Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
Leo Simons wrote: Key ASF individuals are joining these discussions, on weblogs and various discussion forums. But the ASF as a whole is silent. In lieu of forming a statement for the ASF as a whole, what about organizing/encouraging/guiding people who want to participate? Maybe specific resources that should be targetted, such as where the most active and/or productive discussions are taking place. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software . strategy . design http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache should join the open source java discussion
Something big is stirring in the java world. There's talks between Sun and IBM about releasing an open source version of java. There's talks between the linux desktop movers about adopting java as the glue that binds the major desktop projects together. Key ASF individuals are joining these discussions, on weblogs and various discussion forums. But the ASF as a whole is silent. Apache is one of the biggest open source communities, and the leader of the pack when it comes to open source java. I think the Apache community should work together on an open letter to Sun, IBM, and the rest of the open source community stating our shared position on the subject. Like Havoc Pennington writes (http://ometer.com/desktop-language.html), the Community Should Decide and It's time to start the discussion. WDYT? -- cheers, - Leo Simons --- Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/ IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/ Articles Opinions -- http://articles.leosimons.com/ --- We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people wouldn't obey the rules. -- Alan Bennett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
On Mar 18, 2004, at 8:16 AM, Leo Simons wrote: Something big is stirring in the java world. There's talks between Sun and IBM about releasing an open source version of java. There's talks between the linux desktop movers about adopting java as the glue that binds the major desktop projects together. Key ASF individuals are joining these discussions, on weblogs and various discussion forums. But the ASF as a whole is silent. Apache is one of the biggest open source communities, and the leader of the pack when it comes to open source java. I think the Apache community should work together on an open letter to Sun, IBM, and the rest of the open source community stating our shared position on the subject. Like Havoc Pennington writes (http://ometer.com/desktop-language.html), the Community Should Decide and It's time to start the discussion. WDYT? The ASF has always been a proponent for 'open source java', and while I'm glad to see the rest of the world catching up, I believe the path we are on is fundamentally a good one, and we shouldn't deviate too far from it. Here's something I wrote a little while ago for the members list, describing what we do and will do : 1) Keep working to make TCKs available to ASF projects that implement JSRs, and when needed, infrastructure to run the TCKs. We cover the spectrum - from smaller WS stuff (including something for J2ME, IIRC), to the big mosnster, J2EE. The main activity is getting TCKs in the hands of non-members to use in ASF projects, something thats just requiring some legal paperwork. Given that we'll have a larger and larger group using TCKs, willing to fix them if given the chance, I see oppo for OSS-ing TCKs. Maybe I'm a dreamer. (Note that new the proposed JSR 241 for Groovy is going to be an OSS TCK and OSS RI). 2) Bring RIs here to the ASF. We have a good tradition of this already, Tomcat and JSP for example, and we need to continue it, either by taking on ownership of existing RIs, such as we are working on for JavaMail, or hosting RIs for EGs on which the ASF has a rep (or not). This will tend to force the open spec issue, as you can't get the free help of an OSS community if they can't read the spec and know the motivations behind APIs. 3) Do what we can to connect the various JSR-implementors in the OSS community. For example, we'd like to connect all J2EE implementors, both OSS and non-OSS (so JBoss would be invited), to talk confidentially with each other about issues they face to pass the TCK. This would expose the OSS communities w/ the commercial community in a deep, technical way, which I think will help the commercial crowd form an accurate picture of OSS. We are the only open source entity on the Executive Committee of the Java Community Process. The efforts of the ASF (w/ Jason as rep) resulted in pro-OSS changes in a de-facto international standards group. These changes included free JCP participation for individuals, academics and non-profits, the ability to actually create a TCK and RI under an OSS license, and the creation of the scholarship program for individuals, academics and non-profits to get TCKs and RIs free of charge w/ free support to certify open source projects. One very visible result of this is that the ASF and ObjectWeb are both J2EE licensees, and working to create certified open-source J2EE stacks. Since this recent brouhaha started, the intention is to get involved (me wearing the VP JCP and VP Jakarta hats makes me itch to do something :) At first I wanted to make a public statement too, but after thinking about it for a while, and since we had a nice quote from Brian in the first news cycle, I put that aside for a little while. This is a somewhat tricky issue due to the compatibility concerns and politics involved, and it's clear that we can be most effective if a) we are sure to continue to be a neutral party in what is currently visible as a Sun vs IBM public pissing match - IOW, we don't pile on Sun (nor ignore IBM) b) we completely understand the issues facing all sides (well, both sides, Sun and IBM, as I don't really care what ESR's issues are...) To that end, I've been working privately (w/ JCP hat on) with a few people, and wish to continue that way for a little while. I don't want this to appear as anything more than me just talking to people - not an official ASF action by any means - and I really wanted to keep quiet about it, but your post brought this front and center. I think the best thing that ASF community members can do for now, until the next news flareup, is in blogs, conversations etc, is point out how much the ASF does wrt 'open source java' - how this isn't a new idea and we're working hard to make it happen. And we're doing it not in the press, but where the rubber meets the road - through code and community. This isn't a meme to be planted - just a fact to disseminate. :) geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ? This is a fine idea, if we're bending the rules to the extent that our stuff won't run on any specifications compliant JVM we should address that, particularly so where it is an OS JVM. Conversely where our stuff doesn't work on an OS JVM because the JVM is at fault we should feed that back to the developers so they can make their project stronger. I hate to think how many defects have been identified and resolved in Sun's JVM as a result of ASF projects, lets make that same benefit available to OS projects too. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: the intention is to get involved snip/ really wanted to keep quiet about it, but your post brought this front and center. little did I know! See what happens when stuff happens on private mailing lists? Duplication of effort :-P I'll happily shut up, since you're obviously on top of things. And thanks for letting us know you're on top of things :D -- cheers, - Leo Simons --- Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/ IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/ Articles Opinions -- http://articles.leosimons.com/ --- We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people wouldn't obey the rules. -- Alan Bennett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Apache should join the open source java discussion
What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ? Which two? I've had a thought to try testing James under gcj at some point. RedHat has already done a whole bunch of Java-based Apache projects with gcj. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
sheepish I wasn't subscribed to community@ until now, so if there's something there that wasn't xposted to general@, let me know... /sheepish More inline : On Mar 18, 2004, at 11:21 AM, Leo Simons wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr wrote: the intention is to get involved snip/ really wanted to keep quiet about it, but your post brought this front and center. little did I know! See what happens when stuff happens on private mailing lists? Duplication of effort :-P LOL it wasn't on a private list. There was some informal discussion, and I kept meaning to bring it up to the community in general... I'll happily shut up, since you're obviously on top of things. And thanks for letting us know you're on top of things :D I won't claim to be on top of anything yet, but certainly will keep trying... geir -- cheers, - Leo Simons --- Weblog -- http://leosimons.com/ IoC Component Glue -- http://jicarilla.org/ Articles Opinions -- http://articles.leosimons.com/ --- We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people wouldn't obey the rules. -- Alan Bennett - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
On Mar 18, 2004, at 11:06 AM, Costin Manolache wrote: Serge Knystautas wrote: Leo Simons wrote: Key ASF individuals are joining these discussions, on weblogs and various discussion forums. But the ASF as a whole is silent. In lieu of forming a statement for the ASF as a whole, what about organizing/encouraging/guiding people who want to participate? Maybe specific resources that should be targetted, such as where the most active and/or productive discussions are taking place. What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ? That would be a statement, much better than we like open source java, but our software doesn't run on it because it doesn't really matter. Perfect - this is the way that the ASF has always supported open-source java - by actually doing it... geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion
Noel J. Bergman wrote: What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ? Which two? I've had a thought to try testing James under gcj at some point. RedHat has already done a whole bunch of Java-based Apache projects with gcj. Well, if you read the article that started the thread... You won't like it... The other open source java virtual machine is ... Mono. I think supporting GCJ and maybe kaffe would be good enough to start. And regarding Danny's comment - yes, testing and reporting bugs is the best solution, but just like we worked around bugs in Sun's VM, we should also try to work around bugs in the open source VMs, at least until the bugs are fixed ( or even better - until patches we send get included into the JVM CVS ! :-). At the moment Classpath project provides an almost complete implemnetation of the JDK1.3 ( with a lot of JDK1.4 ). And the same implementation is shared by all open source VMs that I know. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Apache should join the open source java discussion
What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the article ? Which two? I've had a thought to try testing James under gcj at some point. RedHat has already done a whole bunch of Java-based Apache projects with gcj. Well, if you read the article that started the thread... You won't like it... The other open source java virtual machine is ... Mono. The author failed to list several Open Source JVMs. Potentially the most promising overall, is IBM's Jikes RVM. I think it would be fine if the GUMP Project wanted to use Jikes RVM as part of their testing on the GUMP server. Depending upon how long each run takes, I could see GUMP doing runs with each of several JVMs, if the GUMP PMC felt that such compatibility testing was of interest. That would be particularly helpful if, as I hope, we get a JVM and Java class library here soon, but until the Software Grant is in Jim's file cabinet, I'm not counting chickens. See: http://mail.gnu.org/archive/html/classpath/2003-04/msg00038.html for a one year old summary of IKVM vs gcj vs Jikes RVM running Eclipse 2.1. The Jikes RVM is under the Common Public License. There seems to be a problem with some of IBM's web sites today, but this URL works: http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/java/library/j-jalapeno/. Personally, I've been planning to try James under GCJ, because I would like to see the impact of AOT native code compilation. At the moment Classpath project provides an almost complete implemnetation of the JDK1.3 ( with a lot of JDK1.4 ). And the same implementation is shared by all open source VMs that I know. The quality has been uneven, but is apparently good enough to run Tomcat, Ant, and several others. IBM's Jikes RVM uses Classpath. Classpath is GPL, with a binary distribution clause. Having corresponded with some of the Classpath developers, I know that their expressed intent is for it to be non-viral when distributed with non-GPL applications. I don't know what official stance the FSF takes on that, though. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
