RE: Axion / Derby status?
> My understanding is that the Axion folks wanted to wait > until they're done with their 1.0 release at Tigris > before moving So is my understanding as well. > I don't know about Derby. Derby is already in the Incubator and starting to work. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Axion / Derby status?
You'd likely get better answers on these if you ask the folks in the incubator, since that is the path into the ASF for both of the projects you're asking about. See: http://incubator.apache.org/ My understanding is that the Axion folks wanted to wait until they're done with their 1.0 release at Tigris before moving the code over. I don't know about Derby. -- Martin Cooper On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 13:11:48 +1000, Mark Livingstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Could someone in the know :-) please tell me what the hold up seems to > be with Axion moving into the incubator from it's current Tigris site? > From an outsiders perspective nothing seems to be happening. > > Likewise (as appropriate) for Derby? > > TIA > > MarkL > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Axion / Derby status?
Hi Guys, Could someone in the know :-) please tell me what the hold up seems to be with Axion moving into the incubator from it's current Tigris site? From an outsiders perspective nothing seems to be happening. Likewise (as appropriate) for Derby? TIA MarkL - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Apache Agila : BPM engine
All, The Jakarta PMC has voted to accept in Jakarta the contribution of a BPM engine from Gluecode, my employer, and I am starting the basic work of getting it into [and out of] incubation. Currently called "Apache Agila", it is a small, lightweight BPM engine that we have developed as the core of our BPM product. BPM is an important part of the Java server-side stack, and we feel that this contribution will be a great 'seed' for a full-fledged BPM project at Apache. At the ASF, you can find a fairly rich set of parts for an enterprise application stack, such as Geronimo, Tomcat, Derby, Jetspeed, Pluto et al, and now there's the addition of BPM. The engine has no dependencies upon platform (like J2EE), and I'm guessing that it's easy to embed this engine into the popular framworks and platforms, such as hivemind, spring, struts, pico, etc. Agila will arrive with simple HTML GUI via a servlet, and JDBC-based persistence, but these are services that can be replaced with other implementations. For example, the Gluecode product does a JSR-168 portals and J2EE-based implementation of the services. Anyway, this is a notice of what's happening, and an invitation to all to come and participate in the project. I've CC-ed [EMAIL PROTECTED], but lets keep the conversation about it here in the incubator for now. I'll be setting up the mail-lists first, and will note when that happens so we can switch . Thanks geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437 [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Sep 29, 2004, at 4:56 AM, Vadim Gritsenko wrote: The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide. No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not trigger the virality. According to some opinions, IIRC, "import some.lgpl.stuff;" triggers LGPL virality, I based my comment on this opinion. The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. Exactly, the clarity is missing. Any progress on this front will be an improvement. Vadim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
> The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of > the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking > effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. I believe that a specific example is implementing an interface where the interface is LGPL, the question of whether or not your work is a derivative work is one for the lawyers. d *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
> No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed > code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not > trigger the virality. > > The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of > the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking > effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage. > > This is a position that I'm trying to find a compromise for. Thanx for clearing that one up.. Mvgr, Martin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 29, 2004, at 4:56 AM, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/
org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from
apache.org
sites...
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't
a
problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be? If I got it right; Oliver wants
to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not
contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the
build
process (maven or ant)).
The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL
licensed itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF
repositories can't contain LGPL code. So the answer is to pull
(quickly) this code from Maven, and not to introduce to Slide.
No - LGPL isn't viral unless you make derivative works of the LGPL-ed
code itself. Just using an LGPL-ed codebase as a library does not
trigger the virality.
The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of
the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking
effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage.
This is a position that I'm trying to find a compromise for.
geir
I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council
backed clarification). Having to move every bit of maven code that
references LGPL off-ASF
would hit quite a few plugins. :-(
Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL
pieces.
PS Copying PMC because action is required
Vadim
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Sep 29, 2004, at 3:50 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/
org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from
apache.org
sites...
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
still no
If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the
build
process (maven or ant)).
I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council
backed clarification).
This isn't a clear-cut legal issue, like speeding or stealing. The
problem is that the ASF position is that the LGPL is unclear, and the
FSF won't clarify in an official way.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr +1-203-665-6437
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
sites...
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
The same as it was before pretty much. LGPL code may not be depended on
by code that is in the ASF CVS/SVN repositories, or released on the ASF
site.
Slide could have a pluggable backend, as long as no code in the ASF
repository imported packages from Hibernate (or any LGPL dependencies of
Hibernate).
If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build
process (maven or ant)).
I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council
backed clarification).
I'll talk with the Maven PMC/Jason to find out what the deal is. Last I
knew, the maven-plugins were hosted at
http://maven-plugins.sourceforge.net/ and not at the ASF, but maybe
there's a difference between these two plugin CVS repositories. The front
page for that states:
"Maven Plugins is a collection of plugins for Apache Jakarta Maven. These
plugins are currently not part of Maven since they use an incompatible
licence agreement or the JARs upon which they depend use an incompatible
license agreement."
So I would have expected the hibernate plugin to be there. Source in CVS
counted as distributing last I heard, but I'll find out more.
--
Until we hear differently though: no LGPL jars or imports on *.apache.org.
--
Hen
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004, [iso-8859-1] Endre Stølsvik wrote: | > The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed | > itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain | > LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to | > introduce to Slide. | | Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. | Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and | probably need to move. | The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming "infected". I believe this is untrue. LGPL doesn't infect, as such. It just places restrictions on how much you can restrict your users/customers of your code with your own license. I think that the problem is that -if- you have LGPL code in your system, then you must accept that the code using the LGPL code can be traced, disassembled and analyzed (and possibly packaged in such a way that the borders between your code and the library are clearly defined). The reason for this, is that a user shall have the option to -replace- the library with another version, or another implementation, and shall thus not be restricted from analyzing exactly how your code is using it. I might be dead wrong. You'd have to talk to a lawyer to get a vaguely accurate answer Endre, and even then it would be untested in court so only an educated guess. The chief contention is that the LGPL licence is written for the C language and so the interpretations of the C-specific parts of the LGPL are very open to question in other languages. Lawrence Rosen's book on Open Source Licensing looked pretty interesting. http://www.bookpool.com/.x/p5ym5sort6/sm/0131487876 When I browsed it at the shop, he seemed to come down on this line. Although the intention might be for LGPL to behave as people think it should, the legalese in the licence does not back this up. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
| > The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed | > itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain | > LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to | > introduce to Slide. | | Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't. | Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and | probably need to move. | The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming "infected". I believe this is untrue. LGPL doesn't infect, as such. It just places restrictions on how much you can restrict your users/customers of your code with your own license. I think that the problem is that -if- you have LGPL code in your system, then you must accept that the code using the LGPL code can be traced, disassembled and analyzed (and possibly packaged in such a way that the borders between your code and the library are clearly defined). The reason for this, is that a user shall have the option to -replace- the library with another version, or another implementation, and shall thus not be restricted from analyzing exactly how your code is using it. I might be dead wrong. Endre - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Martin van den Bemt wrote:
On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 13:56, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
sites...
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build
process (maven or ant)).
The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed
itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain
LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to
introduce to Slide.
Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't.
Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and
probably need to move.
The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming "infected".
That's exactly what I'm talking about, plugin code, not whole Maven. Sorry for
not being presice enough :-)
Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces.
PS Copying PMC because action is required
Ehh Maven has it's own PMC...
Oops :-)
I'll go with assumptions that you guys (Maven PMC) will take care of this.
Vadim
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Wed, 2004-09-29 at 13:56, Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
> Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
>
> > On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
> >
> >>>is not ASF License compliant?
> >>>
> >>>If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
> >>>
> >>>http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
> >>>
> >>>This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
> >>>maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
> >>>sites...
> >>
> >>Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
> >>thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
> >>because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
> >>problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
> >>user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
> >
> >
> > So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
> > Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
> >
> > If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
> > Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
> > part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
> > the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build
> > process (maven or ant)).
>
> The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed
> itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain
> LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to
> introduce to Slide.
Incorrect. Unless maven core depends on LPGL, which afaik doesn't.
Just the plugins that depend on LGPL code need to become LPGL and
probably need to move.
The plugin architecture prevents the core from becoming "infected".
> Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces.
>
>
> PS Copying PMC because action is required
>
Ehh Maven has it's own PMC...
Mvgr,
Martin
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
Henning Schmiedehausen wrote:
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
is not ASF License compliant?
If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
sites...
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build
process (maven or ant)).
The problem, AFAIU, is that this Maven's code now has to become LGPL licensed
itself, due to LGPL license requirements. And ASF repositories can't contain
LGPL code. So the answer is to pull (quickly) this code from Maven, and not to
introduce to Slide.
I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council
backed clarification).
Having to move every bit of maven code that references LGPL off-ASF
would hit quite a few plugins. :-(
Somebody could setup mavendev.org (see cocoondev.org) to host (L)GPL pieces.
PS Copying PMC because action is required
Vadim
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?
On Tue, 2004-09-28 at 11:11, Brett Porter wrote:
> > is not ASF License compliant?
> >
> > If yes, than I would really hate to have to point you at
> >
> > http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/maven-plugins/hibernate/src/main/org/apache/maven/hibernate/beans/SchemaExportBean.java?annotate=1.7
> >
> > This would compromise all Maven releases that include the
> > maven-hibernate-plugin. We distribute Binary and Source from apache.org
> > sites...
>
> Thanks for bringing this up. I've been meaning to respond to this
> thread with that in mind. I think we've checked this in the past and
> because the ASF is not distributing the hibernate code, there wasn't a
> problem (as you say, hibernate is downloaded from ibiblio when the
> user chooses to use the hibernate plugin).
So what would the answer of the first question of Oliver ("can I use
Hibernate in an ASF project") now be?
If I got it right; Oliver wants to implement a Slide Store that uses
Hibernate as back-end. According to your answer, he could do this as
part of the official Slide distribution, as long as it does not contain
the hibernate.jar itself (which could be downloaded as part of the build
process (maven or ant)).
I agree, that we need a clarification (best would be a legal council
backed clarification).
Having to move every bit of maven code that references LGPL off-ASF
would hit quite a few plugins. :-(
Regards
Henning
--
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0 http://www.intermeta.de/
RedHat Certified Engineer -- Jakarta Turbine Development -- hero for hire
Linux, Java, perl, Solaris -- Consulting, Training, Development
"Fighting for one's political stand is an honorable action, but re-
fusing to acknowledge that there might be weaknesses in one's
position - in order to identify them so that they can be remedied -
is a large enough problem with the Open Source movement that it
deserves to be on this list of the top five problems."
--Michelle Levesque, "Fundamental Issues with
Open Source Software Development"
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
