Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
At 06:56 11.02.2001 -0500, you wrote: From the junit.org website: JUnit is a regression testing framework written by Erich Gamma and Kent Beck. It is used by the developer who implements unit tests in Java. I don't want to get into a discussion of whether JUnit is good or bad that will get us as far as a discussion on which editor everyone should use (which of course there is just one clear choice - the one I use 8-) But from by quick glances at JUnit what struck me was that it seems like a test tool for the "Java Developer" not a "Tester". I could be wrong, but it appears that you have to write Java code in order to create new testcases. That might be a fine way to go, but I prefer to have something a non-programmer could use. I wrote my test tool with the premise that it would be used by a testing department which may or may not have any programming skills, and by keeping it nontechnical (or as much as possible) it can be used by a wider range of people - including developers. I am personally convinced that not only does the tester have to be a programmer, the tester has to be an *excellent* programmer. The tester has to understand the original piece of code and predict the ways in which it can fail and catch those failures. Thus, the tester's burden is heavier than the original coder and he/she gets little of the glory. In many circles, juniors write test code, then become developers, then project managers and at the end managers. The order should be reversed. One should start a career by becoming a manager, then a project manager, then a developer and culminate as a tester. :-) Expecting non-developers to write effective test code is beyond the limits of my imagination. Regards, Ceki Just a personal choice, but I think you should be able to add new testcases with the minimal amount of effort and having to write Java code doesn't fit that bill, IMHO. -Dug Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/11/2001 01:50:15 AM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal on 2/10/01 1:06 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have analyzed JUnit and feel it doesn't address our needs, nor the integration testing needs, though we like it's Ant base. What would it take to make JUnit address your needs? I'm tired of hearing people start new projects without also giving details about exactly why they can't do the work to make existing projects more compatible for their needs. thanks, -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ Ceki Glc e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred) av. de Rumine 5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] CH-1005 Lausanne SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Doug Davis typed the following on 06:56 AM 2/11/2001 -0500 From the junit.org website: JUnit is a regression testing framework written by Erich Gamma and Kent Beck. It is used by the developer who implements unit tests in Java. But from by quick glances at JUnit what struck me was that it seems like a test tool for the "Java Developer" not a "Tester". I could be wrong, but it appears that you have to write Java code in order to create new testcases. That might be a fine way to go, but I prefer to have something a non-programmer could use. I wrote my test tool with the premise that it would be used by a testing department which may or may not have any programming skills, and by keeping it nontechnical (or as much as possible) it can be used by a wider range of people - including developers. Maybe you could write a non-programming abstraction layer for JUnit: something which takes XML input (which can be generated by a GUI if you want to get really fancy), and generates JUnit test code. I guess it's moot if you've already gone and written your own tool from the ground up. Kief - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[GUMP] Any Turbine developers here?
Sometime Wednesday a change was made to Turbine that broke it's build. It is now Sunday and the build is still broken. You can see the results here: http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-02-08/turbine.html My goal over the next week is to get these builds to the point where they mostly succeed and then offer a subscription service to any person or mailing list who is interested in being notified on failures. This will only work if there are volunteers interested in keeping their project building clean. Below is a patch which fixes this problem. - Sam Ruby Index: BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java === RCS file: /products/cvs/turbine/turbine/src/java/org/apache/turbine/modules/screens/BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java,v retrieving revision 1.5 diff -u -r1.5 BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java --- BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java 2001/02/08 01:40:13 1.5 +++ BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java 2001/02/11 13:48:01 @@ -70,6 +70,7 @@ import org.apache.turbine.services.resources.TurbineResources; import org.apache.turbine.services.freemarker.*; import org.apache.turbine.services.*; +import org.apache.turbine.services.template.*; // FreeMarker Stuff import freemarker.template.*; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [*] Anyway, my point being that I'm really getting tired of being misread, misunderstood and being considered the general pain in the ass around here. My being here isn't helpful for me and it certainly isn't helpful for the community. [elegy] So long and thanks for all the fish. You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? -- Jan-Henrik Haukeland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [GUMP] Any Turbine developers here?
Hi Sam, I will definitely keep an eye on the repository. This wasn't being seen because we no longer keep the freemarker jar in the Turbine repository so none of the freemarker files are usually compiled because most Turbine developers use Velocity. I will apply the patch and keep on top of gump as I have a working copy on my machine now! I love gump! jvz. On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Sam Ruby wrote: Sometime Wednesday a change was made to Turbine that broke it's build. It is now Sunday and the build is still broken. You can see the results here: http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-02-08/turbine.html My goal over the next week is to get these builds to the point where they mostly succeed and then offer a subscription service to any person or mailing list who is interested in being notified on failures. This will only work if there are volunteers interested in keeping their project building clean. Below is a patch which fixes this problem. - Sam Ruby Index: BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java === RCS file: /products/cvs/turbine/turbine/src/java/org/apache/turbine/modules/screens/BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java,v retrieving revision 1.5 diff -u -r1.5 BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java --- BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java 2001/02/08 01:40:13 1.5 +++ BaseFreeMarkerScreen.java 2001/02/11 13:48:01 @@ -70,6 +70,7 @@ import org.apache.turbine.services.resources.TurbineResources; import org.apache.turbine.services.freemarker.*; import org.apache.turbine.services.*; +import org.apache.turbine.services.template.*; // FreeMarker Stuff import freemarker.template.*; - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sorry - where is the techncal list?
sorry for the interruption, but I'm looking for the list to which technical questions on tomcat (in particular) can be posed - I see many of the names I would expect but, lately, this now seems to be a list for discussions of organizational and infrastructure issues and I just have (probably simple) questions on tomcat and related items. If this is the technical questions list (it is what I had watched for a while), may I respsectfully suggest that a new list be formed for organizational issues and such - I know these are important, but they seem to be producing a lot of conversation and causing technical questions to, sort of, get lost in the volume. -- Wishing you an "OOBA OOBA" 21st Century (at last) Horace...once known as "Kicker" :-) Horace Vallas hav.Software http://www.hav.com/ P.O. Box 354 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Richmond, Tx. 77406-0354 voice: 281-341-5035 USAfax: 281-341-5087 Thawte Web Of Trust Notary in SW Houston, Tx. http://www.hav.com/?content=/thawteWOTnotary.htm ...drop by and chat if I'm online http://www.hav.com/chat/ === === === === === === === === === === What is a Vet? ... He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel. ... - Unknown http://www.hav.com/vet.htm S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: sorry - where is the techncal list?
Horace Vallas wrote: sorry for the interruption, but I'm looking for the list to which technical questions on tomcat (in particular) can be posed - I see many of the names I would expect but, lately, this now seems to be a list for discussions of organizational and infrastructure issues and I just have (probably simple) questions on tomcat and related items. You might consider the tomcat-user and tomcat-dev lists : http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html read that, and follow the link at the bottom. geir If this is the technical questions list (it is what I had watched for a while), may I respsectfully suggest that a new list be formed for organizational issues and such - I know these are important, but they seem to be producing a lot of conversation and causing technical questions to, sort of, get lost in the volume. -- Wishing you an "OOBA OOBA" 21st Century (at last) Horace...once known as "Kicker" :-) Horace Vallas hav.Software http://www.hav.com/ P.O. Box 354 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Richmond, Tx. 77406-0354 voice: 281-341-5035 USAfax: 281-341-5087 Thawte Web Of Trust Notary in SW Houston, Tx. http://www.hav.com/?content=/thawteWOTnotary.htm ...drop by and chat if I'm online http://www.hav.com/chat/ === === === === === === === === === === What is a Vet? ... He is the barroom loudmouth, dumber than five wooden planks, whose overgrown frat-boy behavior is outweighed a hundred times in the cosmic scales by four hours of exquisite bravery near the 38th parallel. ... - Unknown http://www.hav.com/vet.htm -- Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Velocity : it's not just a good idea. It should be the law. http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote: So long and thanks for all the fish. You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? I admit that I have a history of being obtuse, but the above sequence of words strikes me as particularly ironic. For those who care, http://www.sf.co.yu/science/hitchh4.htm . Meanwhile, I will readily agree that Jon is at times - OK, quite frequenty; oh, all right, pretty much all of the time - is a pain in the ass. But it is also important to realize that without him being exactly the way he is, this little community that we all are a part of quite possibly wouldn't be here. And Tomcat 3.3 probably wouldn't have a ratified release plan or nearly as many volunteers to support it. Nor would we be aware of the extent of the overlap between the various subprojects. Whether everyone here realizes it or not, we get a lot of benefit from Jon being here. It just is a shame that more people don't take the effort to return the favor sometimes. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
And Tomcat 3.3 probably wouldn't have a ratified release plan or nearly as many volunteers to support it. +1. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Struts? (was: Re: What is Avalon?)
on 2/11/01 2:47 AM, "Jim Driscoll" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And contribs didn't fall into a black hole, which is way more important than the license. Yup. That probably had way more to do with tying to the Apache brand than the OS nature of the licensing terms. If Sun'd released Tomcat under some open source license without tying to Apache, things might have turned out quite different. Hmmm...I don't know about that. Personally speaking, I would have contributed to Tomcat if it had been held under a BSD'ish license no matter where it lived... My criteria are: #1. Easy access to CVS. #2. Good mailing lists. #3. Ability to contribute easily. Back in Sept 1997, I originally forked JServ over to working-dogs.com because none of the above was true. License != community. As I'm sure you're in a good position to know :-) Actually, I disagree. I don't care about how good the GNU community is. I don't like the license and I don't want to contribute to software under it. Fixing the license part is hard. Fixing the community part is now Duncan's job. Go, Duncan! Yup. Err, select()? The point of the post was that it was claimed that select() should be easy to do - so I asked him to prove it. Why should he write software for Sun for free? If it is so easy to implement, then Sun should have the people they pay do it. Otherwise, release the code under a license and community that is open so that people who contribute don't feel like they are working for Sun for free. :-) -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
on 2/11/01 7:31 AM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? Go back and read my email again. What I said is that I was not going to take part in PMC level decisions. -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
(John, combined response to your two notes): I didn't just read that one line on the Web Site - but I was using it as an example of what I think the problem is with JUnit. However, that being said, I will be honest enough to admit that I didn't go too much further than download the product do a quick look through the docs so please correct me if I'm wrong but you have to write code in order to test with JUnit, right? To me testcases need to be so easy to write that people won't look at it like a pain-in-the-*ss-chore that they have to do just to satisfy some little check-list. Perhaps JUnit can be extended to solve all the worlds problems but from what I saw it required more work from a tester than I think non-programming-testers would want to do. But that's just my opinion. -Dug Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/11/2001 02:58:37 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal on 2/11/01 9:10 AM, "Doug Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kief wrote: Maybe you could write a non-programming abstraction layer for JUnit: something which takes XML input (which can be generated by a GUI if you want to get really fancy), and generates JUnit test code. I guess it's moot if you've already gone and written your own tool from the ground up. True that might be possible, and might be the way to go, but I'd prefer to have it go the other way and have hooks from my test tool into JUnit 8-) mainly because I see JUnit as more specialized while mine is more generic. So having the generic one call the specialized one seems more natural to me than the other way around. -Dug Work with the JUnit people to integrate your product directly with JUnit so that more people can benefit! Why can't you see that? Why do you have to start another project? Why is there this sourceforge (bazillion projects with one developer) mentality? :-( -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Now you're missing my point. 8-) Too bad I don't like fish. If it were as simple as JUnit missing one or two little pieces of function then I would try to get them to add it. But from what I saw JUnit's entire premise for testing is different than what I want. It's just a matter of taste - they're focused on *Java* unit testing, I'm focused on a broader any-language system testing (even though I hate calling it system testing). I know that I'll probably never convince you of it, but I do believe that they are radically different paradigms. And if it turns out that a lot of people agree with you then it'll never be accepted by Apache and life will go on... -Dug ps. Sorry about the "Jo*h*n", I noticed it just after I hit the "send" button. Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/11/2001 05:08:55 PM Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal on 2/11/01 1:15 PM, "Doug Davis" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (John, combined response to your two notes): JON. Please spell my name correctly. :-) I didn't just read that one line on the Web Site - but I was using it as an example of what I think the problem is with JUnit. However, that being said, I will be honest enough to admit that I didn't go too much further than download the product do a quick look through the docs so please correct me if I'm wrong but you have to write code in order to test with JUnit, right? To me testcases need to be so easy to write that people won't look at it like a pain-in-the-*ss-chore that they have to do just to satisfy some little check-list. That is a great feature to add to JUnit. Perhaps JUnit can be extended to solve all the worlds problems but from what I saw it required more work from a tester than I think non-programming-testers would want to do. But that's just my opinion. -Dug Again, I think that you have totally missed my point because what you are repeating back to me isn't along with what I'm telling you. :-( I will try one more time before I ask Sam to go down to your office an explain it to you. :-) Lets use Sam as an example here: Ant didn't allow him to override classpaths the way that he wanted to be able to in order to support the fact that no one is using Ant properly with regards to classpaths (I'm sure I'm one of those people, so yes, I'm bashing myself. smile). Instead of creating his own version of Ant, he simply added the functionality into Ant to allow him to do what he wanted. He worked with the lead developers to explain the problem and find a resolution. The point being that: It doesn't matter that JUnit doesn't do what you want. The fact of the matter is that instead of creating yet another project to do Unit testing, you should work with the JUnit people to help mold JUnit into what you want. The reason being: It creates a better product and a better community when we all work together. Now, if the JUnit people didn't want to have that functionality built in or if their license wasn't compatible (fyi, it is the IBM Public License), I could understand doing a fork, but that obviously doesn't seem to be the case. Conclusion: You have no excuse for not working with them to help improve their product other than your lack of wanting to work together with people. If that conclusion is really true, then please don't ask to have your project hosted here because this forum is about working together. :-) love, -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Jon Stevens wrote: I will try one more time before I ask Sam to go down to your office an explain it to you. I've been to his office. Suffice it to say that he has about as thick of a head as, well, some of the people around here. ;-) Lets use Sam as an example here: [snip] Good example, as far as it goes. The rest of the story is that the bulk of my work was layered on top of Ant. I'm in the process of joining forces with another incubator project (Alexandria) to complete this work. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[GUMP] Any James developers here?
It looks like Avalon has been steadily deprecating interfaces that James has been depending on. Now James is broken. http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/gump/2001-02-11/james.html Who wants to volunteer to look into it? Standard reason: if one wants to deploy a server solution involving multiple Apache Jakarta subprojects, each of which depend on different point in time snapshots of Avalon, which version of the avalonapi.jar should one put into the classpath first? - Sam Ruby P.S. Kudos to the Avalon team for deprecating interfaces. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Test Infrastructure Project Proposal
Ross Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having spent all day upto my arm pits in bits of cocoon, xerces and xalan, I've come to the conclusion that tracking down bugs in bits of cocoon can be nearly impossible at the moment. How would you guys feel about us starting to use JUnit to run unit tests over cocoon? First, sorry for the large cross-posting. But I wanted to make sure this note is received by a large audience. Replies should be sent only to [EMAIL PROTECTED] (I'm not subscribed to [EMAIL PROTECTED]). Xalan being a project that 1) requires a *lot* of testing, and 2) is sandwiched inbetween Cocoon and Xerces, 3) is dependent on other technologies like BSF, and 4) is used in several other pipeline scenarios, we (i.e. the folks at Lotus who are involved in the Xalan project) have been doing a lot of thinking about this subject. What is happening in the XML/Web world is the integration of a lot of smaller components, plugged together via (hopefully) standard interfaces. This increases the need for unit testing, and integration testing in a big way. In systems such as we are building, robustness is everything, and fragility is becoming an increasing problem. I feel this is probably the most critical issue xml.apache.org and the Jakarta projects are facing, even above performance issues. The days have ended when Xerces can release without testing with Xalan, and Xalan can release without testing with Cocoon, etc. Also, I feel what we are all practising is pretty close to "Extreme Programming" (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/), by our very motto of "release early and often". Extreme programming is very reliant on having a *lot* of tests that are constantly run (see http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/unittests.html and http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/functionaltests.html). This means that tests must be very fast to create, easy to plug in, easy to have them become part of the perminant acceptence tests, running the tests must be extremely convenient, and diagnosing problems from the reports must also be easy. And when a bug is found by a user, a test should almost always be added to the acceptence tests (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/rules/bugs.html). We have analyzed JUnit and feel it doesn't address our needs, nor the integration testing needs, though we like it's Ant base. I propose a project for testing infrastructure, that covers the needs of unit testing, stress testing, performance testing, negative testing (i.e. testing of error conditions), integration testing, and error logging and reporting. I don't know or care if this is a Jakarta project or an xml.apache.org project. I believe the Jakarta project has been thinking somewhat along these lines? The Xalan project already has a fair amount of infrastructure that we would be happy to contribute. But basically, I think we should start first with requirements, then a schema for reporting (i.e. design the data first), go next to interfaces, and then decide what existing code can be used. Thoughts? Does anyone want to -1 this? If not, where should it live? (I suspect the answer is in Jakarta, next to Ant). What should it be named? What are the next steps? Who should be the founders? And what about C-language integration testing, as well as other languages (which might argue against a home in Jakarta?)? Again, sorry for the large cross-posting, but I think it's time for this issue to get full attention from all the projects. -scott Ross Burton ross.burton@To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mail.comcc: (bcc: Scott Boag/CAM/Lotus) Sent by: Subject: Re: [C2] Unit testing. ross@itzinter active.com 02/10/2001 09:37 AM Please respond to
