Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-06-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

This is amazing.  I agree with Craig on something almost completely.

Craig McClanahan wrote:

On 5/30/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 5/30/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 5/26/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Ack in terms of driving a community away because it is unable to meet
  our arbitrary criteria.

 That sort of thinking just seems so Borg to me. It's another way of
 saying that a software product only has value if its hosted by the
 ASF.

 If a subproject, or even a project, is down to one or two committers,
 and those committers can't find a third, and don't want to apply to
 the Commons or declare the product dormant, then setting up shop on
 GoogleCode is an excellent alternative. I've done the same myself, and
 it's not the least bit painful. In many ways, it's joyful.

Which Apache projects have you moved to GoogleCode and found it a
joyful experience? ie) I presume you mean starting a project there
rather than moving a community from the ASF.



I suspect you are missing the point that *I* at least think Ted is
making ... doing open source outside of Apache is fun, if you like
doing open source.  Doing open source inside Apache is a pain ... even
if you like doing open source, and even if you are an insider and know
all the loopholes.


My distaste for driving people to an open source repository is not
because of the repositories, but because our rules have driven them
out.

 It might even be healthy if more ASF committers were involved with
 other hosts. The ASF may be a cult, but it should not also be a fetish
 :)

Other communities, not 'host's. ie) You won't learn much from
code.google, java.net or sf.net other than whether you love or hate
the infrastructure. I bet a lot of us are involved with other
communities.



You're right that it's more community oriented than host oriented
(because it is about the process, not the technology).  You are wrong
if you believe that the Apache Way (if there is such a singular
thing, which I would dispute based on seven years of evidence to the
contrary) makes things easier rather than harder.  Yes, there are some
benefits of the Apache brand, but it is an open question whether
they are worth the costs.

For myself, I have lots of ideas to do future open source projects,
and (at the moment) zero plans to do them here at Apache.  The
emotional and procedural and cultural costs are too high to compensate
for the branding benefits.


Hen


Craig

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-06-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

This is amazing.  I agree with Craig on something almost completely.

Craig McClanahan wrote:

On 5/30/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 5/30/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 5/26/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Ack in terms of driving a community away because it is unable to meet
  our arbitrary criteria.

 That sort of thinking just seems so Borg to me. It's another way of
 saying that a software product only has value if its hosted by the
 ASF.

 If a subproject, or even a project, is down to one or two committers,
 and those committers can't find a third, and don't want to apply to
 the Commons or declare the product dormant, then setting up shop on
 GoogleCode is an excellent alternative. I've done the same myself, and
 it's not the least bit painful. In many ways, it's joyful.

Which Apache projects have you moved to GoogleCode and found it a
joyful experience? ie) I presume you mean starting a project there
rather than moving a community from the ASF.



I suspect you are missing the point that *I* at least think Ted is
making ... doing open source outside of Apache is fun, if you like
doing open source.  Doing open source inside Apache is a pain ... even
if you like doing open source, and even if you are an insider and know
all the loopholes.


My distaste for driving people to an open source repository is not
because of the repositories, but because our rules have driven them
out.

 It might even be healthy if more ASF committers were involved with
 other hosts. The ASF may be a cult, but it should not also be a fetish
 :)

Other communities, not 'host's. ie) You won't learn much from
code.google, java.net or sf.net other than whether you love or hate
the infrastructure. I bet a lot of us are involved with other
communities.



You're right that it's more community oriented than host oriented
(because it is about the process, not the technology).  You are wrong
if you believe that the Apache Way (if there is such a singular
thing, which I would dispute based on seven years of evidence to the
contrary) makes things easier rather than harder.  Yes, there are some
benefits of the Apache brand, but it is an open question whether
they are worth the costs.

For myself, I have lots of ideas to do future open source projects,
and (at the moment) zero plans to do them here at Apache.  The
emotional and procedural and cultural costs are too high to compensate
for the branding benefits.


Hen


Craig

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-14 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
-1 to Commons being Jakarta.  Commons should be commons, have its own 
PMC/domain.  It already has its own brand recognition.  I had an 
interesting conversation with a large financial customer about it just

before I left JBoss.  They weren't clearly even aware that commons was
part of Jakarta.

-Andy

Danny Angus wrote:

On 5/8/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...


-1

I would like to see the issues raised regarding the name resolved.
I would also like to see the options regarding commons as a successor
to the Jakarta PMC more fully explored.

Once consensus is forthcoming on these point I will vote +1 to TLP for 
commons.


I don't believe that commons TLP can be decided in isolation from
consensus about the future for either a) the jakarta pmc and b) the
jakarta brand.

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP

2007-05-08 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Hell no.  We're not letting you off that easy.

Laubach, Shawn Contr 555 ACSS/GFLA1 wrote:

So I can vote for this but then I'm not a committer anymore?  Just curious.

Shawn

-Original Message-
From: Nick Burch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:18 AM

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; general@jakarta.apache.org
Subject: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP

Hi All

After lots of discussion within POI, and Jakarta in general, we think POI
is ready to graduate to its own TLP. Thanks to the magic of ApacheCon,
lots of people have been on-hand to help finalise the proposal for this,
which is attached below.

So, now is the time to vote on the proposal:
[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...

Voting will close in one week.

Cheers
Nick



   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
   interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
   Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
   Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
   open-source software related to the continued implementation of
   the library for manipulating files in various business formats
   currently known as Apache POI for distribution at
   no charge to the public.

   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
   Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache POI Project, be and
   hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and
   be it further

   RESOLVED, that the Apache POI Project be and hereby is
   responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related
   to creation and maintenance of open-source software and
documentation
   related to the POI library based on software licensed to
   the Foundation; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, POI be and
   hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
   the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
   Apache POI Project, and to have primary responsibility for
   management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of
   the Apache POI Project; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
   hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
   POI PMC:

 * Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Amol S. Deshmukh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Jason Height [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Marc Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Rainer Klute [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Yegor Kozlov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Danny Muid [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Avik Sengupta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Glen Stampoultzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Sean Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Nick Burch
   be appointed to the office of Vice President, POI, to serve
   in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of
   Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death,
   resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until
   a successor is appointed; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache
   POI sub-project and encumbered upon the Apache Jakarta
   PMC are hereafter discharged.

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The Apache Jakarta POI Project: http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/

  



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Re: [VOTE] Move POI to TLP

2007-05-08 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

So umm... duh
+1

Nick Burch wrote:

Hi All

After lots of discussion within POI, and Jakarta in general, we think POI
is ready to graduate to its own TLP. Thanks to the magic of ApacheCon,
lots of people have been on-hand to help finalise the proposal for this,
which is attached below.

So, now is the time to vote on the proposal:
[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...

Voting will close in one week.

Cheers
Nick



   WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
   interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
   Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
   Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
   open-source software related to the continued implementation of
   the library for manipulating files in various business formats
   currently known as Apache POI for distribution at
   no charge to the public.

   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
   Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache POI Project, be and
   hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and
   be it further

   RESOLVED, that the Apache POI Project be and hereby is
   responsible for the creation and maintenance of software related
   to creation and maintenance of open-source software and documentation
   related to the POI library based on software licensed to
   the Foundation; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, POI be and
   hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve at
   the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
   Apache POI Project, and to have primary responsibility for
   management of the projects within the scope of responsibility of
   the Apache POI Project; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
   hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
   POI PMC:

 * Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Amol S. Deshmukh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Jason Height [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Marc Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Rainer Klute [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Yegor Kozlov [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Danny Muid [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Avik Sengupta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Glen Stampoultzis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 * Sean Sullivan [EMAIL PROTECTED]

   NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Nick Burch
   be appointed to the office of Vice President, POI, to serve
   in accordance with and subject to the direction of the Board of
   Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until death,
   resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or until
   a successor is appointed; and be it further

   RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to the Apache
   POI sub-project and encumbered upon the Apache Jakarta
   PMC are hereafter discharged.

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Linuxfest northwest

2007-04-23 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

anyone else coming?
http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?op=viewid=141509

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Re: [VOTE] Release Regexp 1.5

2007-03-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver





Yeah, well I consider voting on something that doesn't exist yet to be
absurd. So there we are.

This whole thread is absurd.  There is no technical issue here. 


cvs tag FOOBAR_1_0_RC1
ant
scp...
...crickets...
cvs TAG FOOBAR_1_0
ssh...
mv FOOBAR_1.0-RC1... FOOBAR_1.0-final...

-andy

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist..

2007-03-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I think it is a bad idea.  Either a project is alive or it is dead and 
most of the dead are not coming back.  The site, the project and 
everything else should reflect this.


I suggest that:

1. ECS
2. ORO
3. Regexp
4. Alexandria (already does basically)

all have a page that looks like this one: 
http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html


Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken 
their place and provide links.  There is
no need for an artificial dev list or users list.  Just close the 
lists.  (If you disagree look at the list archive for
each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in more than 
THEORY).


-Andy

Martin van den Bemt wrote:


Maybe a [EMAIL PROTECTED] I see general as being the list for jakarta wide 
discussions and
not so much a list of asking specific questions about components..

Mvgr,
Martin

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist..

2007-03-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Whoa...my uncle is back from the dead.

-Andy

Michael Oliver wrote:
 
We aren't related, but I agree with Andy.


Michael Oliver

-Original Message-
From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2007 3:17 PM

To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Create [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailinglist..

I think it is a bad idea.  Either a project is alive or it is dead and most
of the dead are not coming back.  The site, the project and everything else
should reflect this.

I suggest that:

1. ECS
2. ORO
3. Regexp
4. Alexandria (already does basically)

all have a page that looks like this one: 
http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html


Stating that the projects are dead and state what things have taken their
place and provide links.  There is no need for an artificial dev list or
users list.  Just close the lists.  (If you disagree look at the list
archive for each over the last 6 months and see if you REALLY disagree in
more than THEORY).

-Andy

Martin van den Bemt wrote:
  
Maybe a [EMAIL PROTECTED] I see general as being the list for 
jakarta wide discussions and not so much a list of asking specific


questions about components..
  

Mvgr,
Martin

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Re: My svn account

2007-01-16 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

no.  don't see it in spam folder either...

Martin van den Bemt wrote:

You received Joes mail ?

Mvgr,
Martin

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  

[EMAIL PROTECTED] :cat /usr/local/bin/svnpasswd
#!/bin/sh
echo Please visit https://svn.apache.org/change-password;


robert burrell donkin wrote:


On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:44 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
  

IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4
months).  I would like to commit something.  My SVN account is not
working.  per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I
got no response.  I am still able to log in to people.apache.org.



svnpasswd...?

- robert



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Re: Nightly builds docu?

2007-01-16 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Ummwhy not out of Gump?

Phil Steitz wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:
  

On 1/16/07, Ortwin Glück [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Hi,

Does anyone (Henry?) know what happened to
  http://www.apache.org/dev/nightly-builds.html ?

It's referenced from
  http://www.apache.org/dev/
at the very bottom of the page. I'm looking for information how to get
nightly builds done for HttpComponents.
  

It probably never existed. When that page was created the links were
made for pages that didn't exist to encourage people to write them -
didn't work :)

Nightly build wise... it's still an unorganized situation. In Commons
we have some hand written scripts that are used on a zone (vmbuild) to
build the code each night. Taglibs used to be built each night on
Glenn's machine (I suspect that's not true anymore).

We could expand the script for Commons to work from the Jakarta
perspective and not the Commons one. 


+1 and would not be hard to do.  Makes sense to do this for all Jakarta
components that want nightlies and as long as the builds are
reasonable in execution time, this should not be a problem.  The
current script supports Ant, Maven 1 and Maven 2.   The script code is
in svn at jakarta/commons/proper/commons-nightly/.  The main script,
commons_nigthly.sh gets svn upped on vmbuild by a crontab wrapper before
executing each night, so if you just make changes to include a new build
or build type into this script and config and check in the changes, the
new component will be added.  


Phil


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Re: My svn account

2007-01-15 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

[EMAIL PROTECTED] :cat /usr/local/bin/svnpasswd
#!/bin/sh
echo Please visit https://svn.apache.org/change-password;


robert burrell donkin wrote:

On Wed, 2007-01-10 at 16:44 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  
IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4 
months).  I would like to commit something.  My SVN account is not 
working.  per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I got 
no response.  I am still able to log in to people.apache.org.



svnpasswd...?

- robert



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My svn account

2007-01-10 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
IIRC, this is my 4th attempt to resolve this (I try like every 3-4 
months).  I would like to commit something.  My SVN account is not 
working.  per the instructions off the SVN page I emailed [EMAIL PROTECTED]  I got 
no response.  I am still able to log in to people.apache.org.


Suggestions for resolution?  Account name: acoliver.  Any help would be 
appreciated.  I will consider requests for bribes.


-andy

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POI TLP -- constructively

2006-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I really liked hearing Avik speak up because he's been hurting for 
awhile and not spoken up.  It was Nick's first release, cut him some 
slack.  POI has been around since 2001, in Apache since 2002.  It is 
nearly 2007.  Talks of mentoring us or incubating us are a little 
patronizing and insulting (multiple of us our even members of the 
foundation though I forget who).  Much of the thread is about bashing us 
and bashing me in particular which I stupidly reacted to partly out of 
fatigue.  I appologize for that, I've been very busy launching 
http://buni.org and planning our corporate structure.


It is fair to say that not many POI people participate in Jakarta.  
However, to add perspective we never joined the Jakarta as it is -- we 
joined Jakarta as it was...and one day this formed around us.  It is 
fair to criticize our build...it is pretty rusty and yucky.  I do 
however thing focusing too much on it is a bit well...mean.  Nick has 
been doing a great job and a lot of work.  (I on the other hand will 
have to merge my patches into SVN before I can even commit them since 
they're off of CVS :-P ).  However it was his first release.  Moreover, 
Apache's release policies have evolved considerably since the last 
official release and none of us have a valid signed key...that needs to 
be rectified (laziness, don't like conventions where all the cool key 
signing parties).  We're not the only one's guilty of kinds of neglect.  
Our own Marc Johnson (who cofounded the project) has been extremely 
frustrated at the lack of responsiveness in getting his access/etc in 
order and no one at POI seems to be able to jerk the right chain in 
Apache to make that happen (and I think he requested from this PMC with 
no effect).  So much that he's given up!


In any case, legal issues aside (which have to a good degree abated, but 
take yourself back 5 years) I really don't want POI to really merge into 
Jakarta (which is really now the successor to Jakarta Commons) and I 
don't think the majority of the committers do either.  On the other 
hand, I really don't think POI by itself can be a TLP as its scope is 
too narrow (historically this was deliberate).  I also don't think that 
parts of POI have much of a future as we're moving to an XML formats 
era, but other parts certainly do.  Partly because of projects like POI, 
Microsoft is even moving.  Once the default is to save in an XML format 
then will anyone really care about POI as it is as more than a 
migration tool.


That being said, there is considerable interest in unified APIs for each 
of these verticals (spreadsheets, documents, etc) and considerable life 
in POI with a very active userbase.  Many people dealing with data 
formats have asked for common APIs for the various verticals that output 
to the various formats.  Moreover, many of us are no longer as single 
minded with regards to Java as we once were (POI ruby for example).  And 
achieving API compatibility across these could be interesting.


I therefore propose this:

* Jakarta PMC has the responsibility to not call more votes on 
restructuring POI during the next X months.  (Access or otherwise)


* POI committers have responsibility for achieving the proper oversight 
procedures and putting out a new release in the next X months


* POI committers have responsibility for putting together a TLP proposal 
and working out a consensus.


(BTW that pretty much is batting 1000 on this: 
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaPMCRequestTLPBenchmark)


Full disclosure:

I've also submitted a counter proposal to the committers as an 
alternative to leave apache entirely.  However thus far most folks seem 
to value POIs association with Apache and the opportunities afforded 
them, even if they find it difficult to work with as one person stated 
in response.  I suspect TLP status would alleviate some of the mutual 
snags between apache and POI (for one we could get poor Marc his access 
back despite him having sent in his CLA now like 3 times including when 
the project moved to Apache and for two we'd be sending our reports in 
ourselves and thus have to do more proper oversight). 

However, PLLEEAASS let's press the PAUSE button 
until January 3rd so that we can all get very drunk and open presents 
rather than jerk each other's chains in front of a computer on a mailing 
list.


-Andy

Andrew C. Oliver
Buni Luni
http://buni.org


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Re: POI TLP -- constructively

2006-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Sleep Martinsleep.  All will be answered, resolved...but not today.  
Right now I'm going to help my 2 year old draw dinosaurs with his 
Hanukkah present (he is obsessed with dinosaurs).


-andy


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Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.

2006-12-15 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I feel a bit attacked for no reason really (regarding the barbs thrown 
in my direction).  It has been some time since I have not been rather 
civil on this list and I would expect the return courtesy.  I've always 
tried to make a good faith effort with regards to POI.  I have never 
supported (and voted against) the other jakarta flattening thing and at 
the time it was disingenuously provided (I never reversed my -1 vote you 
just ignored it).  Originally if memory serves (like 5 yrs ago) the 
legal issue came from our mentor into Jakarta (Stefano Mazzocchi) and 
following that based on some early issues with legal stuff that was a 
real thread and some real concerns and scenarios (some of which has to 
do with an individual that did become a very spirited contributor 
elsewhere).   That stuff should not be vetted publicly and probably not 
on the PMC list.  

We very nearly did have a REAL problem in the past that would have put 
the project and the ASF in jeopardy and steps were taken to require a 
personal assurance.


I still have no personal desire to have the same people who brought me 
commons automatically in POI.


I would like to see a formats.apache.org project which was devoted to 
Java/Ruby/C# APIs for office software file formats and more.  However I 
don't wish to be chair.  I would support nick as chair though and lend 
him what assistance I can. 

With the launch of Buni (http://buni.org) my time for repeating votes 
every few months because you're a sore looser while throwing barbs at me 
is seriously limited.  I do however welcome constructive 
good-intentioned dialog



-Andy

Nick Burch wrote:

On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Henri Yandell wrote:
Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had 
suggested the

requirement.

Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original 
details?


My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer 
many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF.


OK, I'm happy to be corrected :)


Assuming the Apache legal team are happy with us dropping the 
requirement (which I take from Martin's email that they are?), then I 
don't see why we couldn't drop the restriction.


I'm all for getting more Jakarta participation in POI, and more POI 
participation in the rest of Jakarta. That said, I think I'll wait for 
Andy's response before I formally switch to a +1


Nick
(I am from POI)

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Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.

2006-12-15 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Hey I have an idea!  If it doesn't pass this time we can call another 
vote right before the next holiday and hope that none of the POI PMC 
members are around...  Then 3 months later do it again.


-1 (because my votes don't seem to be counted and Henri will make up 
backstory for me)


Henri Yandell wrote:

On 12/15/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 12/15/06, Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
  Apache legal doesn't know anything about this..

 Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had 
suggested the

 requirement.

 Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original 
details?


My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer
many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF.

From an ASF point of view if someone breaks an NDA on our list or in a
commit, then it's their head and not ours. We would respond as quickly
as possible once we're aware of the issue by removing reference to
that issue (and unless we think it was an honest mistake also yanking
the commit rights of the person who broke it). I'm not sure if we'd
legally have to do that or not - I don't know how NDAs fit into IP
(copyright/trademarks), or if its just a personal agreement between
two parties and the NDA breaker is just breaking that contract. I am
not a lawyer etc etc, but the above is my understanding and would hold
for any of our mailing lists.

Public statements seem like an odd thing. There's no official archive
of them at the ASF (and they're not made to the ASF), so I doubt they
hold any weight or value to the ASF.


Additionally - Harmony setup some extra process to help with making
sure everyone involved knew that the ASF didn't want any trade secrets
to be exposed - so there may be something that POI can learn from them
[Geir?].

Hen

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Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.

2006-12-15 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

The alias is immaterial  to me

-Andy

Roland Weber wrote:

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  

[...]
I would like to see a formats.apache.org project which was devoted to
Java/Ruby/C# APIs for office software file formats and more.



That's a very unspecific name. formats can mean anything, from
formatting a file system to data formats/representations like BER.
How about compound documents - compdocs or compdogs?
That's probably better than some acronym like jivoff
(Java Implementations of Various Office File Formats :-)

cheers,
  Roland

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Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.

2006-12-15 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Will Glass-Husain wrote:

Andy-- No one was going to railroad this through without input from
POI.  See my previous email where I insisted that we have POI
participation.  (and I would have -1'd this automatically if it had
been lacking).   The discussion was civil up until recently.
Okay.  It just didn't LOOk that way. 


I am wondering about this vote though.  Why now?  and what's the
significance of POI/Jakarta svn access merging?  To me it seems the
flattening of svn is of little significance.  After a year with the
new structure, I see individual cases where committers have
cross-pollinated (in commons, perhaps) but it hasn't seemed to make a
big impact for many subprojects.

+1

So, then - Martin - why are you calling for a vote?  Is there a
pressing need to get access to POI svn?  Are there patches being
submitted but not going in?  Are you just trying to clean up Jakarta,
make it more definable?  Or is there something going on with POI that
we should discuss publically?


+1

There's a reasonable discussion that could be held about the role of
POI and Jakarta.  Maybe we should have that discussion instead of
voting on a controversial but practically insignificant issue.

+1

I'd like to see a TLP.  Or baring that an exit. 

WILL

On 12/15/06, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hey I have an idea!  If it doesn't pass this time we can call another
vote right before the next holiday and hope that none of the POI PMC
members are around...  Then 3 months later do it again.

-1 (because my votes don't seem to be counted and Henri will make up
backstory for me)

Henri Yandell wrote:
 On 12/15/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On 12/15/06, Nick Burch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Fri, 15 Dec 2006, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
   Apache legal doesn't know anything about this..
 
  Back when I joined POI, I was told the apache legal team had
 suggested the
  requirement.
 
  Perhaps one of the older POI committers can supply the original
 details?

 My understanding is that the advice is from Andy's personal lawyer
 many moons ago, maybe before POI joined the ASF.

 From an ASF point of view if someone breaks an NDA on our list or 
in a
 commit, then it's their head and not ours. We would respond as 
quickly

 as possible once we're aware of the issue by removing reference to
 that issue (and unless we think it was an honest mistake also yanking
 the commit rights of the person who broke it). I'm not sure if we'd
 legally have to do that or not - I don't know how NDAs fit into IP
 (copyright/trademarks), or if its just a personal agreement between
 two parties and the NDA breaker is just breaking that contract. I am
 not a lawyer etc etc, but the above is my understanding and would 
hold

 for any of our mailing lists.

 Public statements seem like an odd thing. There's no official archive
 of them at the ASF (and they're not made to the ASF), so I doubt they
 hold any weight or value to the ASF.

 Additionally - Harmony setup some extra process to help with making
 sure everyone involved knew that the ASF didn't want any trade secrets
 to be exposed - so there may be something that POI can learn from them
 [Geir?].

 Hen

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Re: [site] proposed changes

2006-12-04 Thread Andrew C. Oliver




Why not just move all of the content of all of these pages to the 
wiki and

change the links.
Or better still have a section of wiki links in the right hand nav for
them.


Linking to pages in the wiki is bad, I think. When a page in a wiki
has reached a point of wanting to be individually linked to, then I
think that's a sign that it wants to be on the site.


I actually favor the idea of the whole site being a wiki.  I see little 
value from hand coding the p tags and wanking around with the tools to 
build it.Then the process for structuring the site is democratized 
and the process for generating the consensus and structuring the site 
will be closer to the metal.

However, I've never been much of one for ceremony.


-Andy


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Re: [Notice of intent]: Make Jira auth like SVN

2006-05-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

-1 (just like I was -1 to the SVN one)

-Andy

Henri Yandell wrote:


I've moved Jelly, Velocity, Velocity-Tools, Turbine and HTTPComponents 
to use the Jakarta permissions - which provides various permissions to 
the jakarta-developers group.


Said group is formed from the members of the subproject groups mentioned 
above, along with Hivemind, Cactus and Tapestry.


Hen

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Henri Yandell wrote:



I think this is a fairly unexciting concept, so rather than voting on 
it I'll just state that I (or a volunteer(?)) am going to do this and 
see if anyone -1s.


As Felipe pointed out, it's a pain in the arse not being a developer 
for other Jakarta projects in Jira, given that he can now commit to 
them. So the idea is to make the Jira authorization similar to the SVN 
authorization (keeping POI separate, and merging the rest into one 
group).


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Re: [Notice of intent]: Make Jira auth like SVN

2006-05-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Actually -0 for this.  POI is on bugzilla.  I still don't like 
commonsificaiton on Jakarta but won't be a

prick about this one.

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

-1 (just like I was -1 to the SVN one)

-Andy

Henri Yandell wrote:


I've moved Jelly, Velocity, Velocity-Tools, Turbine and HTTPComponents 
to use the Jakarta permissions - which provides various permissions to 
the jakarta-developers group.


Said group is formed from the members of the subproject groups 
mentioned above, along with Hivemind, Cactus and Tapestry.


Hen

On Wed, 5 Apr 2006, Henri Yandell wrote:



I think this is a fairly unexciting concept, so rather than voting on 
it I'll just state that I (or a volunteer(?)) am going to do this and 
see if anyone -1s.


As Felipe pointed out, it's a pain in the arse not being a developer 
for other Jakarta projects in Jira, given that he can now commit to 
them. So the idea is to make the Jira authorization similar to the 
SVN authorization (keeping POI separate, and merging the rest into 
one group).


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tiles as the seed for Jakarta Web Components

2006-04-26 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
No.  There isn't a consensus.  Just you guys REALLY REALLY want it to 
happen.
Do not mistake one for the other.  I did pay attention.  Yet feel the 
issue has not been
sufficiently addressed thus I'm -1 for all the previously stated reasons 
in all of the vaguely
alluded to threads for all the reasons stated previously that I still 
feel are not addressed. 


-Andy

Martin Cooper wrote:

On 4/25/06, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  

I'd be against another commons style sub-community.  Unless you can show
me
a defined scope, web components means nothing, then expect my objection.




Understood. A formal scope does need to be written down and agreed upon.
However, I believe that concensus on the gist of such a scope has already
happened, between the lines, in the numerous previous threads on JWC on
various lists.

--
Martin Cooper


-Andy
  

James Mitchell wrote:


I believe that this would be a great way to bootstrap this new
  

community.


If this were a formal vote, then I, as both a Struts PMC and a Jakarta
PMC member, would throw a binding +1 your way.

--
James Mitchell




On Apr 24, 2006, at 11:56 PM, Martin Cooper wrote:

  

There has been considerable discussion, on this list and others, about
the
creation of a Jakarta Web Components sub-project (also previously
known as
Jakarta Silk). I believe the concensus has been in favour of creating


it.


However, we seemed to get bogged down, several times, in discussions
of the
name, or of exactly which pieces of Jakarta Commons, Jakarta Taglibs,
etc.,
should move to the new sub-project.

Meanwhile, over at Struts, we have had a number of discussions about


the


future of Tiles[1], currently a Struts sub-project. We have been


working


hard to make Tiles independent of Struts, and are close to achieving


that


goal. With Tiles no longer depending on Struts, it makes little sense
for it
to remain a part of the Struts project. In fact, it is much more
likely to
flourish outside of Struts.

The proposal, then, is to create the Jakarta Web Components
sub-project, and
make Tiles the first citizen of that sub-project. This simultaneously
achieves several objectives:

1) We actually get started with the Jakarta Web Components sub-project.
2) We can defer discussion of which other parts of Jakarta move there.
3) We create a logical home for the now-Struts-independent Tiles.

While Tiles is a powerful templating framework, it is actually a fairly
small code base, making it a good candidate for an independent web
component. It is still being developed, so we would not be seeding
Jakarta
Web Components with a dormant component. Several of the Struts


committers


(many of whom are already Jakarta committers) would come here to


continue


working on Tiles, and to help build the Jakarta Web Components
sub-project.

Once Jakarta Web Components is up and running, it would, of course, be
up to
the various communities surrounding Commons and Taglibs components, and
potentially other Jakarta sub-projects, as to whether or not they
choose to
join the new sub-project. The goal of this proposal is simply to seed


the


sub-project and get the ball rolling.

Comments?


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Re: [RESULT] Move Jakarta Cactus/JMeter to new Testing TLP

2006-04-24 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
BTW, while I simply don't care on this particular issue.  I object to 
the bizarre form of this vote by procedure as a

matter of practice.  On these issues:

1. If you don't get any response from the dev list of that project 
coming to the PMC with a vote seems to be
call votes until I get the answer I want -- which I have always 
thought was a bit off.


2. The odd form of the vote.  +0 is support but won't help and +1 
always provides for help.  While Apache is a
meritocracy rather than a do-ocracy (and believe me...it is different) 
this ensures that the project will have enough
of the labor support that it will need.  Removing the labor component of 
the vote is just plain ill-advised IMO.


No need to explain this to me, I'm just explaining why I may -1 on 
form and not substance anything that is done this
way in the future.  Yet, I'll of course ignore it if I simply don't care 
enough about the success for failure of the issue, but

silence in this case is not consent :-)

-Andy

Felipe Leme wrote:

Hi all,

After the second run, the move has finally been approved!

Here are the final votes:

*** Binding (PMC Members) votes in order they were received

+1 Felipe Leme
+1 Peter Lin
+1 Yoav Shapira
+0 Sebastian Bazley
+0 Henri Yandell
+1 Vincent Massol
+1 Stephen Colebourne
+1 Scott Eade
+1 Rahul Akolkar
+1 Henning Schmiedehausen
+1 Martin van den Bemt
+1 Dion Gillard
---
+10 total

*** Non-binding  votes in order they were received

+1 Christophe Lechenne
+1 Magnus Grimsell
+1 Jorg Schaible
---
+3 total


I will check what has to be done next (and then inform this list...).


-- Felipe

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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-10 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Why?  Do you need something to do?  I have many unworked open source 
tasks that I could pass on.  I'm happy to help you along on them. 
Seriously.


Henri Yandell wrote:


On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Torsten Curdt wrote:


 However Jakarta-sandbox is
SCOPELESS.  Go have a scopeless sandbox on sourceforge IMO.  If you want
to start a whole NEW project then do that in the incubator IMO.


Why on sourceforge - why not on our infrastructure?
What the difference for you?

You want every tiny (commons) library go through the incubator?
...or do you just don't want full projects sneak in through that sandbox?

So far I don't understand why you are seeing this so problematic.


I think I get it.

* If the scope of Jakarta = anything in Java, then a Jakarta Sandbox is 
a terrifying prospect.


* If the scope of Jakarta is refined, then a Jakarta Sandbox would not 
be a problem.


I think it's a pretty fair point for people to have. Will start another 
email based on Jakarta's scope.


Hen

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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-09 Thread Andrew C. Oliver


So basically if I call my project a component I don't have to go 
through the incubator just YOUR

incubator.


Nope, poor explanation on my part. Code created within the Apache 
community does not have to go through the incubator at all. The only bit 
component refers to is related to Martin's point - it describes Jakartas 
scope - or at least the scope that I think we're arriving at after years 
of subprojects becoming tlp.




Not everyone is at your destination.  Nor does everyone agree on the 
direction.


Totally NOT how the incubator was described to me.  As I understand it 
if Tomcat (for instance) wants to create a new JSP engine, that's kosher 
for Tomcat.  However if someone in POI wanted to create a new AI engine 
(having nothing to do with MS file formats) then that is Incubator-toast.


3. -1 to the form of this proposal which seems overly coarse grained 
or not nearly detailed (I'm not sure which)


Sounds about right - response so far suggests I need a lot more in 
the proposal - and it's probably better to go with the JLC vote next 
so the sandbox issue would be more obvious (things would be going 
from Commons Sandbox to JLC grouping).


So far that seems like more commons mess.  Thus far I've failed to see 
what makes it not more of the same (aka commons).


The usual chestnut :) You say communities, I say community.



I said nothing of the sort either way.  I have come to consider such 
discussions in the same thread as proactively actuate our SOA 
realization strategy paradigm shift...  Lets focus on core and concrete.


Agreed, the JLC proposal is completely yet more commons mess. Why's the 
'yet more' part of this negative?




I would challenge that the problem with the commons mess is it has no 
scope what-so-ever -- except kinda java...or
not really...  And now somehow the Ant has designed to swallow the 
elephant.


-1 to that.  No more predominantly scopeless or fuzzy-scope 
commons-like-projects.  No more painless ways around the incubator.  Not 
because I love the incubator, I think it was a bad idea, but it should 
apply to everyone.


I think HTTPClient has a scope (for instance) and that's probably even 
tight.  I don't think commons has ANY scope other than what the 
participants have decided to do today.


If you want to talk the board's intent -- then this is the core of the 
issue and not whether you force us all to get 1000 irrelevant-to-us 
emails in a day.


-andy


Hen

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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-09 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Based on that what WOULD BE out of scope of today's commons or this 
MEGA-sandbox or this JCL or whatever?


robert burrell donkin wrote:

On Sun, 2006-04-09 at 10:20 -0400, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

snip

Totally NOT how the incubator was described to me.  As I understand it 
if Tomcat (for instance) wants to create a new JSP engine, that's kosher 
for Tomcat.  However if someone in POI wanted to create a new AI engine 
(having nothing to do with MS file formats) then that is Incubator-toast.


that is a matter of scope, not incubation policy

a hypothetical example might help to illustrate the difference:

JSP engines are in-scope for tomcat but out-of-scope for xerces. xerces
is not allowed a JSP engine as part of that project. 


but if a new JSP engine wanted by tomcat was created outside the ASF, it
would need to come in through the incubator. if it arrives without a
external community (for example, because it was developed off-shore by
tomcat developers) then it's a simply process of legal sign off. if it
arrives with a community then it needs to enter as a podling to ensure
that the community gets the help they need to understand how apache
works.

however, if the xerces developers (let's say for sake of argument)
wanted to create a JCP engine at apache but outside tomcat they would
need to create a new project. it is now seems more difficult for new
projects to be created at apache (the test is subjective and democratic
so this is an observation not a rule). it is much easier to create a new
project offshore and then bring it in through the incubator. so, the
scope issue would (for practical purposes) probably require them to go
through the incubator.

- robert



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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-09 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Yes.  A lot of things predate the incubator.  I'm not opposed to say an 
HTTPD-sandbox for experimental HTTPD related stuff.
I'm not opposed to a POI-sandbox (indeed we have one but call it 
scratchpad) for POI-related stuff.  However Jakarta-sandbox is 
SCOPELESS.  Go have a scopeless sandbox on sourceforge IMO.  If you want 
to start a whole NEW project then do that in the incubator IMO.


Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


Noel J. Bergman wrote:

projects coming into the ASF go through the Incubator.  New things
started entirely within the ASF do not, currently.

Then there is no NEED for a sandbox.


As you know, the sandbox predates the Incubator, and AIUI, the Sandbox
exists so as to allow experiments without polluting the respository in such
manner that would confuse the public and ourselves about what is real and
what is play.  There may be other ways in to achieve that goal.






--- Noel


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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-08 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

-1 on these points

1. There should not be an escape from the pain of the incubator.  All 
new projects must go through the incubator and endure.  Commons sandbox 
was created prior to the incubator.
2. No to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it is a MEGA-list for all of 
Jakarta.  The commons list is horrible and I get enough email.  There is 
no technical advantage to one mega list for all software.  Most problems 
are NOT oversite problems/discussions.
3. -1 to the form of this proposal which seems overly coarse grained or 
not nearly detailed (I'm not sure which)


-Andy

Henri Yandell wrote:



On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Simon Kitching wrote:


On Fri, 2006-04-07 at 16:28 -0700, Martin Cooper wrote:

On 4/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Calling a vote to create a Jakarta Sandbox; which entails:

  * Move Jakarta Commons Sandbox to Jakarta Sandbox
  * Migrate Jakarta Taglibs Sandbox into Jakarta Sandbox
  * Create development mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
  * Create wiki (and migrate wiki bits from j-c-s/j-t-s)
  * Jakarta Sandbox to initially use the Commons sandbox processes.



What would be the constraints on what could go in there? Anything, 
as long

as it's written in or for Java?


And who is expected to subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


Those who want to? :)

I imagine those working on sandbox components at the moment, plus a 
handful of people who tend to subscribe to such lists.


Out of interest - if we take a list with N mails a day, and have 2 
lists with N/2 mails a day, is that something you'd view as more 
painful or the same amount of pain?


I know that when subscribing to Jakarta subprojects I'm not interested 
in as a coder, I subscribe to both the -user and -dev and funnel them 
both into the same folder. For my level of interest it's just 
[EMAIL PROTECTED], not ecs-xxx@ etc. So I'm probably answering more pain 
to the above, but I've got a simple solution that hides the minor pain 
increase.


Hen

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Re: [VOTE] Jakarta Sandbox

2006-04-08 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Henri Yandell wrote:



On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


-1 on these points

1. There should not be an escape from the pain of the incubator.  All 
new projects must go through the incubator and endure.  Commons 
sandbox was created prior to the incubator.


Nope, all new communities must go through the incubator, not all new 
projects (well, components).


So basically if I call my project a component I don't have to go through 
the incubator just YOUR

incubator.

Basically misery loves company so I think if the same sin buys me
purgatory, I'd like to see you there.  Even if you call your project a 
component.




2. No to [EMAIL PROTECTED] if it is a MEGA-list for all of 
Jakarta.  The commons list is horrible and I get enough email.  There 
is no technical advantage to one mega list for all software.  Most 
problems are NOT oversite problems/discussions.


Is it the naming? How about [EMAIL PROTECTED]



clears point 2 but does nothing for one.  The name dev certainly implies 
something that you say you

do not intend.

Are you suggesting that there should be a mailing list per component in 
the sandbox? [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] etc?


dev@ was in Stephen's original proposal on Commons - so not something 
I'm personally tied to. It's not tied to my 'one-community' mantra, 
though I suspect it might appear that way :)




Booo.

3. -1 to the form of this proposal which seems overly coarse grained 
or not nearly detailed (I'm not sure which)


Sounds about right - response so far suggests I need a lot more in the 
proposal - and it's probably better to go with the JLC vote next so the 
sandbox issue would be more obvious (things would be going from Commons 
Sandbox to JLC grouping).




So far that seems like more commons mess.  Thus far I've failed to see 
what makes it not more of the same (aka commons).


-Andy


Hen

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Re: [RESULT] Remove SVN restrictions

2006-04-04 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
My mailserver kicked a disk so I missed the second vote (though as a 
point of procedure I didn't qualify my first vote ;-) ).  I'd like to 
register my -0.  (Its a -1 this sucks but I've decided not to be a 
butt about it)


And -1 in advance to the lets all have one mega list because we don't 
get enough email about the things that are not relevant to us mailing 
list :-)


-Andy


26 +1s.

Daniel F. Savarese
Davanum Srinivas
Dave Brosius
Felipe Leme
Geir Magnusson Jr
Henning Schmiedehausen
Howard Lewis Ship
Luke Beard
Mario Ivankovits
Mark Thomas
Martin van den Bemt
Nathan Bubna
Noel J. Bergman
Oliver Heger
Ortwin Gluck
Rahul Akolkar
Robert Burrell Donkin
Rony G. Flatscher
Sandy McArthur
Sanjiva Weerawarana
Sebastian Bazeley
Simon Kitching
Stefan Bodewig
Stephen Colebourne
Will Glass-Husain
Yoav Shapira


Following this email I'll modify things such that we have the following 
auth groups:


jakarta (union of all jakarta-* groups + tapestry)
jakarta-pmc (remains the same)
jakarta-commons-sandbox (difference of jakarta group and old j-c-s group)
jakarta-poi (remains the same)


Hen

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Re: [VOTE] Remove SVN restrictions

2006-03-27 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

-1.  I prefer the POI SVN to remain seperate.

Henri Yandell wrote:


Vote to remove the SVN barriers within Jakarta such that all jakarta-* 
groups are merged into the one jakarta group with the exception of 
jakarta-hivemind, jakarta-slide, jakarta-cactus and jakarta-jmeter under 
the assumption that they are moving to having their own PMCs. Tapestry 
is already within its own auth group.


[ ] +1
[ ] -1

If your -1 is only for a particular subproject (ie: you don't care what 
the rest of Jakarta does, feel free to say so).


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Re: [VOTE] Remove SVN restrictions

2006-03-27 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
BTW Nick gave the legalistic reason that POI commiters are required to 
swear that they have never been bound by an exclusionary
agreement with Microsoft regarding these file formats.  (He was slightly 
inaccurate in his version as we don't require you to never have SEEN the 
specs because some were/are released publically w/o restriction, we've 
never used the word sign without sign or been bound by as 
employer/member agreements can be binding w/o you signing it)


-andy

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

-1.  I prefer the POI SVN to remain seperate.

Henri Yandell wrote:



Vote to remove the SVN barriers within Jakarta such that all jakarta-* 
groups are merged into the one jakarta group with the exception of 
jakarta-hivemind, jakarta-slide, jakarta-cactus and jakarta-jmeter 
under the assumption that they are moving to having their own PMCs. 
Tapestry is already within its own auth group.


[ ] +1
[ ] -1

If your -1 is only for a particular subproject (ie: you don't care 
what the rest of Jakarta does, feel free to say so).


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Re: adding a link from commons.apache.org to Jakarta Commons?

2006-03-23 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

joke
Hey then there could be a [EMAIL PROTECTED] and ALL commons 
projects across the ASF could be developed on it!  I might even 
subscribe several times in order to load test my mail server ;-)

/joke

-Andy

Henri Yandell wrote:


Now Martin's answer becomes very apt - something to sell across the ASF 
and there will be push back. ie) Good luck.


However, I think it's not a bad idea. commons.apache.org as a Federation 
for the various Commons projects around the ASF - even if I am 
suggesting that J-C and J should start to merge into each other. 
Assuming I'm understanding what you mean by virtual front.


The idea of a top level Commons is too much a disjoint umbrella. It 
doesn't fit into the ASF; but the idea of a federation linking the 
various Commons-like bits together does.


Slightly OT, we had someone email the J-C list very recently about a 
.Net commons, but he's really talking about a semi-automated translation 
of J-C to .Net. Those J-C libraries may not make entire sense on a new 
platform.


Hen

On Thu, 23 Mar 2006, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:


Hmmm. Can we remove the useless blurb at the top and just have
commons.a.o rechartered to be a virtual front for commons.*.a.o?

Sanjiva.

On Thu, 2006-03-23 at 08:43 +0600, Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:


Excellent!

Sanjiva.

On Wed, 2006-03-22 at 19:44 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:


Here you go:

http://commons.apache.org/

Hen

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Henri Yandell wrote:



I'll give it a shot.

A link from commons.apache.org to Jakarta Commons, XML Commons and 
WS Commons

seems pretty fair.

Hen

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006, Martin Cooper wrote:


On 3/13/06, Sandy McArthur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I know Jakarta Commons isn't a TLP but considering the
commons.apache.org space is vacant how about addins a blurb about 
the

Jakarta Commons.




You'd have to sell this idea across the ASF, not just at Jakarta, and
you'll
likely get more than a little push back. That space was also the 
realm of

Apache Commons when it existed.

--
Martin Cooper


It's the convention that you use your domain as your package. The


Jakarta Commons code is in the package org.apache.commons, not
org.apache.jakarta.commons. Also a number of times I've seen s stack
trace and simply reveresed the package name parts and pasted it 
into a

browser in an attempt to find out more about the code.

I'm thinking a blurb at the bottom to the effect of:

hr/
If you came here looking for Java code in the org.apache.commons
packages then go see the a
href=http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/;Apache Jakarta Commons/a
page.

--
Sandy McArthur

He who dares not offend cannot be honest.
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Invitation

2006-03-20 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I get spam from myself all the time.  Guess its karma for proposing 
this: (http://sourceforge.net/projects/superxmailer/) as an Apache 
project one April 1st.


-Andy

Karthik Kumar wrote:

Hi...

I'm extremely sorry for this... Someone was spamming :(

Karthik

On 3/19/06, Jörg Schaible [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


robert burrell donkin wrote:



On Sat, 2006-03-18 at 23:32 -0500, Henri Yandell wrote:


I'm assuming at the moment that this is a case of somebody spoofing
Karthik's address. I doubt the spam is from Karthik - just something


that


snuck through the spamassassin and various other email controls and
happens to be a subscribed address.


looks like we're going to need to think about turning on address
checking sooner or later this year. probably need to think about ways to
allow committers to post from their apache addresses...


My standrad address has definitely been used as spoofed address for
sending spam and I also remember receiving other spam that claimed to be
from some Apache commiters here.

- Jörg


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

2006-03-16 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Ahh, you're American.  You do realize Europeans take like 5 month vacations?

I don't care a whole lot so long as I'm exempted because I commit in 
spurts like once every 2-3 years ;-)


-Andy

Henri Yandell wrote:


Previously I'd suggested that we should be cleaning up inactive 
committers and inactive PMC members - because I'm a bit of a tidy-addict 
sometimes and I enjoy deleting :)


A thread on [EMAIL PROTECTED] convinced me that this was half wrong 
though - we shouldn't be worrying about cleaning up the large list of 
inactive committers, they might come back and that would be great.


However I do still think we should be cleaning up the inactive PMC 
members. The PMC represents the active committers entrusted with 
oversight - so to have inactive committers on there is a detriment to 
its ability to get the job done.


My proposal is that we create a file in SVN in which PMC members can 
list themselves as being active. After 1 month, failure to appear in 
that list will result in removal from the PMC. If it goes well we could 
consider doing it periodically, or just when it feels like the numbers 
are getting out of sync again.


Thoughts?

Hen

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

2006-03-16 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Henri Gomez wrote:


2006/3/16, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 


Ahh, you're American.  You do realize Europeans take like 5 month vacations?
   



Hum, 5 weeks in France

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don't forget the 70 holidays :-)


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Re: Managing communities and emails (was Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components)

2006-03-14 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Hey...  I know what this could be called...  Alexandria

Henri Yandell wrote:



On Wed, 15 Mar 2006, Stephen Colebourne wrote:


Henri Yandell wrote:


A joke turns into something serious ...but I am all with you guys.
As I said: the more I think about it - the more I like the idea!



You've got my +1 :)



But is that what you mean? (+1 is active not passive)



It is what I mean, though it's contextual (is for all of us). In my case 
it's:


If someone were to dig into this and find or create a solution, I would 
actively test it, hassle infra/whomever, throw in ideas and do a little 
coding - but I'm not going to be much use if a large chunk of time to 
code/design is required.


This all sounds like a nice idea, and could potentially solve the 
difficult issues and choices which we seem to be trying to make.


But is it practical? Is there a tool out there that does this? Are 
there one or more people willing to drive this through and make it 
happen in the next three months?


If its possible and is going to happen then we shouldn't do Jakarta 
Language Components. But if this idea isn't going to happen then JLC 
should be created. How will we make the decision?



It's nice to talk - Robert's mentioned the idea in the past so it's good 
to have more brains thinking on the idea; however I wouldn't let it get 
in the way of simpler ideas for dealing with the current state. 
Presuming it involves a large buy in from the foundation - ie) not 
something we could do on our own - I'd factor in 6 months to a year to 
get that large a group moving :)


Hen

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Re: [Jakarta Wiki] Update of OneCommunityProposals by StephenColebourne

2006-03-12 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I'd like to note my opposition.  I don't have the same vision as you do 
and do not wish to be distracted by 100 irrelavant emails a day about 
Commons ABCD.


I'm glad Henri posted that reorganization things were being discussed. 
 I would have preferred that he posted a more detailed message as I 
think others would likely be opposed to such forms of social 
engineering.  Things evolve the way the evolve for a reason.  That POI 
has relatively little to do with Commons-DB is not really a good reason 
to force us to listen to noise/interference.  In radio, you tend to try 
and pick bands that aren't real close together so that you don't overlap 
and trample on each other's bandwidth.  I had to do this with my 
wireless network because my neighbor's stuff kept interferring.  No I 
don't think it would be great if we both shared channel 6 and I don't 
feel like vetting some non-technical irrelevant change by someone who 
wanted to get their API used by more projects (nevermind that it 
performs half as well as the JDK implementation and sucks down 100 other 
dependencies).   And I bet [EMAIL PROTECTED] would be 
REALLY popular...so popular that ALL questions about POI would go to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] with CC to every email address I've ever had and 
appologies for not posting on the list but half the time you can't 
unsubscribe and I really don't want 1 emails a day about stuff I'm 
not using.


If projects share obvious common technical ties then it makes sense, 
otherwise lets let darwin decide rather than radical social engineering.


The PMC should ASK the individual projects if they would like to share a 
common list and set of committers rather than a top down decision 
proposed on a list that most committers don't subscribe to (which might 
indicate...duh...that they don't want to be on a list mostly not about 
their project).  This proposal and any that resemble it are non-starters 
for me.


A lot of this sounds like Commons trying to remake Jakarta in its image. 
 As an alternative why can't commons be top level?  The namespace is 
now free (http://commons.apache.org/).


That is all,

-Andy


Apache Wiki wrote:

Dear Wiki user,

You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on Jakarta Wiki for 
change notification.

The following page has been changed by StephenColebourne:
http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/OneCommunityProposals

The comment on the change is:
Create page for one community proposals

New page:
This document proposes ways that we as Jakarta can move towards becoming one 
community rather than many.

''Note that there is a counter-argument that states that multiple communities 
within Jakarta is fine. However, at present this conflicts with the ASF board 
opinion and legal structure.''

== Mission ==
Jakarta has a less than completely clear mission at the moment. Here is a 
proposed 'mission statement', please feel free to make alternate suggestions:

''Jakarta provides a diverse set of Java-based components which aim to make 
day-to-day development easier. The focus is on reusable, small-scale, 
single-purpose libraries that can be used directly by your application or by 
larger frameworks.''

It would seem appropriate for whatever mission we choose to be on the top of 
the Jakarta home page.

== Maililng lists ==
Jakarta has about 16 current project mailing lists. One is very active 
(commons) and the rest vary from some activity to very little.

Mailing lists are significant as they represent the primary means of 
communication in a project, and thus the primary form of community. Any change 
to mailing list structure needs careful consideration.

The aim of any change is to create better oversight of the mature components.

A 'one community' proposal must provide a technique to reduce the mailing list 
silo effect, where developers are not interested in other lists (and thus other 
parts of the same community).

== Subversion access ==
Jakarta currently gives out SVN access to individual subprojects.

A 'one community' proposal almost certainly involves removing this barrier. Any 
Jakarta committer can thus commit anywhere in Jakarta. Social norms will still 
act as a barrer to undesirable behaviour.

== Subprojects ==
As developers we tend to abstract and form hierarchies naturally. Subprojects 
are a natural outcome of this. However, Jakarta as 'one community' must mean 
the end to the term 'subprojects'.

Instead, a focus on many, many components directly at the Jakarta level is the 
best viewpoint.

== Practicalities ==
The single-level groupings proposal.

Theory - One community split into groups for practicality purposes (everyone 
together would be chaos!)

 * Move all commons proper projects up to the jakarta level in SVN and on the 
website.
 * Commons level infrastructure/pages is dismantled and moved to jakarta-level
 * Agree on 4 to 5 groupings for the current subprojects (this is hard!!! it 
should ideally be driven by the current component owners)
 * The 

Re: Jakarta Sandbox?

2006-03-07 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Personally I think that commons is a bit TOO open.  I'm not sure the 
Java world can suffer another project designed to throw us into circular 
dependency hell.  These little mini-component projects that all depend 
on each other combined with the inherent crappiness of Java classloading 
(.NET does this better) are just misery to those of us who have to work 
with them and support real people using them.  I don't think it is deep 
end shallow end -- it is that these are all interdependent and 
versioned seperately and then end up with different parts of apache 
requiring vers 1 and others requiring 1.1 and 1 having a horrible bug in it.


-andy

Henri Yandell wrote:



On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote:


On 3/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote:


snip/



I hope to help in dealing with roC.



Yep, that's my chief point on the thirty four pieces, not two pieces 
- the
roC still needs solutions. Yet more where we should be thinking about 
our
project (Jakarta) and not just making one step (JLC) and being happy 
with

it.


snap/

I expressed a similar opinion in response to the JLC proposal on
commons-dev. Given that we're in this mess with intermingling threads
on commons-dev@ and general@, forgive me for cross-posting that as a
hyperlink:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-devm=114166343620440w=2



Yep, I agree with your email there.

Sorry for snapping,

Hen

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Re: Jakarta Sandbox?

2006-03-07 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Henri Yandell wrote:



I think there's pretty much wide-spread agreement to the pain of that 
issue, in and out of Commons.


Stephen's suggestion for the JLC ones are that they would not have any 
dependencies (currently they don't).


The 'deep end' stuff tends to depend on these, ie) there will be far 
more roC-JLC dependencies than internal roC dependencies. Also the 
Commons components (JLC especially) maintain backwards compat within 
minor versions (as we all do) so the only times you should be having 
this pain is when Apache Foo depends on vers 1.0 and Apache Bar 
depends on vers 2.0.


Lang (1.x, 2.x) and Collections (1.x, 2.x, 3.x) are the only ones that 
spring to mind that have more than one major version release.


So I'm not sure the issue is as painful as your memory paints it. Now 
when the container depends on commons, that seems to cause more pain 
(cf commons-logging complaints).


No the commons issue is pretty painful in large environments and with 
the wild of live support.  Yes Tomcat's dependence on commons-logging 
is a pain.   I'd feel more comfortable with a single versioned release 
rather than a bunch more pieces that have to be put together.  Let them 
live together and die together. 


-Andy


Hen

On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Personally I think that commons is a bit TOO open.  I'm not sure the 
Java world can suffer another project designed to throw us into 
circular dependency hell.  These little mini-component projects that 
all depend on each other combined with the inherent crappiness of 
Java classloading (.NET does this better) are just misery to those of 
us who have to work with them and support real people using them.  I 
don't think it is deep end shallow end -- it is that these are 
all interdependent and versioned seperately and then end up with 
different parts of apache requiring vers 1 and others requiring 1.1 
and 1 having a horrible bug in it.


-andy

Henri Yandell wrote:




On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote:


On 3/7/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



On Tue, 7 Mar 2006, Rahul Akolkar wrote:


snip/



I hope to help in dealing with roC.




Yep, that's my chief point on the thirty four pieces, not two 
pieces - the
roC still needs solutions. Yet more where we should be thinking 
about our
project (Jakarta) and not just making one step (JLC) and being 
happy with

it.


snap/

I expressed a similar opinion in response to the JLC proposal on
commons-dev. Given that we're in this mess with intermingling threads
on commons-dev@ and general@, forgive me for cross-posting that as a
hyperlink:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-commons-devm=114166343620440w=2 





Yep, I agree with your email there.

Sorry for snapping,

Hen

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta Language Components

2006-03-07 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Stephen Colebourne wrote:

Reposted (edited) from original commons proposal.
Currently this proposal has general, though not unanimous, support.
A vote thread may follow this thread if the mood remains positive.



...


Jakarta Language Components will:
- develop multiple independent components


I will vote -1 based soley on item 1 of the list for the reasons I've 
already explained.  I think that having ANOTHER jak-commons is a 
fundementally bad idea.  If these are truly enahancements to JavaSE, 
they are one community, and share a mailinglist...then make them one 
distribution and version them together.



- each component will have no dependencies
- each component will have no configuration
- each component provides an extension to the JavaSE
- code judged by would it be out of place in the JavaSE
- a component typically has a broad API (many callable methods)
- each method typically does relatively little processing
- have mailing lists (language-user/language-dev)
- not have a sandbox
- use [EMAIL PROTECTED] ML (new) for cross group issues

Stephen

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-Andy


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Re: Differences

2004-01-14 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Approach.  

Use struts if you're using JSP
Use Tapestry if you want to attach logic with div tags
As for turbineCheshire cat grin...a lot of people use it with velocity.
Use Cocoon is you live breathe and die XML and don't mind the extreme joy
that comes from writing web pages in XSLT with its user friendly regular
expression-like syntax


Yes struts can use things that aren't JSP but is not OPTIMAL for that.
Tapestry is well pretty different (I make no bones that I like it best for
webapps)
Turbine ...Cheshire cat grin
Cocoon can theoretically be a toaster if you configure it right, but has the
largest learning curve of the 4.

I understand why you came here to ask this, but its not really a good place
to ask (its more of an administrative list).  You'd be better going and
asking each of the projects (who will probably send you links to their
website).  Generally these messages devolve into flamebait because each
project feels very passionate about their approach (enough to devote real
time to developing it in fact) so asking them all in a room together what's
the difference is well...often not pretty.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Thiago Souza [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2004 04:53:52 -0300
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Differences
 
 Hi ppl,
 
 
   What's the main difference between Struts, Tapestry and Turbine?
 
 
 Thanks in advance!
 Thiago Souza
 


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Just in case you're curious

2004-01-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Everything is back on the private list again.  Odd to discuss including more
people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion.
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2004-01-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Dude...three words:  switch to decaf ;-)

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 05:04:32 +0900
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status
 
 On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:27:30 -0500
 Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS.
 (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)!
 You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less.  Yes.
 
 Obvious. HTTPD (Apache HTTP WebServer Project) does not
 have *general* list. That's all.
 
 # Jakarta should have it's own way, i hope. If Jakarta can't have such,
 # the board would be *wrong* ... that's all.
 
 
 Size matters.  This is obviously not feasible for Jakarta as we are
 demonstrating so aptly.
 
 Wow, Great. Size matter? Could you please describe the committer*ness*
 @ http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
 ?? ... more ?? ;-)
 
 Can you describe the all the committers/PMC members@
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html
 , by the way? ;-)
 
 You/I can see the difference. Yep. This is the root of the evil.
 This *MUST* be fixed.
 I'd like to see the jakarta XXX PMC groups to be organized into
 subgroups realms. Jakarta has it's own brand. You can have either
 Jakarta POI or Apache POI, i guess... subsets of the group.
 .. thus would be integrated into the jakarta PMC in the near future.
 This is essentially the formalization of how it is of course.
 
 Okeydokey
 
 Suffices. APR/HTTPD guys would be gratified, i hope.
 Could you please explain why the discussion lasts forever?
 First, we're trying too many people come to a consensus on a non-technical
 issue.  Second, because we're trying to over-manage and uber-manage things.
 
 Yes, i know that non-technical issue should be open.
 
 It will only get worse.  It would be even worse if it were in private.
 
 I can not trust you ;-) . (joke) so I do not make such an issue
 to be in private :-) // nothing to be got worse
 
 My point was merely to point out the puppet strings, not to join the
 puppets.  ;-)
 
 Puppet? Andy? ... are you puppet? ... of what?
 
 I am sure that you are *far from* the puppet of XYZ ..
 ... as you are the puppet of the united states :-).
 
 I am sure that you guys are wrong about the interpretations
 of the comments from the board members. I'd like to see the
 board members opinions here @ [EMAIL PROTECTED], directly.
 
 ... Critical issue... maybe ... D'OH
 
 We, Jakarta-n, should *not* be humiliated by the BOARD members ;-)
 I'd like to have the opinions from board members directly here.
 This might improve the PMCness of the Jakarta, i hope.
 
 --
 
 I'd like to know why the PMC list @ jakarta *WAS* full of disputes
 over the TLP-ness of XYZ ... Andy, could you please explain this more?
 
 Thanks, godness
 
 
 
 -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 
 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
If I were the chair of the Jakarta PMC and a board member and favored seeing
Jakarta split up into TLPs, I'd do this:

1. Put everyone on the PMC
2. Get them in a reorganization type discussion

Because the bulk of the 700? committers at Apache are in Jakarta and the
bulk of the discussion has no technical basis whatsoever to guide it, it
would eventually get frustrating and the participants would come to the
inevitable conclusion to which I wanted to guide them: Jakarta is
unsustainable.  Once the deed was done I could even step aside and watch it
burn.

However, if that were not my position and I were that same person, I'd guide
them to a middle ground where Jakarta was more of an administrative body
which handles Pan-Jakarta issues and each project had its own PMC
responsible for its own issues (releases,etc).  This would of course achieve
much the same thing as TLPs without all of the constitutional
convention-like discussion which will inevitably move to the meaning of
democracy, meritocracy and finally to some kind of equation to Hitler or
Nazism. (http://cbbrowne.com/info/godwin.html,
http://www.eff.org/Net_culture/Folklore/Humor/godwins.law)

The first would of course assume that I favored indirect manipulation as
opposed to just stating my viewpoint.
http://www.intertwingly.net/blog/946.html

This isn't intended to really contribute to the discussion since I doubt I
can change its inevitable path at this point.  It is only to provide me with
the empty satisfaction of saying I told you so later. ;-)

Have fun.  I'm mostly skimming now.  Someone let me know if I miss anything
that actually requires my attention.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS.
 (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)!


You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less.  Yes.

Size matters.  This is obviously not feasible for Jakarta as we are
demonstrating so aptly.
 
 You/I can see the difference. Yep. This is the root of the evil.
 This *MUST* be fixed.
 
 I'd like to see the jakarta XXX PMC groups to be organized into
 subgroups realms. Jakarta has it's own brand. You can have either
 Jakarta POI or Apache POI, i guess... subsets of the group.
 .. thus would be integrated into the jakarta PMC in the near future.


This is essentially the formalization of how it is of course.
 
 Suffices. APR/HTTPD guys would be gratified, i hope.
 
 Could you please explain why the discussion lasts forever?


First, we're trying too many people come to a consensus on a non-technical
issue.  Second, because we're trying to over-manage and uber-manage things.

It will only get worse.  It would be even worse if it were in private.

My point was merely to point out the puppet strings, not to join the
puppets.  ;-)

-Andy

 
 -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 
 
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-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk
 about
 open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.
 
 
 And you know there's a difference.  :)
 

Not to me.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk
 about
 open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.
 
 
 And you know there's a difference.  :)
 
 What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive?  The
 recipe
 to the secret Jakarta Eggnog?  I thought Jon took that with him...  I
 think
 it is:
 
 Lots of expensive Bze
 Cheap store-bought eggnog
 
 There... Impeach me.  I've divulged the state secrets.
 
 
 -Andy
 
 
 That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
 in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we
 discuss
 something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
 to be on Google.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 -- 
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?
 
 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are
 almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or
 its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree
 with
 everything espoused in the above email.
 
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
YES! -- And members, and board, and incubator, and

Move it into the open.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Aaron Bannert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:11:02 -0800
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
 public?
 
 Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should
 be happening on public dev lists?
 
 -aaron
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect.
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: mvdb.com
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
 If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
 that PMC.
 
 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Now the conversation is here, that is the solution.  You're welcome.
 
 -Andy
 
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
 to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
 
 geir

Heads up,

FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be
voting/discussing here.

While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for:

* PMC nominations/discussion
* legally precarious issues
* things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted.  I favor openness, but
the peanut gallery isn't helpful.

Pointedly,

I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I will discuss it here.  This is my personal choice.  I choose to
work in the open.  I choose to be googled.  I volunteered for it in fact.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
 escribió:
 
 
 
 On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
 escribió:
 
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
 up
 until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
 board
 etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear
 on
 the
 board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
 
 
 I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
 
 When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
 
 Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
 
 I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
 batch
 vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
 
 
 This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
 
 I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
 to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
 

While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet committers.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:
 
 
 BIG SNIP
 
 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
  list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
 /end Geir 
 
 What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
 This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
 ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
 
 There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are considered
 a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.
 
 If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
 included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive
 
 because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our
 act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
 as a group.
 
 IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
 things clear and non-confusing.
 
 
 For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
 will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
 
 What do I mean by that:
 ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
 commit the code to do it.
 
 ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
 Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out
 roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
 commiters, but does not committ itself?.
 What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
 code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
 The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
 have they CVSed latelly.
 
 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
 
 Please re-read.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-)
 (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti)

Andrew means Strong and Manly.  Fairly gender specific.

http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Andrew.htm

I like this:


Origin: Shakespearean
Meaning: 'Twelfth Night', also called 'What You Will' Sir Andrew Aguecheek.


Though I like to think of myself more as Feste albeit my girth gives more
truth to the former.  ;-)

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:16:44 +0900
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 +
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want
 to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant.
 +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) !
 
 It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-)
 (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti)
 
 -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 
 
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Re: PMC membership : I fear additional responsibility

2003-12-21 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 Yep :)  That's the interesting part here, and breaking the Jakarta up
 doesn't solve it - it just pushes the problem upwards to the board.

+1
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about
open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.

What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive?  The recipe
to the secret Jakarta Eggnog?  I thought Jon took that with him...  I think
it is:

Lots of expensive Bze
Cheap store-bought eggnog

There... Impeach me.  I've divulged the state secrets.


-Andy

 
 That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
 in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we discuss
 something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
 to be on Google.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.



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Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Radical view: allow the subprojects to send 1-2 delegates to the PMC and
require each subproject to send one or die.  This would size the PMC, assure
that heart attack in the crowd syndrome doesn't take place and make the
discussion more manageable.  Have the sub projects manage their own policy
for who to send and for how long under threat of being closed.  This also
prevents PMC for life syndrome and makes sure that the PMC serves not only
the boards interests but the committers of the projects.  It also puts
pressure on PMC members to keep discussions public.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Craig R. McClanahan [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Thu, 18 Dec 2003 22:26:44 -0800
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harish Krishnaswamy
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?
 
 Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 
 Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta
 and how it got to where
 it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?
 
 -Harish
 
 
 These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be) colored by my own
 personal experiences during the development of Jakarta -- including my
 ignorance of a lot of the details in subprojects that I'm not an active
 participant.  But it should give you a little feel for the history of the
 place.
 
 The gist of the creation of Jakarta was around three facts:
 
 * Apache wasn't an incorporated entity (this is about
 four years ago now), but wanted to be -- and was
 formally becoming the Apache Software Foundation.
 
 * Apache had a project to build a servlet container
 (Apache JServ) at a website called java.apache.org
 which created a trademark-use issue around java.
 (I was a committer on Apache JServ, which is how I
 originally got involved in open source software.)
 
 * Sun wanted to contribute, and Apache wanted to accept,
 the source code for the servlet and JSP implementation
 called the Java Servlet Development Kit, and later
 published by Apache as Tomcat 3.0.
 
 Just as an item of slight historical interest, Jakarta was the name of the
 conference room at Sun where a lot of the early discussions took place.
 
 An organizational framework to focus on developing open source server side
 Java
 stuff was created to host these initiatives, and other related subprojects
 got
 proposed and added to the mix.  As the number of Jakarta committers scaled
 from
 the original 10 or so to where we are today (hundreds), the original charter
 has
 become, umm, somewhat stretched.
 
 Ironically, it didn't take long at all for the scope of that original charter
 to
 get exceeded, because one of the little nuggets of code that was included in
 the
 original Tomcat contribution was a pure-Java build tool (to replace make)
 called Ant ...
 
 As more and more subprojects were added, there were some inevitable cases of
 overlapping scope, and overlapping implementations of the same ideas.  One of
 the best things we've done (IMHO) was purposely creating a subproject
 (jakarta-commons) focused on making small, focused, reusable packages, and
 encouraging the larger projects to use them.  Not only has this been
 successful
 within Jakarta -- there's been quite a lot of cross-fertilization among the
 web
 app frameworks, for example -- it's also created a fairly rich library of
 funcational packages that are widely used elsewhere.  But one could really
 argue whether something like Commons Digester (originally designed as an
 easy-to-use tool to parse XML configuration files) really fit the Jakarta
 charter.
 
 Over time, there have been more than a few, err, voluminous discussions
 about
 how to scale up Jakarta from an organizational perspective, and whether the
 fundamental organizing principle was still the correct one.  Does a focus on
 server side stuff exclude what could be some really interesting open source
 projects?  Does a focus on Java make sense when just across the website there
 are things like xml.apache.org that are focused on a technology, not on an
 implementation language?  Does it make sense to have community type projects
 that host individual software package projects at all?
 
 Coupled with these increasing concerns (at the ASF board level) about the
 ability of any oversight group (a responsibility delegated to PMCs in the ASF
 organizational structure), several original Jakarta subprojects (or even
 sub-sub-projects in some cases

Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
public?
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST)
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 subjects have been:
 
 how the PMC should work
 organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so
 far]
 how to ensure oversight of jakarta
 general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
  social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
  [it shouldn't seems the end result here]
 how to get more CLA's signed by committers
 log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
 whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a
 bit
 
 Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
 this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
 thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
 at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
 did anyway.
 
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 Hen
 
 On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.
 --
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?
 
 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
 everything espoused in the above email.
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 

Isn't everything you disagree with?

 I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
 are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
 of the things that are concerning us.


Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)


Glad you caught that.

-Andy
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 
 
 Isn't everything you disagree with?
 
 You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
 something.  That's commonly known as FUD.


I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?


I'm not sure you do.
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 

Ironic.

 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.


Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
isn't always convenient.
 
-Andy

 geir
 
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
 about
 the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Remember what you said.  You said that decisions were being made in
 private.


Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too.  Damn those hallucinations.
I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything.
 
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should
 we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's
 just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?
 
 
 I'm not sure you do.
 
 But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is
 you making things up.


No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself
with this conversation.  I shall give you the honor of the last word.

-Andy
 
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem,
 especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 
 
 Ironic.
 
 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
 
 
 Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place
 here.
 No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
 isn't always convenient.
 
 And thinking things through isn't either.  But sometimes it must be
 done.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Just in case you're curious

2003-12-17 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now. 
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

2003-12-06 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 12/5/03 2:45 AM, Martin Poeschl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the
 Turbiners really care about it.
 
 it is indirectly used by turbine ... that's why the discussion started ...
 it is used by torque, ojb, hibernate, 
 ok, they are all db related .. but i still do not think jcs is db related ..


I think Hibernate is switching to Jgroups anyhow.
 
 Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get
 flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service.
  
 
 please go to the jcs site and RTFM


Been there.  That¹s why I asked the question.
  
 
 As far as oversight, who on the PMC is on this sub-sub-subproject?
 
 i am


So where do you want it to land?  Where do you feel it should go in the mean
time.

 we should only support sub-sub project if there is a strong relation to
 the sub-project ... e.g turbine-fulcrum (avalon components for turbine)


However, I regard that as more than likely just a component of Turbine.
More than likely the community is more or less the same.
 
 -Andy
 
 * before it is mentioned, on POI we call POIFS and HSSF subprojects but
 they're really just components.  They're called subprojects by tradition,
 granted it is ambiguous but I'll leave language pedantry to RMS. ;-)
  
 
 what is the definition of a sub-sub project??


Community/technical division.  The difference between POI and HTTPD only at
a lower level.  There aren't any shared committers between POI and HTTPD.
POI isn't required for HTTPD and HTTPD isn't required for POI and if POI
were housed as part of HTTPD or HTTPD part of POI it wouldn't make a great
deal of sense.  This is an exaggeration of course but you get the idea.

-Andy
 
 martin
 
 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

2003-12-06 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
You're kind of being excessively abrasive especially given that I'm just
trying to understand the problem as a responsible PMC member.  Given that
I'm trying to find out about the subject despite having no ties to Turbine
or JCS, I'd expect a little less of an obnoxious response.  This post
certainly doesn't make me want to volunteer to understand the matter or work
towards its resolution.

On 12/5/03 1:06 AM, Henning Schmiedehausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 23:35, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the
 Turbiners really care about it.  Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get
 flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service.
 
 +--+
 |  Don't   |
 | feed the |
 |  Troll!  |
 +--+
||
||
||
 /  \__
 
 Come on Andrew, even you can do better than that!
 
 Obviously you haven't read s single article in this thread, did you?.
 JCS is neither a Turbine Service, nor is it used by Turbine at all.
 The fact that it has been developed under the Turbine label, well it
 just happened. But JCS neither depends on Turbine nor the other way
 round. So IMHO it is time to move this (IMHO quite decent) project to a
 place where it gets much more attention.
 
 Regards
 Henning

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

2003-12-05 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
So far it sounds to me like JCS is only used by Turbine and that only the
Turbiners really care about it.  Thus I don't see why it doesn't just get
flattened into Turbine and just consider it one more turbine service.
However, if it DOES have a community or at the very least someone who loves
cares and feeds it, then commons sounds like a reasonable place to build a
community. 

As far as oversight, who on the PMC is on this sub-sub-subproject?

From a Jakarta PMC perspective, I think that we should cease to support
Sub-sub-projects with the exception of commons.*

-Andy

* before it is mentioned, on POI we call POIFS and HSSF subprojects but
they're really just components.  They're called subprojects by tradition,
granted it is ambiguous but I'll leave language pedantry to RMS. ;-)

On 12/4/03 12:59 PM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 So your preference, as the development-community of JCS, is for a
 top-level-jakarta project, ie) at the log4j level?
 
 If so, we can take that up with the PMC and see what views there are. As
 the development community, your (and James) views count a lot, though the
 smallness of community is the worrying thing.
 
 Hen
 
 On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Aaron Smuts wrote:
 
 The core of JCS is ready for a release.
 
 The project is basically a hub for 4 types of plugins, or what are
 called auxiliaries in JCS: memory, disk, lateral distribution, and
 remote sever.  It requires that you use a memory plugin, but the others
 are optional.
 
 For each type of plugin there is an efficient implementation that people
 are using.  These include: LRU memory manager, indexed disk cache, TCp
 lateral distribution, and RMI remote server.
 
 There are experimental versions of each type of plugin in an
 experimental source directory: a b-tree disk cache, a database disk
 cache, a javagroups lateral, a MRU memory manager, and others.
 
 The core of JCS is then the hub and these 4 non-experimental plugins.
 Currently there is only one small bug in the lateral cache recovery
 process, that I will fix very soon.
 
 There are additional features that are mostly extensions of the plugins.
 I wanted to clean up the group handling features, but this is not
 crucial.  I wanted to add run time defragmentation to the indexed disk
 cache.  I also want to implement clustering on the remote server.
 Basically, this will involve hooking up remote servers via the TCP
 lateral cache.  All that has to be done is to work out a way to prevent
 circular calls for there to be clustering.  The client can already fail
 over.
 
 I'm not sure what all the levels are called, but if we put JCS at the
 level of log4j, I guess as a jakarta subproject, and then issue a
 release, we can find out what else people might want and some more
 people may be interested in contributing.
 
 JCS does not need an overhaul or any significant amount of work on the
 core features.  Most conceivable future development will involve tuning,
 bug fixes, improving configuration, creating sample applications, and
 extension development.
 
 Aaron
 
 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-12-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 I say
 that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community builder and if he
 wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores me personally,
 I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
 Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do so; however, if
 his approach is different enough to warrant its own show then I encourage
 him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.
 
 
 Personally - I'm interested in getting some feedback from Howard on a
 number of question I've posted to him on this list and remain hopeful
 that he or other members of the HiveMind team will leverage the pool of
 opinions and talent over on Avalon - as a mutually interesting exercise
 (just as members of that same pools are interested in leveraging the
 content and knowlege from the HiveMind team).  As far as I can se the
 question of collaboration remains completely open - after all - no
 discussion has taken place todate either here on over on avalon.
 
 I think  it would be good to at least do some exploration of mutual
 interests - don't you?


I feel a Jon coming on.  Your itch not mine -- However, after your private
rants to (at?) me I kind of doubt how genuine this much more eloquent email
is.  In truth, a rather virgin Hivemind would (ironically considering the
name) be consumed by Avalon rather than affecting Avalon.  You may find
emailing me personally to be rather disappointing as I say pretty much the
same things though sometimes more succinctly.  Personally, I feel your
effort is more likely intent to prevent an alternative to Avalon.

I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard
is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say.  I see
no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and
build a community. 

I do however apologize for attributing the email containing the following
statement to you.  It was actually from Danny Angus, however the sentiment
appears to coincide with yours wouldn't you agree?

The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
If you see what I mean.

The truth is that the Avalon brand is nothing to be sought while Jakarta
is.  Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community
more difficult.  While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon
either.  I would be against its entry into Jakarta ATM (and I doubt Howard
would propose it).  However, I think it is ripe for foundry at jakarta
commons or some place appropriate for starting a community.  Obviously it
should be watched for eventual entry as a Jakarta project.  Howard is
obviously now qualified to sponsor it in the incubator himself (as I've
pretty much vowed never to incubate anything ever again, I'd rather focus my
efforts outside of Apache than go through that quagmire of bureaucratic
procedure again**).

I do not see a reason while my stating this creates the level of personal
angst for you that it more obviously did in your private mails to me nor do
I see the need for the duplicity of posting a more frank and angry mail to
me followed by one also on the list.  I really don't have time for two
threads and am rather conceptually against the idea.  Though I suppose I
could combine my replies on-list if you prefer.

-Andy

** Although what a certain person did to avoid it was wrong although I can't
say anything about it as I don't think it was on the public list although it
damn well should have been.
 
 Stephen.
 
 
 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-12-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 11/30/03 11:56 PM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Andrew:
 
 Why don't you just get to the issue.  You chose to piss on project your
 not involved with, not interested in, and not even tracking.  From this
 position, you chose to criticise both the project and me personally.
 Presumably you did this for some reason that you feel is justified.  I
 think you choice of phrase could have much more creative, yes, even
 constructive. 
 
 Not withstanding, let's not fall back on Howard as the standing excuse!
 
 
 So get to the point - explain to me why you fell Avalon is so threatening.



Perhaps you missed that part of my message.  I'll repeat the most important
parts of it for your convenience:


I prefer to see Hivemind established as a community (as far as I know Howard
is the only member of the community ATM) before exploring as you say.  I see
no reason to deprive Howard of the opportunity to establish Hivemind and
build a community. 

and


The truth is that the Avalon brand is nothing to be sought while Jakarta
is.  Being consumed by Avalon will, of course, make building a community
more difficult.  While Hivemind is a virgin idea that needs community
building, and is not ready for Jakarta -- it is surely not ready for Avalon
either.


As for you, I find your need to hold a dual personal discussion distasteful
if not duplicitous as I stated already and this is the reason I feel
justified in questioning your intentions.  Perhaps you can offer guidance on
why my feelings on this matter were not clear enough?  Feel free to mail
them to the list rather than to me personally.  I monitor the
[EMAIL PROTECTED] list fairly regularly and thus you can be assured that I'll
see it.

Thus the intended content of my original message is unchanged:

1. Howard should be encouraged to found the HiveMind community as he sees
fit within the normal social boundries (he's not getting a jakarta
subproject until its ready and he'll be forced into the incubator quagmire
to get there until enough people realize the incubator is a bad idea)
2. HiveMind should not be forced to combine with Avalon
3. Avalon should not be forced to be subservient to HiveMind
4. Live and let live
5. communication regarding Jakarta should be open and on the lists

I thought it was pretty clear from the start, but I guess I failed to
communicate it clearly enough.

-Andy
 
 Stephen.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

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For Java and Excel, Got POI?

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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-12-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 12/1/03 2:02 AM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 End of discussion.
 
 

Excellent.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

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For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-12-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 12/1/03 2:47 AM, Stephen McConnell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I thought you ended our discussion?  Okay I guess not.  My point continues
to be that I don't think Howard should be forced and that if HiveMind builds
a community, it is perfectly welcome here regardless of cooperation with
Avalon.  Avalon has no stranglehold on frameworks.

If you agree with me then why is this so emotional to you?  Nevermind, lets
end this, you get the last word.  ;-)

-Andy

 
 
 Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 Perhaps you missed that part of my message.
 
 No - I didn't miss anything.
 
 What you could do is try to add some rationalization around your
 arguments instead of making negative assertions about a project
 you are not involved with and are not interested in.
 
 The rest of your email is snipped because it is simply diverging
 from the real question concerning potential.  It seems to me your
 trying to derail that potential.  Well, sorry, I'm not going to be
 derailed.  I have genuine interests in what happens here and I would
 like to hear from Howard about what he wants and what he thinks the
 potential synergy could play out with mutual benefit.
 
 Stephen.
 
 
 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

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For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework / status

2003-11-26 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Ear is better, mostly itches now.  Don't think I blew the drum as I can hear
fine.  However I now have a cold too. :-(

-Andy

On 11/26/03 8:03 AM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm trying to track down that myself. I need to give my friends at WebCT a
 call, to see where they
 are with the software grant. Between that, ApacheCon, a bad cold (how's that
 ear, Andy?) and the
 9-to-5 (oh, and painters in my house) I'm falling a little behind.
 
 --
 Howard M. Lewis Ship
 Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
 http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
 http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
 http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Tim O'Brien [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 10:29 PM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework
 
 
 +1 - there is room enough.
 
 On a related note, what is the current status of HiveMind?
 the site is 
 still blanked out in Commons.  Could someone please update
 general as to 
 the current situation re: HiveMind?
 
 Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 I don't think that Avalon has any right to have a stranglehold on all
 service frameworks.  I also must say that I hate the come
 discuss this in
 'our' house approach to collaboration.   One size does not
 fit all and
 Avalon has shown over the years that this is especially true
 for it.  I say
 that Howard Lewis Ship is a skilled coder and community
 builder and if he
 wants to give it a try with HiveMind, while the topic bores
 me personally,
 I'll give him my support.  If he does want to collaborate with the
 Avalonites (Avaloners?) then he should be encouraged to do
 so; however, if
 his approach is different enough to warrant its own show
 then I encourage
 him to do that as well.  I trust his judgment to that effect.
 
 We have Struts, Turbine, and Avalon.  We have Velocity, JSP,
 XSLT, etc.  We
 have commons digester and XMLBeans...  None are preferred
 and BTW Avalon
 isn't even preferred as Tomcat, for instance, doesn't use it.
 
 To suggest that there can be only one true service
 framework is misguided,
 IMHO.
 
 -Andy
 
 On 11/18/03 12:49 AM, Stephen McConnell
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  
 
 Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:

 
 I'm moniroting the avalon dev list.
  
 
 Howard:
 
 As mentioned earlier there are some things that would be
 interesting to
 discuss over on the avalon dev list.  Perhaps you could put
 forward you
 thoughts about the potential or lack thereoff on
 collaboration.  I think
 some good points have already been put on the table for
 working together
 and for working apart - but just at the moment these
 thoughts are only
 on the table and no real discussion is happening as a
 result.  I think
 that could change if we were to go beyond mutual monotoring.
 
 Cheers, Steve.
 
 
 

 
 --
 Howard M. Lewis Ship
 Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
 http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
 http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/sandbox/hivemind/
 http://javatapestry.blogspot.com
 
 
  
 
 -Original Message-
 From: news [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
 Stephen McConnell
 Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:10 PM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework
 
 
 
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 

 
 I've put up a limited copy of the HiveMind documentation on
  
 
 my personal home page:
 
 Howard:
 
 Are you open to the idea of discussing some mutual areas
 of interest?
 
 There are a number of aspects of the work you are doing that are
 complimentary with the work on-going in Avalon, and
 several areas in
 Avalon which after review your material are complimentary
 with your own
 efforts.  Can I get you to sign up to the avalon dev list
 bacause I
 would very much like to discuss this further together with
 other members
 of the Avalon crew.
 
 Details for the Avalon dev list are available at the
 following URL:
 

 
   http://avalon.apache.org/mailing-lists.html
 
 I'm looking forward to hearing from you.
 
 Cheers, Stephen.
 
 
 
 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

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For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views

Re: mail2.html - mail.html

2003-07-20 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Presently they give up reading it and email me personally.

-Andy

On 7/20/03 11:57 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 The nice thing about the current approach is that you can't get to see
 the links w/o having to have read enough of the first page to
 understand that you have to click through to the next page.
 
 Otherwise, people will just skip down until they find what they want
 and then have missed what is some good prelim info for our community.
 It's not much of a burden on people, as once you've done it, you just
 know to skip to bottom and go to the mail for new lists...
 
 geir
 
 On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
 
 On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400
 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't
 advise
 changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't
 fix
 it.
 Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :)
 
 I know this and the purpose.
 
 Alternatively,
 
 e.g.-site/mail.html
 GUIDELINE(#guideline)
 
 (brief description)
 .
 Tomcat
  User List
  SubscribeUnsubscribe   ArchiveGuideline(jump to
 #guideline)
  Dev List
  SubscribeUnsubscribe   ArchiveGuideline
 ..
 
 
 This might be enough, I think.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 
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HELP WANTED or The merge is on! HSSF- now with improvedperformance for your pleasure!

2003-07-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 of parallel arrays.
These arrays are sized as needed.

private final static int DEFAULT_ROWS=1;
private final static int DEFAULT_COLS=256;
List celltype = null; //array of HSSFCEll.CELL_TYPE_XXX tells us which
  //arrays to use
List xfs  = null; // array of style types.  Index of XF record
List numericcells = null; // numeric and Shared string indicies.
  // list of lists
List formulaptgs = null;  // array of arrays of PTGS
List stringvals = null;   // array of actual string/formula string vals
IntList populatedRows = null;  //indicies of populated rows
int physCells; //physical number of cells

The algorythm is kind of complicated...but it goes like this:

Insert cell:

If (cell.rownum  celltype.size()) {
 add the row number to populatedRows
 grow celltype, xfs, numericcells, formulaptgs,stringvals by 1.
 (each are a List of ArrayList, IntList or DoubleList with a length ==
number of rows)
}

 ctRow = The list at element rownum of the cell to insert from celltype
 xfRow = The list at element rownum of the cell to insert from xfs

If (cell.colnum  ctRow.size()) {
 grow ctRow, xfRow to size of cell.colnum +1
}
 
If its a number:

 nmRow = numericcells.get(cell.rownum);
//(nmRow is a DoubleList)
 nmRow.set(cell.colnum, cell.value);

If its a string:

 nmRow = numericcells.get(cell.rownum);
//(nmRow is a DoubleList)
 nmRow.set(cell.colnum, cell.lablesstindex);
 
If its a formula:

 value goes in numericcells
 string value goes in stringvals
 ptgs go in formulaptgs

Note that I've also cleaned up the boarder largely between the model and
usermodel as a side effect!

The great thing is the nastiness is kept in VRA because outside you use the
iterator (in VRA) which knows how to traverse this.  You can also user
getters and setters of course which also know how..

By my benchmarks and those of others show this is not only more efficient
with memory but is on average much faster.  I also think that once stage 2
happens we'll REALLY fly because the garbage collector will be out of our
way.

I've also recently acquired more professional grade profilers which I'll use
once the unit tests pass.

I suggest the HSSFTests as the place to start (encapsulates most of the
basic functionality and then some into a test suite).

Please pipe up with your thoughts or suggestions.  And if you are a lurker
wanting to get involved this is the best time/place.  We have a very clear
objective, and its often easier to learn in a debugger with a big red bar of
a unit test result than staring at the code wondering what you should do.

Thanks,

-Andy

cc: general just in case any volunteers are interested.
cc: I'll blog this too ;-)
-- 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
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Re: http://www.apache.org/foundation/projects.html

2003-07-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
POI is absolutely server side.  It has some uses on the client but the whole
design is aimed at the servlet stream.  Otherwise it would be based on
java.io.File

-andy


On 7/18/03 8:46 PM, Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 http://www.apache.org/foundation/projects.html
 
 ...
 
 Jakarta = Server-side Java
 
 monologue
 I did not know that Jakarta-Poi is server-side java based product :D
 /monologue
 
 -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 P.S. Rather, Java based total solution in Apache.Org or Jakarta is an
 umbrella for Java related Apache integration efforts might be
 preferable. Any thoughts?
 
 
 
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
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Re: Apache != HTTPD

2003-07-17 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/17/03 2:04 PM, Alex McLintock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I have another related problem
 
 Recruitment Agent: Have you done Struts?
 Me: Yes I have done some Struts. I can point you at websites I have built
 with Apache Struts.
 Agent: Is that the same as Jakarta Struts?
 Me: explanation of the ASF and its projects
 
 I think this whole Jakarta brand has backfired and is diluting the Apache
 name.
 
 But few people seem to care about the ASF's professional image
 
 Alex



On POI we've been discussing (on occasion) a new top level project called
fileformats (or something like that) and things like POI and other things
that will evolve around manipulating file formats could go there.

-Andy
 
 
 
 Available for java/perl/C++/web development in London, UK or nearby.
 Apache FOP, Cocoon, Turbine, Struts,XSL:FO, XML, Tomcat, JSP
 http://www.OWAL.co.uk/
 
 
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project

2003-07-14 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 crosspollination, as these kind of people
 will see beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
 of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
 people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
 but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
 
 The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
 crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
 impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
 both the original doc and the translations in sync.
 
 Any ideas?
 
 Regards
 --
 Santiago Gala
 High Sierra Technology, S.L. (http://hisitech.com)
 http://memojo.com?page=SantiagoGalaBlog
 
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization project

2003-07-14 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
In my plan this gets delayed until Tetsuya qualifies for membership ;-)

-Andy

On 7/14/03 4:37 PM, robert burrell donkin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 i personally think that this is an issue that needs to be discussed both
 inside and outside.
 
 andrew is right there needs to be a discussion involving anyone outside
 apache with opinions and experience they'd be willing to contribute but i
 also agree with taking part of the discussion to [EMAIL PROTECTED] not
 only do the issues raised cut across projects but also unless some members
 step up and offer leadership, this project will never get off the ground.
 
 - robert
 
 On Monday, July 14, 2003, at 02:50 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 -1 this would exclude possible interested international folks.  We should
 keep the discussion on a list open to everyone!
 
 On 7/14/03 2:21 AM, Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 On the Jakarta General list, we've been discussing the possibility of
 introducing an Internationalization project into incubation.  It seems
 the
 consensus is that it should be targeted for a top-level
 programming-language-independent and spoken-language-independent Apache
 project, rather a Jakarta subproject.
 
 (To anyone on the JG list: I used a blind CC so that this is the only
 message
 on [EMAIL PROTECTED] which should be CCd to JG.  You can set up
 message
 filters on [i18n] on both lists to follow the discussions in either
 place)
 
 A preliminary organization of the project based on the JG discussions is
 included in my message below.
 
 I don't mind spearheading the incubation myself.  Is there anyone else
 interested whom we can add to the list of contributors (see A through F
 below)?  Is there anything else we should consider before requesting
 entry
 into incubation?
 
 TIA.
 Robert Simpson
 
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?
 Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 21:32:36 +0100
 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 On Monday, July 7, 2003, at 01:14 PM, Robert Simpson wrote:
 
 snip
 
 I am surprised there isn't more interest in a common
 internationalization
 framework within Jakarta.  But then I have been assuming that there are
 non-English-speaking members in Jakarta, not just committers and
 other users of the code.
 
 i think that there several jakarta members who are not native english
 speakers. as Tetsuya Kitahata pointed out there are far fewer members
 than
 committers and i'm not sure whether there are any jakarta members who are
 native speakers of non-latin languages. it takes a lot of energy to
 spearhead an incubation and it's a big commitment for a member to make.
 
 but i don't think that the member would have to come from jakarta (even
 if
 that's where those people involved with the product hope that it will end
 up). i wonder whether you might have more luck finding a sponsor over in
 xml-land. since many of their products are multi-language a common i18n
 framework may be of more pressing importance than here. i also have an
 idea that there are members whose native languages are non-latin.
 
 i like the idea of an apache wide i18n project along the lines suggested
 by Tetsuya Kitahata.
 
 - robert
 
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject
 Date: Sat, 12 Jul 2003 08:55:00 -0400
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List
 [EMAIL PROTECTED],[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 References: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 WRT Santiago's point about keeping the different translations in sync,
 the
 solution is to have each word/phrase in (1) or each section in (2)
 identified
 in the XML with a version number.  Then it would be a simple matter to
 have a
 program compare the two documents, and indicate where the translation
 needs to
 be updated (the program could even provide an initial translation of the
 section via machine translation, to be refined by the human
 translator).  The
 XML should also indicate who made each change and whether a change was
 prompted by a need to change the document (additions to content, for
 example)
 or as a translation of another version.  That way, no particular
 translation
 would have to be the primary document, and any conflicts could be
 identified
 and handled.  For example, a Spanish-speaking person could add a missing
 section to the Spanish translation of a document, and that section could
 then
 be translated back into the original and other translations.  This
 arrangement
 could also handle proposed additions (the XML equivalent of I, a
 Spanish
 translator, propose to add a new section here), which could be
 commented on
 (ex: that section would be better placed over there) and/or voted on by
 translators of other languages, etc

Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?

2003-07-11 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/11/03 12:36 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Robert Simpson escribió:
 
 
 David Taylor has already anwered WRT code.
 
 I was thinking mostly about having a pool of people who can translate
 and are more or less cross project. For instance, I can translate
 English to Spanish, and I'm a committer in Jetspeed, but I could also
 translate, say, parts of the tomcat documents that I'm reading, or some
 XML stuff I'm interested into. Or even docs for Apache modules.
 

Now you're talking!

 The good part is that it would help the whole community, both WRT
 translation efforts and WRT crosspollination, as these kind of people
 will see beyond their small project(s). Also, it oculd bring new kinds
 of developers (Today I heard in the radio, coming home, that 72% od
 people in Spain cannot speak *any* foreign language. We are a bad sample
 but in most of Europe, less than 50% people speaks English.)
 

+1

 The problem is that I can't see clearly how to implement such a
 crosscutting service/project, in ways that would not be difficult to
 impossible to manage. Specially since we should keep source control on
 both the original doc and the translations in sync.


We're trying to do this on POI, we just have a shortage of people.  We've
already got the source organization.  Anyone who wants to help translate
will be given commit access pretty quickly.
 
 Any ideas?
 
 Regards

-Andy

-- 
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Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
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Re: Possibly Include HTMLParser Jar in contrib code?

2003-07-11 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
We're not allowed to have LGPL dependencies per the Apache board.  They have
a legal concern with the LGPL section 6 and the FSF is unwilling to clarify
the issue although I've personally written them in the past they apparently
are not filled with a spirit of free sharing with regards to information
about the meaning of their licenses.  While they are not obligated to
respond it would have certainly have been a courteous thing to do.  Thus far
I have attempted to write

Their lawyer  : Eben Moglen
Their RMS : Richard Stallman
Their gnumail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]

None have yielded a response.  Thus I regard them as unfriendly at the
least.  

While I do not agree with the conservative interpretation of the LGPL by the
ASF, I totally agree that legal ambiguity is a bad thing and understand why
they wish to avoid this.

Anyone who can lend assistance in getting into contact with them with
regards to clarifying the LGPL license's terms as they apply to java (in
particular jars and imports) such that we can LGPL libraries, I'd be much
appreciative and would be in your debt.

Thanks,

-Andy

On 7/11/03 9:31 AM, epugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 For a couple months now, I have periodically had to post a patch adding more
 unicode mappings for the HSSFCellUtil contrib class:
 http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-poi/src/contrib/src/org/apache/poi/hss
 f/usermodel/contrib/HSSFCellUtil.java?rev=1.6content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-
 markup.
 
 If you look at the bottom, there is a static population of unicodeMappings.
 Now, since I am lazy, I didn't want to type them all in myself.  Well, I
 finally found a library called HTMLParser
 (http://htmlparser.sourceforge.net/) that has a Translate class that does
 the unicode translation I need:
 http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/htmlparser/htmlparser/src/org
 /htmlparser/util/Translate.java?rev=1.28content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-marku
 p
 
 Would it be better to post a patch file that includes this jar, even though
 it would mean another dependency, or should I just lift the code for this
 class?  I need to add another 10 unicode mappings, and really would like a
 better solution!
 
 Sincerely,
 Eric Pugh
 
 
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Re: XML Beans advertised on Jakarta ... Re: Vote for XMLBeansproposal

2003-07-09 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/9/03 1:49 PM, robert burrell donkin
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 I'd object to that personally.  We link projects which were in Jakarta
 historically and have become top level projects, but we do not link all of
 the XML projects.  I'd object to that not only on practical concerns but
 with the logic Then I'd like POI linked from the XML site ;-)
 
 why shouldn't POI be linked from the XML site as well as the jakarta one?


Maybe because its not an XML project under the XML PMC and has never been
such?  Maybe because the leftnav would get very long if every project on
Apache was listed on the every other one?  Though its fine with me... ;-)
 
 - robert
 
 
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Re: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?

2003-07-05 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
From the proposal I was not able to determine *what it intends to do*..
Besides that, the criteria for helping is IMHO a bit discouraging.  Granted
its hard to help if you've never been outside of Kansas, but maybe Dorothy
darn tootin cares about i18n and wants to make sure that toto can use her
application...  Perhaps there is something left for her to do even if she
only speaks 'merican.

-Andy

On 7/5/03 12:16 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello, Robert,
 
 
 Personally, I am interested in this project, but I am not a *member*
 in ASF. (Just a *committer* in jakarta)
 How about posting your message to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 ??
 (subscribe: [EMAIL PROTECTED])
 Maybe, you can find the ASF *member*  outside of jakarta.
 
 Here's a list of the number of *committer* and *member* in ASF umbrella
 ( Originally created by Steven Noels)
 --
 
 Amount of committers: 677
 
 Name,committers,members
 ant,34,8
 apr,42,32
 avalon,80,15
 cocoon,60,14
 commons,10,10
 db,35,9
 embperl,13,6
 httpd,145,111
 incubator,26,12
 jakarta,314,35
 james,13,3
 java,7,1
 maven,25,4
 mod_dtcl,9,4
 modperl,18,7
 tcl,9,4
 ws,86,11
 xml,259,28
 --
 
 
 There are only 35 potential Mentors (I mean, sponsors) in jakarta, as
 you can see. If you are confident you can build a powerful community,
 IMHO you do not have to stick to seek the Mentor in jakarta.
 
 I hope this mail might help you to some extent.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 -
 
 On 3 Jul 2003 15:23:10 -
 (Subject: [i18n] Internationalization subproject sponsor?)
 Robert Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 To current members of the Jakarta project:
 
 Is there any current member of the Jakarta project who would be interested in
 sponsoring the entry of the Internationalization subproject into the
 incubator?
 
 The Internationalization subproject would be somewhat different than the
 other Jakarta projects in that there would be two types of contributors:
 
1. the (traditional) code contributors
2. the language translation contributors
 
 So far, the reponses I have received regarding people would would be
 interested
 in contributing have all been outside Jakarta - mostly language translators.
 Since the Internationalization subproject would most likely fit into the
 Jakarta project, it would help to have a sponsor from within Jakarta, per the
 Incubation Process documentation.
 
 The subproject proposal and initial code contribution can be found earlier in
 the Jakarta General mailing list, or here:
 http://www.itoolset.com/i18n/PROPOSAL.html
 
 Without a sponsor, I will probably move the code that was extracted in
 preparation for submission to Apache back into the iToolSet package hierarchy
 and let it pass as an Apache contribution until there is more interest in a
 common Internationalization architecture within Apache itself.
 
 Thanks in advance.
 Robert Simpson
 
 
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 -
 Tetsuya Kitahata --  Terra-International, Inc.
 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 http://www.terra-intl.com/
 (Apache Jakarta Translation, Japanese)
 http://jakarta.terra-intl.com/
 
 
 
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Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-04 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/4/03 7:26 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 Don't forget that sundown occurs continuously in a slice of the world,
 and that the probability of an Apache committer seeing a sundown is high
 at any given moment ( http://cvs.apache.org/~sgala/nightmap.html )
 
 Regards

I think that is a conversation best held at [EMAIL PROTECTED] :-p ;-)

-Andy

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Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

 Simplistic standards like  51% of the ACTIVE committership from a
 different company might work for making simplistic decisions.  They are
 not appropriate for a decision to accept a new project into Apache, which
 should be based on the quality of the proposed code and the proposed
 initial committers, not on the email addresses of the proposed initial
 committers.


Maybe that¹s not a candidate for policy however it is required for MY vote.
If your boss came and said Craig, if you don't vote X then you're fired
and said this to a number of committers...  While some might quit or
whatever, I suspect the vote would be decided supposing they dominate the
project.

Furthermore, the interests of a set of employees of a company using a
project for a particular purpose will tend to have homogenous interests.
Thus will *tend* to vote similarly (if not the same way).  It is my
experience that developers who counter their employers interest do not stay
employed for long. 

Lastly, developers who work together at work tend to communicate directly
versus on community resources more frequently.

In a NEW project it is my opinion that diversity should be settled up front
so that no one company controls any new project.  This is MY criteria for
certain and required for my vote -- perhaps its not yours.

-Andy
 
 Craig McClanahan
 
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Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/3/03 2:22 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 As Santiago points out, the veto rule provides some protection over
 pure majority, but I don't think anyone here wants to rely on that.
 All I can tell you is that BEA is more concerned about establishing a
 long term relationship with Apache and other open source communities
 than controlling the future development of XMLBeans.  From our
 perspective, we have much more to gain by proving ourselves as credible
 and positive contributors to open source, especially since we would
 like XMLBeans to be the first in a series of open source contributions.
 If the BEA committers attempt to make decisions against the wishes of
 the rest of the community and are viewed negatively for doing so, we
 have absolutely failed in what we set out to do.


That is encouraging.  That would be a nice development.  Of course you
understand that I don't want us to totally make an exception just because of
this.  At the moment, on the merits, the project has some difficulty.
However using this motivation that you're expressing, I think this is a
bridge that can be crossed.

-andy
 
 See my response to Howard's questions for more on how the project
 differs technically from other open source projects.
 
 Cliff
 
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Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
In summary the most serious issues to this proposal are:

1. diversity of committership.  I'd personally like to see 51% of the
ACTIVE committership from a different company.  So long as a decision in one
company can MAKE the vote, you don't have an Apache project, you have a
corporate subproject at Apache.

2. Pick your project.  I think it would have been a lot less confusing to
mail the proposal to Jakarta or XML.  Personally, if this is a Java only
project, I think it should go to Jakarta.  If it is a mult-platform C a/o
C++ and Java, then it make sense for it to be part of XML.  The proposers
and sponsors should just decide and go in a single direction rather than
kicking off a big debate.

3. Duplication of effort.  The project encompasses schema validation which
is done my XML parsers and it is Yet Another XML-Java binding API (there
are some here and several elsewhere).  From the standpoint of something I'd
commit code to, this bores the crap out of me.  From the standpoint of
acceptability, its totally irrelevant.  Choice is good, competition and
cooperation exist not only in opensource but often in the same area of given
projects.  Thus if it can become an Apache community, then its irrelevant.

4. Machiavelli - I originally posted this to a private list because I didn¹t
think it was good to say publicly, but rounding things out here might be
good.  Thus anointing BEA into the real open source and Apache world is a
motivation.  I don't think this project should be accepted without meeting
the basic qualifications because of that, but maybe its a motivation to be a
little more helpful than usual ;-).  It might also round out the power
structure at Apache a little if BEA began participating.

Suggested courses of action:

1. Immediately begin recruiting other interested folks to round out the
committership.  This should not exit the incubator until 51% of regular
voting committers are not from the same company.  (meaning no show
committers who never vote ;-) but round out the percentage)

2. Pick a project (XML or Jakarta) and say would you accept this given it
is acceptable out of the incubator

3. Steven should begin suffering the incubator and moving the bureaucratic
wheels.

4. set up the mail lists

5. Work on Gump integration and source structure to match other projects.

6. Project should be a subcontext of incubator for the moment.  There are
far more issues that must be worked out and confusion between a potential
Apache project and an Apache project should be avoided.

I still feel a little bit like this should start on sourceforge, round out
the community issues, then move to incubator

Thoughts?

-Andy
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Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
So what in this ensures this will be a community-developed project and not
just an Apache branded extension of BEA?  I really would like to see you
guys involved in Apache, but not in a way the compromises Apache.  There is
a challenge that limits the excitement of others in that there are so many
other similar projects that do exactly the same thing.  Perhaps it would
benefit the effort if you explained why we needed another one.  That has no
bearing on its suitability but it might make people more interested who
wouldn't be otherwise.

Note that I didn't come up with the shouldn't be all from the same company
requirement...that was noted long before my time..

-Andy

On 7/3/03 1:27 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I understand Andy's concern here, but I think Craig does a good job
 of pointing out the consequences of less participation by the core
 developers of a project, and the possibly invalid assumptions
 around that.
 
 As any of the committers can tell you, I wrestled with the list and
 really tried to limit the BEA involvement to a functional minimum.
 There are a few reasons why I ended up with 6 out of 9 being BEA
 folks:
 
 1) I'm really hoping that other members of the Apache community will
 find this project interesting enough that we will end up with a
 couple experienced Apache people on our committer list, thereby
 reducing the BEA percentage.
 
 2) The core XMLBeans developers (all BEA employees) are really
 excited about this stuff and want to do what ever they can to keep
 improving it. They are open to all kind of possibilities for
 refactoring, integration with other projects, and especially working
 with others on it...but they really all wanted to stay involved.  It
 would probably be more efficient for BEA to have only a couple
 developers on the project, but the individuals wanted to be as
 involved as possible.
 
 3) In the end, I had to go with the people I thought would have the
 most knowledge and experience with the code to lead by example.  I
 am hoping that an active committer list will inspire community
 participation.  I found three non-BEA people who I know will fill
 this role, plus the six BEA people.
 
 (I'll be responding to Andy's other points and Howard's email
 shortly.)
 
 Cliff
 
 
 On Thursday, July 03, 2003 10:01 AM, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
 
 Snipping to an issue I have with one particular comment.
 
 On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 
 In summary the most serious issues to this proposal are:
 
 1. diversity of committership.  I'd personally like to see 51% of
 the ACTIVE committership from a different company.  So long as a
 decision in one company can MAKE the vote, you don't have an Apache
 project, you have a corporate subproject at Apache.
 
 
 Andy, I agree with you that diversity is important, but your proposed
 standard (more than half the committers from elsewhere) has some
 distrubing implications that are worth exploring.
 
 * There is an implied assumption that the proposed committers
   will behave the way that their employer wants, not the way
   that they want.  Although it is too simplistic to say that
   this never happens (our individual actions are public record,
   so of course you take into consideration what your employer
   might think), developers that are solely corporate mouthpiece
   players should never have been elected as committers
   in the first place.
 
 * There is an implied assumption that all the committers from
   the same company will vote the same way.  I can tell you from
   lots of experience over the last few years (some of it pretty
   painful and personal) that this is not likely to be a problem.
   If it is, then we screwed up on accepting the original committers
   in the first place.
 
 * There is an implied assumption that a person's employer (and
   therefore their corporate email address) should have anything to do
   with whether or not that person is individually a good choice for
   being an Apache committer.  THAT should be the overriding concern
   -- after all, they will be able to stay a committer even if they
   move to a different job (within the same company or elsewhere).
 
 * What happens to your diversity statistics if a committer that was
   originally outside the originating company is then hired by that
   company to continue working on the project?  One of the company's
   goals might well be to support open source by allowing that person
   to work on the project on company time; yet your proposed standard
   would view the change of employment as a negative and not a
 positive. 
 
 Apache is about individuals, not about companies.  Apache is about
 attracting high quality software projects, not about conspiracy
 theories (go back in the archives a couple years before you joined,
 and you'll see LOTS of discussion along these lines :-).
 
 Diversity is important -- a proposal that ONLY has committers from one
 company needs to be analyzied.  But a proposal

Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
+1

On 7/3/03 2:26 PM, Neil Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hi Cliff,
 
 I think the copy list of your note to Howard must have been a good bit
 narrower than the copy list of this response to Andy.  :)  Any chance you
 could enlighten those of us in this broader group who are interested as to
 the technical points on which XMLBeans differs from other technologies?
 
 Cheers!
 Neil
 Neil Graham
 XML Parser Development
 IBM Toronto Lab
 Phone:  905-413-3519, T/L 969-3519
 E-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
 |-+
 | |   Cliff Schmidt  |
 | |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  |
 | ||
 | |   07/03/2003 02:22 |
 | |   PM   |
 | |   Please respond to|
 | |   general  |
 | ||
 |-+
 -
 |
 |
 |
 |   To:   Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED],
 [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]   |
 |   cc:  
 |
 |   Subject:  RE: Issues with XMLBeans proposal
 |
 |
 |
 |
 |
 -
 |
 
 
 
 On Thursday, July 03, 2003 11:01 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 So what in this ensures this will be a community-developed project
 and not just an Apache branded extension of BEA?  I really would like
 to see you guys involved in Apache, but not in a way the compromises
 Apache.  There is a challenge that limits the excitement of others in
 that there are so many other similar projects that do exactly the
 same thing.  Perhaps it would benefit the effort if you explained why
 we needed another one.  That has no bearing on its suitability but it
 might make people more interested who wouldn't be otherwise.
 
 As Santiago points out, the veto rule provides some protection over
 pure majority, but I don't think anyone here wants to rely on that.
 All I can tell you is that BEA is more concerned about establishing a
 long term relationship with Apache and other open source communities
 than controlling the future development of XMLBeans.  From our
 perspective, we have much more to gain by proving ourselves as credible
 and positive contributors to open source, especially since we would
 like XMLBeans to be the first in a series of open source contributions.
 If the BEA committers attempt to make decisions against the wishes of
 the rest of the community and are viewed negatively for doing so, we
 have absolutely failed in what we set out to do.
 
 See my response to Howard's questions for more on how the project
 differs technically from other open source projects.
 
 Cliff
 
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Re: Issues with XMLBeans proposal

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/3/03 3:50 PM, Cliff Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 On Thursday, July 03, 2003 8:57 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 2. Pick your project.  I think it would have been a lot less
 confusing to mail the proposal to Jakarta or XML.  Personally, if
 this is a Java only project, I think it should go to Jakarta.  If it
 is a mult-platform C a/o C++ and Java, then it make sense for it to
 be part of XML.  The proposers and sponsors should just decide and go
 in a single direction rather than kicking off a big debate.
 
 This is definitely a Java-only project right now.  If that is a clear
 line of separation, I will stop posting to the XML list.  The reason
 I posted to both lists was partly due to the fact that XMLBeans is much
 more XML-centric than Java centric (in terms of data modeling and the
 full fidelity availability of the XML Infoset); I really feel like this
 is one of those projects that could go either way.  The other reason
 for posting to both lists is that three different Apache people (two of
 them ASF members) advised me to do so.  I'm definitely interested in
 feedback as to whether to just limit the discussion to Jakarta right
 now.


options:

1. Top level project - IMHO this isn't big enough and you don't have the
open source experience or robust community to pull that off (not intended to
be a criticism)

2. XML - I'm sure it would be fine.

3. Jakarta - IMHO this the best place for it.

The division of XML vs Jakarta predates me for certain, but I think the main
issues surrounding that are rusty.
 
 I've tried to address some of the differences with XMLBeans and why I
 think it adds a lot more than currently existing projects (see my
 response to Howard -- http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=15061).  However, this might
 be a good time for David Bau, the architect behind XMLBeans, to jump in
 with his views.
 

Okay.  It sounds like there are some issues which warrant this over others.
I could see this being useful in things like web services as well...  Limit
object creation/serialization and yada yada yada...  Though from reading the
10k foot view you could support JAXB if you wanted to.  Just an element of
curio for me...Offtopic...nevermind ;-)

 
 We would appreciate any help anyone has to offer, but I'm hoping we
 don't appear to need any special treatment.  I've spent the last few
 months talking to everyone I can and reading everything I can about
 how to do this right.  You and Howard have brought up some very
 reasonable points and I want to make sure I address them (either with
 further explanation or by making whatever changes to this proposal are
 necessary).


Well the homogony is a big issue.  Apache isn't a panacea, you'll have to
work at it but I think you're sincere and motivated.  Steven can help you
through the gauntlet^M^M^M^M^M^M^Mincubator process and provided the
committership had rounded out, and you integrated with Gump I'd vote in
favor of Jakarta acceptance.

(BTW acceptance to Jakarta is a majority of the Jakarta PMC vote)...  It
would be nice if other Jakarta PMC members sounded off a little so the
incubator can hear.

-Andy
 
 Thanks,
 Cliff
 
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[VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
+1

On 7/3/03 4:59 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Did anything every happen on this?  I remember ACO sending out a message, but
 I don't know if it
 every made it to a vote.  I'd really like to pursue this, because of my
 instatiable craving for
 power.
 
 --
 Howard M. Lewis Ship
 Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
 http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
 
 
 
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Re: [VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Oooh ooh does that mean we all get to stab him?  Sorry I'm from a violent
culture...its our way... GET USED TO IT!  ;-)

http://linuxintegrators.com/hl30/blog/general/?permalink=And+that%27s+a+404+
on+the+Weapons+of+Mass+Destruction.html

;-)


-andy

On 7/3/03 6:03 PM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 +1
 
 Howard for King
 
 On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 +1
 
 On 7/3/03 4:59 PM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 Did anything every happen on this?  I remember ACO sending out a message,
 but
 I don't know if it
 every made it to a vote.  I'd really like to pursue this, because of my
 instatiable craving for
 power.
 
 --
 Howard M. Lewis Ship
 Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
 http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
 
 
 
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 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
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Re: [VOTE] Howard Lewis Ship PMC Nomination

2003-07-03 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/3/03 6:23 PM, Jim Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Does it make sense that someone is nominating himself
 (or re-nominating himself) for membership?
 

:-p  We already voted him in...I nominated him a long while back...Just no
one like...bothered to count the votes and do whatever was needed to instate
him (like tell him how to subscribe)

Now if he crowns himselfwe'll have to send troops and banish him to a
small islandor come at him with knifes...depends on what kind of emperor
he is

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Re: The vendors page

2003-07-02 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Okay, then I shall for now on dutifully ignore patches to the page from
names I do not recognize.  I, personally, am unlikely to commit patches at
all (figuring most should be able to commit them themselves with the rare
exceptions mentioned) from this point on.

-Andy

On 7/2/03 9:51 AM, Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I'm tending towards the argument that if you can convince someone who has the
 right access to update
 the vendors.xml
 page, then you deserve to be on the list.
 
 --
 Howard M. Lewis Ship
 Creator, Tapestry: Java Web Components
 http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Steven Noels [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, July 02, 2003 8:37 AM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: The vendors page
 
 
 On 2/07/2003 11:13 Santiago Gala wrote:
 
 I would not say you employ, but just convince one
 jakarta commiter
 to
 make the change. This would ensure at least some level of
 communication 
 (like sending it to the project -dev list and discussing it
 there, etc.)
 
 +1 on being present on the list and discussing things
 
 snip/
 
 the project committers should be aware of them existing and
 supporting the project.
 
 Yep - so basically this should be decided on a subproject-level in
 Jakarta's case. I doubt *anyone* is able to support *all* Jakarta
 subprojects on a level that he/she serves his customers well.
 Suggestion: move this page away from the Jakarta main site, and
 stimulate subprojects to host their own vendor pages.
 
 /Steven
 -- 
 Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/
 Outerthought - Open Source, Java  XML Competence Support Center
 Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/
 stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org
 
 
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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

2003-07-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Stop using Windows and such fears generally subside.

On 7/1/03 8:11 AM, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Same here. (although I am glad I am not as popular as you! 300???!!!)
 
 I was getting afraid that some servers would just start blocking my
 email from this address... but this got to such a dimension that I
 am sure all sysadmins must know how it works by now.
 
 There was a time I thought I was really somehow infected, but I am
 offline during weekends and I just get too much warnings from
 antivirus email filters on Monday.
 
 So, people: just get your machine offline for a while if you use
 Outlook and have this kind of doubt.
 
 
 Have fun,
 Paulo Gaspar
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: sexta-feira, 27 de Junho de 2003 17:48
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses
 
 
 That is exactly what happens with this particular worm.  If your address
 is in the address book of someone who gets infected, not only do *you*
 start to receive the messages, messages with forged from headers with
 your name on them also go out.  Then, the volume of messages is made worse
 by all of those helpful spam filters that catch the fact that the virus
 is included, and return a notification to the (forged) sender.
 
 Obscuring email addresses in the archives would have zero impact on this
 particular problem.
 
 Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail)
 
 
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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

2003-07-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 7/1/03 8:20 AM, Stefan Bodewig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Paulo Gaspar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 but this got to such a dimension that I am sure all sysadmins must
 know how it works by now.
 
 Unlikely, this is by for not the first virus/worm working that way -
 during the last round I got informed that I was banned from the
 netbeans-dev list (that I had never subscribed to).
 
 I think those antivirus-software should get smarter.  The scanners
 know which virus they've found as they name it in the bounce mails (a
 couple of hundreds here as well by now) - so one should think they'd
 also know that the From header is forged and any bounce is useless.
 

Exactly!!!  Idiots!!  The Virus uses the anti-virus to do most of its dirty
work.

 Stefan
 
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The vendors page

2003-07-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
The original intent of the vendors.xml page was:

 1. Because I got sick of hearing people say Jakarta projects are not
supported and wanted a page to send people to during presentations.

 2. So a certain unnamed committer would not feel the need to spam the lists
(because I though if he got away with it, others would start doing it and
then I'd get lists full of consultancy spam).

Now that Open Source is no longer a commercial cussword and I doubt even an
economic turnaround will kill the momentum, I think that the policy for that
page ought to be just have one of the committers you employ on the Jakarta
projects you support make the change.  Thus tightening it from people who
support Jakarta projects to people who support Jakarta projects.

Thoughts/Objections?

-Andy
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Semi-OT FSF on Linux

2003-06-28 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/sco-statement.html

I have to say, that¹s the best rationalization for viral clauses in
licenses that I've seen to date.

-Andy
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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

2003-06-27 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I'd be all of this if it would make a difference, unfortunately you're
barking up the wrong tree.  I'm getting that virus/attachment to every email
address I have just about.  I think it looks locally (user address book,
etc).  Thus I'm against this on the principal that its a big waste of time.
Spammers will get publicly posted email addresses elsewhere and viruses get
them from outlook.  (and I mean OUTLOOK.  You want to stop mail viruses???
STOP USING M$ OUTLOOK AND EXCHANGE.  Write your sysadmin, explain to him
that he's an idiot for installing that security hole with email features).

-Andy

On 6/27/03 10:32 AM, Andrus Adamchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

2003-06-27 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

 Craig (just cleaned out about 300 of these from this morning's mail)
 

I feel your pain brother McClanahan, I feel your pain.

I wish all of the dimwits who write the virus scanners would make it smart
enough not to reply to the reply-to in the event of viruses which forge the
reply-to...Duh.  

-Andy

 
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Re: Proposal: Jakarta should protect community email addresses

2003-06-27 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Unfortunately only someone who doesn't use Outlook can really sue M$.  You
see the license agreement says you hold them harmless.  Now a non-party to
the license agreement can obviously sue them (I think).

-Andy

On 6/27/03 1:58 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Andrew C. Oliver escribió:
 I'd be all of this if it would make a difference, unfortunately you're
 barking up the wrong tree.  I'm getting that virus/attachment to every email
 address I have just about.  I think it looks locally (user address book,
 etc).  Thus I'm against this on the principal that its a big waste of time.
 Spammers will get publicly posted email addresses elsewhere and viruses get
 them from outlook.  (and I mean OUTLOOK.  You want to stop mail viruses???
 STOP USING M$ OUTLOOK AND EXCHANGE.  Write your sysadmin, explain to him
 that he's an idiot for installing that security hole with email features).
 
 
 +1
 
 I blogged that governments and corporations should sue Microsoft about
 Outlook security flaws. (Spanish:
 http://memojo.com/memojowiki/Wiki.jsp?page=SantiagoGalaBlog_blogentry_110603_2
 )
 
 Governments and Corporations are loosing tons of money because of this.
 Today I received 5 viruses this way.
 
 A short questin: what would happen if your brand new Ford or Toyota
 would unlock the doors automatically every time a person passing by
 clapped hands? Microsoft has been selling a product with this feature
 for years.
 
 I don't get it. Except Microsoft has too much power for a government or
 a company suing on this.
 
 -Andy
 
 On 6/27/03 10:32 AM, Andrus Adamchik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 

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Re: Apache vote on TCK re Sun

2003-06-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I'd hope the ASF would vote against it in the final vote if it doesn't
support open implementations with reasonable licenses.

On 6/25/03 9:11 AM, Vic Cekvenich [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=20005
 
 http://www.theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=19942
 
 As per above I Quote:
 though IBM and Motorola still voted no. There also appear to be some
 disagreements within the JCP board about the licensing of these specs.
 Sun apparently plans to charge a Per unit royalty fee which will be
 dependent on volume.
 
 Doug Lea voted with comment.
 
 Apache vote with Sun with YES, without comment this says.
 
 I am wondering why? Other voted YES with comment.
 
 I personally wish they voted NO as they did in past on similar topic. I
 mean look at the implications, such as JBOSS is not J2EE (no big fan of
 EJB here),  this makes it harder to have a Jakarta project that is JCP.
 
 Is anyone privy to ASF feeling on this topic related to open source in
 general and Java? I know there was some agreement btwn Sun and ASF.
 JCP *is* Sun domintated, but not ASF, AFAIK
 IBM seems more friendly to O.S, they said OK, but had a comment.
 
 
 .V
 
 
 ps: This is a possibility as well down the road:
 http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030213.html
 
 That is why my clients don't use Sun VM in favor of BEA J:Rockit, and
 IBM VM. Java would live past Sun, should the worst happen.
 http://www.penguincomputing.com/graphics/desktops/eclipse1280x1024.jpg
 
 
 
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Re: Request to grant karma for jakarta-site2/xdocs/sitetoluehe

2003-06-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On 6/18/03 11:40 PM, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No reason to keep this thread a secret, moving to general.
 
 Never was.  I'd moved it to Community@, instead.  :-)
 
 --- Noel
 
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Ahh, so that a portion of the community is excluded from participating in
the conversation...  Good move ;-)

Mr. Ed is deadtake that Ed, take that!

-Andy
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Re: Request to grant karma for jakarta-site2/xdocs/sitetoluehe

2003-06-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Setting a valve on participation is not conducive to the name.



-Andy

On 6/19/03 10:16 AM, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 No reason to keep this thread a secret, moving to general.
 Never was.  I'd moved it to Community@, instead.  :-)
 Ahh, so that a portion of the community is excluded from
 participating in the conversation...  Good move ;-)
 
 Would you have preferred [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Community@ spans all ASF projects,
 not just Jakarta.  As you are well aware, anyone can be invited into
 Community@, and the archives are public.
 
 archives: http://archives.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=135
 
 If you want to CC it to Jakarta-General, do so.
 
 --- Noel
 
 
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