Re: Short Apache licence for source files
At 20:27 07.12.2002 +0100, you wrote: Pier Fumagalli wrote: You're free to file your complaint to the appropriate department dealing with those kinds of issues: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Naaah. There's a difference between making a remark here when the opportunity is there, and starting another 'feeding the trolls' thread over at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I now see that my remark has been duly noted, and I can only hope that it somehow penetrates the firewall between us and The Members. I think the tradition of meritocracy is deeply rooted in our collective consciousness; I mean that of Apache. If you knock on the door of [EMAIL PROTECTED], I am sure you will be allowed in. Things do not necessarily become easier as a member, one still has to work on listening, understanding and persuasion, exactly the same way a a committed committer would. Send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see how you are received. Note the CC: to licensing@. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ -- Ceki -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: I think the tradition of meritocracy is deeply rooted in our collective consciousness; I mean that of Apache. If you knock on the door of [EMAIL PROTECTED], I am sure you will be allowed in. Things do not necessarily become easier as a member, one still has to work on listening, understanding and persuasion, exactly the same way a a committed committer would. - thanks for the pointer, I already tried subscribing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] which obviously was the wrong address - subscribing/posting: from what I see, it looks like my subscription is waiting to be moderated - excellent - things being 'easier' when being a member: of course not, and I hope that wasn't the impression that I gave Send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and see how you are received. Note the CC: to licensing@. Thanks for the invitation - I'll post my questions to the licensing list. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
At 12:23 09.12.2002 +0100, Steven Noels wrote: Ceki Gülcü wrote: - things being 'easier' when being a member: of course not, and I hope that wasn't the impression that I gave The message I was trying to get across was that the firewall a.k.a. barrier between members and committers exists mostly in people's minds. Membership is not much more than a recognition of one's work plus a stamp of approval for being usually reasonable. Think of membership as even more positive karma in slashdot. From the Foundations perspective membership also entails responsibilities and obligations but that's a different topic. /Steven -- Ceki -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: The message I was trying to get across was that the firewall a.k.a. barrier between members and committers exists mostly in people's minds. Membership is not much more than a recognition of one's work plus a stamp of approval for being usually reasonable. Think of membership as even more positive karma in slashdot. From the Foundations perspective membership also entails responsibilities and obligations but that's a different topic. In people's mind is where thoughts come to fruition and actions are decided. It's just that I don't like it when a discussion gets cut off by someone using that imaginary firewall as a reason - even adding a redirect to some other place where it is deemed more appropriate for the discussion to be held. Oh well ;) /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
- things being 'easier' when being a member: of course not, and I hope that wasn't the impression that I gave The message I was trying to get across was that the firewall a.k.a. barrier between members and committers exists mostly in people's minds. Membership is not much more than a recognition of one's work plus a stamp of approval for being usually reasonable. Think of membership as even more positive karma in slashdot. From the Foundations perspective membership also entails responsibilities and obligations but that's a different topic. It is a real barrier in that things seem less opaque for members. You can tell people that nothing important happens on the members only lists, but as long as there _are_ members only lists and such, the firewall will always be percieved. -- jt, observing not complaining. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
At 07:40 09.12.2002 -0500, James Taylor wrote: - things being 'easier' when being a member: of course not, and I hope that wasn't the impression that I gave The message I was trying to get across was that the firewall a.k.a. barrier between members and committers exists mostly in people's minds. Membership is not much more than a recognition of one's work plus a stamp of approval for being usually reasonable. Think of membership as even more positive karma in slashdot. From the Foundations perspective membership also entails responsibilities and obligations but that's a different topic. It is a real barrier in that things seem less opaque for members. You can tell people that nothing important happens on the members only lists, but as long as there _are_ members only lists and such, the firewall will always be percieved. Many things remain opaque for members because new members do not suddenly become omniscient. The phenomena of community legends exists within Apache as within any community with some history. What sets Apache apart from other communities is its built in open and tolerant nature. Openness is a hard term to define. IMO, the ability to speak up and argue on almost any matter without fear of retribution makes Apache open. You will not find a single member claiming that important business is conducted on the members list. The argument of members only mailing lists preventing committers from gaining access to important information does not hold water unless one assumes that all ASF members are irredeemable liars united in a conspiracy against the poor committers. Some say that perception is everything. If perception is everything, then reason and truth do not matter. As far as I am concerned, reason and truth are everything with perception a distant contender. After all, we all perceive the earth to be flat which does not make the earth any less spherical. What is great about Apache is that a good argument and some perseverance will get you a long way. That is a fact. Status matters but less than one would imagine. My disappointment with Apache was that occasionally you get a very persistent person who convincingly promotes bad ideas. Although some may see that and not agree, they eventually throw in the towel. It then takes the community months or even years to realize that the idea was bad. Of course, the problem does stem from the open nature of the ASF but rather from the imperfections of *any* conceivable system. The bottom line is that we should not mistake the failings of the system with our own PGL syndrome (paranoia, greed and laziness). -- jt, observing not complaining. -- Ceki, expounding not accusing. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Short Apache licence for source files
Ceki Gülcü wrote: snip/ -- Ceki, expounding not accusing. Very nicely put. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog at http://radio.weblogs.com/0103539/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
