Re: Footprints to the mail (Re: [PATCH] index.xml/elsewhere.xml/binidex.xml/source.xml/project.xml)

2003-06-06 Thread Peter Donald
Hi,

On Fri, 6 Jun 2003 09:27 pm, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
 P.S. This might be a memorial 100th mail to apache-world for me
 as well as the first mail using .apache.org account.  ;-)

Congrats. 

The reason you have not seen any email yet is because it is in the moderators 
queue. Whoever moderates that list will moderate the messages and authorize 
you for all future mails. SO after this your mail shoul,d go through 
imediately.

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Re: Babeldoc Proposal

2003-06-03 Thread Peter Donald
Hi,

If you are serious about this then there is a couple of things I would do to 
make Jakarta peeps take note. 

* change the license to Apache-like or lighter (ie BSDL)
* change the way you run the project to be in the Apache tradition (ie 
meritocracy and our decision making process)
* start talking with Apache projects that you are likely to collaborate with 
(cocoon and Jelly jump to mind).
* make sure the developer community is obvious (couldn't see anything off your 
website)

As to the code - it looks really good and the documentation is great aswell. 
However Apache largely considers quality a side-effect of a good community so 
it is not sufficient to just be good code.

Anyways I would definetly talk to some cocoon people as they will hopefully be 
interested - they have what is a very similar framework except that it is 
broader reaching, centrally controlled and pull based where yours seems 
simpler and more focused. You may be able to collaborate with them on 
implementation of stages.

Anyways the best way to become a part of the community is to reach out and 
start talking with people who are in similar areas and you can collaborate 
with. Hopefully someone will step up to be a sponsor and after you have 
done that drop by incubator.apache.org lists and make the proposals.

On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:12 pm, McDonald, Bruce wrote:
 All,

 I am the project leader for the Babeldoc project (http://www.babeldoc.com)
 and have been tasked to see if we can join the Jakarta project.  We are
 currently an open source project (GPL) hosted on SourceForge but we have
 found ourselves relying more and more on Jakarta code.  Additionally we
 think that are a good fit for Jakarta since Babeldoc is complementary to
 the projects on Jakarta - Babeldoc does stuff that is not done by any other
 project in Jakarta.

 I have read the guidelines given on your subprojects page and feel that we
 (mostly) comply with all the points.  Please advise me as to the next
 steps.  We are prepared to change the license on the code.

 regards,

 Bruce McDonald.

 PS.  This is my work email.  I can be contacted at
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Jakarta: too many similar projects?

2003-03-17 Thread Peter Donald
On Mon, 17 Mar 2003 07:20, Hans Bergsten wrote:
 The NDA in the JCP agreement only applies to confidential
 information. After a public draft has been published, the info it
 contains is no longer confidential.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of information that may not make it into the 
public draft but may still be relevent. In particular implications of certain 
design decisions. Even when a draft becomes public you may be restricted from 
discussing points and implications of decisions.

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* everyone gets busy on the proof.   *
*  - John Kenneth Galbraith   *
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Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?

2003-01-15 Thread Peter Donald
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote:
 It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site
 would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to
 collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is
 free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the
 features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the
 Jakarta site.

checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;)

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Re: TestMaker and Jakarta

2002-12-04 Thread Peter Donald
I know some people that are big fans of TestMaker and would love to see it at 
Apache. The problem is that Testmaker does not fit our requirements for a 
community. In the end it doesn't matter about the quality of the code, the 
number of users, downloads etc unless you do have a viable community.

If you are not deterred by this then I would recomend tht you go over to 
incubator.apache.org andsubmit it there where you can hopefully grow a 
community in Apache style. 

On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:20, Frank Cohen wrote:
 I wanted to bring the Jakarta general list up to date on my progress with
 TestMaker. Here's how the project stands now:

 1) The PushToTest web site that supports TestMaker is getting 110-160
 unique visitors a day. The traffic comes mostly from Google searches.
 Additional traffic comes from a variety of software development, QA and IT
 sites. Plus, I have 5 articles on Web Service development and scalability
 issues on IBM developerWorks that link to the PushToTest site.

 2) TestMaker downloads average 100-300 per day. The difference from the Web
 site visitors is that TestMaker is listed on Freshmeat with a blind link to
 download the software. Registration for announcements is optional and so
 far 2165 people have registered. I send newsletters every 5-6 weeks.

 3) Support email lists get 5-10 postings per week. I respond to 90% of them
 myself. Replies also come from contributors and committers.

 4) TestMaker 3.1 was completed on November 12, 2003. The next version is
 3.2 which should be up by the end of December and will feature
 SMTP/POP3/IMAP protocol handlers.

 5) Coding on the .NET version of TestMaker began on November 2, 2002. The
 new software will feature a C# library of protocol handlers and primarily
 use VB.NET as its scripting language. I will author a series of articles
 and likely a book on testing .NET Web Services in support of the code.
 TestMaker .NET will be licensed under an Apache-style license as is the
 current TestMaker 3.1. We should be done in Spring, with beta in February.

 6) I am earning consulting money being the go-to guy for enterprises
 needing to solve scalability problems in interoperating systems, especially
 Web Services. I'm putting food on my families' table by customizing
 TestMaker to meet enterprise customer needs. While this is still primarily
 a solo show, 6 people provided contributions to TestMaker 3.1 and 2 more
 are committers.

 I am still interested in donating TestMaker to Jakarta.

 -Frank

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Re: Can't get to bug database

2002-10-22 Thread Peter Donald
Keep retrying or retry in a day or two. The server is a little tempremental at 
the moment but people are looking in to it. Soory about the inconveenience.

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 08:29, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 None of the links off of the Jakarta site to the bug databases are
 working.

 I tried

 http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/
 http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=Ant
 http://nagoya.apache.org/bugzilla/

 -- Dave

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Re: Evaluation Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-20 Thread Peter Donald
On Thu, 1 Jan 1970 09:59, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Again my biggest concern is your assertion that you should adopt the
 voting rules, etc. after joining.  My opinion is that you should adopt
 them, get them working.  

+1

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Re: Log reporting (was: Is Cactus successful)

2002-10-20 Thread Peter Donald
Sourceforge it and let people play (or commons-sandbox it and see where it 
goes).

On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 08:05, Henri Yandell wrote:
 If anyone is ever interested, I have the foundation of a Java 'LogView'
 project currently sitting in my personal projects. The idea being that
 it's your usual chaining design with Loglets and Renderers and reports and
 stuff. By having in Java we gain the advantage of making it a live, based
 on Log4J [or other] input. I also thought it was important to make it just
 a log-reporting tool and not a web-log reporting tool. Most of the other
 tool seem to kill themselves by going straight to the weblog concept.

 Hen

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-19 Thread Peter Donald
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 09:40, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 on 2002/10/19 4:22 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I want to start a new project for a new Servlet Container that is not
  Tomcat! :-) Let's see how many fans I'm going to get! :-)
 
Pier

 Yea, let's see if we can move Jetty under Jakarta.

 =)

Well it is faster ... 

;)

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-19 Thread Peter Donald
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 10:31, John McNally wrote:
 It seems like a similar idea, or am I wrong?  I liked the idea of spfc.
 Though the change in perspective needed to think of a webapp in terms of
 event driven components was considered too great a stretch, I guess.  Is
 such an approach gaining more acceptance, or have I missed the point of
 Tapestry?

Component + Event driven web dev has got a lot more press recently. MS uses 
it. Sun is trying to develope a standard for it (see Java Faces which I 
believe Craig chairs) and there is quite a few other toolkits out there that 
do it and some even go the full way (swinglets or whatever it is called).

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-19 Thread Peter Donald
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 02:06, Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:
 Benevolent dictatorship.  Probably should have expanded on this.  Without
 a formal comittee or voting system, I've reserved the right to ultimately
 decide what goes into the framework and what doesn't.  

Start changing now. I don't know how long it will be before you come to Apache 
but there is no harm and considerable benefit in moving to this model IMHO. 
It would also enhance your chances of making it into Apache.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-18 Thread Peter Donald
 some code and significant amounts of documentation.  Geoff Longman
 has created an excellent plugin for the Eclipse IDE (as a separate
 project).  Several other developers have contributed bugs fixes, components
 or documentation in the past.

 Alignment:  Tapestry makes use of the ORO, commons-lang and commons-logging
 packages internally.

 Scope:  Tapestry is entirely a server-side framework, well aligned with the
 overall goals of the Jakarta project.

 Warning Signs

 Orphaned products.  Tapestry is far from orphaned, it was originally
 conceived and executed specifically as an open-source project.

 Inexperience:  Howard Lewis Ship has been coding, documenting, mentoring
 and managing this open source project for nearly three years.

 Homogeneous Developers:  All of the committers listed above came to the
 project entirely through appreciation of its qualities (none are known to
 Howard Lewis Ship except through Tapestry); representatives from Canada,
 England, Australia and New Zealand are included; other contributors
 represent South America and Asia (no records have been kept on
 contributor's country of origin).  This is just the opposite of the smoke
 filled room.

 Reliance on Salaried Developers.  Tapestry is largely developed during free
 time. Many contributions are developed by consultants to address specific
 needs of their clients, then modularized and provided back to the community
 (for example, Geoff is developing a workflow management subsystem for
 Tapestry that may be released into the framework proper when completed). 
 Increasingly, developers are finishing projects with Tapestry and
 contributing components created for those projects back into the framework.

 No ties to other Apache Products:  As stated above, Tapestry makes use of
 the ORO and commons packages and has numerous places where greater
 integration with Jakarta could occur.  It is servlet container agnostic,
 working well with Tomcat, Jetty, Resin and others.

 Fascination with Apache Brand:  Tapestry has been, and always will be an
 open-source project.

 Overlap with Turbine

 Turbine has a similar model to Tapestry, but uses more levels of
 abstraction (Layout, Module and Navigation where Tapestry simply has
 Component).  Turbine provides more choices for rendering responses, whereas
 Tapestry supports only its own HTML template format.

 The focus of the two projects is somewhat divergent.  Turbine is a
 service-oriented where Tapestry is component-oriented.  Turbine provides a
 larger toolkit (in the form of services) for aspects of the application not
 related directly to the presentation layer.  Tapestry provides more
 flexibility and power in the presentation layer but doesn't provide any
 other services (such as scheduling, database access, security, etc.).

 Many Tapestry developers are using Tapestry for the presentation layer, but
 leveraging the many Turbine services (especially Torque).

 Summary

 Tapestry is a mature, powerful framework whose focus aligns well with the
 overall scope of the Jakarta project.  Both Tapestry and Jakarta would be
 well served by moving Tapestry under the Jakarta umbrella.

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Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???

2002-10-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:14, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Possibly Avalon does this (to some degree) but it
 only covers a subset of what you need and furthermore it goes out of its
 way to define far to many is a relationships just to avoid having
 default implementations (public void init() {/*empty designated by
 interface}).  The cost is often a design with too many
 SameThingAsBOnlyIsAlsoComposableButNotConfigrable type classes... plus
 long inheritance trees to aggregate them all together..  

I think you will find most (all?) Avalon people hate deep inheritance (kinda 
obvious given that it is a component framework) so whoever has this sort of 
behaviour is misusing Avalon.

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Re: unbiased opinions wanted.

2002-06-10 Thread Peter Donald

At 05:27 PM 6/10/2002 -0700, you wrote:
The POI community, in an effort to be really original smirk/, is 
conducting a logo contest.  One of the
logos appears to have taken the show but I'm a bit suspicious as to just 
how far away its run with the show.
http://vote.sparklit.com/poll.spark/640946  I mean most days it gets 
50-100 votes  which is pretty weird
considering the quality of all of the submissions.  I'd understand if it 
were like 5 move votes a day over time than
the rest of the logosbut like 50?
Second question that came up on the comments (that we didn't notice when 
accepting it because I don't think
any of us use Windoze XP).  Do you think its too close to the Win XP 
logo.  (its a diamond, not a floaty square
thing)...?

I am not an expert but trademark law is in part so that unlicensed 
organizations don't use someone else's trademarked logos, especially in a 
way which could construed as conflicting with their business.  If a 
reasonable person sees it and thinks that it is a MS logo and it is being 
used in a context where there could be product confusion then you are 
violating the intent if not the letter of the law.

My first reaction, was Hey, that's an MS logo on it's side steaming out 
of a cup.  I would change it.

Not to mention that sun will probably come after you for using their 
traqdemark aswell ;)


Cheers,

Peter Donald
~~~
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind,
and proving that there is no need to do so - almost
everyone gets busy on the proof.
  - John Kenneth Galbraith
~~~


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Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002

2002-06-05 Thread Peter Donald

+1

At 03:04 AM 6/6/2002 +0100, you wrote:
Rob Oxspring [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Jakarta Newsletter
  ==
  Issue: 0
  Date: May 2002

Anyone against sending this to announcements?

I'm +1 on content (and since my flamewar occupies about 30% of it, well!!!
:):):)

 Pier

--
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sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: Jakarta Newsletter - May 2002

2002-06-05 Thread Peter Donald

I would actually prefer no peer review (or at least no binding peer 
review). If people want to have a say what goes into it then they should 
get off their butts and write something for it ;)

I am sure that the writers will be at responsible enough (and if not we can 
yank
  their privlidges to post it to announcement list)

At 04:19 PM 6/5/2002 +0100, you wrote:
Rob Oxspring [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Jakarta Newsletter
  ==
  Issue: 0
  Date: May 2002

Great job... I'd like to propose the following: peer review on this mailing
list, vote request, and then send it off on announcements... This can be
done every month if Rob is willing to keep up with the pace of my flamewars.

 Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Peter Donald
 for the very first time with a
 non-coding member. Comments please?

 Pier

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 28 May 2002 03:12, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Sun, 26 May 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
  + some mailing list management software + some product release software)
  it would be very beneficial to push the administration down onto project
  leads

 So we'll also have 'project leads' ?

we already do in practice. Some projects more so than others. As been stated 
before - Apache is a meritocracy, the more you contribute, the more 
responsibility and power you receive.

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Re: FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link is broken...

2002-05-26 Thread Peter Donald

On Sun, 26 May 2002 03:58, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of
 different sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the
 power of C with the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge
 - San Francisco]

I like !

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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-26 Thread Peter Donald

On Sun, 26 May 2002 00:07, Sam Ruby wrote:
 Ceki Gülcü wrote:
  The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
  author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
  enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
  volunteers if they all pull in different directions?

 Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.

Now thats a statement that can be taken about a billion different ways ... and 
almost all of those interpretations would be true ;)

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Re: Criteria for commit access

2002-05-26 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 25 May 2002 07:37, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 5/24/02 5:28 PM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Costin Manolache wrote:
  If one quarter of the new commiters make 1/2 the contributions that
 
  people
 
  like Sam Ruby did - I'm quite happy.
 
  As Mark Twain once said The rumors of my demise have been greatly
  exaggerated.

 But he only said it once.  Let us keep the legend alive!  :)

Is anyone else reminded of the end of the Braveheart movie ?

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Re: Project Activity

2002-05-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 13 May 2002 20:17, Danny Angus wrote:
 Sometimes lists are where the activity is, commits alone don't credit the
 essential design and planning effort put in by users commiters and
 non-commiters that shapes the product and maps its progress.

Agreed - even worse. Sometimes after these activity meters turn up you get 
committers breaking up one commit into many commits, presumably to push their 
activity level up. You also get the many typographic changes for much the 
same reason.

I have found that higher healthy activity is actually indicated by small 
localized changes. This is not going to be captured in a simple count the 
commits and note the committer style approach.

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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

2002-05-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:13, Jeff Turner wrote:
 I doubt a separate list would work. We've got an announcements@ list and
 everyone still cc's announcements to general@.

 Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV] for
 adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.

Perhaps we could also prefix their messages with [TROLL], [SPAM], [WHINING] or 
[EGO] where appropriate ? :)

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Re: Advertisement using Apache lists

2002-05-13 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

Perhas a better idea would be to get some space on main website where people 
could advertise that they supply support for various Jakarta projects or 
whatever. That way people have a central location to go to get info on 
commercial support and all that. Theres a whole bunch of people that do 
support/contract/consulting on jakarta stuff and it could end up extremely 
noisy if done on list.

I would prefer that general remain about community/organisational/etc issues 
across the whole jakarta project. Keep noise signal to noise ratio as high as 
we can I say. 

On Mon, 13 May 2002 22:48, Jeff Turner wrote:
   Perhaps we should just adopt a simple subject line convention, [ADV]
   for adverts, to go with [ANN] for announcements.
 
  I've noticed too that the annoumcement list stuff gets CCd to other
  lists.
 
  How about having all content sent to that list be automatically CCd to
  general lists with [ANN]?

 To spell out this idea: any mail that gets sent to announcements@jakarta
 is forwarded to general@ with [ANN] prepended to it's subject
 (possibly stripping any existing [ANN] variants).

 Same with [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 That's kinda nice. In addition to munging the subject line, it could add
 an X-Jakarta-Announce: or X-Jakarta-Advert: header, which people could
 filter on.

 All assuming that people *want* Jakarta-related adverts and
 announcements on general@. I get the impression that some do, a few
 don't, and most don't care.


 --Jeff

  This way if one wants only announcements, he can subscribe to that list,
  while other users get the ANN topics automatically.
 
  This could be done also with an [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, and [ADV] as
  Jeff suggests.
  Another result of this is having separate mail history for these lists.
 
  --
  Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  - verba volant, scripta manent -
 (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

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Re: where to send questions about Other Classes

2002-05-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 14 May 2002 11:13, Jeff Barrett wrote:
 What's the appropriate list for questions about stuff in the
 org.apache.xml.serialize package?

Looks like something from  xml.apache.org so I would check over there. 
Probably something from xalan so maybe try xalan-user ?? 

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Re: BTW - You guys aren't so funny.

2002-05-03 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 3 May 2002 10:45, Sam Ruby wrote:
 Just thought I would let you know.

I thought they were - just not in the haha sense :)

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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

2002-05-03 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 3 May 2002 11:44, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 5/2/02 6:33 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
  OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts
  etc

 For future reference, can we quantify this 'deservation' of peerage?

It should be size of developer community, size of codebase etc. Alternatively 
you just have to be able to influence the people who vote.

 I don't know how big
 the OJB community is, where it's being used, etc. 

From what I hear (mainly from EJB peeps), OJB is all good and fairly popular. 
If the torque people also praise it then I figure it must be decent.

 (I know Poolman's is
 huge, but that doesn't seem to matter - the # of developers seems to be the
 gating factor...)

The ability to support/grow a community would be biggest factor IMO. The 
larger the number of developers the greater the ability to grow a community. 
However if the codebase is too small or too specialized or too good then it 
will never attract community. If it is a platform rather than a product that 
is also key to its success.

  So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal
  with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in
  future).

 This would be great, and would certainly satisfy the 'needs' that motivate
 me to propose this.

 However, we have a bit of chicken and egg to deal with.  We could go to the
 Apache board and ask to start it, hoping that something stumbles in, or
 take a small pause with OJB and try to work out a proposal, bundling
 several things together to make a new Apache subproject.  It would make a
 stronger proposal.

It comes down to the OJB committers. If they want to do it then there is very 
little standing in the way. I doubt the board would object which means that 
there just needs to be some volunteers from other apache projects to help set 
it all up. Mainly this means making sure the Apache spirit is instilled in 
the new PMC, helping with infrastructure (gump, website etc) and advertising.

Overtime it may also mean advocacy (like getting cooperation from ozone and 
xindice, etc or even bringing them to project). And dont forget shameless 
self promotion.

In the end I think it would be best move for OJB group (much better awareness 
and promotion and in the end development) however it comes down to whether 
they want to do it and if there is enough Apache volunteers to get it going. 

 2) We see if any parts of Jakarta are willing to volunteer to join.  There
 is Torque, parts of avalon, commons dbcp.  Must be more...

I would not bother with the parts from commons or avalon at this stage. Torque 
could be interesting though, as would poolman ;)

 Is this moving in the right direction?

I think so. But it is up to someone volunteering to do the legwork. Talk to 
the OJB guys and see if they want to do so. Do the same to torque peeps. If 
all is good then someone will need to help them set up PMC and do all the 
infrastructure stuff.

If you need volunteers I will help integrating gump and also help with their 
website but have no time for politics or coding on their stuff.

Or to put it simply if you want it done and OJB wants it done then it will get 
done - otherwise it wont, simple as that really.

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Re: Database Subproject Discussion : creation of DBCommons ?

2002-05-02 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

OJB deserves to be a peer to other projects alongside ant, avalon, struts etc

A somewhat better idea IMO would be to use OJB + Torque as a trampoline for a 
new top-level project db.apache.org (or insert something more snappy if you 
want). So much like xml.apache.org deals with XML, db.apache.org will deal 
with databases (maybe even collaborate with xml.apache.org/xindice in 
future).

While this new db project is gestating we can cross link it extensively from 
the jakarta website. After they get off the feet we talk to it the same way 
we talk to xml.apache.org ?

On Fri, 3 May 2002 07:33, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 I hate to interrupt all the good fun over standards, bike sheds, and
 general good community feelings,  but I would like to solicit community
 opinion on something unrelated to DVSL or Jon Stevens (both of which I
 like, btw...)

 Recently, it was proposed that ObjectBridge be brought to Jakarta as a
 subproject.

 Costin suggested, and I supported, that a subproject of wider scope be
 created to allow the collection of similar technologies into one larger
 subcommunity (that isn't an exact quote, but I think he'll agree in general
 with that.)

 The idea would be to bring in ObjectBridge, but create a Commons-like
 environment in which other projects can be brought.   Call it DB-Commons as
 a working name.

 There are some good reasons, including community alignment, inter-project
 synergy (there, I used the word in an Apache-related post), and ease of
 discovery for new users and developers.

 Off the top of my head, in Jakarta we have lots of db related tools already
 (Torque, commons-dbcp, and I am sure others...), and having a db-focused
 subproject in which they can be brought to with a lower barrier than
 'fullsubproject' might be very benficial.

 We already have the successful Commons model to use as a starting point.

 Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Trademarks, copyright etc

2002-05-01 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 1 May 2002 20:45, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
 On Tue, 30 Apr 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 |  Does anyone have pointers as to how we can use the project names
 |  legally in our work, e.g. we do consulting using Apache Ant, Apache
 |  Struts etc. Do there need to be (tm)s there? Are the project names
 |  trademarked, copyrighted etc?
 |
 | AFAIK, the only name having an official (TM) is only Apache per se, but
 | you might want to contact the Apache Software Foundation legal
 | department (aka, Ken) at mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] who usually deals
 | with all this crap.

 What's the difference between (R) and (TM) ?

 I had an idea about (R) being the thing you had to pay to get, like
 _register_ the name, while (TM) just meant that Hey, I'M using this name,
 so please back off!.

TradeMarks can be registered or not. Registered trademarks are easier to 
defend in court and the Apache name would be an example of one I guess. 
However other names like Ant, Tomcat etc could still be considered trademarks 
(if we treated them as such and went after people who mis-used them) however 
they are much harder to enforce and require a much more active defense. At 
least thats what I vaguely recall but I could be wrong :)

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Re: You make the decision (was Re: Quick! convert all your projects to maven!)

2002-05-01 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 2 May 2002 01:20, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Nope.  Perhaps your font settings differ from mine or perhaps Redhat or
 Ximan package different fonts?

 And I'm at 1600x1200 so well... dunno what the story is.  Is anyone else
 having trouble with this?

 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi/javadocs/

 Thanks in advance for any feedback  assistance.

Looks fine to me. Earlier versions of RedHat packed sucky fonts for many of 
the ISO-* encodings. One way to work around it is to specify the encoding as 
US-ASCII which makes things look a little nicer on old RH systems. 

Just FYI this is also a problem for many sites that used certain JSP engines 
or used default encoding for XSLT transforms (javalobby was one example).

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Re: Subproject Proposal - crossdb

2002-04-25 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

As a side note. I have heard good things about 
http://hibernate.sourceforge.net/ which is yet another persistence layer. 
Unlike all the other ones this does not force you to work within a particular 
model of development. ie It does not force you to regenerate sources (ie 
Torque), postcompile (ie Entity beans), or process it through bytecode 
augmenter (ie JDO). 

The persisted objects are simple java beans with setters and getters. The 
setters/getters need not be public but the system will only persist javabean 
properties.

Anyways it looks like a very kool idea but I have not yet tried it. And before 
I jump into it I was wondering if anyone else has had a go? The main thing I 
guess I am interested in is the performance as none of its docs talk about 
how they cache instances of javabeans or when the beans are made stale etc.

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Re: Subproject Proposal - crossdb

2002-04-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 09:20, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 on 4/25/02 3:37 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Hi,
 
  As a side note. I have heard good things about
  http://hibernate.sourceforge.net/ which is yet another persistence layer.
  Unlike all the other ones this does not force you to work within a
  particular model of development. ie It does not force you to regenerate
  sources (ie Torque), postcompile (ie Entity beans), or process it through
  bytecode augmenter (ie JDO).
 
  The persisted objects are simple java beans with setters and getters. The
  setters/getters need not be public but the system will only persist
  javabean properties.
 
  Anyways it looks like a very kool idea but I have not yet tried it. And
  before I jump into it I was wondering if anyone else has had a go? The
  main thing I guess I am interested in is the performance as none of its
  docs talk about how they cache instances of javabeans or when the beans
  are made stale etc.

 I like their quote in their FAQ...

 And, at runtime, reflection isn't really as slow as people say.

 The reality is that reflection in pre-JDK 1.4 is terribly slow compared
 with direct method calls.

1.3 reflection is a little better but the earlier stuff truly sucks ;) 

However the speed of reflection is such a minor part in persistence layer I 
could not see how it would effect performance. Especially given that you are 
going through jdbc possibly over IP to get to the underlying DataSource.

What I guess the main performance characteristeric will be how they handle the 
instance cache, invalidation and so forth. Unfortunately I can't see any 
stuff on their websote regarding that.

 FYI, Torque's re-generation of sources is really not that big of a deal.

Depends on how often the schema changes ;) Or if you need to map it in 
different ways in different systems.

However the main reason that I was looking at this was because the persistence 
layers suck in a distributed application. You end up creating dummy Value 
Objects for each persisted object or for each view which are 90% identical to 
actual persistent objects (minus the persistence framework specific parts).

Sou you end up with something like following in torque

MyData (The Biz Object)
MyDataVO (The Value Object)
MyDataPeer (The Peer)
AbstractMyData (the abstract biz object)
AbstractMyDataPeer (The abstract Peer)

And the only one decoupled from the persistence framework is MyDataVO. In an 
ideal situation you would just have a single object MyData that is free 
from persistence framework and is nice and simple. (and basically a clone of 
MyDataVO). The rest of the stuff could be dynamically configured at runtime - 
including the mapping to physical datasource.

Any system that did that and did not have all the rest of the cruft would be a 
sure winner IMHO.

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Re: New Subproject proposal Config4J

2002-04-24 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 25 Apr 2002 09:50, Sam wrote:
 Hi.

 I would like to propose a new subproject called Config4J.

Theres a few of these around all solving similar things. Is there anything 
that distinguishes it from the Preferences API in JDK1.4? (Except that it 
would run on pre-jdk1.4 JVMs). The Preferences API is already being 
integrated into several core APIs and by jdk1.5/tiger release large chunks of 
the JVM will only be able to be configured using Preferences. 

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Re: [ANN] Maven b3 released!

2002-04-11 Thread Peter Donald

Please don't cross post announcements to the general list. Announcements 
should go to the announcements list as thats what it is meant for.

On Thu, 11 Apr 2002 23:14, Jason van Zyl wrote:
 The Maven team is pleased to announce the Beta 3 release!

 http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/

 Maven is a Java project management and project comprehension tool. Maven is
 based on the concept of a project object model (POM) in that all the
 artifacts produced by Maven are a result of consulting a well defined model
 for your project. Builds, documentation, source metrics, and source
 cross-references are all controlled by your POM.

 Maven has many goals, but in a nutshell Maven aims to make the developer's
 life easier by providing a well defined project structure, well defined
 development processes to follow, and a coherent body of documentation that
 keeps your developers and clients apprised of what's happening with your
 project. Maven alleviates a lot of what most developers consider drudgery
 and lets them get on with the task at hand. This is essential in OSS
 projects where there aren't many people dedicated to the task of
 documenting and propagating the critical information about your project
 which is necessary in order to attract potential new developers and
 clients.

 Changes in this version include:

 o Integration of Checkstyle

 o Maven installation update mechanism that allows you to easily
   update your Maven installation.

 o POM update mechanism that will move your Maven projects forward easily
   as Maven improves. The updater will transform your project descriptor,
   properties files and the project structure itself if required.

 o Testing has been simplified and made safer.

 o An XML Schema and validation mechanism have been added.

 o Documentation changes include fully documented Maven properties, the
   start of an FAQ, and several modifications to help unify the
   documentation so its more coherent for new users.

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Pete


Why does everyone always overgeneralize?


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Mailman for Jakarta/Apache?

2002-04-09 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

Is there any desire to get a mailman interface to the Apache mailing lists? 
(For those of you who don't know it is the same interface used at sourceforge 
- but their archives suck so we can use our own for that.)

The reason being that I have received a bunch of admin emails over last few 
days from people who could have handled it them selves if a mailman 
styleinterface was available.

Thoughts on this?

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Pete

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] Jakarta Commons Collections 2.0 Released

2002-04-05 Thread Peter Donald


Hm - we have an announcement list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for 
this sort of thing. No need to cross post.

On Sat, 6 Apr 2002 05:32, Morgan Delagrange wrote:
 Come and get the Commons Collections 2.0 release!

 http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/components.html

 Commons-Collections provides a suite of classes that extend or augment the
 Java Collections Framework.  Collections 2.0 includes 11 new collections
 and 3 new comparators, as well as several enhancements and bug fixes. 
 Enjoy!

 - The Commons Dev Team


 _
 Do You Yahoo!?
 Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

2002-03-29 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:28, Vladimir Bossicard wrote:
  god no. The avalon group was already using a facade logger long before
  commons was for much the same reason commons adopted one.

 Is Avalon still using its own facade logger or changed to commons-logging?

its own. The commons logger does not support our use case.

 I'm just wondering: How many Jakarta projects use this common-logging
 package?  What's the advantage of having a common logging package if
 it's not widely used even within the Jakarta community?

good question. It is used by struts and will soon be adopted by turbine I 
suspect and those two groups give the package wide-enough usage. 

 Another solution : drop one logger (don't shoot me!) and stand beside
 the winner.  Users willing to use Jakarta projects will *have* to use
 the Jakarta logger.  Sound M$-ish, doesn't it?

Some people would like that ;)

 Last solution : everyone stands where they are: pro-choice vs.
 pro-one-logger.

thats the only way forward.

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Pete

There's a frood who really knows where his towel is.

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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

2002-03-29 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 22:08, Danny Angus wrote:
 This raises a couple of issues though..

 a) it implies that there be an ant based installer for each application
 participating in the scheme

Maybe not an ant based installer. However what it does need is something that 
is equivelent to unixes ld.so. For those who are not aware ld.so is basically 
the linker for unix apps and it maintaines a cache of library data as stored 
in well known places (like /usr/lib, /usr/local/lib, /opt/lib etc).

I have already written most of this about a year ago and plan to revive it 
for work on Ant2.

 b) it also implies that dependacy information and version compatibilities
 can be written and read in a useful way

There is a java standard for this namely

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/guide/extensions/versioning.html.

for a simple explanation see dependencies on

http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/myrmidon/librarys.html

 I think I'm going down the road of a kind of binary GUMP, where
 dependancies are satisfied not by building from cvs, but by downloading
 binaries.

cjan and jjar in commons started out trying to do that but I am not sure 
where they got. I believe they opted not to use the java standard versioning 
/ optional package /extension scheme which makes them even less likely to be 
adopted unless there is much more widespread noise of them :)

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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

2002-03-29 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:36, Danny Angus wrote:
  Now that you can (well, soon) legally implement JSR47's, you
  might was well
  support their interfaces and semantics, and then 'embrace and
  extend'.  Just
  do the JSR47 stuff better :)

 Could Log4J now become an RI of JSR47 ? (I'm still not completely clear
 about all this..)

Not really and nor could you embrace and extend. Soon we will be allowed 
access to the TCKs (fingers crossed) which means we can implment the spec 
legally. However there has not been any change to any of the licenses 
regarding the specification materials which means it is still a violation of 
the license if you were to try and corrupt a spec or embrace and extend a 
spec by poorly-implementing it (and failing the TCK). However now we can at 
least implement the spec(s).

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first time -- T.S. Eliot
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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

2002-03-29 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:48, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 3/29/02 10:40 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Sat, 30 Mar 2002 02:36, Danny Angus wrote:
  Now that you can (well, soon) legally implement JSR47's, you
  might was well
  support their interfaces and semantics, and then 'embrace and
  extend'.  Just
  do the JSR47 stuff better :)
 
  Could Log4J now become an RI of JSR47 ? (I'm still not completely clear
  about all this..)
 
  Not really and nor could you embrace and extend. Soon we will be
  allowed access to the TCKs (fingers crossed) which means we can implment
  the spec legally. However there has not been any change to any of the
  licenses regarding the specification materials which means it is still a
  violation of the license if you were to try and corrupt a spec or
  embrace and extend a spec by poorly-implementing it (and failing the
  TCK). However now we can at least implement the spec(s).

 I can't believe that's true.

 I can't see how they can prevent you from extending.  I mean, every J2EE
 implementation 'embraces and extends' the J2EE spec because the specs leave
 out a lot.  For example, you can't make a really useful JMS broker until
 you add proprietary extensions for clustering, load balancing, etc... 
 Anyone that includes any functioning taglibs with a servlet container / jsp
 implementation is extending the spec as there are no useful tags in the
 spec.

 I can't see how anyone can complain if you pass the TCK.

Passing the TCK - thats the trick. Given that most (all?) TCKs require that 
the public interface conform exactly to that which is specified and that 
JSR47 is not made up of interfaces but instead made up of classes it would be 
difficult to pass the TCK if you added anything to it. You could create new 
output targets/appenders/whatever but they could not be in the java.** 
namespace. 

JSR47 should not be considered in the same category as the servlet/JMS/ejb 
specs - more in the same category as the Collection API.

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Pete

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* Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, *
* and proving that there is no need to do so - almost *
* everyone gets busy on the proof.   *
*  - John Kenneth Galbraith   *
*-*

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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

2002-03-28 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 *gets the feeling that the project marketing campaign for Maven has
 begun and wonders if he bought into a time share and singed up for a
 free seminar by accident*

The funny thing is that some of the people marketing maven haven't even 
downloaded or used it yet :)

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Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software

2002-03-28 Thread Peter Donald

Just as a heads up. There will be something that helps you manage version 
information in jars in the next release (1.5). It semi-automates declaration 
of library name and version and it also allows the jar to declare 
dependencies on other libraries. It does this according the following spec.

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/guide/extensions/versioning.html.

This is used because it is the spec the EJB/Servlet/Service containers all 
seem to be adopting for library management. For a simplified explanation you 
may want to look at the section titled dependencies in 

http://jakarta.apache.org/ant/myrmidon/librarys.html

Anyways if there is a demand for this I can get it into the ant1.5 codebase 
earlier.

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 07:58, ajack wrote:
 I guess you folk have seen so many adhoc suggestions that you tend to
 attempt to form a consistent guideline out of them. I'm not convinced this
 particular approach has sufficient merit, or that there aren't better ones,
 it was just an idea I threw out based on initial findings. I am game to
 contribute what I can, but is this the forum? Do I become some owner of
 this, or what? I guess I need Jakarta contributions 101 before I go much
 further...

 That said, I am not sure a guideline is the place to go, and if I am asked
 to contributed, I guess I'd have to do it based upon my own beliefs. I feel
 that document (or manifest) based version management is too passive. When I
 found Javasoft's versioning mechanism was in JAR files it seemed clear why
 it has so little adoption [hell, I thought nothing exists, and I'm sure
 most folk think that.] Personally I feel investment would be better served
 in a commons-versioning [just made that up, hope I didn't upset some
 version4j folk] with some active classes (including dependency
 checking, start-up logging of version numbers, etc).

 I wish Java had a java.lang.Version class, 'cos their java.lang.Package
 class [from a few hours of poking at it  class loader] doesn't seem to cut
 it. That said, if it doesn't, perhaps a commons-logging type package could
 be formed, that filled the gap (and perhaps eventually showed Javasoft the
 need for one.)

 regards,

 Adam
 -Original Message-
 From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2002 1:33 PM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: Managing versions of Apache Jakarta software


 Well, at this point Adam, we don't so much has have a written guideline
 for creating a Jakarta release, so adding versioning to a non-existent
 guidelines poses something of a challenge :O)

 I have started some notes for a Release Manager's guide at

 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/guides.html

 What would be most helpful is that if you rolled your notes and
 experiences into a HOW-TO that the Release Managers might easily follow.
 As a deployment manager using several Jakarta products, you sound like
 just the person to write it.

 It is really not possible for use to create a standard release mechanism
 by fiat. So the next best thing is to make the right way the easy way,
 but giving people some simple instructions to follow. We're all
 interested in versioning, and run into the same problems you have; it's
 really a matter of documenting a procedure people can follow, and that
 we can point to if missed.

 -Ted.

 ajack wrote:
  All,
 
  I've been lucky enough to have benefited from a lot of the excellent
  packages put out be this community, e.g.

 ANT/XERCES/LOG4J/XALAN/SOAP2.2/AXIS

  etc etc, and I thank you all for that. Recently however my utilization of

 a

  lot of Apache software has bitten me (commons-logging in AXIS in this

 case),

  and it all comes down to JAR version hell  conflicts between various
  versions delivered with various components.
 
  Upon investigation I see that some Jakarta projects distribute JARs with
  version information inside (notably log4j, XALAN) and some do not
  (notable AXIS and commons-logging, which is sad since they are newer and
  changing,

 so

  need it badly.)
 
  Please please please make it a standard that all Jakarta JARs are
  distributed with correct version information in them. This will not

 resolve

  the JAR hell of conflicts, but it will allow folk to be able to document
  what exact versions they use of libraries  track down environmental

 issues.

  Just to attempt to help, here are some things I have found:
 
  Javasoft did provide a JAR versioning, albeit [unfortunately] in a

 manifest

  file, not in the code [so not great for keeping in synch, IMHO].

 http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs/guide/versioning/spec/VersioningSpecifica
t

  ion.html
  http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.2/docs/guide/versioning/
 
  http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.4/docs/guide/extensions/versioning.html
 
  Here is a sample manifest from LOG4J:
 
  Manifest-version: 1.0
 
  Name: org/apache/log4j/
  Implementation-Title: log4j
  Implementation-Version: 1.1.3

Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

2002-03-28 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:13, Scott Sanders wrote:
  -Original Message-
  From: Ceki Glc [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  I never suspected (nor suggested) that commons-logging effort
  was dishonorable in any way. My contention is that it will
  make life harder not easier. Nothing more, nothing less.

 I think it may make life harder for the commons, Log4J, and LogKit teams,

god no. The avalon group was already using a facade logger long before 
commons was for much the same reason commons adopted one. It also makes it 
much easier to have a slim logging system that just prints out to standard 
out or whatever when thats all you need.

 If we have problems with interoperability (and we will), we fix them.  Yes,
 someone has to ultimately dictate the logger to use.  As a commons
 developer, I do not want to force that choice onto anyone.  Let them
 decide.

Well I have got a bug report recently wrt LogKit integration. Apparently you 
removed support for it recently in a reorg or it is no longer detected or 
something (not sure I didn't really understand) which annoyed a couple of 
people. Dunno if this is still relevent though ;)

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Re: Comments on the commons-logging API

2002-03-28 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:38, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
 1) logging calls are made thousands of times so the indirection through
 an equalizer API (like commons-logging) has a performance impact

Not in modern JVMs (read most almost all jdk1.3 impls). 

As long as the underlying indirection (ie between commons and Log4j) is done 
via a final variable then the cost is zero due to JVM optimizations. Theres 
still the cost of the dynamic dispatch between user land code and commons 
code but that cost is very very minimal compared to the rest of the logging 
operations.

The cost comes in constructing the string objects (which is literally 
thousands times more expensive than a dynamic dispatch) and routing the log 
message. 

As long as the API supports functions like isDebugEnabled() (which I believe 
commons does? or at least did) then the performance cost is so negligable to 
be unimportant.

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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Donald

Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!

If some one would bug them to include JMX in their soon to be blessed list 
then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 07:38, Daniel F. Savarese wrote:
 Hot off the press:

 --- Forwarded Message
 From: Harold Ogle [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject:  JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation:

 The Apache Software Foundation published a position statement summarizing
 its concerns on the work in process to revise the JSPA. Sun is proposing
 changes to the JSPA draft so that all of Apache's requirements are
 satisfied.  To find out how this is or will be made so, both in letter and
 in spirit:

 http://jcp.org/aboutJava/communityprocess/announce/LetterofIntent.html

 ===
 To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body
 of the message signoff JCP-INTEREST.  For general help, send email to
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] and include in the body of the message help.

 --- End of Forwarded Message

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Re: JCP Program Chair responds to Apache Software Foundation (fwd)

2002-03-22 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 23 Mar 2002 16:00, Jason Hunter wrote:
 Peter Donald wrote:
  Wow this is absolutely fabulous - not what I expected to see - yea!!!
 
  If some one would bug them to include JMX in their soon to be blessed
  list then everything that we do at Apache would be legal - woooh!

 I'll pass that on.

Thanks for this and everything else you are doing!

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Re: [OT] JCP rant

2002-03-21 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 22 Mar 2002 06:47, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
 All very good points. The question on my mind is whether these
 problems can be corrected in the future by opening up the (JCP) Java
 Community Process or whether the closed-like-a-clamp is a symptom
 of a more serious and profound disease - my suggested name would
 be clampitis.

Actually I don't think that this is a huge problem in most JSRs. Theres is 
basically thrre types of information shared on a JSR.
1. Information to share between EG members (most restrictive)
2. Information to share between EG members and EG members host organization 
(ie sun employees can talk to Sun EG member)
3. Information that can be shared with public

Due to the structure of most JSRs (3) is not actually made available to the 
public and I would like that to change but I am not sure it would be good for 
java to remove (1) and (2).

Why are they needed? Well some companys wont take part in the discussions 
unless there (2). For instance I would hate to see Sony not adopt java in its 
next playstation due to this - and I think they would not have joined JSR134 
if they had to openly reveal proprietary IP.

It is also useful for some people who publish papers for a living (ie 
academics and researchers at big companys) as they usually can not freely 
distribute papers until given the thumbs up by publishers. However as an EG 
member I would prefer to see a relevent paper earlier than sooner.

However there are JSRs that have no good reason to carry much information in 
(1) and (2) categories and thus should be opened up.

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Re: LICENSE in .jar files

2002-03-20 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 21 Mar 2002 13:03, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 So could a non-tainted person through black box testing produce their
 own JAXP clone?

I don't see how as they need access to Suns IP someway and there is no way to 
get a license to do that. Ie can't use spec without being tainted and can't 
use any *legal* implementation of spec because all legal implementations are 
not able to grant the right of reimplementation. 

I doubt that would hold up in court but it has held up various opensource 
projects that are actually concerned about legalities (see the GNU Classpath 
archives).

Fun fun fun.

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Re: License issue (the come back)

2002-03-14 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 07:51, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Thu, 14 Mar 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
   They still include the jaxp source code, in xml-commons.
   But it's a clean-room implementation, made directly from the spec.
 
  The directly from the spec is where the problem lies. It uses suns IP
  and thus must the TCK. We don't and thus we are in violation of the
  license and thus Apache and every user is open to being sued if sun
  chooses to do so.

 This is getting intersting...

Thats one way of describing it ;)

 To be honest, I allways believed that Jaxp, and all are 'open standards'.
 ( i.e. they allow clean room implementation )

Nope ;(

 Again, we need a lawyer here - but if this is the case I think we
 should do something. There are plenty of open standards ( too many even

 :-), and if a spec is not open, it shouldn't be used -

 but an alternative (  or a new open standard ).

 I hear many java APIs are cloned to .net, and that a lot of .net is
 'open standard' - I'm pretty sure it has a lot of APIs that could do
 the same thing as the non-open ones, and we can clone them in java. An
 open API/standard should be used whenever possible.

Its sad when you start thinking microsofts platform is more open :/

I think this may be an avenue depending on how the revision of the JCP goes. 
If it doesn't go well and someone with enough political correctness was 
willing to go for it I think it would be a very good way to progress. 

It would first be a matter of establishing relationships with other big 
players in Java world that have clout and are sympathetic to our situation. 

ie If we could set up a decent process and work with other standards 
organizations (ECMA, IEEE, W3C), have a relatively formal participation 
contract (and thus *safe* from eyes of corporate/IP lawyers) and finally make 
allies of organisations like IBM, Apple and whoever else then it would be 
viable for many things. We could even join up with existing opensource 
organizations to cross-pollinate ideas. Apache + GNU + Eclipse + Netbeans + 
JBoss would make an impressive opensource shard. IBM + Apple + others would 
make a fairly convincing commercial shard. Join em together and we have a new 
Java standards body.

It still would be difficult to do anything with respect to the real core as 
Sun controls the source to a large degree. However for many of the other 
components/add-ons then it would be quite viable to do this. Especially if 
tools like JDiff+XDoclet could auotmate most API testing and functional 
testing could be done with JUnit or some other custom framework.

It is not so much a technical problem but a marketing one. Given the right 
environment I think it could happen - best to wait and see how JCP reorg 
turns out though.

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Re: Borland, Fujitsu, HP, IONA, Nokia, and Oracle voted with Sun tolock Open Source out of Java.

2002-03-14 Thread Peter Donald

On Fri, 15 Mar 2002 07:17, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
 I am not sure it should happen within the ASF (but maybe I am wrong).  For
 example the ASF wouldn't start developing hardware... it would be a huge
 leap. I think developing standards would be a similar leap... am I wrong?

Hell no. Look at all the pety bitching and moaning that goes on now - 
definetly not conducive to standards bodys which are meant to define 
specifications via which multiple groups can compete on implementations. 

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Re: License issue (the come back)

2002-03-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:41, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 BTW, the clause 'complete and unmodified' is very interesting - does it
 refers to the jar or the whole binary package ( most people refer to the
 whole downloaded package as 'software', and the jar is a piece of it ).
 If so, tomcat and most other packages that include it are breaking
 the licences, since they repackage and include only the jar.
 'Software' is previously defined as 'accompanying software
 and documentation and any error corrections provided by Sun (collectively
 Software)

yep ;)

 Even more fun is the restriction on creating 'java., javax., or sun.'
 packages. Does it mean that you're not allowed to include open source
 ( and clean room ) implementations of javax. pacakges if you include
 one of those licences ?

yep.

 The only possible conclusion is that software shouldn't be redistributed
 without a lawyer checking and aproving every included license, and
 we need a list of licenses that are acceptable for inclusion on
 packages we distribute ( from jakarta, xml, etc ), verified by a lawyer.

Correct - but even packages that presumably have IBM (and sun?) people 
working on them have questionable legalities. Take xerces (or crimson), at 
one stage they included the jaxp source code and even if it doesn't anymore 
it surely links against it.

However I can't see how this is even vaguely legal - due to the licensing 
issues brought up recently wrt the JCP process. It uses the products of the 
JCP and I am not aware of any different licensing policy for the jaxp stuff. 
Nor am I aware of any publically avaiable TCK for the JAXP library which 
means that apaches xml parser is in violation of the license for JAXP spec. I 
could be wrong but thats how I understand it and as such even major projects 
at Apache are not legal. Fun eh?

I presume there is some form of implied consent/licensing or somethin gthat 
may hold up if it ever went to court but even then I really dislike the fact 
that we have to rely on the good will of a company not to sue apache or even 
worse to sue Apaches users ;(

Then again IANAL and could be completely wrong? Anyone want to explain why I 
am wrong? :)

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Re: License issue (the come back)

2002-03-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 14 Mar 2002 03:04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Wed, 13 Mar 2002, Peter Donald wrote:
  Correct - but even packages that presumably have IBM (and sun?) people
  working on them have questionable legalities. Take xerces (or crimson),
  at one stage they included the jaxp source code and even if it doesn't
  anymore it surely links against it.

 They still include the jaxp source code, in xml-commons.
 But it's a clean-room implementation, made directly from the spec.

The directly from the spec is where the problem lies. It uses suns IP and 
thus must the TCK. We don't and thus we are in violation of the license and 
thus Apache and every user is open to being sued if sun chooses to do so.

  Nor am I aware of any publically avaiable TCK for the JAXP library which
  means that apaches xml parser is in violation of the license for JAXP
  spec. I could be wrong but thats how I understand it and as such even
  major projects at Apache are not legal. Fun eh?

 Probably it only mean it can't have a logo with 'jaxp' on it.

nope - if you use the IP then it needs to pass TCK - to do otherwise is not 
legal. Unless we have another license agreement concerning jaxp with Sun that 
is unpublished (as alluded to before) then we are not legal. It may be thrown 
out in court but it is still expensive to fight it.

 We also use a clean room implementation of JMX in tomcat, same thing
 probably applies there.

JMX has always been under a different license and I didn't think you had a 
clean room impl you just had some MBeans.

 AFAIK ( and again don't take my word for it, call your lawyer :-), clean
 room implementations based on a published spec are perfectly
 legal. Probably the name/logo is protected, but saying that your
 code implements/is based on jaxp/jmx/etc ( but is not 'certified' or
 'compatible' ) should be ok.

Wrong - at least as I understand the licensing issue. To implement the 
spec(s) in many cases you must pass the TCK. It can cost a fair chunk of $ to 
run against the TCK which pretty much excludes all opensource projects from 
ever legally implementing different specs (ie the XML ones we do at apache).

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Re: JakartaOne

2002-03-12 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 11 Mar 2002 15:19, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 Before we do the call for papers, does anyone really care?  I would rather
 do nothing than do something lame.

 Serious show of hands here - if you will be in the area, and are interested
 in attending, say so.  Feel free to send to me directly so we don't bomb
 the list with that kind of noise.  I will post a summary.

Love to come along and see some faces but melbournes a long way away ;)


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Re: cvs commit: jakarta-poi/build/jakarta-poi/docs/apidocs/org/apache/poi/util - New directory

2002-03-12 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 9 Mar 2002 01:14, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 As a future suggestion: probably at least one committer to every project
 should have access to the webserver.  I know its important to protect it
 and all, but since there is currently no good alternative...  It doesn't
 work otherwise.  Trust me.

In theory thats what your champion is supposed to do. ie Whoever is your 
champion does all the updating until you know the system enough and get given 
appropriate access/permissions/instructions. Bug them and all should flow ;)

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Re: POI web update

2002-03-03 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 10:16, dIon Gillard wrote:
 Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Cool..  thanks man!
 
 On Sun, 2002-03-03 at 16:55, Sam Ruby wrote:
 I've added poi to the list of sites which I automatically update every
  six hours.
 
 See: http://www.apache.org/~rubys/updatesite.log1 ..
 http://www.apache.org/~rubys/updatesite.log4 .
 
 - Sam Ruby

 Sam,

 Would it be possible to add another site (latka) into that list?

and avalon and ant? ;)

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Re: POI nightly builds and upcoming release howto

2002-03-01 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:22, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 How do we get nightly builds/source releases happening and posting?
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html

Ask Sam nicely to update his cron job to do that for you.

 Once we release how do we get the release put up:
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/binindex.html in the appropriate place.

Once you have signed the release, generated the HEADER.html to describe your 
release then you upload it all to the directory 

/www/jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-poi/releases/1.5/

on codejakarta.apache.org/code. If no one has permission to do that then 
you can ask for permission or get someone else to do it.

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Re: POI nightly builds and upcoming release howto

2002-03-01 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:29, Peter Donald wrote:
 on codejakarta.apache.org/code. If no one has permission to do that
 then you can ask for permission or get someone else to do it.

Note to self. When writing Javadocs use HTML tags, when writing email - dont! 
When swapping between two activities remember to kick your brain into action.


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Some can avoid it.  Geniuses remove it.
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Re: update POI web

2002-02-28 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 28 Feb 2002 23:50, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 I committed a few changes to the POI website (new committers, new high
 level
 components, etc) a week ago or so and so far these haven't rolled over
 to
 the website.  Can someone with httpd access update it please?

I tried to do it but someone *sough* sanders *cough* needs to change thier 
umask because they updated your website and forgot to make it world writeable 
;)

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
 It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
 because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
 seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
 thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

mickysoft ? Hmmm ... 

The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the 
steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot 
to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.

Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an 
open platform but wont be because it is not.

 Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
 no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
 is a bit premature don't you think?

Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both 
already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of 
other parts of these projects aswell.  There is also external ports of other 
projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I 
am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.

I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements 
in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs. 
However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other 
opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would 
definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also 
do so.

Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really 
depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
 Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code
 than Sun Microsystems?  

err ... you trolling ? guess so.

 I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with
 their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more
 restrictive. 

actually the C# language is less restrictive. The PMC head of jakarta 
actually sits as a spec lead (or chair or whatever the ECMA calls it) on one 
of the standardization groups.

Compare this to the Java language which can not be reimplemented outside of 
sun legally. Fun eh?

Of course no need to lets facts get in the way pof a good religion.

 Why don't we get a dialogue going on
 why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem

a few people have tried that and look where it got. 

 rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter,
 if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.

intelligent argument. I think you left out phrases like Microshaft or 
Micro$loth or whatever it is you kiddies use these days. 

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Re: adding my project to jakarta

2002-02-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:41, Nathaniel G. Auvil wrote:
 My name is Nathaniel Auvil and I run the jCharts project hosted at
 http://sourceforge.net/projects/jcharts/

 I was wondering if there would be any possibility of jCharts joining the
 Jakarta project.  I have been carrying all the weight of this project since
 its inception have trouble finding people who want to contribute to the
 project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the Jakarta project, help
 would be easier to find.

I would suggest you look into first becoming part of the commons project and 
going from there

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Sun and Licensing issues

2002-02-22 Thread Peter Donald

Hi,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about Apaches stance regarding the 
JCP/Sun entity and its licensing practices. I have heard a few different 
opinions ranging from Sun the evil empire is doing bad things to the 
whiny Apache people are whining about being abused by Sun. Whatever.

Here is my understanding of the situation.

When a JSR is created all participants must license their IP to Sun 
allowing Sun to use it in a relatively liberal fashion. Eventually a 
standard is created and is licensed to the public. One of the conditions of 
the license is that any implementation created using the standard must pass 
the TCK. 

So lets say I wanted to create an implementation of some standard - lets say 
JavaMail. Inevitably I would need to look at the standards documents or 
implementation etc. The license conditions require that I pass the TCK if I 
am to use any of the IP. 

So even if I wrote a completely clean room implementation of JavaMail I would 
be in violation of the license for the standard unless I ponied up the $ to 
pass the TCK. And if Sun wanted (and their license stood up in court) they 
could kill the project eaisly enough (Aassuming that an opensource project 
cant afford TCK testing).

So strictly speaking projects like xerces/xalan (which implement JAXP spec) 
are in violation of this license? So to are projects like JBoss , OpenJM*, 
OpenEJB etc. Suns is unlikely to go after these projects unless they felt 
that it hurt the java brand. 

SO if xerces were to be implemented in C# and exposed an API similar to JAXP 
but for C# Sun may try to shut it down. If JBoss tried to do port to C# would 
Sun try to block it? However they presumably couldn't do this to a C# 
catalina as the TCK is watchdog?

Isn't what Apache has a problem with is that the TCKs are not licensed in an 
open manner so that there is the possibility of a legal opensource 
implementation of the APIs? 

This is even more of a problem given that many of the TCKs created by EG 
members or Spec Leads and not by Sun (except those cases where Sun is on EG 
or a Spec Lead). 

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Re: distribute minimal jar

2002-02-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 14 Feb 2002 10:47, Vladimir Bossicard wrote:
 I have implemented this solution but I think it would be better if this
 is done directly by the Jakarta project itself.

Feel free to join up to alexandria-dev and look at the gump proposal. It 
should minimal changes to this product to get this working (gump already 
produces the minimal jars). I look forward to your patches.

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-06 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
*if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair
chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice
license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
  
   BUT THERE WON'T BE!
 
  you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people
  envy

 I don't respond to personal attacks.

If you think thats a personal attack then ...

  the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
  years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the
  opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).

 Right, but what I mean is this:  If you attempt to maintain
 compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
 and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
 from COM and .NET etc.

Have you actually looked at the language?

  er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
  enough to make it one of the best releases yet.

 So the IO stuff made it?  I heard it was pushed to 1.5!  I've been
 running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
 it.  I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
 I know and what was pushed back etc. 

Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is 
not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically 
support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be 
present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :)

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Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

2002-02-06 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 7 Feb 2002 18:49, Bill Barker wrote:
 - Original Message -
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2002 10:36 PM
 Subject: Re: PMC Nomination - Costin Manolache

  After some thinking, I'm going to accept the nomination, even
  if I don't quite believe jakarta needs 'management', 'committee' or
  any other function besides 'jakarta commiter'.

 If not for other reasons, for this alone, Costin has my (now ruled useless)
 +1.

Big +1 from me too. Wouldn't it be great if it was a requirement for PMC 
peeps to think this way :)


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| Programming today is a race between software engineers  |
| striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof |
| programs,and the universe trying to produce bigger and  |
| better idiots. So far, the universe is winning. |
|   - Richard Cook|
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
 
  Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
  proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
  standardized?
 
  Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
  about Java?

 Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
 to get back at SUN?  Heck no.

You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head 
on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent 
change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are 
starting to look interesting.

Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java 
(much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C 
based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize 
bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).

*if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of 
people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT 
that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. 

I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but 
everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java 
advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. 
Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find 
interesting. 

If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java 
still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it 
would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - 
still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly 
fall down in that area. 

It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM 
people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux 
peeps then  who knows ;)

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Pete

You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by
definition, half of them are even dumber than that!
J.R. Bob Dobbs

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:09, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:
 Hi Stefano,

  -Mensaje original-
  De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 [...]

  My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
  Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
  java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

 And you will be a tinkerer, able to create a non-commercial bare-bones
 application in two seconds. For more, you will have to pay Microsoft.

err - you read what people write? Look at the license above. Do you consider 
people use other OSS tinkerers? In no way will you ever have to pay MS to use 
one of these impls.

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
  On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
   
Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
standardized?
   
Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still
optimistic about Java?
  
   Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary
   thing to get back at SUN?  Heck no.
 
  You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as
  head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With
  the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource
  runtimes things are starting to look interesting.

 Can I run it on Linux?  Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
 Linux.

yes. Thats its primary target.

  *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk
  of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license
  like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.

 BUT THERE WON'T BE! 

you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy 
the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away 
years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece 
version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).

  If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
  still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then
  it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as
  MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost
  certainly fall down in that area.

 So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
 time its taken.  Mostly candy no meat.

er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is 
enough to make it one of the best releases yet.

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Pete


Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today.


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Re: Jakarta PMC Nomination - Rejection

2002-02-01 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 2 Feb 2002 07:19, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 Hey all,

 I just wanted to say that I'm not going to accept my Jakarta PMC nomination
 and do not want to be included in the voting for the next election.

 I have been involved with Java Apache/Jakarta since Sept 1996 and I think
 that it is time for me to move on from being politically responsible for
 this group. Honestly, I'm jaded and burned out on it all.

sorry to see you go.

 That said, I recently signed a 10 year lease on a prime event space in
 downtown San Francisco and I am moving towards spending more time being a
 big time night club owner than working on Jakarta. More info:
 http://www.studioz.tv/ (p.s. that site is built with Anakia smile)

kool.

 I also just released Scarab 1.0b1 and am focused primarily on making Scarab
 the best issue tracking tool around. Expect to see more great developments
 on this project. It is by far, one of the best designed, largest and most
 complex pieces of software that I have ever had the pleasure of helping
 develop. It will be around for a very long time and will eventually put
 Bugzilla out of business. More info: http://scarab.tigris.org/

So when do we get to replace Jakartas Bugzilla with this ?
:)

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Pete

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|answers. - Pablo Picasso |
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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:58, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 For starters:
 I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
 rest of the JDK.

I think it is - or at least it used to be? The J2EE trademark is protected as 
much as the Java trademark is - in some ways less in some ways more.  Ask Sun 
whether you can have an opensource java impl and they will say no because we 
haven't revealed it all. The differenceis that J2EE also has significantly 
more IP tied up in it that would possibly make it a difficult proposition to 
cleanly rewrite - though this is the same with some parts of core java 
classes (ie RMI and friends).

 In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
 compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
 of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
 extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell another.

Isn't that the best way to advance technology? Leave room for vendors to play 
and when the vendors have played with a feature long enough, merge the best 
ideas together and develope a spec. It was a lot worse in past but with 
auxilliary APIs/JSRs like deployment and management APIs coming out.

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Pete

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Re: Ant2

2002-01-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 05:19, Sam Ruby wrote:
 [[ moved to general ]]

 Costin Manolache wrote:
  Maybe I'm crazy, but so far I did a lot of the build.xml changes every
  time a new ant was released, with all the pain of trying (without
  success ) to make it work with the old version and the new one. I suppose
  Remy and Craig know what I'm talking about. Given that we use ant for
  testing, and we already have a lot of ant files - please at least follow
  the discussions, it'll affect us as well. I don't have the time or energy
  to try to convince Peter and the others pushing for those changes...

 You have to ask yourself: if Peter and others go off into left field, how
 many people will follow?

if *ant-dev* and others go off into left field, how many people will follow? 
;)

Answer: None if it sucks or doesn't offer enough bang for buck

 The way I plan to participate in this discussion is through Gump.  If Peter
 or Conor ever get to the point where they would like to propose a code base
 for Ant2, I'll start executing and posting trial runs against all of the
 projects that I follow.  

Hopefully it will be before a proposal gets made. It would be nice for it to 
be a pre-req for proposal adoption that 95% of gump builds clean or similar. 
That would be kool.

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Pete


The only way to discover the limits of the possible 
is to go beyond them into the impossible. 
 -Arthur C. Clarke



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Re: [PROPOSAL] POI @ Jakarta

2002-01-17 Thread Peter Donald

+1

On Fri, 18 Jan 2002 06:45, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Proposal for POI - A Jakarta Subproject
 version 1.0 - 17 Jan 2002

 (0) rationale

 The POI project seeks to provide pure Java APIs for reading, creating
 and manipulating files written in formats based on Microsoft OLE 2
 Compound Document Format.  The POI project has already successfully
 created a Pure Java OLE 2 Compound Document Format library (POIFS) and a
 port of the Microsoft Excel '97(-2002) file format (aka XLS, BIFF8) and
 tools for serializing XML in these formats (which will be hosted as part
 of Cocoon 2).

 The POI project user community is growing leaps and bounds in usage as
 evidenced by its position as one of the most active projects on
 SourceForge and the 2,290 people who have downloaded it so far this
 month.  The POI project currently has two active developers.  The
 development community  might be small but is fanatically committed (and
 growing rather  quickly).  It is likely that the upcoming port of the
 Microsoft Word 97 File format will increase the size of the development
 community, not to mention the user community.  The documentation is
 comprehensive and includes full documentation on the previously
 undocumented (or at least incompletely documented) Microsoft OLE 2
 Compound Document Format. There are also HOW-TO documents that
 illustrate use cases and examples. Lastly, The project founders have
 agreed to collaborate with a developer at the OpenOffice.org project on
 the Excel File Format Documentation.

 Many Jakarta projects could potentially take advantage of POI and its
 use in Jakarta will likely further seed the POI developer community.
 POI is a unique project in the Java world.  Up until now there have been
 no successful free attempts to provide read/write access to OLE 2 CDF or
 MS Excel (97+) file formats. POI coupled with other Jakarta technologies
 could produce some highly useful offspring.  A few specific examples
 might be Office Document indexing for Lucene, Velocity generating Excel
 and Word document presentations, Office document management capabilities
 for Slide as well as content delivery and editing in Turbine.

 POI would make it possible to use Jakarta and XML-Apache projects in
 many cases where currently a proprietary solution is currently required.

 (1) scope of the subproject

 The subproject shall create and maintain packages written in the Java
 language, intended for use in generating and reading files in formats
 based on the OLE 2 Compound Document Format.

 (2) identify the initial source from which the subproject is to be
 populated

 The initial packages would be based on existing POI codebase currently
 located at SourceForge:

 http://poi.sourceforge.net

 (3) identify the Jakarta resources to be created

 (3.1) mailing list(s)

 poi-user
 poi-dev

 (3.2) CVS repositories

 jakarta-poi

 (3.3) Bugzilla

 program - poi
 components - Web site, POIFS, HSSF, HDF

 (3.4) Jyve FAQ (when available)

 poi-general
 poi-poifs
 poi-hssf
 poi-hdf

 (4) identify the initial set of committers

 Andrew Oliver
 Marcus Johnson

 (5) identify apache sponsoring individual

 Stefano Mazzocchi

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Pete

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Jakarta PMC bylaws change

2002-01-16 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 06:27, Sam Ruby wrote:
 The number of PMC seats will be set at seven.  Annually, all seven seats
 will be up for renewal.  The ASF board will be asked to provide a person or
 persons to administer the nominations and a subsequent ballot. The
 administrator(s) will determine the mechanics of the voting procedures.
 Any committer to any Jakarta code base will be eligible to vote.  Once the
 new PMC is in place, the first order of business will be to determine a
 chairperson from amongst their ranks.

 Once ratified, this proposal would be effective immediately, and an
 election would be initiated.

Sounds good - but this kinda has one other implication. The PMC will no 
longer be able to adequetly cover all sub-projects - it would be quite 
possible that some some projects would be completely without representation.

If this was put in place it kinda suggests that maybe jakarta should not be 
so big ... ;)

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 looking for. Move along. 


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Re: Updating the site

2002-01-16 Thread Peter Donald

Read.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2.html

or recently proposed

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jakarta-site2b.html

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:26, Andy Armstrong wrote:
 I've updated this page

  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/cvsonwin32.html

 to reflect the fact that PuTTY, a free / open source SSH client, now
 supports tunnelling and can be used to build tunnels for CVS.

 How do I commit the changes?

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Pete

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Re: Managing project documentation (release vs CVS versions) ?

2002-01-16 Thread Peter Donald

The recomended solution for this is to use a branch. ie When you make a 
release you also branch at same instant. Then if you need to update the 
current web docs you modify them in the branch, then update the website 
(which is using last branch released). If you need to update the docs for the 
current CVS then you do it in the main trunk/HEAD revision. When needed you 
merge the branch back into the main trunk.

However I don't know of any projects that do this except for ant. 

It may also require a bit more CVS savvy that normal but should be possible 
to do if that is what cactus/whatever needs.

On Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:34, Vincent Massol wrote:
 Hi,

 I have always been pondering how to best manage the following. Should
 there be 2 web sites per project : one for the latest release
 (containing docs + javadoc corresponding to the latest release) and one
 for nightly builds (containing docs + javadocs corresponding to the
 latest code) ?

 When I work on a new feature that I want to document, I cannot document
 it in the xdocs/ directory because next time I change something for the
 web site and I want to make that change visible, it will also contain
 the new feature documentation. However, that feature is only present in
 CVS (not released yet) and users will have trouble understanding why
 this feature does not work with the code they downloaded. Of course, I
 could have a header that says WARNING: Feature only available in CVS
 but it is awkward. Another solution is to have 2 xdocs directory but
 again this is awkward ...

 Any idea ? How are other projects doing this ?

 Thanks
 -Vincent

 ___
 Vincent Massol
 OCTO Technology UK Ltd
 www.octo.com
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Tel: (020) 8996 9540

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Pete

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| to test a man's character, give him power.  |
|   -Abraham Lincoln   |
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Re: Free Wi32-CVS Gui client

2002-01-15 Thread Peter Donald

do a web search with the words win and cvs in it. SHouldn't be hard to find 
one. Alternatively go to the wincvs site.

On Wed, 16 Jan 2002 10:15, Armin Zeltner wrote:
 Hi,

 I need a good free wi32 cvs client with gui.

 Any websites for download?

 THX Armin

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Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage

2002-01-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 00:18, Sam Ruby wrote:
 Peter Donald wrote:
  Unless you plan on adding similar comments for a few other projects I

 would

  suggest you remove the commons advertising

 Why?  Should the reference to Turbine be removed from
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/source.html ?

 Do you have a proposed patch?  Something you would like to add?

Um ... here is the section I am talking about 

Jakarta can host a product within a top-level subproject, or as a component 
in the Jakarta Commons. This document covers what is expected of a proposal 
for a top-level Jakarta subproject. The Jakarta Commons has a similar but 
different procedure for accepting new products. See the Jakarta Commons site 
for details.

Is this something you think is needed and should be in the jakarta guidelines?

 Guys, I can understand why some of you may not want to participate in other
 activities, but this is no excuse for attempting to block the progress of
 others.

hmm - exactly how am I blocking the progress of commons? 

I have wanted to do something very similar to commons for ages - hell way 
before JDD even proposed AUT which was way before commons was proposed. And 
if you recall I was somewhat active in early library-dev discussions, no? Do 
you disagree with anything here?

Have I ever blocked anybody moving anything to commons?

Yes I would love to particpate in commons but I probably wont because I 
consider the management process of it broken. 

Consider this - how many committers are there in commons atm - 10, 20, 30 ? 
Now to get a new project moved you need a 3/4 vote - lets be generous and say 
about 12 votes! That seems real likely.

Then you have the joy that every commons committer has voting rights on 
everything - even code they have never contributed and never will - sounds 
like a great meritocracy - right? M, just the sort of thing we are 
meant to be promoting.

So yes theres buckets of stuff in ant, in excalibur and at home that I would 
love to move to commons but that aint going to happen till its fixed or if 
ever.

Considering you seem to be accusing me of blocking progress in commons I want 
you to explain it in real simple terms how I am doing it? I seem to be a bit 
think and can't quite figure it out.

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Pete

Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech. - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage

2002-01-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 01:05, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
  Consider this - how many committers are there in commons atm - 10, 20, 30
  ? Now to get a new project moved you need a 3/4 vote - lets be generous
  and say about 12 votes! That seems real likely.

 And we are looking at changing that we recognize that is starting to become
 a hurdle.  Things change.  Things evolve.  We learn.

kool.

  Then you have the joy that every commons committer has voting rights on
  everything - even code they have never contributed and never will -
  sounds like a great meritocracy - right? M, just the sort of thing
  we are meant to be promoting.

 I also agree - I am uncomfortable with that, and have been from day one. 
 To be fair though, it hasn't resulted in any huge problems yet.

It never does until the first problem - when this changes and this evolves 
you will have another active developer. Wanna propose a vote on commons? 
Technically I believe am a committer and could even +1 it :)

-- 
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Pete

Frank Zappa observed: It's not getting any smarter out
   there.You have to come to terms with
   stupidity, and make it work for you.

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Re: updating subproject websites

2002-01-13 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 10:17, robert burrell donkin wrote:
 On Sunday, January 13, 2002, at 10:00 PM, Peter Donald wrote:
  On Mon, 14 Jan 2002 07:50, robert burrell donkin wrote:
  i find jakarta-site2.html a little bit confusing. so - as requested on
  the
  page - i'm providing some feedback :)
 
  i think i find it confusing since it's aimed at answering several
  questions all in one page. maybe it'd be better to organize it as a base
  page with separate pages for each of these questions. i think that the
  questions they want answered are:
 
  As soon as you send a patch to make it so it may get done ;)

 i still don't know the definitive answer to my question - which was (i
 know that it was easy to miss in that last mail) what's the right way to
 update the web pages for a standard sub project. therefore a patch would
 be a little premature...

You described it in a relatively clear fashion so I figured you knew :)

More precisely it goes something like

1. generate documentation (project specific though most use anakia)
2. commit to CVS
3. SSH to jakarta.apache.org
4. cd /www/jakarta.apache.org/mySubProject
5. cvs up
6 Make sure that you have the correct permissions set for all the files you 
updated

I believe the admins were trying to reduce the number of people with access 
to jakarta box so if you don't have permission to do 3 then just bug someone 
in the project who does or drop a note here and someone will update for you.

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Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage

2002-01-12 Thread Peter Donald

On Sun, 13 Jan 2002 09:54, Ted Husted wrote:
 There's a proposed redraft of the Subproject Proposals page at

 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject2.html

 It's mainly a refactoring, adding subheadings, and so forth, and relies
 on the content of the original page

 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

 which is linked from the Guidelines Notes section.

Unless you plan on adding similar comments for a few other projects I would 
suggest you remove the commons advertising

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Re: Cultural homogeneity

2002-01-11 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 04:38, Gunnar Rønning wrote:
 * Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 | On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 03:08, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
 |  Some of the existing projects within Jakarta are server-side only,
 |  others are client-side as well as server-side, none are client-side
 |  only.
 |
 | except for JMeter ?

 JMeter is useful for testing server side applications and I think it would
 be within scope. For me Jakarta is a bunch of projects that are useful for
 development of server side applications.

And ant is useful because it may be used to build server side projects? 
Wouldn't swing components be also useful because most serverside components 
require you to build somethintg to communicate? ;)

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Pete

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Re: [OT] Groupware Website Recommendations

2002-01-11 Thread Peter Donald

On Sat, 12 Jan 2002 11:02, Ted Husted wrote:
 Since the rates weren't published, I figured as much :)

 This is still in the speculative stages, but in the event that we
 attract some capital, I'd very much like to come knocking on
 collab.net's door. In the meantime, I'd like to get started it on the
 right foot, but since it's not an open source project :(, sourceforge
 doesn't seem like an option. So, I was just wondering if there were
 something in between.

You can download sourceforge code (alexandria project on sourceforge IIRC) 
then setup and install it. It is a bit painful to do and a bit inflexible but 
apparently some people have cleaned it up a bit (see the forums for the 
project) however I haven't had a look at any of the forks - though I have 
heard good things about a debian fork of it. Of course this is relatively 
linux/unix specific

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Pete


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Re: More abuse of coding styles...

2002-01-10 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:07, Daniel Rall wrote:
 Ceki Glc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  People who repeatedly forget to type this represent a minority and
  should perhaps look to exercise a different profession.

 Agreed.

I agree - using the compiler to detect errors is such a stupid idea. Real 
programmers dont need that. 

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Re: More abuse of coding styles...

2002-01-10 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 21:59, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 1/10/02 2:54 AM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 14:07, Daniel Rall wrote:
  Ceki Glc [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  People who repeatedly forget to type this represent a minority and
  should perhaps look to exercise a different profession.
 
  Agreed.
 
  I agree - using the compiler to detect errors is such a stupid idea.
  Real programmers dont need that.

 Real programmers don't use compilers...

too true ;)

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Re: More abuse of coding styles...

2002-01-10 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 22:16, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 1/10/02 6:11 AM, Stephane Bailliez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  -Original Message-
  From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 
  [...]
 
  Real programmers don't use compilers...
 
  It looks like there were needs for some punching balls to start 2002 :-)
  In 10 days there are more messages in jakarta-general than in the last 2
  months.

 We got a lot accomplished though :)

like always :)

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  why most men dread it. - Locke



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Re: License change for new year ?

2002-01-09 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 10:55, Vincent Massol wrote:
 1/ Now that we are in 2002, do we need to change the text in all our
 license files to be : Copyright (c) 1999-2002 The Apache Software
 Foundation instead of Copyright (c) 1999-2001 The Apache Software
 Foundation ?

should change it to include 2002. However the start date is determined by 
when the project actually started/was donated to Apache - so many of the 
newer ones will be 2001-2002

 2/ Some license files only have Copyright (c) 1999 The Apache Software
 Foundation and some others have a year range as in Copyright (c)
 1999-2001 The Apache Software Foundation. Should one be preferred over
 the other ? Are they both valid ?

It should be the longest duration at which it has been continuously developed 
and owned by Apache. So most projects will be one of

1999-2002
2000-2002
2001-2002

However some projects were mothballed and if we ever restarted work on them 
we would have to do something like

1999-2000,2002 (for stylebook for instance)

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Re: License change for new year ?

2002-01-09 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:24, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 Here's a quick question - what makes that a rule?  Ted putting it into a
 file?

It is a legal requirement for the license to be valid.

 I don't disagree with the  suggestion - I mean, we need to do it - I am
 just asking what makes it a rule now

Anything that we decide to make a rule (hopefully little), anything that is 
part of Apaches culture/regulations/bylaws etc, anything required to 
protect Apache or committers or codebase (usually these are the legal uglies)

am I missing anything ?

 On the issue itself, isn't this something that should be uniformly done
 across all Apache projects?

 I would think that since it's part of the License, we want uniformity.

It would probably be a good idea. You could post this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
to proceed if you want. Theres also a lawyer on that list which will be able 
to make sure we are doing the right thing.

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|   to be asleep. -Navajo Proverb.   |
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Re: License change for new year ?

2002-01-09 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:45, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 1/9/02 8:30 PM, Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 12:24, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
  Here's a quick question - what makes that a rule?  Ted putting it into a
  file?
 
  It is a legal requirement for the license to be valid.

 Of course.  What I am asking is  what makes it a Jakarta rule that the
 mentioned procedure is how it's supposed to work.  See what I'm getting at?

not really sure what you mean. The one thing that the PMC is required to do 
is enforce all the legalities of stuff. This is legality thing that has to be 
done. The PMC has to enforce regardless or not it is in the rules for 
jakarta 

 Jon said put that rule in and I was wondering about the process of when
 we decided that specific thing was a rule.

I don't see it as an addition - merely documenting something that already is 
implictly a rule. I never knew about this sort of thing until about 9 months 
ago when a lawyer tried to explain it all to me (though failed at some parts 
cause I had no idea what he was talking about).

Documenting it is good because then people who know not a lot about legalese 
and friends don't have to think ;)

If it was an actualy change proposed it would have to go through the whole 
propose, bitchslap, whine, vote, propose, whine, bitchslap, vote  until 
it got accepted (and ignored), agreed to or everyone thought the subjects was 
dull and stopped participating ;)

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Re: License change for new year ?

2002-01-09 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 10 Jan 2002 13:36, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Just a question.  Maybe I missed this in the discussions.  Every once
 and a while the short license versus big license discussion goes
 through here.  Meaning the source code for some projects whether
 correctly or incorrectly be convention uses a statement and short
 reference to the license and others post the license in its entirety.
 Did anyone consult those licensing folks to check if there was a legal
 reasoning?  While I have no particular passion on this and don't wish to
 see a war here, I do know some projects use one and others use another
 and I'm just curious if there are any legal problems that could result.

 (at POI we use the long form convention because it seems to be in line
 with where the discussion leaned on here and I'm a paranoid type person)

Theres no legal reason for either case as long as they both are accurate and 
don't misrepresent the license. Some people froth at the mouth at one style 
or the other to an even greater degree than code standards so basically do 
what you are comfortable with.

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Pete

*-*
* Faced with the choice between changing one's mind, *
* and proving that there is no need to do so - almost *
* everyone gets busy on the proof.   *
*  - John Kenneth Galbraith   *
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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:03, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 In this email, all I hear you doing is pointing fingers.

It has nothing to do with that. I keep hearing you and other people say 
jakarta is broken. However as far as I can tell it is just talk whenever 
someone steps on your toes. You don't really care when other peoples toes get 
stepped on or when you do th stepping. So how can really expect anyone to 
care about your issues?

 As for me fixing Jakarta...I'm not sure I have enough people interested in
 helping fixing Jakarta. For example, Sam (our current leader) and others
 see nothing wrong with the current process. I'm also not certain I have
 enough energy to fight anymore...especially now that we have so many people
 willing to give their $0.00 opinion and not back that up with action.

 Honestly, I'm considering leaving entirely...or at least doing what I see
 everyone else doing...putting their head in a hole and just doing whatever
 the fuck they want to do. Not helpful, but like all of you, I don't have
 time either.

 The failure of Jakarta will be in the reality that no one has the time or
 energy to keep it running.

It really doesn't take much energy or effort. It takes a few minor 
compromises by people like yourself. Re: build.xml format again - it was your 
insistence that your way is right and screw everyone else who conflicted with 
you that led me to not bother pursuig it. If jakarta is failing it is because 
of people like you who are unwilling to compromise. 

When I see you change your attitude to match your words then I will be 
interested, till then I just see you whining when someone does to you, what 
you do to other projects.

Anyways personally I have watched this change occur. I would prefer that 
Jakarta conformed to your vision but I don't think it will. So instead of 
seeing it as a failure I prefer to see it a sa different version of success ;)

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Pete

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(Actually, this is Finagle's law, which in itself 
shows that Finagle was right.)
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Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:29, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 I also will say I haven't seen community crosstalk between XML and Jakarta,
 from the point of view as communities.  I know there are individuals who
 contribute greatly to both communities, and many of us here in Jakarta
 depend on XML projects.  But in the sense of us really having discussion of
 cross-community issues, the only one I can recall seeing is Stefano's
 request to disband PMCs because of his  issues with XML's.

You would be surprised. The majority of avalon developers are from XML land 
for one. Other projects have more or less communication - but thats not 
really different from inter-jakarta projects.

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:36, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
 The JBoss guys are very smart. Scott Stark is extremely high caliber. Mark
 is no idiot either. Jboss is successful because it is so fucking good. From
 where I stand, the other appservers are just copying JBoss. Where do you
 think the MBean architecture in Weblogic 6.x came from?

What a laff! JBoss and Weblogics MBean use is completely and utterly 
different - JBoss uses JMX as a services architecture while Weblogic uses JMX 
as a management interface (you know - what it was designed for). 

The only way that BEA could possibly decide to use the standard 
management interface to manage its server is to see JMX used in a completely 
different manner - I am not sure how I missed that. It really is innovative 
how BEA decided to use the standard management API when it built its 
management interface. They had no idea that JMX was going to be integrated 
into J2EE at that stage - how could they.

 The problem with JBoss is that while they innovate BEA and IBM make all the
 dough. Such is the nature of opensource. Bloody fucking hell!

gotta love experts.

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warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win. 
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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:55, Peter Donald wrote:
 The best way to describe it was something I think Craig said, something
 like - it doesn't much matter if there is an existing project with same
 aims, what matters is what committers are willing to commit to.

err maybe it was Ted ;)

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 01:40, Sam Ruby wrote:
 Peter Donald wrote:
 So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
   
Would there be a point to that?
  
   It depends on whether and how you want to contribute.
   There still is a lot of work to do. Ceki
 
  And theres the rub.

 These one (or two) line answers don't do much to illuminate the issues.
 Let me try to rectify this:

actually thats not the point I was trying to get across (but an interesting 
one none the less). The point I was trying to get across was about Cekis 
attitude is precisely why Jakarta is the way it is and why it is going to 
only get worse. 

He has no problem with me working for Log4j but the idea of actual 
collaboration is foreign. Now wouldn't it have been more interesting 
if he had said lets get together and collaborate on Log4j v2 as you suggest 
or even just sharing the common infrstructure. However he didn't. He wants me 
to work on his project.

I wonder if Jon asked Craig to work on turbine whether he would accept? 
hm I wonder.

 Ceki, fundamental to Avalon is a design pattern that is referred to as
 Inversion of Control.  This is fairly concisely described at the
 following web page:
 http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/framework/inversion-of-control.html ,
 including an example which maps this concept into exactly this domain. 

IOC is not really the stop gap - Log4j could easily layered over the top of 
LogKit with very few issues. 

 Can
 you conceive of any possibility where you and Peter could work together on
 a log4j v2.0 which conforms to what amounts to a set of restrictions on
 what a component can do?  Your answer above indicates that you have
 preconceived notions as to how you would limit Peter's freedom to
 participate.  Care to elaborate?

This is what I initially proposed to Ceki after it became obvious he was not 
willing to enable what we needed. This was a few months before he even came 
to Apache IIRC and I sent him at least 3 different proposals on how to 
integrate our work - though I believe he claims he only received 2. However 
at no stage did he even bother to acknowledge the proposals.

I would be very surprised if Ceki was willing to work with anyone else though 
I could be surprised .. I suspect the answer is no though ;)

 Peter, as you are well aware, I'm not overly thrilled with the way that
 Avalon has participated in commons either. 

I weren't aware we were participating ? ;)

 I have been unable to locate an
 adequate archive to point to, but recently I felt compelled recently
 (2001-12-26) to write the following words:

There are quite a few projects under the Apache umbrella that I see as
simultaneously unwilling to depend on others, and puzzled that more
people are not willing to depend on them.

And if you recall I agreed with you in a reply ... or at least I seem to 
recall doing so ;)

 To drive this point home, the subject line of this thread identifies
 exactly one such set of duplication - between Turbine and Struts.  My
 nagging lead Berin to propose moving the Avalon collections code into
 commons, to which you responded, and I quote, +/- 0.

I was hoping Jeff would do it as he seemed to be involved over there ;) I 
have no time atm and no real motiviation to do it. Last time I was on the 
list I watched 3 things be proposed to commons - nobody even voted !!! There 
was no response whatsoever. Apparently Jeff has similar comments when he 
offered some of the avalon bits over there.

I m not willing to do the work for some simple reasons 
* I don't like the management style (see below)
* I am lazy and don't like creating more work for myself (bet you knew that 
already though)
* I no longer care about duplication and wheel reinvention (it will happen 
anyway)

 You can say all you want that you predicted how commons would turn out -
 but lack of participation by people such as yourself have made such
 predictions self fulfilling prophesies.

Heres what sucks about commons;

1. People who are not associated with codebase nor ever contributed to it get 
voting rights over codebase (who needs meritocracy anyways)
2. Stable packages still have to go via sandbox and go through that whole 
painful voting process (yet more non-contributors getting votes over codebase)
3. Im not a committer

Change (1) and I will migrate the majority of excaalibur across in time (and 
bitch and moan till (2)/(3) is changed). Change (1), (2) and (3) and I will 
move stuff across tomorrow (though still take time to actually do releases).

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Pete

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Re: Not able to put classes in the class path

2002-01-08 Thread Peter Donald

maybe you would be better served asking on the Tomcat-user mailing list

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have installed , tomcat 4.0.1, and i have added an context in the
 webapps..

 but when i m trying to use the class files it is not picking up.., saying
 nopt found...

 i have put the class files in web-inf/classes


 pls help me... what to do...

 vikas


 
 mail2web - Check your email from the web at
 http://mail2web.com/ .

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-07 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 09:15, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 Of course it is easier to start from scratch to invent yet another
 validation framework. This is where I see another failure of Jakarta.
 People only go with the easiest route without any concern about the long
 term mess they are making.

Thats because thats what the PMC encourages (you included). If you recall at 
one stage LogKit was proposed as a jakarta project - before Log4j was present 
but the PMC decided to bring Log4j to jakarta instead. When commons was 
started it was because Avalon did not have the right advertising. Both of 
these things were a vote by the PMC to reinvent rather than reuse.

The best way to describe it was something I think Craig said, something like 
- it doesn't much matter if there is an existing project with same aims, what 
matters is what committers are willing to commit to.

It is much more sexier to rewrite something from scratch than it is to work 
with other peoples code. Why is struts a project? Wouldn't it have been more 
productive to the Apache community overall to live side-by-side with turbine 
(same mailing lists and project etc). Essentially struts would have been a 
complete revolution - having them together would have ensured a much higher 
level of cross pollination. Why is Log4j at jakarta? Wouldn't be better if it 
and LogKit were merged? What about the regex engines?

 I feel like Jakarta is just going down this path of having a bazillion
 different implementations and versions of the same thing and it is only
 getting worse.

It is going to get far far far worse - everyone encourages it from the PMC 
down. Reinvent rather than reuse or so the chant goes.

 Commons was supposed to help clean that up by providing a
 central location, however all I see is it making it worse because people
 are just re-inventing what already exists in other projects instead of
 using existing projects as the basis.

Correct. Commons is also fun because people not involved with the code have 
voting rights over it. However I do recall you +1'ed it even when I said it 
would end up like this ;)

 I'm starting to realize that Jakarta has grown to becoming a place where
 people only scratch their own itches and I agree that that is the basis for
 open source. However, we have no overall direction. We all have our own
 opinions and spend days and days discussing them and when it comes down to
 putting code into CVS, people do whatever they want anyway because there is
 no set of checks and balances to put some sort of higher level control over
 things.

Thats because people don't want it. More than half the people at jakarta are 
egomaniacs. Not that this is a bad thing - it can be very productive but very 
few people want to work together because they can get more glory doing it 
themselves.

 People keep saying that Jakarta isn't broken. Well, if it isn't broken,
 then how come we have so many people doing their own thing and not working
 together? Jakarta is supposed to be a group collective, however it is
 becoming nothing more than another Sourceforge.

If thats what you consider broken then it is broken and it is going to get 
much more broken. The only way to change this is to to vote it. Next time 
someone raises a vote to duplicate an existing project don't +1 it. And don't 
just complain when someone duplicates a part of turbine.

I would to love to see more working together but I can't see it happening. 
People are not willing to work together - even for basic things. When I asked 
you to change turbines build system to not conflict with patterns in other 
projects your response was something along the lines. We used ant first, this 
is how you should do it, you are wrong - and thats basically when I stopped 
trying to get people to have standard build file format.

You say you want to fix jakarta then prove it - lets start working together 
to get even the basic infrastructure common where they interface with other 
projects. So the ball is in your court now ;)

BTW turbine is/has uploaded components to commons that are duplicates of 
Avalon functionality. ie the exact same thing that happened with validators 
except that turbine is the purp rather than the victim - so should I wail 
at you now ? ;)

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Pete

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-07 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
 Peter,

 So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?

Would there be a point to that? 

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Pete

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

2002-01-07 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 22:02, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
 --- Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
   Peter,
  
   So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
 
  Would there be a point to that?

 It depends on whether and how you want to contribute.
 There still is a lot of work to do. Ceki

And theres the rub.

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Re: Cultural homogeneity

2002-01-06 Thread Peter Donald

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 16:10, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 I was leafing through my copy of A Pattern Language by Alexander,
 Ishikawa and Silverstein, which is really about architecture of human
 habitat (buildings and environs), and ran across some interesting
 assertions about society and groups.

good book.

 The summary for me is that I think that the Apache sub communities are
 valuable, and should be kept.

ok. 

I guess thats one reading of it but if anything the snippets you provided 
seem to me to encourage merging of XML and jakarta if anything ;)

Effectively XML/Jakarta would become a single city with a mosaic of 
subcultures. Already we have different sub-cultures which are effectively 
defined by the committers - when a committer is a member of multiple projects 
they tend to imbue the projects with their own culture.

However I guess you were trying to support the exact opposit view so I will 
shut up now ;)


-- 
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Pete

---
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win first, and then go to battle, while defeated 
warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win. 
  - Sun Tzu, the Art Of War
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Re: Cultural homogeneity

2002-01-06 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 00:22, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 On 1/6/02 8:06 AM, Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
  I thought I would share, as my thinking about removing community
  containers here in Jakarta, XML et al resonates well this.
 
  Personally, I just think its mainly a matter of packaging. By
  definination, we are all trying to share the same ASF culture, though
  each codebase will have its own flavor.

 If you really believe this, then the right thing is to get rid of *all*
 containers :

  Jakarta +  HTTPD + XML + TCL + PHP + APR + Perl

I have no idea about them but in the case of Jakarta-XML there is 
considerable cross-talk. All XML projects use some jakarta technologies and 
most (all?) jakarta projects use XML technologies.

I doubt that could be said about TCL and Perl or PHP and APR etc.

  Lumping everything together under one heading tends to confuse human
  beings. I think the projects, like XML and Jakarta, make for useful
  headings, mainly because that how people conceptualize entities like
  this.

 And there is no difference in culture?

No different than what we already have here. I have to think in very 
different ways when I contribute to ant as opposed to Avalon because they 
have a very different philosophy.

 I don't know the answer, but watching the discussion about XML lately, I
 would think that there *are* differences, so there must be *something* to
 it.

What was the specific point that made you think XML is somehow different from 
jakarta?

  (1) That we petition the ASF to change our charter and remove the word
  server, so what we are simply charged with providing production
  quality solutions on the Java platform.

+1

 I would like to see some opinions on the idea of working to form another
 apache subproject focused on the client side and if anyone thinks that
 makes sense.

Maybe we could just start having sub-catgories within Jakarta. So basically 
Jakarta is still the top level project but we have a software map underneath 
it that categorizes project (ie tools, xml parserns, servers, whatever).

  (2) That we ask XML if they would like to merge our general lists, so we
  can more easily discuss matters like this. I'm happy to have POI here,
  but would really like to know how XML feels about it.
 
  Alternatively, perhaps we might consider something like a public
  apache-projects list, where all the PMCs would meet and discuss issues
  like this, and conduct the formal votes, and let the general lists
  revert back to a chat room.

I can't see the PHP people being too interested in that :) The only people 
who may be interested being XML peeps ... which kinda supports the stance 
that they aren't all that different from jakarta

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

-
 We shall not cease from exploration, and the 
  end of all our exploring will be to arrive 
 where we started and know the place for the 
first time -- T.S. Eliot
-

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