Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.

|  Don't feed  |
|  the trolls  |

   |
   |
   |
--\|/


--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Yep. Do that.  Every committer should want to be part of the PMC.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Serge Huber
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote:
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term 
effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to 
have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.

Just my 2ct...

Regards,
  Serge Huber.
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus





 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.

 Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
 effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to

 have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.

It's certainly not deliberate. Least I hope not.
I guess Andy was trying to shame people into using this list. Go Andy .
d.



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Re: Choosing against Jakarta

2003-12-18 Thread Ted Husted
No worries, mate. The Apache License is the ultimate hedge. No matter 
what happens, you can always set up the source someplace else. The most 
you could possibly lose would be the product name, and, realistically, 
if there wasn't a community behind the product, Apache wouldn't want it 
anyway :)

As an Apache Committer, you can setup a product in the Jakarta Commons 
sandbox whenever you want. (Just like SourceForge.) If you can interest 
other people in the product, and build a community to support it, the 
product can be promoted to the Commons Proper -- or even to the 
top-level of Jakarta or the ASF, depending on the product's extent.

The thing to keep in mind is that you are not donating code to Jakarta. 
You are donating it to the Apache Software Foundation. The ASF is here 
to stay, as are all of its products, no matter where they are hosted. As 
long as a product has a vital, meritocratic community, it's sure to have 
a home at the ASF.

Of course, SourceForge is also a fine place to host a project. I often 
choose SourceForge when the people I'm working with are not ASF 
Committers. This in itself is a good reason to choose SourceForge: you 
can't add ASF Committers at will. ASF Committers must have demonstrated 
a sustained interest in the project and an understanding of the Apache 
Way. Usually this is a good thing, but sometimes it is not.

As far as anything else goes: This too shall pass, but open source and 
the Apache License endure.

-Ted.

Stephen Colebourne wrote:
As some of you may know, I look after my own date and time code in Java at
www.joda.org. I had been hoping to bring this code to Apache, as I believe
it to be a very good fit with developments within Jakarta/Jakarta-commons.
Today I decided not to pursue this option for the time being, until the
situation with Jakarta's future is resolved. Instead I applied for a new
sourceforge project to house it more cleanly.
Why post this here? Because I believe that others may also be questioning
the value of Jakarta. I confess that I have no idea what, or if, Jakarta
will look like in 6 months time. Certainly it made no sense to me to attempt
to get a new project adopted by Jakarta at the moment.
Stephen

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andy Armstrong
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


 On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

  Henri Yandell wrote:
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
  existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
  Who's the best person to nudge then? :)

 Anyone.  Interested?

Whoever knows you as an active committer Andy and is on the PMC.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andy Armstrong
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?
Yes, very much thanks.

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
public?
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST)
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 subjects have been:
 
 how the PMC should work
 organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so
 far]
 how to ensure oversight of jakarta
 general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
  social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
  [it shouldn't seems the end result here]
 how to get more CLA's signed by committers
 log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
 whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a
 bit
 
 Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
 this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
 thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
 at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
 did anyway.
 
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 Hen
 
 On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.
 --
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?
 
 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
 everything espoused in the above email.
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
the
 public?

For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other
commercial/open hybrids.
OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed
by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department.
From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of
consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be
better off here.

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain 
private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in 
the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the 
Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in 
such metters.

-Harish

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Danny Angus wrote:

  Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
  name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
 the
  public?

 For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
 But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
 source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
 So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other
 commercial/open hybrids.
 OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed
 by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department.
 From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of
 consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be
 better off here.

Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more
aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this
open forum.

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the
origanization. I can understand certain
 private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else,
I think, should be out in
 the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some
talk going on about the
 Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate
the knowledge sharing in
 such metters.

Harish,
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.

Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
(including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have
been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly
just at the My Idea stage.

I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it
is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us
all.

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more 
than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open 
to the
public?
This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we 
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion 
of the things that are concerning us.

The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to 
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.
Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is 
pretty broad.

Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
(including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have
been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly
just at the My Idea stage.
I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it
is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us
all.
Absolutely, this kind of stuff, I think, belongs here.

-Harish



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Re: PMC mailing list (Re: Just in case you're curious)

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote:

Anyone.  Interested?
I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a 
Struts committer.  My apache ID is germuska.
Joe,

I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list.

Congrats on becoming a committer.   I hope that your CLA has been 
signed and sent to the ASF. :)

What we are trying to do is expand the Jakarta PMC to give as much 
inclusion and oversight as possible for all jakarta projects.  To that 
end, we are looking for committers that are interested in the oversight 
of the projects, not just working on the projects.  Fundamentally, this 
means that the committers are ensuring that the code and other 
contributions that is being added to the project's CVS is properly 
contributed (via a committer w/ a CLA or on a public list where it's 
clear it's a freely given contribution) and properly licensed.

This is a subject we'll be discussing more on the general@ list, and I 
urge you to pay attention, participate and decide if this is something 
you wish to volunteer for.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:25 -0500 (EST)
Henri Yandell wrote:

 Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more
 aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this
 open forum.

About the issue of openness and closeness:

board@ is *public* for all the ASF members. (Any ASF
members can be a *read only member* to the board@ list)
board@ is open list? close list?

WS (WebServices) project discuss most of the important
issues at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the same time.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is open list? close list?

--

I think that jakarta should choose an appropriate method
which suffices for most of the jakarta committers' needs.

For example:
Create topics for discussion -- PMC list
Vote -- general@ (or another appropriate list : important issues)
PMC list (trivial issues)
Report to all the jakarta committers -- general@

--

Also, please read this (Roy T. Fielding said @ incubator list
at Fri, 26 Sep 2003)  all the jakarta committers and PMC members

--

 A release requires 3 +1 and a majority of those voting, wherein
 the only people allowed to vote are the PMC responsible for that
 code.  In other words, the usual rules apply -- it is simply harder
 to get the votes.

--

 According to the bylaws, the only people authorized to make 
 decisions
 on behalf of the ASF (including the decision to release code to the 
 general
 public) are officers or the PMC responsible for the project.  All other
 votes are to be ignored or considered advisory only, and no I don't care
 how long some of our umbrella projects have been ignoring that fact.

It seems that most of the committers in jakarta do not know
this fact. Before the discussion of *openness/closeness*, 
I think we should have common understanding on this.

Regards,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 

Isn't everything you disagree with?

 I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
 are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
 of the things that are concerning us.


Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)


Glad you caught that.

-Andy
 
 geir
 
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on 
something.  That's commonly known as FUD.


I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that 
we
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
of the things that are concerning us.

Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just 
that I disagree.  See the difference?


The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how 
to
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)

Glad you caught that.
The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we 
are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as 
much of the community as possible into that governance process to make 
things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is 
this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for 
the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially 
since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.

Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing 
Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.

geir

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Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

  First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of
the
  PMC, which I'd be happy to do.

 Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one.
 The description on the website is pretty broad.

Harish, as I see it, part of the problem comes from a misunderstanding about
the nature of the PMC.  The term management has been misunderstood in the
context of an ASF Project.

The intended purpose for the PMC is that the PMC members are the core group
making all decisions related to an ASF Project.  That includes voting on
code changes, voting on new Committers, voting on new PMC members.  Not all
Committers may be on the PMC, but the majority should be -- and those who
aren't do not have binding votes (see explanation below).  I recently did a
quick survey of some projects:

  Project   # PMC# Committers %
  HTTP Server:43 59 73%
  APR 29 43 67%
  Cocoon  31 67 46%
  Jakarta 42+   352 12%

Not all Committers are still active, so the ratio of PMC to active
Committers is higher, but the difference is still pretty clear.  The Jakarta
PMC, using the current structure, is missing 100s of members.

Now here is where the problem comes in.  Although every PMC is free to
establish its normal rules, the legal system also plays a part.  The
structure of the ASF exists to protect us.  In order to be protected,
decision makers must be PMC members.  Decisions include code changes.

The discussions taking place on [EMAIL PROTECTED] regarding how to fix
the situation take different directions, but I think that everyone agrees
that the vast majority of Jakarta Committers must be on a responsible PMC.
The question, as I see it, is really about *how* we're going to organize it,
not *if*.

--- Noel


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread hlship
The more I see of this discussion, the more convinced I am that the sub-projects of 
Jakarta should be run like mini-TLPs. We want to leverage the marketing power of the 
Jakarta brand, the experience of the other Jakarta developers, and some infrastructure 
support (web page, CVS, mailing lists, wiki).

However, this idea that the PMC should manage individual projects as diverse as 
Tapestry, Lucene, ORO and BCEL is, to me, a losing proposition. I can't even envision 
what it means to manage these projects.  To me, management is primarily about 
allocating scarce resources. For all these projects, the scarce resource is developer 
time and effort, and that is administered by each developer individually.

From my point of view, the Jakarta PMC should be encouraging the individual projects 
to operate in a professional fashion, to provide advice when asked, to keep tabs on 
projects sufficiently to verify that they are operating as a healthy meritocracy ... 
and that's about it.

I think Jakarta will choose its own direction, as new projects come into existence and 
old ones either move on, or fade out (ECS, anybody?).

Obviously, something is afoot ... otherwise, why are healthy projects moving out of 
Jakarta, up to the top level (Ant, Maven and now logging)? Is that the destiny of 
Jakarta, to be a second-level incubator for projects on the way to TLP status?  If so 
... embrace that.

--
Howard M. Lewis Ship
Creator, Tapestry:Java Web Components
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry/

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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is 
simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC 
member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not sure the 
PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does 
not exist between a committer and Apache?

I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help grow Jakarta but I want to 
be clear on the responsibilities I will be taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.

Thanks,
Harish
Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:


First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of
the

PMC, which I'd be happy to do.


Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one.
The description on the website is pretty broad.


Harish, as I see it, part of the problem comes from a misunderstanding about
the nature of the PMC.  The term management has been misunderstood in the
context of an ASF Project.
The intended purpose for the PMC is that the PMC members are the core group
making all decisions related to an ASF Project.  That includes voting on
code changes, voting on new Committers, voting on new PMC members.  Not all
Committers may be on the PMC, but the majority should be -- and those who
aren't do not have binding votes (see explanation below).  I recently did a
quick survey of some projects:
  Project   # PMC# Committers %
  HTTP Server:43 59 73%
  APR 29 43 67%
  Cocoon  31 67 46%
  Jakarta 42+   352 12%
Not all Committers are still active, so the ratio of PMC to active
Committers is higher, but the difference is still pretty clear.  The Jakarta
PMC, using the current structure, is missing 100s of members.
Now here is where the problem comes in.  Although every PMC is free to
establish its normal rules, the legal system also plays a part.  The
structure of the ASF exists to protect us.  In order to be protected,
decision makers must be PMC members.  Decisions include code changes.
The discussions taking place on [EMAIL PROTECTED] regarding how to fix
the situation take different directions, but I think that everyone agrees
that the vast majority of Jakarta Committers must be on a responsible PMC.
The question, as I see it, is really about *how* we're going to organize it,
not *if*.
	--- Noel

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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The more I see of this discussion, the more convinced I am that the
 sub-projects of Jakarta should be run like mini-TLPs. We want to
 leverage the marketing power of the Jakarta brand, the experience of the
 other Jakarta developers, and some infrastructure support (web page,
 CVS, mailing lists, wiki).

I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7
members. Now that Jakarta is breaking up, I believe it should continue the
process so that Jakarta can discover a new role.

Either it would roll back to the old style as Tomcat + friends, or would
become the Java-Foundry for Apache [a la Sourceforge], or would become
Jakarta Commons, or both of the latter two. Dunno what other visions there
might be out there for Jakarta-2004.

 However, this idea that the PMC should manage individual projects as
 diverse as Tapestry, Lucene, ORO and BCEL is, to me, a losing
 proposition. I can't even envision what it means to manage these
 projects.  To me, management is primarily about allocating scarce
 resources. For all these projects, the scarce resource is developer time
 and effort, and that is administered by each developer individually.

I think it's less about allocating, as being aware of all issues.
Alexandria has been dormant/dead for ages, and someone should have been
trying to archive it for ages.

The Jakarta Commons charter is no longer true, especially with Incubator
now in existence and someone ought to be worried about that.

The Jakarta website is quite a mess and the mirrors are only now being
happily handled [though a lot of places aren't using the # named anchors,
which seems to irritate users]. Someone should be responsible to the board
for that.

 From my point of view, the Jakarta PMC should be encouraging the
 individual projects to operate in a professional fashion, to provide
 advice when asked, to keep tabs on projects sufficiently to verify that
 they are operating as a healthy meritocracy ... and that's about it.

 I think Jakarta will choose its own direction, as new projects come into
 existence and old ones either move on, or fade out (ECS, anybody?).

God no. I still happily use ECS. Very nice separation of view when I've
written a single servlet prototype to do some kind of feature.

Jakarta does need to move in its own direction though, and I think the
first step in this is for the community to decide what 'Jakarta' means
now/in the future.

 Obviously, something is afoot ... otherwise, why are healthy projects
 moving out of Jakarta, up to the top level (Ant, Maven and now logging)?
 Is that the destiny of Jakarta, to be a second-level incubator for
 projects on the way to TLP status?  If so ... embrace that.

As far as I know, there is much ASF community resistance to Jakarta
continuing to be an Incubator. We're no longer anywhere near server-side
Java at ASF. Basically we are now:  What's left of the old server-side
Java project at ASF, but a bit confused about it all.

Hen


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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Howard Lewis Ship wrote:

 The more I see of this discussion, the more convinced I am that
 the sub-projects of Jakarta should be run like mini-TLPs.
 We want to leverage the marketing power of the Jakarta brand,
 the experience of the other Jakarta developers, and some
 infrastructure support (web page, CVS, mailing lists, wiki).

I agree.  That has been my preferred approach to date.  I concur with many
of the reasons you gave for not having a 300 person PMC overseeing dozens of
otherwise unrelated projects.

 To me, management is primarily about allocating scarce resources.

As I said, this is not the kind of management meant for a PMC.

--- Noel


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

 If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
 the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
 regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
 and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
 skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
 binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
 a committer and Apache?

Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.

An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member
is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that
TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however.

[IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given]

 I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help
 grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be
 taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.

By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
gone well so far but will hopefully get there.


Hen


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy


Henri Yandell wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:


If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
a committer and Apache?


Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.
I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a committer should also be bound the 
way a member is? That way the responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very 
small team of members for governance.

An Apache Member is a part of the Apache organisation, while a PMC member
is recognised by the Apache organisation as being responsible for that
TLP. There's no need for them to be an Apache Member however.
[IANAL etc, this is how I see it from descriptions people have given]


I am certainly willing (and want) to share some responsibilities to help
grow Jakarta but I want to be clear on the responsibilities I will be
taking on as a member and if I will be eligible.


By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
gone well so far but will hopefully get there.
I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities.



Hen

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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Henri Yandell wrote:

 I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said
 to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7
 members.

There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...

All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.

--- Noel


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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
 I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.

grin You catch on quickly.  :-)  The difference is that a PMC member, as
a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project.  By allowing
someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it.  The Committer contributes, but does
not have a say.  So there is a natural progression from:

  Contributor (patches) - Committer (authorized access) - PMC member

 If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am
 not sure the PMC can attain vast majority.

It doesn't.  300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do,
without the benefit of being on a PMC.

 Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache
 that does not exist between a committer and Apache?

Please see:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.orgmsgNo=2711.

--- Noel


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:



 Henri Yandell wrote:

 
  On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
 
 
 If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
 the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
 regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
 and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing
 skills, I am not sure the PMC can attain vast majority. Is there a legal
 binding between a member and Jakarta/Apache that does not exist between
 a committer and Apache?
 
 
  Yep. There is very little legal binding between a committer and Apache,
  apart from the legal fact that the committer is donating code to Apache.

 I am sorry if I am being naive, but can it not be enforced that a
 committer should also be bound the way a member is? That way the
 responsibilities are borne by every committer and we could have a very
 small team of members for governance.

Depends what you mean by member here. ASF Member-ness is special and
something legal to do with the organisation. PMC member-ness, is meant to
apply to all active committers apparantly. Other Apache TLPs function in
this way [some, not all], and apparantly this is the way the PMC is
expected to behave. Basically any somewhat active, trusted committer
should be on the PMC.

  By being an active committer, you are eligible. As for what
  responsibilities are, attempts to define the role of a PMC member have not
  gone well so far but will hopefully get there.

 I am sorry, I meant to say if I would qualify for the responsibilities.

Your call. As long as you're active, you pass muster to be on the PMC.
Whether you want to be is up to you and how happy you are joining
something that is not too sure about responsibilities etc.

I've seen nothing that says you can't quit at any time though, so I think
there's very little risk involved in jumping in.

Hen


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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

 Henri Yandell wrote:

  I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said
  to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7
  members.

 There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
 absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

   Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
   Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
   Struts PMC: struts and related code
   Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
   Tapestry PMC: ...
   ...

 All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

 No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's
 legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
 already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution to the
 Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.

Gotya. Had been wondering why you kept pushing the multi-PMC approach.

I'm +0 to this and would still be worried about what 'Jakarta' meant now.
Hopefully if this happened, ant, maven, avalon, cocoon, etc would be able
to join Jakarta again. Same for xerces-J, xalan-J etc.

So these would basically be TLPs without the domain name?

Hen


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Mark R. Diggory


Henri Yandell wrote:

Obviously, something is afoot ... otherwise, why are healthy projects
moving out of Jakarta, up to the top level (Ant, Maven and now logging)?
Is that the destiny of Jakarta, to be a second-level incubator for
projects on the way to TLP status?  If so ... embrace that.


As far as I know, there is much ASF community resistance to Jakarta
continuing to be an Incubator. We're no longer anywhere near server-side
Java at ASF. Basically we are now:  What's left of the old server-side
Java project at ASF, but a bit confused about it all.
Hen

Your right, the real question is  What is Jakarta?

Is it a java component incubator or is it a umbrella for server side 
java?

The idea of server side java is a weak one in my book. There is no 
such thing as server side java and client side java, its all the 
same JVM! There are a few components that act as servers (tomcat, james, 
etc). There are components that are developed with the intention of 
running on those services (Struts, JSTL, Velocity ...) And there are 
java components that are totally agnostic to this artificial boundary of 
client/server side java (most of jakarta commons). There are 
components that were designed to be intentional gui clients (JMeter 
etc). But what they all have in common is java.

Jakarta is a java component incubator!

I suspect the components that have left Jakarta have done so because 
they've felt limited by its past mandate as server side java or 
things that run on tomcat...

Either way, language based delineations in top level apache project 
boundaries are logical given that its often the case that a subproject 
is usually developed with one language in mind (java, perl, c, php, 
xml). Yes there are overlaps and exceptions to this case (Xerces and 
Xalan for instance), but they are usually consolidated under an 
appropriate umbrella of commonality (in this case XML). I'm not 
convinced that a language agnostic top level incubator is a bad or 
good thing, I just think it may not be a very popular thing because of 
these umbrellas of commonality that arise based on language and 
implementation. In context to the parent projects umbrella is where the 
most appropriate creativity and invention arise, leading to the most 
successful subprojects.

-Mark

--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Brian McCallister
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:03, Henri Yandell wrote:
 Either it would roll back to the old style as Tomcat + friends, or would
 become the Java-Foundry for Apache [a la Sourceforge], or would become
 Jakarta Commons, or both of the latter two. Dunno what other visions there
 might be out there for Jakarta-2004.

FWIW -- Jakarta has a lot of mindshare on web-application stuff and that
is not to be thrown away. I am *not* on the PMC for Jakarta (and
shouldn't be) so have no business interjecting thoughts on what to do,
but... (I should listen to myself more, oh well, too late now) if a
group home for webapp tools exists in Apache, it should be Jakarta.
Jakarta should not (as I recently replied to you in DB) be the default
home for everything without some other logical home.

Maybe we need sandbox.apache.org for logical groupings to coagulate in,
but that is a decision for people at a higher pay grade than myself ;-)

Just my off-the-cuff opinions =)

-Brian



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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:24 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:

I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was 
said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC 
of 7
members.
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There 
is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the 
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution 
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
This is nothing I would encourage.  There's really no question that 
it's legal.  But it does then make Jakarta a website, rather than a 
community, IMO.  I'd rather see the community.

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:35 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:



On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:

I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it 
was said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta 
PMC of 7
members.
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There 
is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the 
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution 
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
Gotya. Had been wondering why you kept pushing the multi-PMC approach.
Clue me in because I don't get it.

I'm +0 to this and would still be worried about what 'Jakarta' meant 
now.
Hopefully if this happened, ant, maven, avalon, cocoon, etc would be 
able
to join Jakarta again. Same for xerces-J, xalan-J etc.
I'm -1 to this, but it's not a -1-able thing.  Projects are free to 
apply for top level status if they want.

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Ah now it all makes sense :)

May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no reason to lobby for more 
members, really.

-Harish

Noel J. Bergman wrote:

I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.


grin You catch on quickly.  :-)  The difference is that a PMC member, as
a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project.  By allowing
someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
codebase, but the PMC is overseeing it.  The Committer contributes, but does
not have a say.  So there is a natural progression from:
  Contributor (patches) - Committer (authorized access) - PMC member


If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am
not sure the PMC can attain vast majority.


It doesn't.  300+ Committers are already doing most of what they need to do,
without the benefit of being on a PMC.

Is there a legal binding between a [PMC] member and Jakarta/Apache
that does not exist between a committer and Apache?


Please see:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.orgmsgNo=2711.
	--- Noel

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Volunteering for PMC membership

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Hi,

I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in 
whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership.

Regards,
Harish


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy


Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

Ah now it all makes sense :)

May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be 
no  reason to lobby for more members, really.


We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who understand  
the responsibility and are willing to take it.  Automatic inclusion  
doesn't do that.
But it seems that the exact responsibilities is not really laid out and is the primary reason for 
confusion?



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Re: Volunteering for PMC membership

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

Hi,

I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would 
like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my 
nomination for PMC membership.

Hey look! He's willing to swim upstream to help *grow* Jakarta.  I say 
we take him!

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
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Re: Volunteering for PMC membership

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


 On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

  Hi,
 
  I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would
  like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my
  nomination for PMC membership.
 

 Hey look! He's willing to swim upstream to help *grow* Jakarta.  I say
 we take him!

Unless you want a fast-track program, I'll add him to my list of nominees
for quick voting.

Hen


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Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?

2003-12-18 Thread Stephen Colebourne
Then try this:

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges

It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the
disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to
one page always ends up annoying someone.

Stephen



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Re: Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Very nice, this really clarifies the organizational structure and issues at hand.

Thanks,
Harish
Stephen Colebourne wrote:

Then try this:

http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges

It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the
disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to
one page always ends up annoying someone.
Stephen



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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Dirk Verbeeck
+1

If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center 
of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, 
general list, news and download pages, ...

The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing 
each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project 
building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones 
and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.

Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
Is this possible?
-- Dirk



Noel J. Bergman wrote:

There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
	--- Noel




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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Dirk Verbeeck
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.


Who's the best person to nudge then? :)


Anyone.  Interested?
Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should 
join as well.

-- Dirk



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Volunteering for PMC membership

2003-12-18 Thread Dirk Verbeeck
Hi,

I, Dirk Verbeeck (dirkv), a jakarta-commons (and slide) committer, 
would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I 
request my nomination for PMC membership.

Regards,
Dirk


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 
  On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
 
  Henri Yandell wrote:
 
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
  existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 
  Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
 
 
  Anyone.  Interested?

 Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should
 join as well.

Noted.

Hen


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Ted Husted
To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to 
create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the 
board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. 
It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help 
show they are ready for self-management.

Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be hosted 
at Jakarta.

This option has always been available, it's just that every product 
since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website.

It's also important to remember that some of these products, like Log4J, 
are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project will have 
compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. (Now *that's* 
community building!)

-Ted.

Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
+1

If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of 
the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general 
list, news and download pages, ...

The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each 
project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a 
java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones 
and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.

Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
Is this possible?
-- Dirk



Noel J. Bergman wrote:

There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the 
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution 
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.

--- Noel




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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.

|  Don't feed  |
|  the trolls  |

   |
   |
   |
--\|/
I must admit that that was my first reaction too, but observing the net 
effect of this email, good discussions are happening on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
because of it.  Nothing in what I am about to say hasn't been said 
before, but hopefully pulling it all together will help people put the 
puzzle pieces together.

A few general comments:

* The assertion that decisions are being made on private lists is 
laughable.  The Jakarta bylaws are woefully out of date, as they were 
based on a different era where there was a ruling few who were 
responsible for wide oversight.  Mostly what has been discussed on the 
PMC mailing list is the process by which we decide the process to change 
the bylaws.  Exciting stuff, trust me.  And for those who are 
interested, decisions such as the one by log4j to become a project were 
made on the log4j mailing lists, as they should be.

*  The end goal is one where people feel empowered to make decisions. 
Not empowered in the '80s management buzzword sense, but empowered in 
terms of don't look to the pmc to make decisions for you.  Truth be 
told, the simplest way to achieve this is to place everybody who might 
potentially be affected by a decision on the PMC.  So, we are embarking 
on exactly that direction.  Incrementally.

*  This direction has implications.  If person x is on the Jakarta PMC, 
and codebase y is managed by Jakarta, then person x has a say over such 
matters as any releases of codebase y.  If this doesn't make sense, the 
solution is to put codebase y into a separate PMC.

*  There will always be discussions in private, particularly when they 
involve people issues.  A sister project recently had an issue dealing 
with a person voted down to become a commmitter, and this had a negative 
impact not only on that individual but on the community.  This project 
has since decided that all committer votes are to be done in private. 
While Jakarta hasn't yet had such an experience, it is worth noting that 
it is impossible to keep a secret when there are dozens of members on 
the PMC, but it is possible to keep such discussions out of Google 
searches and web archives.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Volunteering for PMC membership

2003-12-18 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata

Hi,

I, Tetsuya Kitahata (tetsuya), would like to help
oversight of the jakarta websites. I request
my nomination for PMC membership.
Maybe this can be expressed as jakarta-site2 PMC.

Note: The creation of jakarta-site2 project has been voted
here last year and adopted already.

Thanks,

-- Tetsuya Kitahata. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

P.S. As I've said before, if ASF Board would have socialized
the marketing activities into Public Relations and Communications
Committee, jakarta-site2 PMC could have helped such a committee,
i am sure.

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 23:39:31 +0100
(Subject: Volunteering for PMC membership)
Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

 Hi,
 
 I, Dirk Verbeeck (dirkv), a jakarta-commons (and slide) committer, 
 would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I 
 request my nomination for PMC membership.
 
 Regards,
 Dirk

-
Tetsuya Kitahata --  Terra-International, Inc.
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.terra-intl.com/


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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Dirk Verbeeck
I'm not asking for a change, I only see a lot of mails again and again 
about the board asking for more insight into the working of jakarta.
Same with the whole jakarta-commons  apache-commons discussion.

If this can be solved by just doing some paperwork (writing down who 
is supervising what) then just do that and move on.
I'm sure we can find enough people to create the project PMCs and 
every java member would be on the Jakarta Community PMC to guide 
the cross project guidelines/resources (from a java community 
perspective).

Everything will remain the same like it is today only the board will 
get more info about the state of each project.

If a project wants their own hostname/website then let them.
For log4j it makes sense because of the multi language aspect, or for 
mega projects like geronimo but otherwise...

--Dirk

Ted Husted wrote:
To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to 
create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the 
board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. 
It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help 
show they are ready for self-management.

Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be hosted 
at Jakarta.

This option has always been available, it's just that every product 
since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website.

It's also important to remember that some of these products, like Log4J, 
are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project will have 
compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. (Now *that's* 
community building!)

-Ted.


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
 public?

Andrew,

I can see how you might see the private list as secretive, devious, or
underhanded. 

I just see a private list as a necessity, I couldn't imagine the % increase
in e-mail traffic if the pmc list was open to anyone, or it was carried
on the general list. There are enough tangential conversations on the
pmc list now, so say doubling the number of posters could increase the volume to 3-4X 
what it is now.

If you feel strongly enough about it, if you wanted to create a digest of what was 
said by sifting through all the emails here and post it on general daily that would be 
ok by me.

-Rob

-Rob



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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
1) s/product/sub-project/

2) I don't know what 'hosted at Jakarta' means.  The CVS repositories 
are ASF respositories - there is no hierarchy grouping them as 
'jakarta'.  As for using the Jakarta website, the Jakarta community 
would be responsible for it, and thus they will decide on it's content. 
 IOW,  ASF projects that the Jakarta community has no oversight or 
responsibility for will be able to be a part of the Jakarta site at 
their pleasure. It's simply common sense.

geir

On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:45 PM, Ted Husted wrote:

To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to 
create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the 
board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did. 
It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to 
help show they are ready for self-management.

Essentially, each product would still be a TLP, but would just be 
hosted at Jakarta.

This option has always been available, it's just that every product 
since Ant has chosen to have their own hostname and website.

It's also important to remember that some of these products, like 
Log4J, are not just about Java anymore. The Apache Logging project 
will have compatible codebases available for half-a-dozen platforms. 
(Now *that's* community building!)

-Ted.

Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
+1
If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center 
of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, 
general list, news and download pages, ...
The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing 
each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project 
building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small 
ones and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.
Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
Is this possible?
-- Dirk
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  
There is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:

  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the 
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this 
confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution 
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.

--- Noel
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--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 
 
 Isn't everything you disagree with?
 
 You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
 something.  That's commonly known as FUD.


I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?


I'm not sure you do.
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 

Ironic.

 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.


Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
isn't always convenient.
 
-Andy

 geir
 
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?

-Harish

Henri Yandell wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:



IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
since they are closely related to web development and server side java
( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).


So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.

Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
that they don't focus on that subtitle.
Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.

Just as a flamebait suggestion :)

Hen

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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:00 -0500
(Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?)
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

 How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?
 
 -Harish

+1. Agreed.

Why don't Jakarta adopt EU-like governance style?
(Board = Secretariat of the United Nations:
Jakarta Sub-Projects can have the status of Nation
Jakarta itself is United Nations. Other TLPs are
Nations)

People often hold of the wrong end of the stick and assume that
bylaws is for bylaws. -- NO -- Bylaws is *for* the components
of each communities/organizations.

I'd like to see --
   Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
   Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
   Struts PMC: struts and related code
   Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
   Tapestry PMC: ...
   ...
styled governance (what Noel mentioned) in jakarta tlp.

I am not a laywer, however, there might be no legal problem.

Regards,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


 Henri Yandell wrote:
 
  
  On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:
  
  
  
 IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
 since they are closely related to web development and server side java
 ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).
  
  
  So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.
  
  Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
  FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
  that they don't focus on that subtitle.
  
  Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.
  
  Just as a flamebait suggestion :)
  
  Hen


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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell

Because it's wrong.

XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
Java Development and not in Jakarta.

If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact
it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites
the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be
fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community
inviting them in as important as it used to be.

I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is
Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon].

Hen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

 How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?

 -Harish

 Henri Yandell wrote:

 
  On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:
 
 
 
 IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
 since they are closely related to web development and server side java
 ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).
 
 
  So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.
 
  Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
  FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
  that they don't focus on that subtitle.
 
  Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.
 
  Just as a flamebait suggestion :)
 
  Hen
 
 
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell

Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the
Jakarta PMC etc.

The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website,
who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the
need to do mirrors.

If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites.

Hen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:

  From what I have understood today, this seems like a nice option to me to 
 straighten things out.

 +1

 -Harish

 Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

  +1
 
  If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
  No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of
  the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general
  list, news and download pages, ...
 
  The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each
  project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a
  java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
  The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones
  and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.
 
  Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
  Is this possible?
 
  -- Dirk
 
 
 
  Noel J. Bergman wrote:
 
  There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
  absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
 
Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
Struts PMC: struts and related code
Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
Tapestry PMC: ...
...
 
  All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.
 
  No one should feel that there is any relationship between the
  Foundation's
  legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
  already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution
  to the
  Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
 
  --- Noel
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java 
web development or just plain web development?

-Harish

Henri Yandell wrote:

Because it's wrong.

XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
Java Development and not in Jakarta.
If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact
it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or invites
the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be
fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the community
inviting them in as important as it used to be.
I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon is
Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon].
Hen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:


How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?

-Harish

Henri Yandell wrote:


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:




IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
since they are closely related to web development and server side java
( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).


So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.

Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
that they don't focus on that subtitle.
Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.

Just as a flamebait suggestion :)

Hen

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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy


Henri Yandell wrote:

Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the
Jakarta PMC etc.
The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website,
who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the
need to do mirrors.
If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites.
Why is this a problem? I think it is good to be that way. How is Apache website handled btw? May be 
we can follow suit?

-Harish

Hen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:


From what I have understood today, this seems like a nice option to me to straighten things out.

+1

-Harish

Dirk Verbeeck wrote:


+1

If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center of
the apache java development with a shared announcement list, general
list, news and download pages, ...
The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing each
project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project building a
java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones
and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.
Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
Is this possible?
-- Dirk



Noel J. Bergman wrote:


There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
 Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
 Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
 Struts PMC: struts and related code
 Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
 Tapestry PMC: ...
 ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
   --- Noel




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Re: [ANNOUNCEMENT] Apache Logging Services project

2003-12-18 Thread Vadim Gritsenko
Ceki Gülcü wrote:

Good morning to all,

The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of
Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a
resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A
copy of the resolution can be found at:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?LoggingApacheOrg/BoardResoluion 

The Logging Services project is intended to provide cross-language
logging services for purposes of application debugging and
auditing.


I wonder, will it include only Log4J (and sister projects, as stated 
in resolution), or Commons Logging, Avalon LogKit will be invited too?

Vadim



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[ANNOUNCEMENT] Apache Logging Services project

2003-12-18 Thread Ceki Gülcü
Good morning to all,

The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of
Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a
resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A
copy of the resolution can be found at:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?LoggingApacheOrg/BoardResoluion

The Logging Services project is intended to provide cross-language
logging services for purposes of application debugging and
auditing. The discussions leading to the submission of this resolution
can be found at:
 http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10711552621r=1w=2

We should also mention that thanks to the relentless efforts of many
developers and in particular those of Scott Deboy, we currently have
inter-operability between the following projects:
 * Log4Cxx (c++)
 * Log4CPlus
 * Log4j
 * Log4Net
 * Log4Perl
 * Log4PHP
 * JDK1.4's util.logging framework
There is still much work ahead bringing in the various projects to
work together within the Logging Services Project. The process is
likely to take a little while. In the mean time, we will continue to
do what we like best, that is developing open source software.
Happy holidays to all,

--
Ceki Gülcü
 For log4j documentation consider The complete log4j manual
 ISBN: 2970036908 http://www.qos.ch/shop/products/clm_t.jsp  



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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Stephen Colebourne
Not really (my POV)

As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy
  ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject.
But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or
WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe
Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there
actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply
does not exist in my eyes)

The alternative is a one layer structure
   ASF to MyProject
which gives full oversight, management and confidence both to the ASF and
the ASF. Separately, there is a search website that allows searches by all
the different ways that you might want to look things up.

After all, the one layer (TLP) structure didn't harm Ant or James, and
almost certainly benefitted Maven, Avalon and from the looks of it Log4J. In
the end, actions will speak louder than words.

Stephen


- Original Message -
From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it
restricted only to Java
 web development or just plain web development?

 -Harish

 Henri Yandell wrote:

  Because it's wrong.
 
  XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
  Java Development and not in Jakarta.
 
  If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
  digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the
fact
  it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or
invites
  the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be
  fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the
community
  inviting them in as important as it used to be.
 
  I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon
is
  Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon].
 
  Hen
 
  On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
 
 
 How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place,
no?
 
 -Harish
 
 Henri Yandell wrote:
 
 
 On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:
 
 
 
 
 IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave
jakarta -
 since they are closely related to web development and server side
java
 ( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).
 
 
 So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.
 
 Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
 FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
 that they don't focus on that subtitle.
 
 Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.
 
 Just as a flamebait suggestion :)
 
 Hen
 
 
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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
I like the idea but does this mean we will be dumping the Jakarta banner? Or will it serve as an 
incubator for TLPs? The Jakarta banner has earned quite a reputation and would be a shame to dump it.

-Harish

Stephen Colebourne wrote:

Not really (my POV)

As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy
  ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject.
But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or
WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe
Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there
actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply
does not exist in my eyes)
The alternative is a one layer structure
   ASF to MyProject
which gives full oversight, management and confidence both to the ASF and
the ASF. Separately, there is a search website that allows searches by all
the different ways that you might want to look things up.
After all, the one layer (TLP) structure didn't harm Ant or James, and
almost certainly benefitted Maven, Avalon and from the looks of it Log4J. In
the end, actions will speak louder than words.
Stephen

- Original Message -
From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it
restricted only to Java

web development or just plain web development?

-Harish

Henri Yandell wrote:


Because it's wrong.

XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
Java Development and not in Jakarta.
If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the
fact

it's in Java, or does it just depend on which community creates or
invites

the codebase. As they have to go through the Incubator now [or be
fast-tracked with the board's new scheme Greg mentioned], is the
community

inviting them in as important as it used to be.

I'd much rather find a real subtitle for Jakarta that fits well [Cocoon
is

Java web development, but only indirectly I think, ditto for Avalon].

Hen

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:



How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place,
no?

-Harish

Henri Yandell wrote:



On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:





IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave
jakarta -

since they are closely related to web development and server side
java

( compared with log4j or regexp for example ).


So, Jakarta = Server side web development is the subtitle.

Log4J, POI, ORO, Regexp, all of Commons except HttpClient, Latka and
FileUpload, Gump, BSF, BCEL are the ones that seem most out of place in
that they don't focus on that subtitle.
Slide would be if a WebDAV TLP were to arrive.

Just as a flamebait suggestion :)

Hen

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Re: Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?

2003-12-18 Thread Craig R. McClanahan
Quoting Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Then try this:
 
 http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges
 
 It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
 and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the
 disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial topic to
 one page always ends up annoying someone.
 
 Stephen
 

Stephen,

Thanks for taking the time to attempt condensing an incredible amount of email
(on an incredible number of mailing lists) down to a single page that
highlights the key issues.

I wanted to let you know that I just committed a small patch to the Wiki page --
where you said Note also that Struts committers have no rights to vote I
added the parenthetical statement (unless they are also members of the Jakarta
PMC) which is true for several of us.  Indeed, the Jakarta PMC has been
growing lately in a deliberate attempt to encompass committer representation
from more Jakarta subprojects.

Craig


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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Phil Steitz
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Not really (my POV)

As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy
  ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject.
But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or
WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe
Bloggs works'. There simply is no one way of categorizing, hence there
actually is no one community either. (ie. 'the jakarta community' simply
does not exist in my eyes)
I agree that we probably can't define Jakarta in terms of content in a 
way that will make everyone happy.  I disagree, however, that this means 
that there is no community, or that Jakarta should be dissolved.  I would 
say that Jakarta = the community. What are called Products on the web 
site are what this community produces. Java is one common denominator, but 
so are some common release management and decision-making practices 
(currently under debate / revision).

I am much less bothered than others about the fact that not *all* 
server-side Java in Apache is in Jakarta or that some Jakarta projects 
might belong elsewhere. I really don't see why this is a problem.

The only real problem that we have is making sure that we have sufficient 
oversight. The middle layer makes that look like more of a challenge, 
but that's only if you assume that oversight has to come from a small 
number of Jakarta PMC members.  Growing the PMC (as we are now) so that 
all community activity has has direct PMC oversight will solve the 
oversight problem.

Phil





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RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Henri Yandell wrote:

 XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon,
 James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta.

 If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
 digester be in jakarta or xml etc.  Does XML take precedence over the
 fact it's in Java, or [...]

There is an entire spectrum of possibilities between Jakarta as One Big
Project, and Jakarta as a Confederation of Projects.  And to be quite
honest, so long as there is proper oversight, I generally couldn't care less
where in the spectrum things get organized.  When you come down to it, we
ought to be facilitating an enlarged and healthy ASF Community, where
everyone feels welcome to participate in whatever project(s) they find
interesting.

The PMC structure is about oversight.  My view is that each subproject
should decide how it wants to participate in the structure, so long as it
ensures that proper oversight is provided.  And this is why, however the
projects decide to participate in a PMC, we should keep in mind that project
organization does not have to be reflected by the web organization.  If
project P decides to have its own PMC, and wants to be present on the web as
jakarta.apache.org/P, why should we say that it has to reside elsewhere?

In fact, client-side-caching and performance aside for the moment, imagine
if we had a new domain:

  my.apache.org

which was running some portal software, and allowed people to customize
their own view of the Apache Projects.  People who wanted to track commits,
news, e-mails, issues, and other information related to their favorite
projects could see their customized portal view of the ASF.

Perhaps impractical today, but just consider the possibilities when we stop
thinking of the web site structure as reflecting our internal organization.

--- Noel


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RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Costin Manolache wrote:
 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There
is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
 [list of PMCs]
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.

No one should feel that there is any relationship between the
Foundation's legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.

This is nothing I would encourage.  There's really no question that
it's legal.  But it does then make Jakarta a website, rather than a
community, IMO.  I'd rather see the community.

As I said in a reply to a message from Henri, I think that each project
should be able to chose how it wants to participate in a PMC, so long as
oversight is provided by the choice.  But I still maintain that the web site
structure does not have to, and should not be forced to, reflect that
choice.

 Actually - it's jakarta PMC that does the oversight for Jakarta commons
 and all other jakarta subprojects.

Hence my use of the terms de jure and de facto in my message.  We have
not made them the same, yet, but since we intend to do so, I see no need to
debate the current status.  :-)

 All committers who are active in jakarta are are willing should be part
 of the jakarta PMC.  That's how things work in httpd and this is the
 right thing to do.

 If tapestry ( or any other sub-project )  doesn't feel like beeing part
 of a jakarta community or doesn't like oversight by the jakarta PMC - it
 is free to apply for top level status.

I agree with both of those points ... so long as the second choice does not
mean that the choosing project must relocate its web presence, although it
may choose to do so.

 IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
 since they are closely related to web development and server side java

Agreed.  So are we agree that if one of them chooses to form its own PMC, we
won't force them out of Jakarta?  :-)

--- Noel


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something.  That's commonly known as FUD.
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions 
about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remember what you said.  You said that decisions were being made in 
private.


Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should 
we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's 
just
that I disagree.  See the difference?

I'm not sure you do.
But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is 
you making things up.



The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
to
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
Glad you caught that.
The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, 
especially
since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.

Ironic.

Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place 
here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
isn't always convenient.
And thinking things through isn't either.  But sometimes it must be 
done.

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
 about
 the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Remember what you said.  You said that decisions were being made in
 private.


Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too.  Damn those hallucinations.
I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything.
 
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should
 we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's
 just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?
 
 
 I'm not sure you do.
 
 But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is
 you making things up.


No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself
with this conversation.  I shall give you the honor of the last word.

-Andy
 
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem,
 especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 
 
 Ironic.
 
 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
 
 
 Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place
 here.
 No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
 isn't always convenient.
 
 And thinking things through isn't either.  But sometimes it must be
 done.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:27 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

+1

If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center 
of the apache java development with a shared announcement list, 
general list, news and download pages, ...

The only change is that the board gets a list of members overseeing 
each project (=PMC) and additionally a Jakarta Community project 
building a java community at Apache. (assisting the java projects)
The board will not get one big report from jakarta but many small ones 
and can see witch (sub)projects needs more members.

Yes, the board gets 1 report from each little project.  Jakarta is thus 
broken up.

It think this is a bad idea.

We have other problems to solve first.  Lets solve them and take care 
of our responsibility for oversight.

Then you can break up Jakarta for whatever reason you think makes that 
sensible.  At least then I don't feel like we punted on the oversight 
issue.

geir


Of course many members will be joining multiple PMCs.
Is this possible?
-- Dirk



Noel J. Bergman wrote:

There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.  There 
is
absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
  Jakarta PMC: responsible for jakarta-site/jakarta-site2
  Tomcat PMC: tomcat and related code
  Struts PMC: struts and related code
  Jakarta Commons PMC: ...
  Tapestry PMC: ...
  ...
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.
No one should feel that there is any relationship between the 
Foundation's
legal structure, and e-mail/web addresses.  We have had this confirmed
already by both Greg and Sam.  The above *is* an acceptable solution 
to the
Board.  The question is whether or not it is an acceptable one to us.
	--- Noel




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Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.


Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?
Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should 
join as well.
Either you believe that everyone should join (as I do), or that no one 
should join (as the break up Jakarta crowd would implicitly have it) 
other than to run a website.

You get a big welcome from me if the former, and a good luck, do 
good work from me if the latter.

geir

-- Dirk



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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where 
it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?

-Harish



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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Henri Yandell wrote:

 If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible
 for the website as a global concept. For example, the need
 to do mirrors.

 If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
 are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites.

How do you think the Jakarta site works already?  The site2 module is just
the core Jakarta site.  All of the projects already have their own sites
in their own CVS, which are then checked out under the
/www/jakarta.apache.org/$project.  Nothing would have to change, unless a
project *wanted* a new domain, from what I can see.  Am I missing your
point?  I'm just not seeing the problem.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Bill Barker
I'm sure that Craig or other will correct my mistakes (I haven't been here
quite that long :).

Jakarta started as Tomcat and friends after Sun donated Tomcat to the ASF
(hence the name 'Jakarta' :).  As the project grew (sign of success),
Jakarta grew to include projects that don't necessarily rely on Tomcat (but
could be used with), nor that Tomcat relies on.  This has been the
traditional server-side-java test.

Now, Jakarta has been having projects that want to leave to ASF-TLP status
(e.g. log4j, ant, maven, james).  This is calling into question what the
'Jakarta' name stands for now.  What this thread is about is trying to
answer this question:  what, if any, is the mission of 'Jakarta' going
forward.


- Original Message - 
From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?


 Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta
and how it got to where
 it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?

 -Harish



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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Craig R. McClanahan
Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta
 and how it got to where 
 it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?
 
 -Harish
 

These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be) colored by my own
personal experiences during the development of Jakarta -- including my
ignorance of a lot of the details in subprojects that I'm not an active
participant.  But it should give you a little feel for the history of the
place.

The gist of the creation of Jakarta was around three facts:

* Apache wasn't an incorporated entity (this is about
  four years ago now), but wanted to be -- and was
  formally becoming the Apache Software Foundation.

* Apache had a project to build a servlet container
  (Apache JServ) at a website called java.apache.org
  which created a trademark-use issue around java.
  (I was a committer on Apache JServ, which is how I
  originally got involved in open source software.)

* Sun wanted to contribute, and Apache wanted to accept,
  the source code for the servlet and JSP implementation
  called the Java Servlet Development Kit, and later
  published by Apache as Tomcat 3.0.

Just as an item of slight historical interest, Jakarta was the name of the
conference room at Sun where a lot of the early discussions took place.

An organizational framework to focus on developing open source server side Java
stuff was created to host these initiatives, and other related subprojects got
proposed and added to the mix.  As the number of Jakarta committers scaled from
the original 10 or so to where we are today (hundreds), the original charter
has
become, umm, somewhat stretched.

Ironically, it didn't take long at all for the scope of that original charter to
get exceeded, because one of the little nuggets of code that was included in
the
original Tomcat contribution was a pure-Java build tool (to replace make)
called Ant ...

As more and more subprojects were added, there were some inevitable cases of
overlapping scope, and overlapping implementations of the same ideas.  One of
the best things we've done (IMHO) was purposely creating a subproject
(jakarta-commons) focused on making small, focused, reusable packages, and
encouraging the larger projects to use them.  Not only has this been successful
within Jakarta -- there's been quite a lot of cross-fertilization among the web
app frameworks, for example -- it's also created a fairly rich library of
funcational packages that are widely used elsewhere.  But one could really
argue whether something like Commons Digester (originally designed as an
easy-to-use tool to parse XML configuration files) really fit the Jakarta
charter.

Over time, there have been more than a few, err, voluminous discussions about
how to scale up Jakarta from an organizational perspective, and whether the
fundamental organizing principle was still the correct one.  Does a focus on
server side stuff exclude what could be some really interesting open source
projects?  Does a focus on Java make sense when just across the website there
are things like xml.apache.org that are focused on a technology, not on an
implementation language?  Does it make sense to have community type projects
that host individual software package projects at all?

Coupled with these increasing concerns (at the ASF board level) about the
ability of any oversight group (a responsibility delegated to PMCs in the ASF
organizational structure), several original Jakarta subprojects (or even
sub-sub-projects in some cases) like Ant, Maven, and James decided to become
top level projects (TLPs) of their own -- this takes making a formal proposal
to the ASF Board that gets accepted, and the formation of a PMC for that
project.  Those sorts of discussions continue to this day.

Somewhat separately, but overlapping in time, it became clear that there needed
to be a way to incorporate new developer communities (and in some cases
existing codebases that were being contributed) into Apache.  The developers
(if they weren't Apache committers already) needed to learn the Apache way to
do things.  The code (if any) needed to be vetted for appropriate contributor
agreements to protect both the ASF and those that rely on our code.  Thus, the
incubator project was created as a place for these things to happen.  It is
also actively evolving.

personal-view
To a large extent, the stresses that are felt as the ASF grows are actually a
result of our success, and should not be looked at as signs of failure.  I
remember a statement from a consultant that one of my employers brought in
along the way to deal with some important decisions when we had no consensus at
all:

  The absence of stress is death.

So, here's to having some more stress!  :-)
/personal-view

Craig


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RE: Why you *want* to be on the PMC

2003-12-18 Thread Craig R. McClanahan
Quoting Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 Henri Yandell wrote:
 
  If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible
  for the website as a global concept. For example, the need
  to do mirrors.
 
  If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
  are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their websites.
 
 How do you think the Jakarta site works already?  The site2 module is just
 the core Jakarta site.  All of the projects already have their own sites
 in their own CVS, which are then checked out under the
 /www/jakarta.apache.org/$project.

And all of those $project sites are under oversight of the Jakarta PMC.  There
is no such thing as a jakarta sub-project based PMC.

 Nothing would have to change, unless a
 project *wanted* a new domain, from what I can see.  Am I missing your
 point?  I'm just not seeing the problem.
 

Although I'm  sympathetic to the idea that Jakarta sub-projects who then become
TLPs might want to maintain their jakarta.apache.org/$project web site for
brand identification purposes, I'm concerned about the potential for external
confusion over who's in charge here.  The reality would be that the Jakarta
PMC would (correctly) *not* think they had management over that subdirectory of
the site, but the legal distinction would be very likely missed by anyone who
is visiting.

If/when Struts becomes a TLP, I'm going to recommend that we do exactly what
Ant, James, and Maven (for example) did:

* Maintain a link on the Jakarta home page under Related

* Install a webserver redirect from http://jakarta.apache.org/struts
  to http://struts.apache.org.

   --- Noel

Craig


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