as to ensure someone else the chance to serve. It's been my experience that the best way to build community is to not only participate yourself, but also to give others the chance to step up to bat, and this seems like a good opportunity to do that =:0) In the event another person is needed to serve on the Committee to fill the seven seats, I would be happy to volunteer again. -Ted. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'. If not for other reasons, for this alone, Costin has my (now ruled useless) +1. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache
On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:49, Bill Barker wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:36 PM Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'. If not for other reasons, for this alone, Costin has my (now ruled useless) +1. Big +1 from me too. Wouldn't it be great if it was a requirement for PMC peeps to think this way :) -- Cheers, Pete *-* | Programming today is a race between software engineers | | striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof | | programs,and the universe trying to produce bigger and | | better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. | | - Richard Cook| *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
