Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Colin Chalmers]

To build on what Micael said,

It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no
bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a
bit premature don't you think?

/Colin


> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
> amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
>
> At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > >
> > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying
something
> > > like this about June of 2002.
> >
> >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> >
> > > 
> > >
> > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's
not
> > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> >
> >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> >
> >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> >
> >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> >avoid all this.
> >
> >--
> >Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> >   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>
>
> --
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>


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Re: EJB = bad = MS.net [People are stupid!]

[dIon Gillard]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>There are times when a scalable remoteable solution is necessary. 
>Granted these are 1 in 100 projects, (or fewer).  Secondly, EJB is
>purely a bad implementation of this.
>
Note how many good ones you're citing...

>I recommend we table this discussion, it has drawn on.  EJB/J2EE
>bitch-fest is not something that has a logical conclusion.  I suggest
>participation in the design and development of AltiRMI and AJB (sp on
>both?) is a more productive discussion.  Slam EJB by getting something
>far better up on Jakarta.
>
Go for itso far noone one the con side has provided any decent 
arguments about how/why EJBs are bad, just slamming WebLogic doesn't 
really make much of an argument.

>
>
>-Andy
>
>On Fri, 2002-02-22 at 23:22, Aaron Smuts wrote:
>
>>With EJB you complicate the deployment, slow down the performance and
>>save nothing except looking for middleware modules.  Gee, I just don't
>>know where I'd find a connection pool or a logger or a single phase
>>transaction management system.  Good thing I have Weblogic to save me so
>>much time.  I'm glad I only have to wait 5 minutes for the damn thing to
>>restart.
>>
>>I've migrated my current application out of EJB's (weblogic) because
>>they do nothing but slow down the application and the development life
>>cycle.  I don't like programming in xml and having to shutdown
>>production to make patches.  The appserver specific deployment files
>>make them unportable and vendor dependent.  Weblogic tries its best to
>>lock you into T3 and its deployment.
>>
>>For most modest transactional needs, you can out build and out perform
>>any appserver using the JDBC.
>>
>>You can't even get small result sets with reasonable performance using
>>EJB.
>>
>>No matter what you try to do with EJB, I can provide a simpler, faster,
>>more scalable, and cheaper solution.
>> 
>>
>>>1) CTO (or some manager) gets the idea the EJBs are cool (after
>>>
>>reading a
>>
>>>BEA press release) and decides that his team's next project will be
>>>
>>done
>>
>>>using EJBs - without any thought as to whether EJBs are the correct
>>>
>>tool
>>
>>>for the Job.
>>>
>>Amen.
>>
>>This is exactly the problem.  
>>
>>Aaron
>>
-- 
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
http://www.multitask.com.au/developers




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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Tim Hyde wrote:
> Andrus,
> 
> I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that your
> proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
> 
> I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
> (or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
> the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in any
> architecture.

We still will depend on certain commercial JVM's (Sun or IBM), right?



> Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
> you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
> oriented.
> 
> Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's 'fashion'
> than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
> expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
> anyway. :-)

You are right. I was mentioning Web applications just cause I wanted to 
limit initial scope to something sane. And I guess because I am myself 
is a better expert in this area then in any other. This would've helped 
to concentrate on a certain solution-based approach from the beginning. 
But I agree we can widen the scope as long as we can outline the 
problems being solved.

> 
> So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
> for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
> underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
> as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
> project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.

+1, like I said above, I am for it if we define use cases we are going 
after.


> Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially, but
> it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
> distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.
> 
> In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
> marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
> weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
> 'serious' tools.
> 
> This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
> logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful, EJB=Bad,
> etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
> alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
> activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to be
> a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
> technicians.
> 
> But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you on
> this.

yes, this should be the starting point

> 
> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available, the
> number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
> dream, anyway.

+1. I am an independent consultant myself, and I would stick with a 
technology that
- allows me to concentrate on customer requirements rather then 
repetitive coding tasks,
- offers strong design direction,
- implemented most of the standard tasks already.

The only thing that would prevent me from using such technology is that 
customer's CIO has never read about it in JDJ.

> 
> I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
> name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
> because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
> Dominant :-)
> 
> But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think marketing
> eventually !!

I like the name Tonic, but I think Open Enterprise Distribution may 
actually serve that same marketing goal better. It does sound ..umm.. 
serious or something :-)

.
-- 
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Tim Hyde]

Andrus,

I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that your
proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.

I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
(or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in any
architecture.

Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
oriented.

Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's 'fashion'
than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
anyway. :-)

So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.

Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially, but
it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
distribution would be offered as having wide applicability.

In particular, I believe that if a thing like this is available *and gets
marketed* (in the Red Hat sense) properly, we could start to see the
weakening of the Dilbert idea that only vendor-supplied products are
'serious' tools.

This *marketing* focus is the very thing I had settled on as being the
logical conclusion of the recent threads (J2EE considered harmful, EJB=Bad,
etc). A way to bring the marketplace to see that there are better
alternatives than the Dark Lords. Hence the marketing side (meaning actual
activity to spread the word and work in PR mode with the media) needs to be
a vital part of this project, needing volunteers of a different sort than
technicians.

But assembling the distribution first is very important, and I'm with you on
this.

One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were available, the
number of independent consultants who could offer their support services
would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, eliminating that
argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. Well, we can
dream, anyway.

I had been considering a project along these lines, and had thought of the
name 'Tonic', both because it might revive a sickening architecture and
because the Tonic (in musical terms) is where you want to go after the
Dominant :-)

But, if OED is the same thing, yes, what's in a name ? But, think marketing
eventually !!

- Tim

- Original Message -
From: Andrus Adamchik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 24 February 2002 21:38
Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?


>
> Meaningful names are OK with me too :-) . Suggested versions revolve
> around Enterprise Distribution idea. I personally like "Open Enterprise
> Distribution", with OED acronym used interchangebly. I will register SF
> project under this name and let everybody know when the registration
> goes through.
>
>
>
> Bill Barnhill wrote:
> > How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
> > Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
> >
> > Just my two cents,
> > Bill Barnhill
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
> > Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> >
> >
> >
> >>Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive names that
> >>mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
> >>
> >>:-)
> >>
> >>You asked...  What's in a name?
> >>
> >>-Andy
> >>
>
>
> --
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>



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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Paul Hammant]

Bill, Andrew, Andrus, Marc,

>How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
>Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
>
Recap:  This is a webapp project you are talking of?  Or something that 
serves multiple server components (from Apache and others).

The below was a project I very briefly worked on with many others to 
produce a server that presented JBoss, Tomcat, Hypersonic, Cocoon, 
Turbine, JetSpeed all in one VM.  It was callled OpenJODA then, now with 
a new codebase and renamed Jahia:

  http://www.xo3.com:8080/

Regards,

- Paul H


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That 
amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?

At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
>James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> >
> > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> >
> > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > like this about June of 2002.
>
>uh, I take this as a compliment :)
>
> > 
> >
> > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > worth fighting all the battles at once.
>
>Wise words, brother, wise words.
>
>But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
>
>Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
>avoid all this.
>
>--
>Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 



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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Meaningful names are OK with me too :-) . Suggested versions revolve 
around Enterprise Distribution idea. I personally like "Open Enterprise 
Distribution", with OED acronym used interchangebly. I will register SF 
project under this name and let everybody know when the registration 
goes through.



Bill Barnhill wrote:
> How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
> Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE
> 
> Just my two cents,
> Bill Barnhill
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
> Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> 
> 
> 
>>Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive names that
>>mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
>>
>>:-)
>>
>>You asked...  What's in a name?
>>
>>-Andy
>> 


-- 
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Andrew C. Oliver]

You laugh...

IT HAS BEEN PROPOSED!!!

http://www.mail-archive.com/cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org/msg10094.html

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 15:20, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> 
> >
> > Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> > avoid all this.
> >
> 
> I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
> run them on Cocoon?  Rats ...
> 
> :-)
> 
> 
> Craig
> 
> 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

>
> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.
>

I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
run them on Cocoon?  Rats ...

:-)


Craig


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I keep telling you:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/

Get this guy to release it APL and then we can get up and go!

:-)

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 04:28, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
> James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > 
> > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > 
> > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > like this about June of 2002.
> 
> uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> 
> > 
> > 
> > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> 
> Wise words, brother, wise words.
> 
> But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> 
> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.
> 
> -- 
> Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> 
> On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> 
> Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> like this about June of 2002.

uh, I take this as a compliment :)

> 
> 
> You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> worth fighting all the battles at once.

Wise words, brother, wise words.

But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/

Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
avoid all this.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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RE: The Complete Server Platform?

[Marc Saegesser]

QED --> Quality Enterprise Distribution (or Quite Easy Dummy as my old
Philosophy 101 prof used to say).


Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 1:32 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?
> 
> 
> Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive 
> names that
> mean something when they don't cause lawsuits... 
> 
> :-)
> 
> You asked...  What's in a name? 
> 
> -Andy
> 
> 
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 13:52, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
> > >>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project 
> would be a 
> > >>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a 
> platform that 
> > >>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). 
> Though of course it 
> > >>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> > >
> > > 
> > > +1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> > > successful
> > 
> > I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name 
> suggestions? How 
> > about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
> > 
> > When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to 
> > SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that 
> this community 
> > will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this 
> > project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
> > 
> > -- 
> > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> > - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> > http://objectstyle.org
> > email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   

> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com
http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Bill Barnhill]

How about a (semi?)-catchy name and a meaningful name--
Open Distribution for the Enterprise -- ODE

Just my two cents,
Bill Barnhill

- Original Message -
From: "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Jakarta General List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2002 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: The Complete Server Platform?


> Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive names that
> mean something when they don't cause lawsuits...
>
> :-)
>
> You asked...  What's in a name?
>
> -Andy
>
>
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 13:52, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> > Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
> > >>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a
> > >>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that
> > >>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course
it
> > >>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> > >
> > >
> > > +1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> > > successful
> >
> > I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How
> > about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
> >
> > When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to
> > SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community
> > will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this
> > project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
> >
> > --
> > ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> > - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> > http://objectstyle.org
> > email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> > For additional commands, e-mail:

> >
> --
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com
> http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
> format to java
> http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> - fix java generics!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Open Enterprise Distribution ...  I'm bigger into descriptive names that
mean something when they don't cause lawsuits... 

:-)

You asked...  What's in a name? 

-Andy


On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 13:52, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
> >>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
> >>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
> >>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
> >>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> >
> > 
> > +1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> > successful
> 
> I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How 
> about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.
> 
> When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to 
> SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community 
> will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this 
> project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.
> 
> -- 
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> 
> 
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote
>>This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
>>good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
>>uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
>>will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
>
> 
> +1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
> successful

I am ready to setup a project on SourceForge. Any name suggestions? How 
about "Fusion"? Kind of on topic, though sounds like ColdFusion.

When the name is decided upon we can transfer this discussion to 
SourceForge, though I of course have a lot of hope that this community 
will be interested enough to provide input. Especially since this 
project is not so much about coding, but rather architecture.

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email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Bug in jakarta web server? (apache 2.0.32)

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 09:55, Ted Grzesik wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> I believe the apache 2.0.32 server (i.e. the server jakarta site is 
> using) has a bug.  I thought I would report it here because of the close 
> affiliation to the apache organization.  Also, this is affecting the 
> ability of the Jakarta site to perform it's "duties".
> 
> Bug:  Downloading files causes lockup of client on last packet.  For 
> example, I have tried to download jetspeed-src.zip from the nightly 
> build (2002-02-24).  When the file is 99% complete the browser client 
> locks up.  I have reproduced this with NS 6.2 and IE5.5 on Win2KSP2.  In 
> the case of NS, the browser totally hangs.  In the case of IE, the 
> download hangs for quite some time and then eventually completes.
> 
> Please let me know if I can be of further help in tracking this down and 
> if I should report this to the Apache HTTP Server team.
> 

Ummm...yeah.  

> Regards,
> Ted Grzesik
> 
> -- 
> Ted Grzesik
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://roostme.com
> "Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps."
>  -- Emo Phillips
> 
> 
> 
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Bug in jakarta web server? (apache 2.0.32)

[Ted Grzesik]

Folks,

I believe the apache 2.0.32 server (i.e. the server jakarta site is 
using) has a bug.  I thought I would report it here because of the close 
affiliation to the apache organization.  Also, this is affecting the 
ability of the Jakarta site to perform it's "duties".

Bug:  Downloading files causes lockup of client on last packet.  For 
example, I have tried to download jetspeed-src.zip from the nightly 
build (2002-02-24).  When the file is 99% complete the browser client 
locks up.  I have reproduced this with NS 6.2 and IE5.5 on Win2KSP2.  In 
the case of NS, the browser totally hangs.  In the case of IE, the 
download hangs for quite some time and then eventually completes.

Please let me know if I can be of further help in tracking this down and 
if I should report this to the Apache HTTP Server team.

Regards,
Ted Grzesik

-- 
Ted Grzesik
[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://roostme.com
"Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps."
 -- Emo Phillips



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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 12:42, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> 
> Ted Husted wrote:
> >
> > My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
> > 
> 
> This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
> good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
> uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
> will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.
> 

+1  -- I think eventually it could be brought to Jakarta if it was
successful.

> 
> Here is a draft of proposed project description:
> ---
> 
> Project XYZ (replace with a catchy name :-)) is dedicated to creation of 
> development and deployment platform for Java web applications. It is 
> based on other open technologies. Each one of such technologies 
> specializes in a certain area of web application building, such as XML, 
> HTML creation, database access, logging, Java development process 
> support, etc. Project XYZ is a fusion of these technologies into a Java 
> server solution that covers all parts of the spectrum. Also it 
> introduces extensions (... need to be defined ...).
> 
> Other project goals are:
> 
> - to create a lower entry barrier for web application developers to use 
> state of the art technology by providing a single full solution "that works"
> - to realize our vision of the best design and development practices
> - 
> 

+1

> 
> Project goals are NOT:
> 
> - to set the only acceptable way of doing things in Java
> - to reduce the importance of technologies that are not in the core of 
> XYZ project
> 
> ---
> 
> 
> Here is a comparison to show why such a project is needed and why this 
> is a good thing. Take Linux example. How many people in the world could 
> take kernel code and GNU compiler and make a system that even boots? 
> With the emergence of companies like RedHat, people received this 
> missing piece - packaging. It was at least as important as kernel code 
> itself. And RedHat is not the only way to package Linux, so nobody 
> really thinks that RedHat "stole Linux".
> 

-1 - You'll have some issues basing a project on GNU stuff.  Legal
issues.  You have to make sure whatever it is -- is LGPL not
GPL...otherwise you'll need good lawyers to prove the GPL virus clause
invalid.

> I think here we have a similar situation - full platform solution will 
> make life easier for many people, while no harm will be done to the 
> foundation projects and their alternatives.

+1

-Andy

> -- 
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> 
> 
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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
> 

This is exactly why I think setting up a separate project would be a 
good idea. A project that would realize the concept of a platform that 
uses open tools (as opposed to jakarta-only tools). Though of course it 
will most likely be 70-80% Jakarta based.


Here is a draft of proposed project description:
---

Project XYZ (replace with a catchy name :-)) is dedicated to creation of 
development and deployment platform for Java web applications. It is 
based on other open technologies. Each one of such technologies 
specializes in a certain area of web application building, such as XML, 
HTML creation, database access, logging, Java development process 
support, etc. Project XYZ is a fusion of these technologies into a Java 
server solution that covers all parts of the spectrum. Also it 
introduces extensions (... need to be defined ...).

Other project goals are:

- to create a lower entry barrier for web application developers to use 
state of the art technology by providing a single full solution "that works"
- to realize our vision of the best design and development practices
- 


Project goals are NOT:

- to set the only acceptable way of doing things in Java
- to reduce the importance of technologies that are not in the core of 
XYZ project

---


Here is a comparison to show why such a project is needed and why this 
is a good thing. Take Linux example. How many people in the world could 
take kernel code and GNU compiler and make a system that even boots? 
With the emergence of companies like RedHat, people received this 
missing piece - packaging. It was at least as important as kernel code 
itself. And RedHat is not the only way to package Linux, so nobody 
really thinks that RedHat "stole Linux".

I think here we have a similar situation - full platform solution will 
make life easier for many people, while no harm will be done to the 
foundation projects and their alternatives.
-- 
~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[cmanolache]

On 23 Feb 2002, Pete Chown wrote:

> The other thing I would like to push is gcj.  It doesn't seem to be very
> well known.  For people who haven't come across it, it is part of gcc
> and it is an ahead-of-time compiler for Java.  It also includes a
> bytecode interpreter so it can deal with dynamically generated code, and
> a free implementation of the Java class libraries.

And many jakarta projects compile and work fine ( and fast ) using
gcj. I've got similar results with IBM's JDK1.3 for linux, which
is one of the fastest ( when testing tomcat ), except the startup
time which is much better. 

In addition there is an ant task to compile java to native using gcj
( it's part of j-t-c build process, the jkant package ).

Costin





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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 10:30, Ted Husted wrote:
> Leo Simons wrote:
> > 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> > I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> > integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> > would mean that such will happen sooner.
> 
> My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.
> 

+1 That looks like the kind of statement that cannot be reached by
consensus.  I'm sure there are two sides to that idea..  

> Why would "we" like to see Avalon integrate with Tomcat? Why not Jetty
> or Resin? 
> 

*shrugs* if the Avalon folks want to see it then I guess they'd
contribute to Tomcat..  

> If our committers are choosing to use Tomcat because it meets their
> real-life needs, then why would "we" have to tell them that. Won't they
> just do it because they need it?
> 

IMHO, there should be a *slant* towards inter-Apache-community
cross-breeding.  Not Nazi enforcement...

> IMHO, committers should decide what is best for their product first. If
> we all do that, and we all create best-of-breed products, then
> interoperability will be a natural occurance. 
> 

+1

> If it is not a natural occurance, then we are mixing politics with
> technology ... We would simply be replacing the Dark Lords with a Dark
> Lady.
> 

*shrugs* Ladies are prettier 

> AFAIK, we don't tell Jakarta committers to use Ant. They choose Ant
> because it is a great tool. The same should go for every Jakarta or ASF
> product.
> 

+1 - Ant RULEZ!  Make SUCKS!

> Meanwhile, I do think documenting how J2SE (Standard Edition)
> technologies can provide an end-to-end solution is a great idea. For
> example, jGuru is running on Resin, Lucene, James, and JSPs. Scales
> great, and not an EJB to be found. 
> 

+1

> So, should we (meaning I) write that up as a case study and post it on
> the site? Or, pass because they are not using Tomcat?
> 

I think they should be using SOME jakarta technologies otherwise it
kinda doesn't look like the right site, but *shrugs*.

> AFAIK, Apache is part of the JS2E group, rather than the J2EE group, so
> it seems to me that promoting J2SE solutions is a natural thing for us
> to do, regardless of who provides the underlying product.
> 

IMHO: g/Apache/s//Jakarta/g

(Httpd has little to do with J2-anything)

Right, but I think providing "server-side" alternatives to J2EE is a
good thing.  Whether Jakarta should do it *shrug*...I think its a good
idea...  But its already happening -- Thanks Paul Hammant..  That seems
like the best way to show the "Jakarta Position" to the JSPA..  There is
nothing like doing something better to really make the point sink.  Will
it be better *shrugs* hope so..  It will certainly be more open.  I
applaud Paul et al's efforts and I'll come around as soon as my plate
clears some (I mean it).

Oh the amazing power of those who do.

-Andy

> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
> -- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
> -- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
> -- Web: http://husted.com/struts
> 
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Ted Husted]

Leo Simons wrote:
> 2) a statement of intent in important places on the website.
> I'm guessing that putting "we would like to see tomcat
> integrate with avalon" on the projects' respective websites
> would mean that such will happen sooner.

My concern would be that this promotes a "We are Borg" attitude.

Why would "we" like to see Avalon integrate with Tomcat? Why not Jetty
or Resin? 

If our committers are choosing to use Tomcat because it meets their
real-life needs, then why would "we" have to tell them that. Won't they
just do it because they need it?

IMHO, committers should decide what is best for their product first. If
we all do that, and we all create best-of-breed products, then
interoperability will be a natural occurance. 

If it is not a natural occurance, then we are mixing politics with
technology ... We would simply be replacing the Dark Lords with a Dark
Lady.

AFAIK, we don't tell Jakarta committers to use Ant. They choose Ant
because it is a great tool. The same should go for every Jakarta or ASF
product.

Meanwhile, I do think documenting how J2SE (Standard Edition)
technologies can provide an end-to-end solution is a great idea. For
example, jGuru is running on Resin, Lucene, James, and JSPs. Scales
great, and not an EJB to be found. 

So, should we (meaning I) write that up as a case study and post it on
the site? Or, pass because they are not using Tomcat?

AFAIK, Apache is part of the JS2E group, rather than the J2EE group, so
it seems to me that promoting J2SE solutions is a natural thing for us
to do, regardless of who provides the underlying product.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY US
-- Developing Java Web Applications with Struts
-- Tel: +1 585 737-3463
-- Web: http://husted.com/struts

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RE: Java Persistence Layer [was EJB, etc]

[Gerhard Froehlich]

>-Original Message-
>From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2002 11:48 PM
>To: Jakarta General List
>Subject: Java Persistence Layer [was EJB, etc]
>
>
>See
>
>http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
>
>If you are serious, the first thing you really need to do is get the
>source posted someplace. This could just be a page on a free host, with
>the Apache License recast as the Michael Lee license. Or, SourceForge if
>you think you might want to play with it bit first. 
>
>But, the ASF does not simply take code donations. We host projects and
>products with developers that want to actively promote the product as
>open source, under the Apache License, and manage the codebase in a
>meritocratic way. So, its not so much about the tool itself, but about
>them that want to use and improve the tool.
>
>You might also want to take a look at 
>
>http://netmeme.org/simper/

See jakarata-commons-sandbox/simplestore
...something similar...



Regards
  ~Gerhard
 
-
Me, Ambivalent? Well, yes and no.
-


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