Re: Image problem on tomcat

2007-06-28 Thread Danny Angus
This is not the right place to get help, try the tomcat users list. 
http://tomcat.apache.org/lists.html

P.S. you probably need to add the extension and the mime type to a 
configuration file.

d.


Zilberstein Yuval [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 28/06/2007 
16:22:02:

 Hello all,
 I have an image problem on the Tomcat server.
 I have a picture with a special Korean format: cwsis. It is just like
 any other jpg or gif image, but with a format that is not popular.
 The image itself is on the tomcat server.
 I am trying to display the image on a special mobile browser, by
 requesting it from a jsp on the tomcat server,
 But the browser can not display it.
 When I am trying to display it from another apache server it works ok.
 The code is as follows:
 
 jsp:useBean id=entryB class=com.pele.mmbox.beans.AlbumEntryBean
 scope=session/
 pre
 /pre
 img src=http://10.171.193.85:8090/mmbox/o549d000212946200.cwsis;
 a href=testDownload.jspdown/a
 
 Any ideas?
 TIA Yuval
 
 TX
 YuvalZ
 
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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature


Re: Jakarta site directory no longer contains .svn directories

2007-06-08 Thread Danny Angus

On 6/7/07, Thomas Vandahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Danny Angus wrote:
 Yes.. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html

I've never seen this before. What link would have taken me there? From
jakarta.apache.org, I mean?


Oh I don't know the answer to *that* question! I just knew the page
was there. :-)

d.

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Re: Jakarta site directory no longer contains .svn directories

2007-06-07 Thread Danny Angus

On 6/7/07, Thomas Vandahl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Is this procedure ... documented somewhere?


Yes.. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-22 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/22/07, Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


It's pretty simple to solve this though (even though repeating myself here) : 
Let (a flattened)
commons become Jakarta..


I thought that that idea was unpopular with some commons commiters on this PMC?

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/21/07, J Aaron Farr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


This thread has been more quiet than I expected.


I thought so too.

There are two points which I'd like to make from the things that have
been said so far,

1/  From Ted H. Whenever we foster healthy communities that create
great software, we will create another great brand.  It's what we do.

That's a really good point, and one which more than anything else has
raised a doubt in my mind as to the benefit of retaining the Jakarta
brand.

2/ It seems that we have a consensus forming around the idea that it
would be worthwhile retaining some resources in a low-maintenance way.
However its not clear where the ownership of these would lie.

I like the idea that http://jakarta might aggregate news content from
java projects. Differentiating itself from http://projects by being
the source of news about apache java projects.

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/21/07, J Aaron Farr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


This thread has been more quiet than I expected.


Actually, thinking about it, perhaps that's because we all think we
know where this is inevitably going and we're just waiting for it all
to settle out.

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/21/07, Jörg Schaible [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


1/ Open-up Jakarta to all committers, was vetoed
2/ Merge commons into Jakarta, was vetoed
3/ Move commons into own TLP, was vetoed

So what's left in your opinion?


Work with the people who cast the deadlocking vetoes to resolve their
issues and uncover a compromise which is acceptable to the majority.

I'm not sure why 1/ is vetoed, unless this is related to the POI
confusion over M$ IP. In which case POI TLP should remove that veto.

2/ commons TLP should resolve this

3/ veto was mainly detail around name and the wording of the
resolution, no reason to suppose this won't be resolved. the proposal
received -1's but the people who voted -1 should work with the
community to get their concerns resolved, not simply block all
progress.

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/21/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


If someone wants to turn Jakarta into a Java portal, then turn Jakarta
into a Java portal. Some of the codebases may still be under the
Jakarta PMC umbrella, but would have little effect on using the
Jakarta site as a portal to the ASF's Java assets.


Ok Ownership is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
disbanded who provides the oversight?



Anyone interested in such a thing can start now. There's no need for a
vote.


But it is under the auspices of the Jakarta PMC, I though there was a
reluctance to see the jakarta PMC retained just for managing these
resources?


d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/21/07, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 5/21/07, Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ok Ownership is perhaps the wrong word, if Jakarta is being
 disbanded who provides the oversight?

The same people who provide oversight for any ASF project: The people
doing the work.

If anyone wants Jakarta to be the ASF portal to all of our Java
assets, then make it so.

A commit is the only vote that counts.


Yes, OK, and that's what I'm trying to find out. Does anyone? or is it just me?
If its just me then even without my customary modesty I'd struggle to
imagine that I could provide a sensible level of attention, this
requires some degree of support or we're just flogging a dead horse.
I'm trying to find out whether or not it is even worth drafting a
vote, or if we just want to all go home once the last active
sub-projects get their TLP.

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-15 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/15/07, Jesse Kuhnert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

From a practical pov isn't java already associated with the word grouping
commons apache?


No, that's the point http://commons.apache.org/

Although this commons project was supposed to replace the commons
efforts in jakarta.apache and xml.apache

d.

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[PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-15 Thread Danny Angus

Hi,

Ok, I've followed the commons TLP vote thread with some interest
because it seems to impact directly on the end-game for Jakarta.

I believe that we have to make some pretty fundamental decisions about
that future before we can fully resolve the commons TLP issues.

0/ Do we agree that the end-game is dissolution of the Jakarta PMC and
closure of the project?
 Pro - Draws a line under the reorg effort which has gone on for 3 or
4 *years*.
 Con - Removes the remaining tangible  historic links between former
Jakarta sub-projects.

1/ If so do we wish to preserve the Jakarta brand? (the website and
possibly general@)
  Pro  - As Ted H. says We should stop thinking of Jakarta only as
an entity, and go back to thinking of it as to the ASF synonym for
Java, as originally intended.
  With this thought in mind around 10% of the referrals to
james.apache come from jakarta.apache.
  Con - Others consider that the effort of maintaining the resources
would be unacceptable to anyone.

2/ If we believe that the brand should be preserved should the commons
TLP take ownership of the brand (if/when Jakarta PMC is dissolved)
  Pro - Commons is an active community which continues to fulfil the
jakarta==java remit.
  Con - Commons is not necessarily interested in the brand or
maintenance of its resources. (would people from other projects step
up)

3/ If we believe that a commons TLP should not own the brand are any
of the alternative options acceptable?
 - Retain the Jakarta PMC solely to maintain the brand
 - Move ownership of the brand to the prc (should they agree to have it)
 - Move ownership of the brand to projects.apache maintainers


x/ Should we consult more widely the Members and/or the Board?

My own (2c) opinion is that:

0/ Yes dissolve the jakarta pmc

1/ Yes preserve the brand

2/ If commons PMC would be comfortable with this it would be my
preferred choice, *and* it would resolve the naming issue because the
project could be Jakarta Commons which is a minor change from the
sub-project name Jakarta/Commons

3/ If commons PMC would be against this then I think we should approach the prc.

x/ Don't know

In essence are we in favour of a revolutionary end or an evolutionary one?

WDYT?

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-14 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/14/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

As my random suggestion that Ted quoted points out, you can have a PMC
without their having to be TLP. Least I was told that a couple of
years ago either on board@ or face to face, so we could do the
following:

* Create the Jakarta Commons PMC, without changing the website (or
even the svn maybe).
* Continue to encourage Jakarta subprojects to move to TLP, go into
maintenance or move over to other PMCs.
* Reach a point at which we can end the Jakarta PMC, or federate or whatever.


Do you mean that the resources can then be handed over to the
Jakarta-commons (or whatever) PMC?
I'm in favour of that idea, jakarta==jakarta-commons is the option
which I think makes most sense of all for the future of Jakarta.

1/ it preserves a valuable brand
2/ commons embodies the original ethos of Jakarta
3/ commons (as we've seen hints of) still actively depends (c.f
passively benefiting) upon the Jakarta brand.

To close down the project and hand the brand to another PMC would
also meet all but the most draconian interpretation of what the reorg@
discussions suggested needed to be done about the problem of Jakarta.

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-14 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/8/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[ ] +1 I support the proposal
[ ] +0 I don't care
[ ] -1  I'm opposed to the proposal because...


-1

I would like to see the issues raised regarding the name resolved.
I would also like to see the options regarding commons as a successor
to the Jakarta PMC more fully explored.

Once consensus is forthcoming on these point I will vote +1 to TLP for commons.

I don't believe that commons TLP can be decided in isolation from
consensus about the future for either a) the jakarta pmc and b) the
jakarta brand.

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-14 Thread Danny Angus

On 5/14/07, Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If moving commons TLP is just a twisted (maybe a bad choice of a word) way to 
come back to
jakarta.apache.org in the end, I am -1 on the TLP move..


IF, its a big if and one I think we need to devote some though, and a
*modest* ;-) amount of email to.



We currently have 2 projects moving TLP (Turbine and POI) and after that we 
need to start thinking
about every other project at Jakarta.


+1



So if the goals is to make commons Jakarta, we should aim for that, instead of 
artificially trying
to accomplish that.


IF (see above)


- Fix oversight issues

+1

- Be more transparent for the board

+1

- Move towards a community with the same focus (= eg reusable java components)

+1

- Be able to say in one sentence what Jakarta is about (is consequence of above)

+1

- See where we can fit project that are in maintenance mode or not actively 
supported anymore.

+1

- How to handle projects that don't fit well within the new focus, but work 
pretty well as part of
Jakarta (are people waiting for being on eg 15 PMC's to be able to support 
these projects)


Not sure which projects you're talking about here.


- And Apache wide : is there only a place for projects that have a healthy 
community ?

A Question for the Members to decide I think?

d.

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Re: Looking for an incubation champion

2007-03-08 Thread Danny Angus
Oliver Zeigermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 07/03/2007 
21:31:17:

 
  Not if the code is developed outside the ASF (as seems the case here).
 
 Hmm, is that so? Looking at the charter
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/charter.html
 
 I could not find something like that.

It is possbible to take in external projects, James accepted mime4j and 
jspf.
Perhaps you should ask on [EMAIL PROTECTED]

d.

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Re: News feed,

2007-03-05 Thread Danny Angus
Thanks Henning, I will do.

Henning Schmiedehausen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 05/03/2007 12:04:53:

 As you seem to be building your site with maven: If you use maven 2, I'd
 like to invite you to check out
 
 http://velocity.apache.org/site/tools/velocity-site-news/index.html


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News feed,

2007-02-07 Thread Danny Angus

I see jakarta has a news feed, I'd like to nick the idea for James.
How did you do that?

d.

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Re: Jakarta Voting

2006-12-22 Thread Danny Angus
 As we get more and more into auth, it becomes tempting to auth the
 whole thing. Vote through the webapp and not an email, 

You could sign your mail with a key you register for the purpose.

 listens to emails and a script that sends out emails in a particular
 format. Might work, but parsing replies would probably suck.


You'd be suprised.. If the rule is that everyone must return a signed 
reply to the original mail and enclose their vote in [] ensuring that 
there's only one [] it mightn't be too hard.

d.


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Re: Jakarta Voting

2006-12-22 Thread Danny Angus
Roland Weber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 22/12/2006 09:21:51:

 Hi Danny,
 
  As we get more and more into auth, it becomes tempting to auth the
  whole thing. Vote through the webapp and not an email, 
  
  You could sign your mail with a key you register for the purpose.
 
 that's a big hurdle for a guest voter.

It would only be necessary for binding votes to be signed. No?





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Re: POI TLP -- constructively

2006-12-19 Thread Danny Angus
 +1 to this thread (the Jakarta parts - not the let's all talk about
 our kids, but if anyone wants to I'm as talkative as any other father
 :) ).

+1 to making progress -1 to re-running the old bile.

My kids both got hamsters yesterday (early for christmas), boy was that 
ever exciting! :-)

d.

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Re: [VOTE] Remove POI svn restrictions.

2006-12-18 Thread Danny Angus
 I'm +0 for opening. I'm enthusiastic on pushing POI out of Jakarta to
 remove this restriction. While I agree that POI fits Jakarta theme-wise,
 this access restriction thing feels too much like a wart.

Same here, as no-one has ack#ed my resignation I'm going to vote +0 for 
this.

I think that if POI believe that they are in anyway different from the 
rest of jakarta, and are capable of making these judgements by themselves 
then they should seriously be thinking about becoming a TLP.

I think POI should have another look at the questionnaire:

http://wiki.apache.org/jakarta/JakartaPMCRequestTLPBenchmark

d.

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Re: [site] proposed changes

2006-12-12 Thread Danny Angus

On 12/8/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


   5. Translation sites. They can't keep up, time to go I think.

-1


I think this is an interesting one, perhaps we should think about
setting standards for translation sites which might let us feel more
comfortable linking to. along the lines of the mirrors standards..
http://www.apache.org/info/how-to-mirror.html

d.

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Re: [site] proposed changes

2006-12-04 Thread Danny Angus
   2. Vendor support. This is getting increasingly threadbare - so
 raising the removal of this again. Content to be moved to the Wiki.

Why not just move all of the content of all of these pages to the wiki and 
change the links.
Or better still have a section of wiki links in the right hand nav for 
them.

d.


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Re: Opening up the PMC

2006-08-14 Thread Danny Angus
 1) Every existing committer not on the pmc receives an email asking if
 they would like to join the pmc. Once that email is sent they are marked
 in a file as having had the email sent and we can wash our hands until a
 reply comes in.

I know that this is something that we had as the end-game when all the
re-org changes started.


 2) Every new committer automatically gets added to the pmc.

I would recommend a probation period, JAMES tends to let people find their
feet as commiters then propose them for the PMC.
Sometimes its weeks sometimes months, but recently it is everyone and
having people eased in seems to work well.

d.


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Re: site change checked in, can't do svn up

2006-08-04 Thread Danny Angus
Idiot

  patepstry

WTF!? Tapestry obviously.

/Idiot :-D :-D

d.


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Re: site change checked in, can't do svn up

2006-08-04 Thread Danny Angus

thx Martin.
(I can't ssh anywhere from behind work firewall.)

On 04/08/06, Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

You have to do that on people.apache.org in the /www/jakarta.apache.org/site 
directory...
I done the update for you already :)


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Re: adding a link from commons.apache.org to Jakarta Commons?

2006-03-24 Thread Danny Angus


-


robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on
23/03/2006 20:30:12:


 i think that we need to start breaking the legal and formal organisation
 from the ontological. all the components in the various commons across
 apache are similar in many ways. users should really need to care which
 particular committee is charged with oversight.

Well said matey, I've said it a few times but it never seems to translate
into anything that we can get behind and do stuff to achieve.

...snip...(good stuff, but I'm supposed to be working ;-)


 i like administration being decentralised: any suitable component in any
 apache project could join just by declaring the category in the DOAP.

Fits with the lazy principle, having enthusiastic users harrasing a hard
pressed volunteer administrator is a model we see time and again round
here, but isn't exactly the most elegant way to do things, incentivise it,
delegate the effort to the people who's goals will be achieved

d.



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

2006-03-17 Thread Danny Angus
On 16/03/06, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Poorly explained by me. The file would be deleted once it had served its
 purpose.

Oh OK my misunderstanding, that changes things a bit.

An alternative is a mail thread to which everyone must answer to
 remain on the PMC - however a file in SVN is a lot simpler to keep track
 of.

... but mail leaves an audit trail.
  Danny proposes to de-select Robert (just an example mate, I'd never do
  that:-).
  a)No votes cast. Robert goes.
  b)Some people vote +1 but Robert votes -1. He gets to stay.

 Nope, he gets to leave. A -1 from the person involved would quite simply
 be a resignation, which can happen at any time.

Sorry, should've said the vote would be:

I believe that the following PMC members should be removed from the
PMC following an extended period of inactivity, this in no way
reflects badly upon the high regard they, or their contributions, are
held by this PMC.
The votes will be tallied accorrding to lazy consensus, meaning any -1
will be a veto.
Person X +1[ ] -1[ ]

  This is safe from the POV that it doesn't strip people of PMC membership
  unless no-one cares enough to do anything.

 It's not as if it's hard to get back on if anyone cares to rejoin.

Maybe, but we need to be clear about that.

  It achieves its goal with minimum effort on the part of the active PMC
  members.
  The mail thread recording the decision is archived in the same place and
  the same manner as all the other decisions we take.

 That's a good one. We can record the results of the svn file in an email
 too.

Ok, good enough.


  The process which resulted in their election to the PMC is (more or less)
  followed in reverse.

 Symmetry is nice - but whether someone stays on the PMC or not should
 really be up to just themselves - +1 means stay, -1 means go, no reply
 means go after a suitable period of time.

Yeah, just reverse that,and  -1 means stay, anything else means go
*now* removing the vagueness inherent in  a suitable period of time.


  Cons are:

 It's a lot of mail. Lot of work to collate that.

Yeah, only if people vote, this would work best where only those
people who wanted to stay actually voted to veto their removal. If you
pick the right list then it can work with no votes at all being cast.

d.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Cleanup pmc members

2006-03-16 Thread Danny Angus
Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 16/03/2006 08:14:08:

 My proposal is that we create a file in SVN in which PMC members can list

 themselves as being active. After 1 month, failure to appear in that list

 will result in removal from the PMC. If it goes well we could consider
 doing it periodically, or just when it feels like the numbers are getting

 out of sync again.

My thought is this...

1/ we have a process for decision making - email votes.
1a/ we don't have a process for managing your file, and anyway it would
still require mail to be involved.

2/ we should use what works
3/ we know we're lazy so lets factor that in.

What I think might be a better solution would be that we periodically vote
to de-select named pmc members.
The votes are tallied per lazy-consensus.

Scenarios are...

Danny proposes to de-select Robert (just an example mate, I'd never do
that:-).
a)No votes cast. Robert goes.
b)Some people vote +1 but Robert votes -1. He gets to stay.
c)Robert doesn't vote but someone else knows why he's temporarily unable to
contribute so votes -1, He stays.

Pros are:

This is safe from the POV that it doesn't strip people of PMC membership
unless no-one cares enough to do anything.
It achieves its goal with minimum effort on the part of the active PMC
members.
The mail thread recording the decision is archived in the same place and
the same manner as all the other decisions we take.
The process which resulted in their election to the PMC is (more or less)
followed in reverse.

Cons are:

It is open to abuse, there is no restriction on the people who can be
proposed or the frequency that votes can be called. This would be mitigated
by the fact that many of us are not as daft as we look.
It's legitimacy could be challenged unless it was documented somewhere.
Then again if someone was especially belligerent they could challenge
anything I suppose, and I guess that the issue could be escalated to the
board.

d.


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RE: Jakarta stats

2006-01-13 Thread Danny Angus
Noel, Happy new year,
Inactive as a commiter, which I took to be the definition Henri used.
As a member I can (and will) still actively monitor and interfere in
Jakatra PMC business, and I lurk with occasional posts on a few project
lists, I'm no shrinking violet and in theory I can get all the karma I want
(mua-ha-ha) but in practice I don't have anything very tangible to
contribute to Jakarta anymore and much less time in which to contribute it.
What I wondered was whether or not my having a PMC seat as an emeritus
commiter could be seen as in any way holding the project back.

d.


---
Danny Angus
Lead Technical Consultant
ICT Products Development
4W - Ext: 33257
Direct Dial: +44 (0) 141 243 3257



|-+
| |   Noel J. Bergman|
| |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
| |   |
| ||
| |   12/01/2006 05:53 |
| |   PM   |
| |   Please respond to|
| |   Jakarta General |
| |   List|
|-+
  
-|
  | 
|
  |   To:   Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org 
|
  |   cc:   
|
  |   Subject:  RE: Jakarta stats   
|
  
-|




Danny Angus wrote:

 I'm one of the 1) Inactive PMC members

Define inactive.  Inactive as a committer?  Inactive as a PMC member
providing oversight to Jakarta projects?  I'm in the former category, as
are
many, but I still actively monitor several project lists, even if I only
post when I have something specific to contribute.

 --- Noel


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Re: Jakarta stats

2006-01-13 Thread Danny Angus
Martin wrote:
 The result can be a couple of things (probably depending on the response)
:

 - Vote on them (?)

I think the most straightforward thing is simply to announce that a vote
will be held for which the rules are that more than a quorum of +1's and no
-1's are required to remove a PMC member to emeritus status, with
reinstatement being achieved by vote on application.

In this way any less active (by which I don't mean older ;-) PMC member
could assert their right to remain by voting -1and vetoing their removal,
or confirm their agreement by voting +1.
In theory any PMC member who is made emeritus against their will by this
action has also demonstrated that they aren't paying enough attention.

Jakarta has always been a meritocracy, often described as the more you do
the more responsibility you will obtain IMHO to achieve balance and
vitality at the top the converse should also be true, the less you do the
more responsibility you wll lose.

d.


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Re: Jakarta stats

2006-01-12 Thread Danny Angus


I'm one of the 1) Inactive PMC members  :  39

For historical reasons I made it onto this PMC just as the project I was
really involved with (James) got promoted to TLP.
I hung around to try to help make sure that Jakarta didn't die as a result
of all the reorganisation, and wasn't killed off because we failed to
provide adequate oversight while we carried out the controlled expansion of
the PMC.
On the one hand I think it may be time for me to move on, on the other hand
I think that Jakarta PMC might benefit from the continuity provided by
letting the interest of me and the others like me fade away as Jakarta
continues to evolve.

Whatever I think, I would happily relinquish my PMC vote if the active PMC
members think it would help in any way.

d.



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Re: GMANE

2005-09-02 Thread Danny Angus

I agree with Martin (below)
While we might not want to prevent people accessing our lists using these
services the only *official* method is to subscribe.

d.



 3. easiest path to posting a question to a list that you're not a member
of,
 examining the responses, and then leaving.

IMHO, this is actually a reason to *not* provide a link to Gmane on our
site, since it's anti-community, and community is what we are about.


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Re: Copyright line in code submissions

2005-07-28 Thread Danny Angus
Yeah +1, create it and we can create an IANAL mail storm ;-)

We can create an FAQ based upon our own misunderstanding, because at
least it will get the misunderstanding out in the open and allow it to
be reviewed and corrected by those who know about such things.

Would it be possible to have legal-faq commit mails sent to
legal-discuss? It might help encourage the right people to review it.


d.

On 27/07/05, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 On Wed, 27 Jul 2005, robert burrell donkin wrote:
 
  i follow the licensing list. IIRC there was a plan to create a legal FAQ
  for committers. i might volunteer to set something in motion...
 
 +1, meaning create it and I'll offer ideas/additions/suggestions :)
 
 Hen
 
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Re: Copyright line in code submissions

2005-07-26 Thread Danny Angus
Robert wrote:

i sometimes find it hard to work out where opinion stops and policy
begins...

Then again... it is surely the PMC's business to know or find out, and
enforce?

I mean, IANAL but as a manager I would think that if the PMC is charged
with oversight it is surely marginally better for the PMC as a body to
mis-interpret and mis-enforce centrally than for there to be n different
personal mis-interpretations of legal requirements of all kinds.

I would have thought that a jakarta web-page of legal FAQ would at least
allow us to have an auditable standard, and if the standard is wrong it
should then be wrong for all to see, wrong everywhere to the same degree
and require one fix, rather than a big analysis effort up front.

just my 2c..

d.



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Re: Name for commons-like area for web

2005-06-27 Thread Danny Angus
Web Components.

+1

It is what it says it is.
Even to those who's first language may not be English.

d.


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Re: VOTE: Tomcat - TLP

2005-04-07 Thread Danny Angus

+1

Danny Angus (Jakarta PMC Member)


On Apr 6, 2005 4:36 PM, Ian F. Darwin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 As has been discussed on this list  on tomcat-dev, the Tomcat people
 are interested in moving up.

 Attached please find a Resolution to this effect from the proposed new
 Tomcat PMC to the Board.

 This is a binding procedural vote to be decided by a simple majority of
 those eligible and casting votes (as per
 http://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html).  All current members of
 the Jakarta PMC have binding votes.  Since this involves creation of a
 new project I believe we should give people a week to vote; votes must
 therefore be registered by midnight Eastern time on Wednesday, 13 April
 2005.

 At that point we will tally the votes and, if the vote is in the
 affirmative, forward the Resolutions to the Board.

 The question:
 I vote in support of the proposal to move Tomcat to an Apache Top
 Level Project as
 detailed in the attached Resolution.

 [  ] +1 Vote in support
 [  ]  0   Abstain
 [  ] -1  Vote against

 Thanks.
 Ian Darwin

 --- Draft TLP Resolution ---
 Establish the Apache Tomcat Project

WHEREAS, the Board of Directors deems it to be in the best
interests of the Foundation and consistent with the
Foundation's purpose to establish a Project Management
Committee charged with the creation and maintenance of
open-source software related to the implementation of the
Java Servlet and Java Server Pages specifications, for
distribution at no charge to the public.

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, that a Project Management
Committee (PMC), to be known as the Apache Tomcat PMC, be and
hereby is established pursuant to Bylaws of the Foundation; and
be it further

RESOLVED, that the Apache Tomcat PMC be and hereby is
responsible for the creation and maintenance of software
related to creation and maintenance of open-source software
related to the implementation of the Java Servlet and Java
Server Pages specifications based on software licensed to
the Foundation; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the office of Vice President, Apache Tomcat be
and hereby is created, the person holding such office to serve
at the direction of the Board of Directors as the chair of the
Apache Tomcat PMC, and to have primary responsibility for
management of the projects within the scope of responsibility
of the Apache Tomcat PMC; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the persons listed immediately below be and
hereby are appointed to serve as the initial members of the
Apache Tomcat PMC:

Jean-Francois Arcand ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Bill Barker ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Kin-man Chung ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Jean-Frederic Clere ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Ian Darwin ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Tim Funk ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Henri Gomez ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Filip Hanik ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Larry Isaacs ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Jim Jagielski ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Jan Luehe ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Costin Manolache ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Remy Maucherat ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Kurt Miller ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Glenn Nielsen ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Amy Roh ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Peter Rossbach ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Yoav Shapira ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Mark Thomas ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Mladen Turk ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Keith Wannamaker ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, that Remy Maucherat
be appointed to the office of Vice President, Apache Tomcat, to
serve in accordance with and subject to the direction of the
Board of Directors and the Bylaws of the Foundation until
death, resignation, retirement, removal or disqualification, or
until a successor is appointed; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Tomcat PMC be and hereby is
tasked with the creation of a set of bylaws intended to
encourage open development and increased participation in the
Apache Tomcat Project; and be it further

RESOLVED, that the initial Apache Tomcat PMC be and hereby is
tasked with the migration and rationalization of
the Apache Jakarta PMC Tomcat subproject; and be it further

RESOLVED, that all responsibility pertaining to
the Jakarta Tomcat sub-project and encumbered upon
the Apache Jakarta PMC are hereafter discharged.

 --- End draft TLP resolution ---

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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Danny Angus

Remy wrote:

 I am definitely contributing to Tomcat as part of my employment at
 JBoss. I am not contributing on my own free time to Tomcat as an
 individual at the moment, and (as far as I can remember, as it was a
 while ago ...) have submitted a company CLA reflecting that
 (http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas). Anyway, it is obvious Apache has
 the notion of company contributions. Stating otherwise is wrong, and
 does not match the legal documents the ASF uses.

Well said. I think that we do need to acknowledge the support employers
provide
by effectivly funding development.

However This still makes *you* personally the contributor, albeit funded by
JBOSS.
No doubt your own work is prioritised and your input to Tomcat is managed
by your
JBOSS boss. But that indirect setting of priorities is, as it should be,
the limit
of JBOSS influence on Tomcat through you.

 I think continuing with the current attitude would only lead my company
 to reevaluate its involvement in ASF projects, and I could not really
 blame them if they did. Of course, this may be what some people here
 seek (hopefully, it is not and it's just my paranoia at work).

From where I sit I would prefer to see a clear distinction between the fact
that
some people are funded to work on ASF projects under the auspice of the ASF
and the implied notion that the companies themselves somehow manage the
projects.

If this argument was about Sun or IBM or Oracle or Microsoft claiming to be
a lead
contributor we would surely want to clarify the independance of the
project's management
whilst also acknowedging the support it receives.

d.


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Re: [draft] SD Magazine: request for change

2005-03-21 Thread Danny Angus

 At this point, how about simply kicking me out and ending the problems
 faster ? Just one quick vote on board@ and any future issues disappear
 magically.

Oh grow up.
No one has criticised you, no one has complained that you are paid by
JBOSS,
no one has criticised your contributions, no one has prevented you from
expressing
your opinion in this debate or any other one, no one has suggested that you
pose any problem
at all.

The issue is not lets kick Remy out the issue is *only* that
The Apache Jakarta Project and leading Tomcat contributor JBoss
implys that JBOSS is not only a contributor, but *the* major contributor.

The fact is that JBOSS isn't a contributor, you guys are as individuals,
and if JBoss
gets this treatment then so should a load of other employers.

 I will not repent/apologize/atone/change my behavior, etc, nor ask my
 company to repent/apologize/atone/change its behavior, since I think
 they made all the necessary adjustments already.

Who amongst us can say that we're responsible for our employers actions, or
that we always think they are right?
Your bosses are big enough to take care of themselves.
Remy, no one would expect you to defend anything.

d.


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RE: FW: PMC contact for Wiki Admin

2005-02-18 Thread Danny Angus
 It is funny after all these years that the Apache meritocracy has only
 evolved to sending +1 votes via email. grin

Actually I think it is significant.

+1's etc. in emails fulfils 100% of our requirements, business, legal and
infrastructure, and is demonstrably accessable, robust and fault
tolerant.

d.


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Re: [site] Label for promoted Jakarta project

2005-01-13 Thread Danny Angus
We did remove the graduated TLP's  from the nav some while ago, I
think it was me who did it.
But put it back when people started asking for it, the idea was that
many people, including some of us tend to go to jakarta.apache first
and click links to get to ant, struts et-al.

I tend to think that if we're keeping the table of promoted projects
we should get away without the nav, replace it with a single link to
the table if you still want to satisfy the hidebound.

I think the rule could be, if we've had a link on jakarta.apache we'll
keep it, if not go to www.apache.

Sub projects can still list important related stuff in their own nav.

d.


On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 13:08:51 -0800, Will Glass-Husain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 As a lurker who's been watching this conversation I have a basic question -
 
 Do most visitors care about whether a project is graduated or related?
 
 If a new user comes from an up-to-date link (or book/article), they won't
 even be looking here.  If they see an out-of-date reference in to the
 jakarta site, usually it'll be to a direct URL (e.g.
 http://jakarta.apache.org/ant) which should just forward to the new URL.  I
 suspect only a few people will be searching on the Jakarta home page for
 ant, etc.  So why not just a simple prominent sentence Can't find what
 you're looking for?  Check the list of related projects at
 http://www.apache.org;.
 
 Cheers, WILL
 
 - Original Message -
 From: robert burrell donkin [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org
 Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2005 12:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [site] Label for promoted Jakarta project
 
  i'm not really sure there's any good solution to this one. the downside of
  ex-jakarta is that it's inaccurate: logging isn't really ex-jakarta since
  it contains more than log4j.
 
  i wonder whether we could fit in every apache project and just label it
  Apache Projects...
 
  - robert
 
  On 9 Jan 2005, at 00:42, Henri Yandell wrote:
 
 
  At the bottom of the left hand navbar is a section of projects that used
  to be a part of Jakarta. It used to be Related and is currently
  Graduated, but neither name has won fans.
 
  Martin has suggested 'Ex-Jakarta'. A problem with Graduated is that it
  involves explaining, and also that it is a poor label as it is not a
  noun. Ex-Jakarta wins on both of these.
 
  Ex-Jakarta has another advantage that I see, which is that things don't
  have to goto an Apache TLP to be Ex-Jakarta. OJB for example, in
  db.apache.org, or even to somewhere like Sourceforge.
 
  So, any opinions?
 
  Barring any -1's to Ex-Jakarta, I'll make the change on Wednesday night.
 
  Hen
 
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Re: [OT] Which Linux distribution for Java development?

2005-01-10 Thread Danny Angus
sorry I mistyped 1.2.4 for 1.4.2 !

 issue with RedHat
 Enterprise and J2sdk 1.2.4,


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Re: [OT] Which Linux distribution for Java development?

2005-01-07 Thread Danny Angus

 One thing you *may* care about is using certified Java VM.

You should also be aware that there are issues with combinations of JVM and
Linux, at work we're still trying to resolve an issue with RedHat
Enterprise and J2sdk 1.2.4, and there were significant issues with certain
earlier redhat and 1.3 combinations.

That said these tend not to be noticable in development, and only bite you
in the arse when you proudly set your work free and watch it fail to cope
with heavy load or fail to achieve high uptimes

But as they we say in English, c'est la vie!

d.


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Re: [site] clean up

2005-01-06 Thread Danny Angus
Robert,

 and is any planning needed so that no toes are stepped on?

An advance heads-up would warn other projects which might link to those
pages. Though as a redirect wouldn't break the links I guess its not that
important, James has been bitten by Jakarta changes before, though I hasten
to add it is James' own fault for not moving quick enough, and anyway I
don't think this would affect James.

d.


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Re: [site] next step - 3-tier + welcome

2005-01-06 Thread Danny Angus


 So either: a) we should roll back to the table style for header and
 footer for the moment; or b) we should just ignore it and wait for
 complaints to come in :)

snip

 Does a) sound okay?

When you sell it like that its unopposable!

d.


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Re: Last call for comments Was: [site] next step - 3-tier + welcome

2005-01-06 Thread Danny Angus
 There are a couple of tweaky things - like the font seems a little
 bigger than it needs to be,

I twiddled with James css y'day, I think the fonts there are finally OK
http://james.apache.org the (extremely simple) css is in svn if you
want to look.

I'd be interested in theiveing the 3tier xsl though, see if it can
help me with James'  excessive whitespace.. where can I find it?

d.

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Re: jakarta-site2 now live on xslt

2005-01-05 Thread Danny Angus
FYI James uses XSLT with no dependance on Anakia or Jakarta-site


On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 09:02:23 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 On Mon, 3 Jan 2005, sebb wrote:
 
  On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 19:15:59 -0500 (EST), Henri Yandell
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
  On Sun, 2 Jan 2005, sebb wrote:
 
  Looks like a *lot* of other projects use the Anakia jars and/or
  stylesheets from jakarta-site2 - not just jakarta-tomcat-site...so
  perhaps those need to be restored.
 
  Sites with the older lf:
 
  Taglibs, Velocity, BSF, ECS, JMeter, Lucene, ORO, Regexp, Slide, Tomcat,
  Watchdog.
 
  However, the following all appear to be self contained/non-users:
 
  Taglibs, Velocity, BSF, Watchdog, Slide.
 
  Sorry, should have remembered that, as it used to apply to jmeter...
 
  + JMeter.
 
  So the broken ones look like they are Tomcat, Regexp, ORO, Lucene, ECS.
 
 
  I did a search for the string jakarta-site2 in the build.xml,v files
  in CVS, and that produced quite a lot of hits (see
  http://www.apache.org/~sebb/js2.txt - note that the matched text is
  *followed* by the file name).
 
  Some of the matches relate to history items, but some are in the HEAD
  versions of the files, for example:
 
  http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/ant/proposal/ant-site/anakia/build.xml?only_with_tag=HEADview=markup
 
  http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/jakarta-commons/httpclient/build.xml?only_with_tag=HEADview=markup
 
  Of course we don't know if the build targets are actually still used,
  but it suggests that these files are rather more generally used.
 
 Both HttpClient and Ant appear to use Maven or Forrest for their sites
 though, so I'd think it's a pretty low chance that they still use things.
 
 I think all of Commons is Mavenised, and I checked all of Jakarta in this
 way to find old style lf and then examined those by hand. Looking at the
 graduated projects, Struts and James still look old style; so they've got
 a good chance of still using site2.
 
 Looking at them, both Struts and James appear to be on XSLT variants, but
 no use of the site2 jars or stylesheets.
 
 Still, not to say that others in your list don't use it, such as jyve or
 various proposals in James etc, just nothing 'big' I think.
 
 Hen
 
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Re: Lessons Learned

2004-12-10 Thread Danny Angus

Richard,
Hi.


 I was wondering; what are the lessons learned?

Everything you see is a lesson learned, what you see in practice is our
best, but still admittedly flawed, practice.

 If you were starting all over today, what things would you have
 done differently? What are the blind alleys?

I'm not sure that there is much, some practices have evolved and others
have been abandoned or withered away, management structures are changing,
but I suspect they always change for any project OS or commercial which has
some life about it.
I've set up commercial projects for former employees based upon the Apache
Way and they do tend to work, it is all about empowering people to make
the decisions which they are best placed to make, but at the same time
ensuring peer review and oversight to ensure consistency and quality.

The important thing to remember is that you're working with volunteers,
hell we're all volunteers, and if you suceed they'll all be way smarter,
and busier, than you are. So you have to keep the bar to contribution low.
It must be easy for anyone who has the knowledge you need to contribute it.
Keep the need for knowledge as close to the focus of you project as you
can, don't make people have to learn how to use new technology just to
participate. Don't have a requirement which makes people spend money or
sign contracts in order to become a first class citizen. Value each and
every contributor highly, judge people only on their merit.

Keep it simple. Keep it public. Have one official communication channel for
decision making, we use well publicised mailinglists for a reason, and
stick to it, keep traffic on the lists so that everone can see whats going
on now and what went on in the past.

Encourage anyone to contribute, create a welcoming culture but let people
earn your trust, don't form a clique. Don't form a clique. Don't patronise
or underestimate people just because they can't use the tool or don't have
english as their native tounge. Always try to get consensus. Have a clear
and acceptable policy for expelling people and then try your damnedest not
to ever invoke it.

Make sure your product is in demand and of high quality.

 Also, I have been researching and designing the build
 process for these various projects. I've looked into
 using Maven, in particular. It looks like you guys are
 using Ant to drive your build process ~ are the
 reasons based on history or did maven not provide the
 flexibility you wanted? Do you like the way you are
 generating your websites right now?

Actually it is a decison made by the people who are going to use it, don't
constrain people by imposing unnecessary boundaries. Opinion is mixed about
how we generate the sites its not perfect (having several different
processes each with its own strengths and weaknesses) but it works enough
to get the job done.

If you look around you'll see that as well as Maven and Ant there are a
range of choices made by sub-projects and other Apache projects about how
to manage this that or the other part of the lifecycle. Not all projects
use the same version labelling, though most use a variation on a theme, not
everyone uses the same wiki or bug tracking tool, though there are Apache
systems available, it a matter of taste. As long as you are clear about
what you are doing and what the benefit is, can justify it, and it doesn't
raise legal or security issues there's no real reason why you shouldn't do
it.
There is an infrastructure which provides mailing lists, wiki, version
control, web servers etc. But there are few hard and fast rules about what
you *must* do or how you *must* do it. Those that there are are there
largely for security and legal reasons, everything else is decided on its
merits often from bitter experience.

Jakarta is a meritocracy, I believe that that is why it works. But I think
the real lesson for you is, don't ask *us*, have a look at what we do but
ask your own community to make these choices.

d.


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RE: Mail list page

2004-12-01 Thread Danny Angus
 I'd be happy to see watchdog intrest directed to general@

d.



|-+
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| |   .com|
| ||
| |   01/12/2004 03:19 |
| |   PM   |
| |   Please respond to|
| |   Jakarta General |
| |   List|
| ||
|-+
  
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  | 
  |
  |   To:   Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
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Hola,

The watchdog-dev mail list appears to be gone (which makes sense). Is
there a list left for Watchdog, should its entry direct people to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Watchdog-dev is gone.  Watchdog-user is still around, but with no
moderation and minimal to no activity.  It's time to direct people to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I think, following our discussion along these lines from
about six months ago
(http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=108659921622873w=2).

If anything, Watchdog is more dead now than it was six months ago,
because its only user at that time (Tomcat) is no longer a user.  And
I'd like to not have to monitor watchdog-user anymore, although if Danny
wants to stay no top of it of course he's welcome to ;)

Yoav Shapira http://www.yoavshapira.com




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Re: Future JDK features - performance and stability

2004-10-29 Thread Danny Angus
On Fri, 29 Oct 2004 08:11:03 -0700, Dain Sundstrom
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 +10

I make that 10 trillion. Did I hit a nerve there Dain? !

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Re: Future JDK features 2 items

2004-10-28 Thread Danny Angus
Dain wrote:

 I understand what you are saying, but do you believe that Sun could
 actually get such a feature right?

I take your point, and tend to think not. I don't believe that Sun would
get it right first time, not if we consider their track record.

 So, yes, I am arguing that no feature is better than a
 poorly implemented feature.

I wholeheartedly support that point of view! core Java is pretty much OK,
and doesn't really have the issues that would justify the risk (of
implementing poorly and requiring re-working later) involved with new
features for which accepted work arounds exist.

I personally don't like the prospect that Java is heading for bloat, and
would much rather see Sun spend its time fixing the JVM than mucking about
with core Java.
(but I'll start a new thread for that one..)


d.


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Future JDK features - performance and stability

2004-10-28 Thread Danny Angus
This is a bit of a rant, I know but...
One thing I would like to see Sun do, from the point of view of my previous
role at work, would be to devote more effort to improving the stability and
performance of the Hotspot VM on
all platforms.

From what I can see are a number of defects in the Hotspot VM that
seriously affect the capapacity of many server products to achieve high
uptimes and high throughputs. Is this experience borne out by anyone else
here?

Could we see some clarification of the garbage collection and optimisation
mechanisms? It seems to me that there are a very large number of poorly
documented options for garbage collection and optimisations which are
neither specification features nor implementation features, but are in wide
use by many people who are struggling to maintain high levels of service in
the real world in the face of defects and failure of the JVM to behave as
documented.

One example is the permanent generation size, Sun tell us that allocations
in the permanent generation will continue up to the maximum size of the
permanent space, at which point further allocations will be from the
tenured heap space.
Seems sensible so far.
However it appears that requests for permanent allocation trigger a full
garbage collection when they cannot be satisfied in the permanent
generation, this leads to the JVM thrashing and effectively defeats the
notion that tenured space could be used as an overflow.
The fact that this was not documented is almost as serious because it
removes some of the imperative which might otherwise encourage us to
profile not only hepa usage but also permanent generation requirements.

d.


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Re: FW: RE: Future JDK features 2 items

2004-10-27 Thread Danny Angus
 Where's the advantage of a method pointer?

 Maybe Mr. Angus wasn't going here, but behind my
 concept was work I have done in C/C++ with arrays
 of function-through-pointer for varied functionality
 depending on context.

Yes. It was in order to provide much more dynamic variation in behaviour,
but also to have that dynamism encapsulated by the implementing class.

A class would implement an interface as usual, but could dynamically return
a different method implementation from a set of methods declared internally
without recourse to multiple interfaces or classes defined purely to
provide an alternative implementation of an internal method.

I can't see why we persist in putting up with the existing long-winded
approach of defining single method inner or anonymous classes just so that
we can select a method implementation dynamically.

Other languages provide support for this kind of behaviour, and I don't
believe it needs to break any OO principles if it is properly designed.


 This approach [anonymous classes] might do the job just as well.
 What say you, Danny Angus?

It works, obviously, but it contains more meaningless boilerplate code for
structure than significant code for behaviour.
Additionally if you have a number of less trivial methods implemented it
becomes very hard for a programmer to understand the context of the block
they are working in.

Is it not true that when writing this stuff both IDE's and people have
difficulty working out exactly which set of braces to close and when?



  The main difference is that in the earlier piece of code methods are
wrapped
  in inner classes, which amounts to about 30 additional characters you
have to
  type: class FooBar { ... } implements I for each class, one
instantiation
  for each class and a common interface.

Yeah, and my point is why do we have to put up with this...

d.


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Re: Future JDK features 2 items

2004-10-27 Thread Danny Angus

Dain wrote:

 If you want method pointers today, just get a good byte code generation
 tool.

Yeah I know, and I seriously believe that workarounds such as this do more
to harm the so-called purity of Java than providing explicit language
level mechanisms for method pointers.

The AWT moved from Events to delegation in 1.1
Since then I have always wondered why we are compelled to delegate to
Classes implementing interfaces rather than Methods implementing specified
method signatures.

It leads to alot of structural code which obfuscates functional code, and a
lot of unnecessary plumbing to route conditional execution after the method
has been invoked.

Why can't we drop the extra structures and apply our pre-conditions before
the method is invoked?

d.


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Future JDK features 2 items

2004-10-26 Thread Danny Angus

1/ Ok don't flame me... Method pointers

I *know* it is possible to accomplish all the delegation one might want by
using polymorphism, but this often leads to unncessary screeds of
boiler-plate,
so I still I believe there is a case for some kind of streamlining of
delegation by allowing it to be achieved on a method level rather than at a
class level.

For instance it might make sense for a Class to provide several sort
methods, polymorphism would require this class to implement a different
interface for each one, function pointers could be used instead to have a
method take a parameter and return a refrence to the appropriate method
thereby correctly (IMHO) encapsulating the decision/conditions within the
class and not exposing it externally.

2/ Jar versioning

Lets see a JVM which has the capability to accept simultaneous registration
of multiple versions of a package and resolve them to satisfy dependence
with an appropriate version, and without breaking the classloader model
we've grown to love (or perhaps merely accept!).
The version resolution could be,
by default the most recent,
where specified to the classloader by specification version the most
recent implementation of the spec
by implementation version a specific version.

Manifests could specify inter-package dependance declaratively.

This would surely be a huge boon to integration.

(P.S. I'd love to contribute to either idea...)

d


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Re: Can I use Hibernate in an Apache project without compromising the Apache License?

2004-09-29 Thread Danny Angus

 The problem is that for java, there are questions about the clarity of
 the provisions in the license that prevent the virality from taking
 effect, which is why the ASF doesn't allow LGPLed java usage.


I believe that a specific example is implementing an interface where the
interface is LGPL, the question of whether or not your work is a derivative
work is one for the lawyers.

d


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Re: [VOTE] Updating PMC bylaws

2004-08-11 Thread Danny Angus
+1

d.
Danny Angus







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RE: Updating the PMC bylaws

2004-08-09 Thread Danny Angus
  But those projects won't have 3
 active committers.  Watchdog and ECS are good examples.

IMO The Watchdog debate, that resulted in you and I accepting a monitoring
role, is a good outcome.
Basically Jakarta is a single ASF project, the PMC is responsible for
everything, and the notion of herierchy and delegation are being phased
out.
Therefore we can insist upon PMC members as active commiters on active
projects, but that doesn't mean that the converse, we must have active
commiters on inactive projects, is true. We must have PMC members as active
participants, but participation on an inactive project is as little as
monitoring the mail and acting as the first point of contact for anyone who
wants to revitalise the project, or providing a heads-up to the rest of the
PMC should any issue arise.
I don't think we need do more than close the mailing lists of inactive
projects and direct people to this (general@) list as long as we can be
confident that someone here will take an interest in any mail that arrives.
Don't forget that PMC members have karma (or the right to be given karma)
for all of the sub-projects, meaning that (a) no subproject should ever be
without a PMC member/commiter and (b) by making the distinction be  active
comiters we're making a rod for our own backs, when we could ask for
active participants and allow PMC members to be included in the audit of
accountability even if they only read and respond to mail.

d.



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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

2004-06-07 Thread Danny Angus





Noel,


But I don't think that we need a separate TLP for it.  I would leave
the project in the community that last hosted the now dormant project.

Good point, perhaps we just need to organise ourselves.
d.



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Re: [Watchdog] Dead?

2004-06-07 Thread Danny Angus




Geir wrote:

 Well, I'm a little leery about sending watchdog traffic (even if none)
 to general@ - all it takes is one guy getting interested :)

(My silence was due to temporary no-email-at-home, not indifference!)

I'd prefer to propose the following:

1/ that a PMC vote is taken *HERE* to decide if the community is happy to
see Watchdog downgraded to inactive

2/ If we get the expected Yes then we note the status on the website
(watchdog and jakarta-site)

3/ we then replace the dev list with an autoresponder to the effect that
this project is not under active development and the place for discussion
is the user list.

4/ Yoav and I subscribe to and monitor the users list, on behalf of the PMC

5/ if people turn up and look keen to re-activate the development we
reactivate the dev list and start voting for new commiters



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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

2004-06-07 Thread Danny Angus




Noel wrote:
  We leave the resources in place, with a notice that the project is
 dormant.  If it is revitalized, great.  If not, what harm is there?

To me it seems like an opportunity for part of jakarta to fall out of PMC
oversight.
I'm not suggesting that there is any legal controversy looming, but suppose
there were, are we really confident that we would be aware of it?
To remedy that all we really need is to ensure that there are eyes on it,
and that if they go they ensure that someone else picks it up.


d.



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Re: [Watchdog] Dead?

2004-06-07 Thread Danny Angus






 I don't think that working, used-by-users code is 'dead'.  There may
 not be an active community of developers, but if the code is done, it's
 done.

I agree. I think we should consider it as the caretakeing of the user
community of a stable product, and if it ever arises, the sponsors of a new
developers community.

d.



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RE: [Watchdog] Dead?

2004-06-04 Thread Danny Angus





 First of all, I'm curious to know what you think incubation has to do
with
 dormant projects.

It's the opposite.

 Secondly, I'm not one who favors closing an open source project.  Ever.
I
 didn't really agree with closing java.apache.org.  Although I do agree
with
 closing that domain, in retrospect, I'd have moved the content to
Jakarta.
 In my view, dormant projects should have their scm resources left in
place,
 and can have their mailing addresses reflected to a communal list, such
as
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (or community@, although I a separate address
 might be better).

I think you're right, remember that we do need to have someone somewhere
answerable to the board and with oversight over any project which has
public resources, whether it is active, maintenance only or unsupported
end-of-life.

To that end a dis-incubator seemed like a good idea around the time the
apache incubator was formed.

It would have a lot less to do, probably little more than list moderation,
but it would give people the comfort feel that someone somewhere would be
alerted to potential issues with projects which no longer have or need a
community. If enough interest is shown in a retired project it can be
re-vitalised by a visit to the incubator..

FWIW I would be happy to volunteer my time for this.

d.





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Re: Why use maillists??

2004-04-16 Thread Danny Angus






 why does the Apache/Jakarta project still uses maillist?
 It's a technology that was used before the invention of WWW.

And boy does it ever work!
I've worked on a number of commercial projects which are managed in a
similar way to accomodate dispersed teams.
It works, we like it, get used to it.

 Everyone get's your eMail address, therefore you get spammed all the time
 the and it's very inconvenient to use.

Use gmane for a mail to news gateway.

 Every student homepage has got it's own forum now, so why not
 Apache/Jakarta??

Because of all the alternatives you might have chosen forums *really*
suck.

 I think this prooves again that Open Source is still a geek project and
far
 away from a professional managed software project.

There are two views to this, one is that many, many, professionally managed
software projects count Apache amongst their role models for team
management, in fact some of the most commercial and largest software
companies in the world are having to adopt a managerial approach similar to
OS project management in order to compete.

The other view is that OS is indeed about geek projects, thats the point,
pointy haired bosses can't write software, pointy haired bosses make us
write bad software by adding irrelevant distractions like deadlines and
dumb requirements.

OTOH any pointy haired boss who has a valuable contribution to make can
turn up and make it. If it is of any genuine value it will probably be
adopted, and they can be elected onto a project as commiters. We probably
have quite a few, busily writing software for Apache and keeping their
pointy haired nonsense for their day jobs ;-)

d.



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RE: Jakarta embracing the JCP?

2004-03-22 Thread Danny Angus







 Having named leads of any sort is the antithesis of what I would like
to
 see within the ASF.

Fair enough, but there's no reason I can see why a JCP lead shouldn't be
an OSS chair, I guess the JCP needs spec leads like the ASF needs
chairpeople, to be a single point of refrence from above and a single focus
for oversight from below.
I'm sure that a great many of us work in teams with a team leader who isn't
an autocratic megalomaniac, but largely the point of contact between
above and below

d.



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Re: Apache should join the open source java discussion

2004-03-18 Thread Danny Angus





 What about starting by making sure Apache java projects _do_ work with
 the 2 open source JVMs that are mentioned in the
 article ?

This is a fine idea, if we're bending the rules to the extent that our
stuff won't run on any specifications compliant JVM we should address that,
particularly so where it is an OS JVM.

Conversely where our stuff doesn't work on an OS JVM because the JVM is at
fault we should feed that back to the developers so they can make their
project stronger.

I hate to think how many defects have been identified and resolved in Sun's
JVM as a result of ASF projects, lets make that same benefit available to
OS projects too.

d.



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Re: [VOTE] HiveMind as a Jakarta sub-project

2004-03-03 Thread Danny Angus





[X] +1  I support this proposal
[ ] -1  I don't support this proposal
[ ]  0  I abstain from voting for or against this proposal


d.




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Re: [VOTE] HiveMind as a Jakarta sub-project

2004-03-03 Thread Danny Angus




I see people marking there votes as BINDING, just for the record my +1 is
binding too.



|-+
| |   Danny Angus  |
| |   [EMAIL PROTECTED]|
| |   co.uk   |
| ||
| |   03/03/2004 03:25 |
| |   PM   |
| |   Please respond to|
| |   Jakarta General |
| |   List|
| ||
|-+
  
---|
  |
   |
  |   To:   Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  |
  |   cc:  
   |
  |   Subject:  Re: [VOTE] HiveMind as a Jakarta sub-project   
   |
  
---|









[X] +1  I support this proposal
[ ] -1  I don't support this proposal
[ ]  0  I abstain from voting for or against this proposal


d.




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chairmen..

2004-02-23 Thread Danny Angus

If its not too patronising of me I'd like to propose vote of thanks to Sam as outgoing 
chair,

Sam, I know you've been more involved elsewhere lately, but from a personal point of 
view I've learned to respect and appreciate the low-key, mature and consensus building 
way in which you have steered Jakarta through a period of great change. You have 
worked hard to ensure that allegations of conservatism couldn't be levelled at 
Jakarta, and have sucessfully encouraged project after project to grow up and follow 
their own star. If more of us were more like you we'd've achieved so much more by now. 
Thanks its appreciated.

On a related note, welcome Geir, I'm sure you can count on us to continue to be a 
bunch of cranky opinionated blowhards who couldn't reach a real decision if our lives 
depended upon it. :-)

d.





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Re: compressed body in HTTP POST request; using Jabber for IM

2004-02-11 Thread Danny Angus





 We were thinking of using either Tomcat or JBoss for the server,

Unless you're not going to use http with JBOSS You'll find that JBOSS is
Bundled with Tomcat for the web app container..

From my extensive and brain deadening reading of the MIME rfcs I don't
think you be violating the spec you quote if you used *any* legal MIME
content-type (including X- ones), you might find that it just isn't
supported at both ends.. Hmm.

You could easily, and usefully, extend Tomcat to add this if it is not
present.

d.



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Re: compressed body in HTTP POST request; using Jabber for IM

2004-02-11 Thread Danny Angus






Aha.. misread content-encoding as content-type.. I suspect that gzip is
*not* an encoding, which is something like Base64, Uuencode or
Quoted-printable and is used to ensure that binary data will pass
unmolested through mail transport agents (MTA's) which are only required to
handle ASCII, and allowed to insert line breaks.

My advice would now be to investigate the MIME form data encoding, within
which gzip would be a valid Content-type, and could probably be ungzipped
by a filter.

d



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Re: RIA experiences

2004-02-04 Thread Danny Angus




Hi Henri,
I'm taking a serious look at Rich Internet Applications, and I'm
investigating using FlashMX as client.

Did some of you have some experiences on this ?

Yep, I've developed two server apps for Flash clients using XMLRPC
(http://www.proboscis.org.uk/urbantapestries/index.html is one project),
both projects made use of a framework which I wrote (at autonomous
software) which included code generation for object/rdb data access classes
and XMLRPC handlers.

From my POV (delivering the server) it was extremely sucessful, however
overall Flash's complete inability to handle XML efficiently meant that
when we compared our average calls' timing on a java client (built purely
for the comparison) and the Flash client there was up to a 10 fold increase
in time taken for a call on flash over java. In fact at some points Flash
appeared to hang and eventually came up with a dialogue proclaiming
something like flash is taking a very long time, do you want to abandon
this or continue?

Introducing timings into the mix revealed that it was Flash parsing the xml
response which was killing performance.
The problem increased exponentially with the size of the response.
My conclusion is that you have to either keep the response xml small and
make many short requests, or abandon xml or Flash in favour of something
more efficient. The XML RPC guys have been talking about using gz
compression on the XML, which would have helped us with bandwidth, our
clients were on limited bandwidth mobile devices, perhaps this would also
tip the balance in favour of making many small requests, but it wouldn't
address the woefully slow and hungry XML parsing of flash.

Perhaps soneone at xml.Apache would liek to write an actionscript xml
parser .

d.




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Re: New Project Proposal

2004-01-08 Thread Danny Angus




Chad,
 I am an IBM employee who has developed a new type of framework

Please first read: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
also read http://incubator.apache.org/

You might consider approching the incubator project (subscribe to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]) I would certainly suggest it as the best next
step for you.
You might consider contributing this to jakarta-commons.
Alternatively you might also consider approaching one of the existing
Jakarta sub-projects if you believe that there might be benefit in creating
a joint project combining the two things, or even of simply donating and
joining an existing sub-project.

Jakarta has a high bar for entry of new sub-projects, higher still since we
have been encouraged by the ASF board to flatten the structure of Apache.
This doesn't mean that we are unable or unwilling to consider new
sub-projects but it does mean that we might have to work hard to justify
it.

One final word of advice, Apache is not sourceforge, and whilst we do
welcome new projects it will require you to convince people of its worth
and you would do well to find someone who can champion your cause and do
some evangelising on your behalf.

d.



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Re: Listing on the Third Part Support for Jakarta Products

2004-01-06 Thread Danny Angus




Submit a patch to this list in the usual way.



 I would like to have our company listed under both Developer Support and
Complete Solutions Providers, with the following info:



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Website and Reorganisation language... a suggestion

2004-01-05 Thread Danny Angus




Hi,

I just had a Eureka moment, albeit a not very significant one, and I want
to brain dump...

I read this headine on TSS The Apache Jakarta team announces Lucene 1.3
Final

It set me to thinking about the issue of using product on the website
against the more correct, but less newbie friendly sub-project and the
notion that umbrella projects are not well thought of, and how we should
be dealing with it.

So I though Hey 'TEAM' is a *great* word.

To deal with the first thing first, Team might be a better word than
Product for headings on the website, you decide.

Secondly I think if we're going to go down the route of a single inclusive
project (discussed here and elsewhere ad-nauseam) we can retain some degree
of concrete identity for the (former) sub-projects by introducing the
notion of Teams so that Jakarta would be The project, and we'd all be on
the PMC and possibly have Karma throughout, etc.etc.  but we would also
belong to those Teams that suit us, so we'd have the Tomcat Team, the POI
Team etc. which would restore the small but necessary degree of separation
which (IMO) we really do need for the sake of sanity.

A Team would be a weak association (unlike the strong association of a
commiter to a codebase) of commiters and non-comitter contributors  who are
actively working on a code module, this would help to maintain the
distinction between those who are actively involved in the work of a module
and those who are also Jakarta comitters but whos current efforts are
focused on other code.
In terms of releases, direction, and the election of new commiters Teams
would have informal decision making by voting, and a Team's vote would
influence the authoritative decision of the PMC,  remember that *all* of
the Teams' comitters would have a binding vote on the PMC by this stage.
(otherwise what is the point!)

Think of a Team as being little more than the equivalent of the status
file, a list of participants and their area of activity, but consider  that
the notion of Teams would give an identity to the group without creating
the barriers and heirarchy that the notion of Sub-project does but creating
just enough of a distinction to allow a small group to make progress within
the context of a large project.

Teams would not be static or slowly expanding clubs for every participant
ever, but would represent the code module and the fluctuating sub-set of
our community currently active on it, if you want to step aside for a
month, take your name off the list, come back and add yourself again.

d.



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Re: [License] for jars in CVS

2004-01-02 Thread Danny Angus




 I see what you are saying, but why is this an issue only with OGNL? Is it
because of license
 incompatibilities? 'Cause there are other jars in CVS both Apache and
non-Apache.
Harish,

It isn't only an issue with OGNL, it is a general issue which has been
bubbling away for months.
In principle it is not good to have Jars in CVS. In practice it makes life
much easier for many people. There are moves afoot to produce some kind of
jar download site which would provide the convenience of automated
downloads with Ant or Maven, and comply with licence issues, and not
require jars to be in CVS, cvs is not great at handling binaries.

d.



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RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Danny Angus

 We should trust the judgment of our community, let each committer 
 decide for themselves, and then Jakarta be whatever Jakarta wants to be.

+1 I totally agree, and I would hope that no one seriously holds any other view.

Concern about oversight has been flagged as an issue for us to address and we are duty 
bound to explore the ways in which we can achieve this. 
I would hope that by debating the issue we are bringing it to the wider attention of 
our community, and disseminating fact and opinion (perhaps, indeed, for a third or 
fourth time) which will help to inform the actions of every commiter and PMC member 
and bring us closer to our goal without any radical or authoritarian steps being 
required. 
Frankly I would regard either step as being at best a partial failure, and at worst 
potentially more damaging to the community than any failure to _quickly_ resolve the 
situation. 
I still believe that by continuing to have an open debate we are making progress, and 
I hope that others can see how frank and honest examination of the various opinions 
and potential directions is in itself vital to bind and re-unify the project and 
engage the whole community in shaping our mutual future.

At the end of the day (Oh I hate it when I say that!) the most important asset we have 
is each other, and we have nothing to keep us here apart from the attraction of a 
healthy community, it is not bylaws or oversight or promotion that should be the focus 
of our efforts to restore some balance, rather it should be the community, and through 
the actions of a united community we will achieve the technical requirements of 
procedure and oversight in much the same way that a healty community will produce high 
quality software with very little management effort required.



d.


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Danny Angus

-1

I don't think the PMC should be doing anything other than encouraging sub-projects to 
*consider* TLP at this stage.

The proposal contains a number of detailed actions most of which I'd wholeheartedly 
support as they will help sub-projects to consider pro's and con's of promotion. 

However I think it is inappropriate to be talking about proactively encouraging 
proposal then vote. 
I would much rather that individuals who are active participants in the sub-project 
reach this stage, or don't, without having being prompted by the PMC.

For the record I think that many sub-projects would benefit from promotion, but not 
all of them, but I think the process would be made much harder is the sub-project is 
hustled into applying before the participants are really comfortable with the nature 
and consequences of the change.

d.


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RE: Indemnification of the PMC

2003-12-27 Thread Danny Angus
Stephen wrote,

 For example, am I in writing this email, acting in the capacity of a PMC 
 member, a committer, or an individual?


Seems to me that part of the reason it is difficult to resolve the issues confronting 
Jakarta is that several initial assumptions are required, and that these are not 
stated or clearly implied anywhere.

Greg assures us that the board aren't likely to act precipitately (if thats how you 
spell it), and we haven't had official communications from The Members of The Board 
on the topic, yet there are a lot of hints about the unsuitability of Jakarta's 
present organisation. 

I think we could do with some concrete direction, or at least an affirmation of our 
mandate to continue what we are currently doing. Because to me it is increasingly 
feeling like we're trying to fix something which (apart from a few details like the 
bylaws) isn't broken on the basis of speculation and conjecture, and the danger in 
that is obvious, we'll end up breaking the thing we're trying to fix, or failing to 
fix the parts which are broken.

And with the utmost respect for Sam hopefully that is something a new Chairman, with 
more time and fresh enthusiasm for the role, will be able to provide.

d.


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RE: [License] for jars in CVS

2003-12-24 Thread Danny Angus
Erik

 As for the larger issue of no JARs in CVS - I disagree.

I don't believe that there is room for opinion on this, the fact is it is possible for 
people to download jars using viewcvs without having read the licence therefore it is 
not acceptable.
UNLESS you have *specific* dispensation from the licensor to do this for your project.

d.



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RE: [License] for jars in CVS

2003-12-24 Thread Danny Angus

 I am with Erik on no JARs in CVS. Unless it is a legal issue, I 
 would certainly like to distribute 
 all JARs with the distribution. 

In the case of most of the licences we'd be likely to consider in this context it is 
usually perfectly OK to distribute Jars in a distribution because that gives you the 
opportunity to comply with licence conditions regarding distribution of their licence 
and other materials.

The problem boils down to the fact that some licences, and I know that JavaMail and 
Activation are cases of this, do allow re-distribution as part of a complete product, 
but don't allow re-distribution in any other case. Similarly OS licences require that 
a copy of the licence be distributed along with the binary, and simply placing both in 
cvs doesn't compel anyone to download or read the licence.

As far as OGNL is concerned, from my lurking on the Tapestry lists I'd say that it is 
pretty clear that there is a close association between the projects, and if you want 
to continue to have OGNL in cvs I'd get Drew to send a mail to the Tapestry dev list, 
or the PMC confirming that they are happy for this to happen.

FWIW on a previous occasion that this subject came up I got a similar assurance from 
Mark Mathews regarding the mm.mysql jdbc drivers, he was quite happy with the way we 
were doing things and this seemed to be acceptable. Leastways no-one here complained.

d.


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RE: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Danny Angus

 As both Roy and Greg have said, if the Jakarta committers truly 
 understood how few rights and privileges they have, they would be 
 demanding both ASF and PMC membership. Few do, so few have.

Well I kind of asked for PMC nomination, are you saying that we should, or indeed 
could, ask for membership? 

d.


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Danny Angus





Andy wrote:

 FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be
 voting/discussing here.
snip
 I choose to
 work in the open.  I choose to be googled.  I volunteered for it in fact.

Well said, I agree with this.
But why be so confrontational about it? After all in the tradition of itch
scratching you took issue with the private discussions and did something,
no one is questioning that it was the right outcome and that we were being
half-assed about it, but what is this argument about now?

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Danny Angus




 While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet committers.

I certainly think that increasing the size of the PMC makes it easier for
things to get discussed on the PMC list, but if people care (and you do for
one) about visibility the very nature of things mean that it won't happen
for long before someone starts to get obstreperous.

I know from the past that you'd favour a fully open process, but we don't
have that. I don't think this should _necessarily_ be a social experiment,
in open management, this isn't a political project its about software.

d.


--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious


 On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:


 BIG SNIP

 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
  list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
 /end Geir 

 What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
 This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
 ashamed of it, don't do open source community.

 There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are considered
 a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.

 If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
 included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive

 because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our
 act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
 as a group.

 IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
 things clear and non-confusing.


 For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
 will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?

 What do I mean by that:
 ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
 commit the code to do it.

 ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
 Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out
 roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
 commiters, but does not committ itself?.
 What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
 code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
 The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
 have they CVSed latelly.

 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.

 Please re-read.

 geir

 --
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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RE: TRACE level [WAS] Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Danny Angus
 Unfortunately, you can't buy nor open source humor.

Perhaps you could delegate it?
I've often considered selling my children on the internet, they have a great sense of 
humour.
OTOH perhaps it wouldn't stretch *that* far!

d.

disclaimer that was a JOKE, my wife would go seriously ballistic if I sold our kids 
/disclaimer


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Re: Confused with PMCs, TLPs, ASF and Power?

2003-12-19 Thread Danny Angus




 Be aware of the
 disclaimer at the top

Nice disclaimer ;-)

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus





 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.

 Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
 effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to

 have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.

It's certainly not deliberate. Least I hope not.
I guess Andy was trying to shame people into using this list. Go Andy .
d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
the
 public?

For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other
commercial/open hybrids.
OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed
by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department.
From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of
consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be
better off here.

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the
origanization. I can understand certain
 private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else,
I think, should be out in
 the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some
talk going on about the
 Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate
the knowledge sharing in
 such metters.

Harish,
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.

Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
(including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have
been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly
just at the My Idea stage.

I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it
is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us
all.

d.



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Re: Promotion of sub projects

2003-12-10 Thread Danny Angus




David Sean Taylor wrote,

 Just for fun I thought I'd fill this out for the Jetspeed and Pluto
 projects (WSRP4J is another possibility).
 We would like to start a TLP named 'portal.apache.org' including
 Jetspeed-1, Jetspeed-2 and Pluto, and other portal apps as they are
 developed.

Good, well I suggest that your answers (ruthlessly snipped) tell you that
its worth pursuing.

I'd suggest a good first step would be to start a discussion on the
relevant dev list(s) to see if there is broadly support or opposition to
the idea.

It might be a good idea to provide and overview of what the hell promotion
means and enumerate the benefits and drawbacks it brings.

I'd be happy to prime you from my own experience, or subscribe and join in,
as I'm sure will others who've been through (or oppose) this.

If you garner a general consensus the next step would be to draw up a
proposal for the commiters to vote upon, including the makeup of the
initial PMC, project scope and inaugural PMC chair, and possibly (kind of
bootstrappingly) the conditions which have to be met for the vote to be
sucessful.

If your vote suceeds you then make a formally worded proposal to the board,
James included a short covering letter outlining our reasoning. The board
then vote and either reject it with recommendations (such as to modify the
scope) or accept it and you're faced with the infrastructure tasks.

d.



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RE: Promotion of sub projects

2003-12-10 Thread Danny Angus




 Just a reminder, but there need not be a 1:1 mapping of PMC and web
domain,
 so there is no need to breakup the Jakarta web site unless people *want*
to
 do so.

Quite so, there's no obligation on a promoted sub-project to abandon its
place in the jakarta infrastructure.
In fact the idea of Jakarta being a less formal grouping of TLP's with a
shared mission and audience has been proposed before and IMO is not a bad
idea.

d.



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Promotion of sub projects

2003-12-09 Thread Danny Angus




In the light of a request to the PMC by a Jakarta sub-project to have its
own top-level wiki I thought of this...

Jakarta is attempting to put our house in order wrt oversight, this is
manifesting itself as incresed centralisation of oversight, and reduced
autonomy for sub-projects.

An issue we've discussed before is promotion to TLP of existing mature
sub-projects. This started off with an assertion that no-one from Ant would
be in favour, and ended up with Ant, Avalon, James and Maven all taking the
plunge.

One of the most obvious benefits of TLP to promoted sub-projects is their
own top-level infrastructure. Providing access to this from within Jakarta
seems wrong, it breaks the seperation of concerns, would provide ammunition
to the argument that this PMC doesn't have full oversight and blurs the
line between project and sub-project. If a project wants this it should
consider promotion as the route to achieve it.

I would like to propose (but this is not a proposal, just provoking
discussion) that we draw up some benchmarks for promotion, which could give
some indication that a sub-project is ready to *consider* promotion, and
probably should do so seriously.

These could be similar to the guidelines for adoption as a sub-project
(http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html).
some ideas are noted below (a little tongue-in-cheek in the style of a
lifestyle magazine).

Such checks need not compel a sub-project to apply for promotion, but I
would certainly like sub-projects to consider it as they grow in size,
maturity or scope, and perhaps an official checklist will remind people and
give them the confidence to raise the subject, and perhaps a target to aim
for.

1/ Community dynamic,
a) Is your community self sustaining and largely independant of other parts
of Jakarta?
Not the individuals, the community. Is it, for instance, so heavily
influenced by the direction of some other sub-project that membership of
both is virtually a pre-requisite for understanding.
b) Are many of your commiters also commiters of some other sub-project for
this, or similar, reasons?

2/ Project Management,
a) Does your sub-project need or get much direction from the Jakarta PMC
(or is it mostly handled by the comitters with lip service paid to the
PMC)?

3/ Community health,
a) Is your community highly dependant on one or two key people, or is
there a real mix of talent working as a team?
b) Is there generally an amicable, if hotly debated, concensus?

4/ Infrastructure resources,
a) Does your sub-project have aspirations to own its own top-level
resources (cvs, mailing lists, wiki, web-site)?

5/ Product seperation,
a) Is your product tightly bound to other Jakarta sub-projects (excluding
commons) or does it only supply a need or consume deliverables in the usual
way?
b) Does your sub-project contribute a lot of code to another, or receive a
lot of contributions from another Jakarta sub-project?

6/ Scope,
a) Has your sub-project outgrown it's original scope?
b) Does your sub-project have a need or desire to maintain it's own
sub-projects, incubate new ideas, or accept incubated projects from the
incubator?

7/
a) Are there any compeling arguments which can be raised to support
remaining within Jakarta?

Score 1 for each of the following answers:
1a yes
1b no
2a not much
3a real mix
3b generally amicable
4a yes
5a normal supply/consume relationship
5b not much direct contribution to or by other sub-projects
6a yes
6b yes
7a not really

Total 1-3 You probably belong here, consider staying.
Total 4-6 You might need to address some issues before you go.
Total 7-9 Promotion could be your path to further growth and maturity.
Total 10-11 You treat this place like a hotel, its time to think about what
you really want.


d.



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Re: [POLL] pmc alumni

2003-12-02 Thread Danny Angus





---
[+1 ] Cool
[ ] Whatever
[ ] UnCool
[ ] I've Got A Better Idea (Please Tell Everyone About It)
---



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Re: FeedParser - RSS/Atom parser/serializer contribution to Jakarta.

2003-11-20 Thread Danny Angus




 1. Find out if Apache has any interest in this code.

 I think I do :-)

 2. Find out what legal documents my company has to process for this to
 be adopted.  We have to have our lawyers review this.

I believe that there is a software donation grant document for this, but
I'm not the guy to ask abot it.

 3. Figure out what legal documents *I* have to sign ...

That'd just be a Contributors Licence Agreement (CLA)

Details of both are linked from here http://www.apache.org/licenses/#clas

 Unfortunately I don't think I can make the source available until I have
 our lawyers take a look at #2 so if I can't get an answer to #1 until
 that point I understand.

My 2c is..

If you haven't read it, read this first
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html
I guess you have because you're proposing commons which we might assume to
have a lower bar.
However I'd also advise you seriously to consider  incubator.apache.org,
ws.apache.org or xml.apache.org, simply because I believe that they may be
a more appropriate home.



d.





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Re: New project proposal -- Html4Java

2003-11-17 Thread Danny Angus




 Sounds interesting, but have you seen ECS?
 http://jakarta.apache.org/ecs/index.html

And for something more weighty in the realm of component architecture for
web-pages there's Tapestry
http://jakarta.apache.org/tapestry



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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-11-12 Thread Danny Angus




 I still ask myself why we can't put HiveMind as its own project under
 the Jakarta umbrella.

It doesn't seem unreasonable to me, if the criteria are met and the
political implications of creating a new sub-project are acceptable.
Otherwise a spell in commons will help to cement the community and do no
harm.

I would like to know if this has been proposed to Avalon, if not why not,
if so what has been their reaction.

I'm not suggesting that it should be, just that it might be a better fit
with their charter.

d.




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Re: [Proposal] HiveMind Service Framework

2003-11-12 Thread Danny Angus




Howard wrote:


 3) Chuck it over to Avalon

 I've looked to see how we could graft HiveMind into Avalon and
vice-versa,
 but they are really quite different beasts.  The type-1  vs.
type-2/type-3
 split is intrinsic and difficult to reconcile.  HiveMind's concept of a
module
 doesn't map so easily into the  Avalon space, and HiveMind's free-for-all
 approach doesn't jive with Avalon's dogmatic security model
 (including its explicit application construction descriptor).

I didn't mean to suggest that you should try to move avalon architecture
towards hivemind or vice versa,
but I did wonder if there would be support @avalon for an alternative
approach as an avalon sub-project.

The danger of having an Avalon alternative @jakarta is that it will be seen
by people as somehow being Jakarta's favoured solution, rather than as one
of two (or more) alternatives promoted by Avalon.
If you see what I mean.

Of course you went through this whole debate when we discussed whether we
needed Tapestry as an alternative to Struts, as equal members of Jakarta
neither approach can be seen to be in any way an endorsed or
favourite. The same (IMO) would not be true for service frameworks if
Hivemind was a Jakarta project not an Avalon one. Hivemind would be seen by
some to be Jakarta's favoured solution.

FWIW I'm certainly not going to oppose this, Hivemind seems to be a well
thought out proposal, but I don't want Jakarta to be accused of trying to
replace Avalon, and I guess that will mean involving Avalon folks in the
discussion.

Imagine the reaction there would be if I proposed a make utility as a
Jakarta sub-project, and perhaps you'll get the thrust of my concern.

d.



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Re: Call on Stein to resin

2003-11-11 Thread Danny Angus




Vic,

Notwithstanding your arguments this is not the appropriate forum for this.
This list is for project management discussion regarding the Jakarta
project.
Geronimo is not under the jursidiction of the Jakarta project.

If you want to make trouble please make it in the appropriate place, where
you can be sure to be acknowledged by people who know about the issues.

d.



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Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo

2003-11-11 Thread Danny Angus




  The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will

  take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are
  violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other
  appropriate action is taken.

 GREAT!!! That is 99% of what I wanted to hear. I hope others are happy
 with this as well.


I'm quite sure that you've been told this before.

d.



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Re: Call on Stein to resin

2003-11-11 Thread Danny Angus




 why it is not the appropriate forum for this shouldnt we know the
 truth??!!!

 We must know the truth

Quoting from my original message which you appear NOT to have read before
replying to it:

This list is for project management discussion regarding the Jakarta
project.
Geronimo is not under the jursidiction of the Jakarta project.

Since you ask so nicely I'll reveal a secret to you... YOU may know the
TRUTH...

But first you must subscribe to the geronimo mailing list and take your
geronimo questions over there.

@see http://incubator.apache.org

d.

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