Re: [VOTE] Commons moving to TLP

2007-05-23 Thread Sam Ruby

On 5/23/07, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


* Slide. There's some sign of activity here. Not enough yet.

* Cactus. Tiny bit of activity, again not enough for a TLP.

* JMeter. Lots of commits from Sebb, but not a big community.

For all three of these the best solution I can think of is to move
them to the Incubator. Keep the lists where they are, move the svn,
move the websites. They need to be thinking TLP, they need to get
community.


I'm against using the incubator as a rehabilitator.  Everything else
(including the significant snippage that I did) I agree with.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: [PROPOSAL] The future of Jakarta

2007-05-21 Thread Sam Ruby

On 5/21/07, Jörg Schaible [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


But to recap, we had

1/ Open-up Jakarta to all committers, was vetoed
2/ Merge commons into Jakarta, was vetoed
3/ Move commons into own TLP, was vetoed


Each of those proposals could be voted down, but are not subject to
veto.  In other words, a -1 expressed in such a vote is just a -1, not
a veto.


Any Jakarta project that feels uneasy because it
- has an isolated community
- has a broader scope than Java
should consider a TLP


+1

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Dual licensing of code

2005-07-26 Thread Sam Ruby

Simon Kitching wrote:

On Tue, 2005-07-26 at 13:33 +0200, Stefan Bodewig wrote:


On Mon, 25 Jul 2005, Simon Kitching [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I am now looking at writing an article about unit testing and would
like to be able to provide these classes as code in the public
domain, just to make it as easy as possible for readers of the
article to reuse that code.

Is there any issue with doing this? What is the exact procedure I
should follow?


IANAL and all that.

Since you've written the code, you retain the copyright and can
re-license it under whatever license you want to.  Just make sure it
is your original submission and nothing else.  If anybody else
contributed code, make sure you get them to agree with your wishes.


Thanks Stefan. As there has been no other feedback on this, I think I
will try asking on legal-discuss instead.


I agree with Stefan's analysis.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Updating the PMC bylaws

2004-08-06 Thread Sam Ruby
Vadim Gritsenko wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
...
However, the aim for this modification is to bring it in line with 
reality
and not future plans and we've never had a PMC member who was not a
committer. Every (loose) description I've seen of a PMC describes it as
the active committers to a project.
Yup.
So I'd like to stay with committers if possible.
The PMC will contain at least 3 committers from each subproject [1]
Even better: make it *active* committers. If person went inactive on 
the project, ideally he should be replaced with someone who is more 
active, in order to better represent project, and current status of the 
project.
What about jakarta-oro?
- Sam Ruby
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Re: Updating the PMC bylaws

2004-08-06 Thread Sam Ruby
Henri Yandell wrote:

What about jakarta-oro?
It does have 3 committers on the PMC. Whether they are active or not, I'm
unsure, might only be 2. It's planned to merge with Regexp and maybe into
Commons over time though, so there's definitely a tendency towards larger
oversight.
http://www.apache.org/~jim/projects.html#jakarta-oro
jakarta-oro has four committers defined.  Two are not current members of 
the Jakarta PMC:

  James Duncan Davidson
  Jon Stevens
One is a member of the Jakarta PMC, but is not active in the he has not 
committed to cvs or posted to the dev mailing list this year (in fact, 
he unsubscribed in March):

  Craig R. McClanahan
One is a member of the PMC and is active:
  Daniel F. Savarese
- Sam Ruby
P.S.  In no way should this be construed as a lack of confidence in dfs.
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Re: Updating the PMC bylaws

2004-08-06 Thread Sam Ruby
robert burrell donkin wrote:

What about jakarta-oro?
this illustrates well the point i was trying to make before.
ORO is actually better supervised than several other sub-project i could 
mention and yet because it doesn't have three active committers who are 
PMC members, the proposed bylaws say that it must lack sufficient 
oversight. if the pmc takes it's responsibilities seriously and adheres 
to the letter of the proposed bylaws, the only possible sanction would 
be to close the sub-project as soon as the number of active committers 
on the pmc falls below three (since the bylaws state that it is 
inadequately supervised).
Oro is a good example.  dfs reviews every change.  Heck, he makes every 
change.  And the other three committers?  They are all ASF members.

The one place that threeness is crucially important is on releases. 
It isn't so important that there are other PMC members overseeing the 
day to day operations, but it is vitally important that three people 
sign off on every release.

- Sam Ruby
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Re: Where is Cloudscape?

2004-08-04 Thread Sam Ruby
Kevin A. Burton wrote:
Hm... wanted to check this code out of CVS but can't find it :-/
Maybe I'm jumping the gun a bit... I can be patient ;)
http://infoworld.com/article/04/08/03/HNclouscape_1.html
Over the next few weeks, the open source code will be available for 
download from Apache.org. In the meantime, IBM will make available a 
binary copy of the Derby code from www.developerworks.com [1]

http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/db2/zones/cloudscape/
If this is a topic that interests you, you might want to subscribe to 
either [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Sam Ruby
[1]http://www-1.ibm.com/press/PressServletForm.wss?MenuChoice=pressreleasesTemplateName=ShowPressReleaseTemplateSelectString=t1.docunid=7254TableName=DataheadApplicationClassSESSIONKEY=anyWindowTitle=Press+ReleaseSTATUS=publish

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.

|  Don't feed  |
|  the trolls  |

   |
   |
   |
--\|/
I must admit that that was my first reaction too, but observing the net 
effect of this email, good discussions are happening on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
because of it.  Nothing in what I am about to say hasn't been said 
before, but hopefully pulling it all together will help people put the 
puzzle pieces together.

A few general comments:

* The assertion that decisions are being made on private lists is 
laughable.  The Jakarta bylaws are woefully out of date, as they were 
based on a different era where there was a ruling few who were 
responsible for wide oversight.  Mostly what has been discussed on the 
PMC mailing list is the process by which we decide the process to change 
the bylaws.  Exciting stuff, trust me.  And for those who are 
interested, decisions such as the one by log4j to become a project were 
made on the log4j mailing lists, as they should be.

*  The end goal is one where people feel empowered to make decisions. 
Not empowered in the '80s management buzzword sense, but empowered in 
terms of don't look to the pmc to make decisions for you.  Truth be 
told, the simplest way to achieve this is to place everybody who might 
potentially be affected by a decision on the PMC.  So, we are embarking 
on exactly that direction.  Incrementally.

*  This direction has implications.  If person x is on the Jakarta PMC, 
and codebase y is managed by Jakarta, then person x has a say over such 
matters as any releases of codebase y.  If this doesn't make sense, the 
solution is to put codebase y into a separate PMC.

*  There will always be discussions in private, particularly when they 
involve people issues.  A sister project recently had an issue dealing 
with a person voted down to become a commmitter, and this had a negative 
impact not only on that individual but on the community.  This project 
has since decided that all committer votes are to be done in private. 
While Jakarta hasn't yet had such an experience, it is worth noting that 
it is impossible to keep a secret when there are dozens of members on 
the PMC, but it is possible to keep such discussions out of Google 
searches and web archives.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: [POLL] Future Of Turbine-JCS

2003-11-30 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:

What do the turbine people want?
If we presume the existance of 'turbine people', then that would be a 
good indication that the right thing to do would be to leave JCS within 
turbine, and encourage turbine to be promoted to a top level project, 
taking JCS with it.

On Nov 30, 2003, at 6:08 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

On 30 Nov 2003, at 20:41, robert burrell donkin wrote:

sorry, missed one and probably

[ ] leave JCS within turbine
[ ] JCS to apache commons
[ ] JCS to jakarta commons
[ ] JCS to jakarta top level
[ ] JCS to incubator
[ ] something else (please specify)...
ps

before i get flamed (once again), i'd better add that i think that 
it'd be useful to try to get some consensus about where the right 
place for JCS is and that's why i started this thread. whatever action 
to be taken (if any) will have to be decided on the pmc list.

- robert

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Re: Is there a place for Eclipse plugins in Apache/Jakarta land?

2003-06-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Vincent Massol wrote:
Hi,

As part of Cactus, we have developed 2 Eclipse plugins. One of them is a
generic webapp plugin. We would like to extract this from the Cactus CVS
and let others benefit from it. 

However, I'm not sure where we should put this new project. 

Obviously one choice is to put it on SourceForge. Before doing this, I
wanted to let us decide first if we wanted to have a place in Apache
land where we would put such IDE plugins.
evil-grin
Have you considered java.net?
/evil-grin
As you are an established member of this community, if there is a set of 
others who are also interested in participating, I certainly don't see 
why this code couldn't remain here.  Creating a new cvs tree is easy to 
do, all it requires is PMC approval.

You might also want to consider contributing this to Eclipse.

I think more and more the focus in java land is on usability. Be it
Tomcat, Avalon, Maven, etc, they will all have user-oriented front ends
to increase user productivity. One obvious place is within their own
repository. The real question is about shared plugins, like the webapp
one, which would benefit Tomcat users as well as Cactus ones.
Any idea?

Note: There's no hurry. Just testing the water... :-)

Thank you
-Vincent
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Re: Sun copies Jakarta?

2003-06-10 Thread Sam Ruby
Santiago Gala wrote:
Steven Noels escribió:

On 10/06/2003 9:48 Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

or MS (http://www.gotdotnet.com/community/workspaces/directory.aspx)? 
Or Sourceforge? Savannah?

Diversity is what keeps Darwin's sledgehammer away, IMHO.
Darwin will take care of most such initiatives. But it looks like new 
marketing trends are being set up.

Now, how does this affect our ecosystem?
As little or as much as we want to let it.

Examples:

1) If an ASF Jakarta subproject were to come to depend on an java.net 
project, would I create a project definition for the java.net project in 
Gump?  Absolutely.

2) If the majority of committers to an ASF Jakarta subproject were to 
want to move their codebase to java.net, would I help them?  Absolutely.

Is the open source Java world big enough for both a Jakarta and a 
java.net?  Absolutely.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Jakarta-site access PMC membership for howard lewis ship

2003-05-30 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I'd like to propose that Howard Lewis Ship be given jakarta-site access and
Appears to already be done.

I hereby nominate him for the Jakarta PMC.
+1

=-Andy
- Sam Ruby



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Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5

2003-04-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Who is on the current scholarship board?  Any apache folks?  Are you 
able to comment?
Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board.

If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5

2003-04-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Yes, Apache is on the scholarship board.

If you want to discuss this further, you might consider joining the 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.
The problem is that I might inadvertantly receive information covered by 
apache's non-disclosure agreements with Sun.  This could limit my 
economic viability in the future should I wish to implement a technology 
which competes with Sun.  Would it be possible to have a list set up for 
those who are either not members or whom do not wish to be bound by such 
agreements to discuss the Apache side of the JCP?
We've been through this before.  The list is has no Sun employees on it. 
 It has only Apache members.  They make decisions on behalf of the ASF. 
 You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF.  You can choose 
not to participate.  At the moment, you have chosen the former and not 
the latter.

-Andy
- Sam Ruby

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Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5

2003-04-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
We've been through this before.  The list is has no Sun employees on 
it.  It has only Apache members.  They make decisions on behalf of the 
ASF.  You can choose to no longer be a member of the ASF.  You can 
choose not to participate.  At the moment, you have chosen the former 
and not the latter.
Sigh.

I have not signed any NDA.  I have only signed the ASF membership 
application.

We can take a list which gets virtually zero traffic and split it in 
two.  We did that once before, and created a list which allows Sun to 
participate.  It gets even less traffic.

How you can prove a negative (i.e., that you had access to such 
information but never actually took advantage of it), is beyond me.

What should we call this proposed list?

- Sam Ruby



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Re: Sun and the JCP 2.5

2003-04-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

What should we call this proposed list?
jcp-open?
Done.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: XDoclet2@Jakarta and LGPL libraries.

2003-04-01 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Can you get Mark Wutka to state that his LGPL explicitly permits linking 
and that section 6 of the LGPL does not apply to end users, etc etc?  Is 
he the copyright holder?

If so than you should be good to go (from my understanding).  (As the 
copyright holder he can explicitly address the issues that are of concern)
Andy, are you stating that in your legal opinion a verbal agreement 
superceedes a written license?

How are your dicussions with Richard Stallman going?

- Sam Ruby

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Re: redirect for /turbine/maven to maven.apache.org/

2003-03-26 Thread Sam Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Does anyone know how/where this redirect can be set up?

I'm assuming it's in the httpd.conf of the web server on daedalus.

Is this even remotely close?
Take a look at /www/jakarta.apache.org/.htaccess on daedalus.  Search 
for maven.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: PMC chair nominations?

2003-03-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Morgan Delagrange wrote:
Sam said that we should obtain nominations for chair
from people in the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by
the 16th, followed by [a]n election where every
member of the PMC has one vote...to be completed on
the 18th.
Whoops, we're late.

Are we obligated to choose a chair this month.  I
don't think we have enought time left for a proper
vote.
The board places no such obligations upon the Jakarta PMC.

My read is that if an election were held today, I would be running 
unopposed.  Instead of going through the motions and having a one party 
election, I would much rather go month to month... in other words, if 
any PMC member wants to call for an election at any time, it's OK with 
me.  Futhermore, should a suitable candidate emerge, they would have my 
vote and full support.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: PMC chair nominations?

2003-03-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Henri Yandell wrote:

My read is that if an election were held today, I would be running
unopposed.  Instead of going through the motions and having a one party
election, I would much rather go month to month... in other words, if
any PMC member wants to call for an election at any time, it's OK with
me.  Futhermore, should a suitable candidate emerge, they would have my
vote and full support.
Sounds like you want some peace and quiet Sam :)

It might help if you were to indicate what the role of Chairman entails.
In terms of time, resource etc. Being a member is, I assume, a given, but
are there timezone considerations, company-backing considerations which
help a lot.
Officially, I have been told that all that it entails is an email once a 
quarter with the status to the board.  This is a lie.

Being a PMC member is a prereq.  Being an ASF member is not.  Nor are 
there any timezone or company backing considerations.

Workload is entirely unpredictable.  The biggest time consumer is 
resolving interpersonal disputes.  Being a parent helps - most disputes 
are of the her leg is on my half of the car seat type.  Or, more 
commonly, he's copying me.

Do you find yourself listening to every mailing list, how much of your
Apache time is eaten by Chairman-ness rather than project-work.
I skim.  I may go for a week or more without reading some lists. 
Generally the important issues seek me out.  ;-)

What's important about the job is the buck stops here.  Non-PMC members 
certainly have expectations of the PMC.  If no particular PMC member 
steps forward, the chair is expected to ensure that issues are dealt 
with.  The board is *extremely* adverse to having things delegated upward.

So, anybody who is considering the job, an important character trait is 
the ablity to be dispassionate in disputes (i.e., hotheads need not 
apply).  And to be able to be virtually on call at any point in time.

In case it appears that I am portraying any of this in a too negative 
light... the plus side is that you will have a wonderful set of people 
supporting you.  Both within the PMC itself and on the board.

Then maybe it'll indicate to people whether they have an interest, and how
long they'd desire to serve etc.
Hen
- Sam Ruby

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Re: PMC changes?

2003-03-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Henri Yandell wrote:
I've updated the site from the file. Btw, Thomas Mahler's name is not in
alphabetical order in the file.
You updated the site but you didn't update the file?  Are you waiting 
for permission or something?  ;-)

Hen
- Sam Ruby

P.S.  Thanks!

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Re: JCP NDA (was: too many similar projects?)

2003-03-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Rich Persaud wrote:

Ok, there's no separate NDA, it's part of the standard agreements:

  http://jcp.org/en/participation/membership

Follow-up questions:
1.  Is there an Apache-specific, public archive of JCP discussion, 
including the negotiation of JCP 2.5?  This seems to exclude 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] .  Is there a [EMAIL PROTECTED] ?  If not, one 
could be culled from the archives of other lists.

No.  Should there be?  Subscribing to [EMAIL PROTECTED] is only open to 
members and binds you to Apache's agreements with Sun including NDAs.
Right on the first half.  Wrong on the second.

When the ASF as a whole decides to participate in agreements, it does so 
as a whole (i.e., ASF==members).  Subscribing to the mailing list does 
not make you any more or less bound, it simply allows you to provide 
some input into the process.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

2003-03-03 Thread Sam Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 04/03/2003 01:51:36 AM:

I nominate Sam Ruby whom I sometimes, often would be too strong of a 
word, disagree with but always respect his integrity and belief in 
community-based software development.  I too would like to see some 
changes, but Sam has outlined, several times, most of the changes that 
I'd actually like to see.  The remainder of which, I'm not certain that 
the Jakarta community of the whole has control over.

One change I do not wish to see are projects which specifically exclude 
Apache/Jakarta members due to the cult of personality of one of its 
participants, even its prinicipal participant.  Personally, I mark my 
graduation from pre-pubescence not on any biological definition rather 
the day that I learned to work in close quarters with those whom my 
personality or personal philosophy disagreed with or to extract myself 
from the situation rather than the other way around. 
Could you please elaborate on how these projects have achieved these aims 
under the current PMC?

I'm very interested in where Apache/Jakarta members have been/are 
currently excluded, and how the new PMC will stop this from happening.
Given the context, I can only presume that Andy was referring to emails 
such as this one [1].  If I am incorrect, I expect Andy will correct me.

How will the new PMC stop this from happening?  I have not specified a 
timetable for this change to occur (I am being very careful and 
deliberate in the evolotion of the current structure of Jakarta to 
conform to the wishes of the ASF board), but the direction Jakarta is 
heading is to make the release votes of any software from Jakarta to be 
the purvue of the PMC.  In other words, only PMC members can issue 
binding votes on such matters.  Note that such votes are by design 
majority votes, so are not subject to veto.

Before this change occurs, I have been supporting the efforts of various 
subprojects to become independent projects, and to significantly expand 
the membership of the Jakarta PMC.

Furthermore, I expect that the resolution to establish the Maven PMC 
will be satisfactorily resolved long before the change I describe above 
is put into place.

Note: even if there is a chairman change for Jakarta, the chairman would 
still need to address the same concerns of the ASF board in this matter.

--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Blog:  http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
[1] http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=104448400328715w=2

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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

2003-03-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Pete Kazmier wrote:
I believe you have omitted an individual from this list.  Jason Van
Zyl was included among the nominated that passed the nomination vote:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]msgNo=14489
OUCH!

I stand corrected.  Thanks Pete.

When updating the official list (in the committers repository, directory 
 board/committee-info.txt), it occurred to me that a three column 
format might be easier to read, so I wrote a little script. 
Unfortunately, a roundoff error made *two* people not appear on the list 
as 35 is not evenly divisible by three).

Sorry Rob Oxspring and Jason van Zyl.

Both names are present in the official list.

Danny AngusDiane HoltMartin Poeschl
Nicola Ken Barozzi Larry Isaacs  Dmitri Plotnikov
Stefan Bodewig John KeyesSam Ruby
Peter Carlson  Thomas Mahler Scott Sanders
Martin Cooper  Conor MacNeillDavid Sean Taylor
Morgan Delagrange  Geir Magnusson Jr.Glen Stampoultzis
Robert Burrel Donkin   Remy MaucheratJames Strachan
Ted Husted Craig McClanahan  Mladen Turk
Ceki Gülcü Costin Manolache  James Turner
Henri GomezGlenn Nielsen Rod Waldhoff
Otis Gospodnetic   Andrew C Oliver   Henri Yandell
++ Rob Oxspring  Jason van Zyl

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

2003-03-02 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:

Sorry Rob Oxspring and Jason van Zyl.
Also, how is the chair position being selected now? By peer PMC members
or by the entire body of Jakarta committers?
Technically, the chair position is chosen by the board.  In practice, 
the board gives great value to the desires of the project. 
Historically, votes on the chair has been done by votes of the PMC members.

I ask because I have an essay to present and I would like to run for the
chair position as I feel it's time for some changes around here.
Excellent.

The next board meeting is the 19th.  My suggestion is that current PMC 
members nominate individuals that they believe should be on the PMC by 
the 9th, then we hold a vote on these nominees to be complete on the 12th.

This is to be followed this up with nominations for chair from people in 
the (potentially expanded) PMC ranks by the 16th.   An election where 
every member of the PMC has one vote, will then commence, to be 
completed on the 18th.

If there are concerns about not wishing one's votes to be known, I can 
ask the board for an independent set of participants to tally the votes.

In any case, I can inform the board of the results (potentially jointly 
with my intended successor) on the 19th.

How does this sound?

- Sam Ruby

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Current roster of the Jakarta PMC

2003-02-28 Thread Sam Ruby
Danny AngusDiane HoltMartin Poeschl
Nicola Ken Barozzi Larry Isaacs  Dmitri Plotnikov
Stefan Bodewig John KeyesSam Ruby
Peter Carlson  Thomas Mahler Scott Sanders
Martin Cooper  Conor MacNeillDavid Sean Taylor
Morgan Delagrange  Geir Magnusson Jr.Glen Stampoultzis
Robert Burrel Donkin   Remy MaucheratJames Strachan
Ted Husted Craig McClanahan  Mladen Turk
Ceki Gülcü Costin Manolache  James Turner
Henri GomezGlenn Nielsen Rod Waldhoff
Otis Gospodnetic   Andrew C Oliver   Henri Yandell
- Sam Ruby

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Re: Karma request jakarta-site2

2003-02-27 Thread Sam Ruby
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
Howard, the procedures to update the Jakarta web site are documented at:

  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/site2.html

which is (recursively :-) generated from file
xdocs/site/jakarta-site2.xml in the jakarta-site2 repository.  You
won't be able to do the Modifications of the Website step, which
actually updates the web server's HTML pages, without a login account on
daedalus -- contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] for that -- but any changes you make
and check in to jakarta-site2 will be reflected when the next person who
can performs that last step.
...which I do automatically every 6 hours via a cron job (starting at 
midnight PST).

- Sam Ruby

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Re: [RESULT][PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-02-21 Thread Sam Ruby
Henri Gomez wrote:


What do you means by passed the PMC nomination ?
I'm confused with the original mail where many commiters were
elected as Jakarta PMC members ?


The ASF chairmain maintains a list of members of each of the PMCs in 
cvs.  If you are an ASF committer, check out cvs module commiters, 
look in a directory named board, and you will find a file named 
commitee-info.  Henri: your name appears in the Jakarta PMC list.  If 
you would like it to be removed, let me know.

I have not sumbitted the latest round on the off chance that there are 
any remaining challenges to be made.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [RESULT][PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-02-21 Thread Sam Ruby
Pier Fumagalli wrote:


I am more than you are, as my name pops on and off the proposed PMC members
as yours does depending on the mood of the day...


Pier, let me make this quite clear: I want you to be a member of the 
Jakarta PMC.  Any time anybody submits your name, I will vote +1.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC Nomination

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Jeffrey Dever wrote:


I am not excited by the idea of only PMC members voting on releases to 
the exclusion of active committers.  I'm the release prime for Commons 
HttpClient where all committers vote on all issues all the time, 
including releases.  HttpClient is somewhat unusual in commons as it is 
rather a large project with a dedicated mailing list and a rich family 
where many, such as myself, are primarily focused on just one project, 
HttpClient.

The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


I am quite happy with how things are going right now.  Our contributor 
base continues to grow and we are back to doing releases (hurray).  We 
are using maven to build, have factored out some services into the Codec 
subproject and are looking to factor out URI into a new subproject.  We 
have over 250 Junit tests, are using commons-logging and have reached 
critical mass to support our own votes according to Jakarta guidelines. 
Some complain at our isolation, but I see this as desirable given the 
size of the codebase and the volume of email traffic (approx 400/month). 
Of course we have an open door policy and have good connections to those 
projects that are connected to HttpClient, such as Slide, Cactus and 
othes both inside and ourside of Apache.

This works well when things go well.  When things go wrong, who is 
accountable?

To quote the quote of Sam, Jakarta ... becoming a single community.  I 
like the sound of this, but please consider that communities are 
composed of families that a) are all members of the community, b) 
interact more frequently with their own family members than others in 
the community, c) may or may not share culture and d) a single family 
has differing relationships between families.

Different families should become different projects.  Ant, Avalon, 
Cocoon, James, WebServices, DB, ... are all examples of this happening.

HttpClient has all the characteristics of a family in a community.  I 
don't want to see this relationship disrupted by taking voting power 
away from the family representitives, the committers.

Semantics.  The PMC for a project is the ones that make release 
decisions.  Either make HttpClient a project, or have the active 
committers for the project join the PMC.

I have not shown interest in the PMC up untill now, but it sounds like 
my family is at risk, and I'm concerned.  In general, I just want to 
write code and progress HttpClient (of which I don't really have time 
for even this, but I like it so much I make time).  I don't appear to 
have been nominated (or have just shown up on the list like Stephen) but 
I am eligible (committer, release prime and active for 10 months).

Should I be seeking a seat on the PMC?

Yes.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: PMC Nomination

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
robert burrell donkin wrote:


actively inviting new PMC members to join is something that i think 
should be done.

in the same way that a developer receives a letter from apache (after a 
successful vote) inviting them to become a committer, i'd say that 
committers who have been voted onto the PMC should receive a letter 
explaining the role of a PMC member and asking them if they'd be willing 
to join.

What are you waiting for?

Make it so.

;-)

- Sam Ruby



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Re: PMC Nomination

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Shouldn't it be that a committer has been around for a reasonable amount 
of time?  How else would they be a committer?

From the perspective of other ASF projects (e.g., HTTPD), Jakarta gives 
out committer-ship like candy.  With HTTPD, a track record of 
approximately six months of sustained patches is required to become a 
committer.

By contrast HTTPD, by Jakarta standards, gives out PMC membership and 
ASF membership like candy.

I want to strike a happy balance.  I don't necessarily want to slow down 
the rate at which people become committers.  But I would like to see 
significantly more Jakarta committers become PMC and ASF members.

- Sam Ruby





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Re: PMC Nomination

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Pier Fumagalli wrote:

On 19/2/03 17:18 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


The goal is to make all active committers PMC members.


I think this is utterly wrong for an umbrella project like Jakarta. 

Interesting.  100% of the ASF board members that I have talked to have 
given me exactly the opposite advice.

I am executing on their recommendations.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Henri Yandell wrote:


Just a view against the 'jump right in and nominate a person at a time'
idea.


+1

FYI: My preference is for monthly batches.  My aim was to complete each 
batch in time for the board meeting, but this one went astray...

Suggestion: let's call this round complete at this time, and start a new 
round next month.  I'll notify the board later tonight that everyone in 
the following list (minus Pier) is to be added to the Jakarta PMC:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=104518242028805w=2

At the same time, I will also request that Stephen Colebourne be 
dismissed without prejudice [1] from the roster of the Jakarta PMC.

Next month, lets start with the nominations that didn't quite make this 
round, and add to the list.

- Sam Ruby

[1] http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d062.htm


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Re: PMC Nomination

2003-02-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote:


By the way, when are the next membership nominations?


Martin Poeschl wrote:

 how does someone become an ASF member?
 i know, by nomination from another member .. but when does that ever
 happen??

This is scheduled to coincide with members meetings which, in turn, are 
scheduled to coincide with ApacheCons.  That's why it is very important 
for members who can't make it to ApacheCons to fill out proxy statements.

I believe I was the one who nominated the most new members at the last 
meeting.  Hopefully, more people will do the same at the next one.

- Sam Ruby





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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-02-15 Thread Sam Ruby
Martin van den Bemt wrote:

This is the vote in which you got nominated :)

Mvgr,
Martin


However, these were names that did not attract sufficient number of +1's 
the first go around.  At the moment - unless I missed an email - the 
only PMC members that have expressed a vote on these names are Robert and I.

+1


(i can't see the original VOTE but i don't suppose that matters)


http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=104317563423493w=2


+1

- robert


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-02-13 Thread Sam Ruby
Charles Burdick wrote:


Selection criteria aside, I nominate Morgan for the PMC.

Now that I think of it, let me just skim through the
Jakarta-Announcements archive from various points last year.

 - Danny Angus
 - Peter Carlson
 - Morgan Delagrange
 - Pier Fumagalli
 - Ceki Gülcü
 - Dmitri Plotnikov
 - Phillip Rhodes

To add to the list, I'd like to nominate these active committers:

 - James Strachan
 - Jason van Zyl
 - Ted Husted
 - Rod Waldhoff


+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Licensing again.

2003-02-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote:


I echo Andrew's reservations. The reasons behind the restriction of
LGPLed imports are unclear and apparently undocumented. Such a crucial
matter deserves to be properly documented. If the restriction cannot
be justified, then it should be lifted.


You have that backwards.

LGPL has special rules for 'link'.  What exactly is the concept of a 
'link' in Java?  If A imports B and A and B are not in the same Java 
package (but perhaps share some similar names in the first three 
qualifiers) are they in the same 'library' or not?

Java has been around for some time, and you would think that this would 
some clarification of how these concepts map to Java would have been 
provided.  Can we read something into the fact that it has not?  More 
importantly would you be willing to risk the value of your reputation 
and some important software assets on the chance that a jury of 12 
people would agree with what we decided to assign to the meaning of 
terms used in the LGPL license?

It is not up to the ASF to define what the FSF means when they say 
'link' and 'library' in the context on Java.

I urge all Apache members and committers to carefully follow licensing
related discussions. The matter is too important to be blindly
deferred to the wisdom of the board. Think a little on yourself. Read
the BSD license. Understand its sprit. Read the Apache license. See
how much or how little it differs.


I would encourage general discussion of this on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
This topic has a much wider applicability than Jakarta.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Licensing again.

2003-02-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote:

At 07:21 12.02.2003 -0500, Sam Ruby wrote:


LGPL has special rules for 'link'.  What exactly is the concept of a 
'link' in Java?  If A imports B and A and B are not in the same Java 
package (but perhaps share some similar names in the first three 
qualifiers) are they in the same 'library' or not?

Indeed, reading the LGPL does not give a clear answer. Thank you for 
pointing out the heart of the issue.

Java has been around for some time, and you would think that this 
would some clarification of how these concepts map to Java would have 
been provided.  Can we read something into the fact that it has not?

If you chose to. However, if would be better not to read anything into 
that fact.

See below.


More importantly would you be willing to risk the value of your 
reputation and some important software assets on the chance that a 
jury of 12 people would agree with what we decided to assign to the 
meaning of terms used in the LGPL license?

It depends on the formulation of the license. In the case of LGPL, I 
would certainly not want to take that risk.

It is not up to the ASF to define what the FSF means when they say 
'link' and 'library' in the context on Java.

No, it is not up to the ASF. However, has the ASF attempted to clarify 
the matter with the FSF? Why not ask the FSF if importing java classes 
is considered as derivative work or simply as work that uses the 
library?

I am aware of a number of people, including FSF board members, who have 
tried to work with the FSF on this and a number of broader issues, and 
furthermore that their work is continuing.

However much I would wish otherwise, I must confess that I am not 
hopeful that this will be resolved soon.

People are free to license their works under any number of licenses. 
There are open source licenses which define derivative works more 
clearly.  An example:

http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/MPL-1.1.html

The ASF is comfortable with dependencies on code under the MPL license.

In the absence of a clear response from the FSF, there is no doubt that 
it is safer to shy away from LGPLed code.

I urge all Apache members and committers to carefully follow licensing
related discussions. The matter is too important to be blindly
deferred to the wisdom of the board. Think a little on yourself. Read
the BSD license. Understand its sprit. Read the Apache license. See
how much or how little it differs.


I would encourage general discussion of this on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
This topic has a much wider applicability than Jakarta.

Sure.


- Sam Ruby



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Ceki

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Re: Licensing again.

2003-02-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:



No, it is not up to the ASF. However, has the ASF attempted to clarify 
the matter with the FSF? Why not ask the FSF if importing java classes 
is considered as derivative work or simply as work that uses the 
library?

In the absence of a clear response from the FSF, there is no doubt 
that it is safer to shy away from LGPLed code.

I'm drafting a letter from myself to Richard Stallman.  I had thought 
I'd already sent it but I sent it to myself which is usually what I do 
when I think something needs more editing.

A better approach would be to send the e-mail to 
http://emoglen.law.columbia.edu/

-Andy


- Sam Ruby



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Re: Action items now or after board meeting?

2003-02-10 Thread Sam Ruby
Danny Angus wrote:

 With respect to dnsjava and mm.mysql, my understanding is that we
 had indeed received such alternate licensing.  Perhaps this needs
 to be made more clear somewhere.

 If they issued a separate license for everyone to use, then I see
 no record of this on their website.  If they issues a separate
 license for the ASF, then I would expect the board to have a copy
 of this and I would be very concerned about what limitations it
 might place on users of ASF software.

 I can't speak for dnsjava but the mm.mysql position is this..

 the old mm.mysql driver is released under LGPL, when we removed this
 driver last time this issue came up Mark Matthews, then
 copyrightholder and licensor, contacted me and told me that as far as
  he was concerned our use of this library was consistent with LGPL
 (there is no compile time dependance on the copyright material, only
 on the JDBC contract) and was in fact the kind of use he'd intended
 to allow by choosing  LGPL over GPL.

It is not clear that the license he chose was consistent with his 
intentions.

 The driver has been moved to MySQL and has become the MySQL
 connector-J, who's licence as distributed publicly is GPL and so we
 can't upgrade. Period.

 MySQL have indicated to me that they do intend to provide (or
 consider providing) specific less restrictive licences to certain
 groups, and that jakarta would likely be one, but I haven't heard any
  more, and until then the last release of the mm.mysql under LGPL is
 the only one we can use. If MySQL did contact me regarding a specific
  Apache licence I would, of course, pass this on as even a specific
 licence for Apache may not accord with either the ASFL or
 distribution of the driver by our mirrors. FWIW I believe that I
 summarised this on general@jakarta at the time, but perhaps not.

The net affect of such a license would be that people who receive the 
software from us would have significantly less restrictions placed on 
what they could do with it than if they received these same bytes from 
the original source.

 If it would help I can fw my correspondance with Mark to the board
 for the record.

 d.


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Re: Licensing again.

2003-02-10 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:



I've never heard this other interperatation outside of the ASF.  I'll 
put more research into the issue and get back to you.

I know that all of the developers that use LGPL that I know of think 
that the jar binaries can be used with no problem at all in any type 
of code, including ASF.

If it's not the case, we should IMHO help them be aware that it's not 
the case.

Or at the very least until the ASF changes its unique interperetation, 
just ask the authors for a disclaimer *like* (but not exactly like) on 
the CLASSPATH project (which is GPL).  Honestly I'm not exactly sure 
under the ASF interperatation what the difference between GPL or LGPL 
is.  (This is why I find this interperation so doubtful)  While some 
authors will probably be like What's the point, thats why its LGPL? 
some will probably cooperate.

There is a clear difference between LGPL and GPL for languages which 
have a clearly defined concept of link.  Languages such as C.


Classpath is licensed under the terms of the GNU General Public License 
with the following special exception.

As a special exception, the copyright holders of this library give you 
permission to link this library with independent modules to produce an 
executable, regardless of the license terms of these independent 
modules, and to copy and distribute the resulting executable under terms 
of your choice, provided that you also meet, for each linked independent 
module, the terms and conditions of the license of that module. An 
independent module is a module which is not derived from or based on 
this library. If you modify this library, you may extend this exception 
to your version of the library, but you are not obligated to do so. If 
you do not wish to do so, delete this exception statement from your 
version.


Define link.

If you were subscribed to [EMAIL PROTECTED], you would have already 
seen the following:

http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?[EMAIL PROTECTED]msgId=641442
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ReadMsg?[EMAIL PROTECTED]msgId=641503

-Andy


- Sam Ruby


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Re: Licensing questions

2003-02-09 Thread Sam Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For each ASF jar file distributed, we need to distribute the 
license/copyright and conditions from the source of that jar.

e.g. for ant, we need ants LICENSE, for jelly Jelly's license.

Until ASL v2, when all the licenses become the same text, I understand 
that we need a license for each binary distribution of ASF code. Is this 
correct?

Let me generalize this a bit and then state a personal recommendation - 
i.e., not an official statement of ASF policy, but how I would apply 
common sense in this situation.

Independent of whether an artifact is source or binary, independent of 
whether such an artifact is ASF Licensed or not, we need to make it 
relatively easily apparent as to what license applies to everything.

This includes public domain, Mozilla Public License, Sun Public License 
jars, ... everything.

When things are organized like the maven repository on ibiblio is, I 
would recommend one license per directory.  Ant, for example, has 
multiple jars but it would be clear enough to me that each were covered 
under the ASF license.

Even before ASF Sofware License v2, in my mind it would simplify things 
if we were to consolidate and standardize our licenses.  However, for 
various reasons (impending v2, more serious license issues, desire to do 
some thing other than purely licensing related on occasion grin), this 
is not my personal top priority at this time.

-Sam Ruby


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Re: Licensing again.

2003-02-09 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

I'd like to state my preference that this ASF policy be changed in the 
near future.

[snip]


... introducting LGPL 
dependencies does not prevent this, it only prevents them from forking 
that dependency.

That is not my understanding.  Is this simply your opinion, or can you 
substantiate this?  I know people, including people on the ASF board, 
legal council, and others who I respect that have come to a different 
conclusion.

ASF members that wish to be more directly involved in this issue can 
subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Before anyone asks, yes, this is a 
subscriber moderated list.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Action items now or after board meeting?

2003-02-08 Thread Sam Ruby
Noel J. Bergman wrote:

Sam,

We've been discussing the jar licensing, and want to check: do we have an
action item TODAY, or do we wait for the board meeting to provide formal
guidance?


If I am correct in presuming that you are looking over James's assets, 
then you have no action item from me at this point.  I'm asking every 
Jakarta PMC member to do a review of the assets that they are involved 
with for license compliance.

I would like to be able to report that this is complete at the next 
board meeting.

At the moment, I am told that we have permissions for dnsjava and mm.mysql
from their authors, as well as geo-ip from that author.  The other jars are
JavaMail and JAF.


Both Dnsjava and mm.mysql are licensed under GPL or LGPL.  I would 
strongly recommend that you get the author to provide an alternate 
license.  The author might be delighted to have us redistribute his 
code, but people who use ASF software might not be so appreciative of this.

As to JavaMail and JAF, the license is clear: you can distribute only 
bundled as part of, and for the sole purpose of running, your Programs.

Dion Gillard also believes that a copy of the ASF License file needs to be
in every directory of the CVS within which is located a jar, unless the jar
has the ASL embedded in it.


I agree.  I note that cocoon has chosen to put the licenses in a 
separate directory.  That works too.  The layout is not the important 
thing, but complying with the terms of the license is.

Please advise.  Thanks.  :-)

	--- Noel

P.S.  Since I know that this subject is bound to annoy people, I want to get
Dion out of the firing line; people should know that he and the rest of the
Maven team were asked to do the audits.


The Maven team was asked to audit themselves and the resources they 
provide to others.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Action items now or after board meeting?

2003-02-08 Thread Sam Ruby
Noel J. Bergman wrote:


We do have the ASL license in our CVS.  What we don't have is a copy of it
in the particular directories that contain the builds of Avalon jars that
we're using.  What is the specific requirement?  And is it really true that
if the license is embedded in the jar file, that suffices?  There is no
requirement for it to be visible without someone having to look in the jar?


The Apache Software License paragraph 2 simply states a list of things 
that must be present in the distribution.  If you believe that people 
would reasonably expect to find the license in the jar file, then I 
would say this complies.  It might be prudent to mention this on the 
James website and/or in some README, as inside the jar is not 
necessarily the first place I would have thought to look.

With respect to dnsjava and mm.mysql, my understanding is that we had indeed
received such alternate licensing.  Perhaps this needs to be made more clear
somewhere.


If they issued a separate license for everyone to use, then I see no 
record of this on their website.  If they issues a separate license for 
the ASF, then I would expect the board to have a copy of this and I 
would be very concerned about what limitations it might place on users 
of ASF software.

-Sam Ruby


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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:



2.  Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?

Yes.  But, they cannot distribute them.


ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as 
there is no runtime dependency in the code produced.  Programs like 
checkstyle are OK.  Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not. 
This last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure. 
Moving graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it 
OK for Maven to use graph.

I would like some rationale on this.  For one, I'm not buying the 
import idea.  Why?  Well I just built HTTPD against the glibc which is 
also LGPL.  The #ifdef #includes make specific allowances for Linux and 
hence I don't buy that these are common names for C libaries.

It is a fair question to ask of the httpd project.  While it is doubly 
outside my area of expertise (IANAL and not on the HTTPD project), I am 
hightly confident that they are in the clear.  The reason I say this is 
that I am aware of analogous projects within IBM and know that IBM has a 
large legal staff who are heavily involved in any such decisions.  This 
being said, every situation is different, and the HTTPD project needs to 
be confident that they are doing the right thing.

While IANAL, the LGPL, as it was explained to me, does not apply unless 
you directly modify the source of the LGPL library.  Meaning if I 
imported checkstyle, I'd be fine (thats just linking and explicitly 
allowed), if I go and change even one class, that is not allowed.

What I'd like clarification on is:

1. Is this the result of legal advice?
2. Is this simply a policy decision?
3. Why is it not evenly applied across all Apache projects?
   (most specifically HTTPD)

I believe that the answer is: yes, yes, and it is.

Re #1: I personally have talked to an IBM lawyer on very closely related 
topics.  Again, I must stress that every situation is different, so this 
does need to be independently verified.  In this case, Roy has indicated 
that he personally has talked to one or more lawyers (possibly even the 
same ones), but in this case on this very topic so I am completely 
satisified that this is so.

Re: #2: Let me explain the rationalle behind the policy.  While I am 
uncomfortable doing so, let me use IBM as an example.  IBM not only 
contributes developer time and effort to a number of Apache projects, it 
also harvests the results.  It uses a number of projects internally, and 
it even ships a number of them in commercial and for profit products. 
This is something that is not only permitted by the Apache license, but 
is encouraged.

Each time such code is picked up to be shipped (and I do truly mean each 
time, i.e., every minor revision), a legal assessment is made. 
Questions are asked as to whether the assertion of copyright is 
credible.  Whether the IBM corporation is comfortable with the license 
terms of each dependency involved (recursively).  Etc.

It is worth noting that in the legal profession there are rarely any 
simple black and white answers.  Terms like reasonable doubt and due 
dilligence are involved.  In such an environment, the reputation of the 
copyright holder, particularly with respect to the aspects to which that 
body polices its own work, counts heavily in such a decision.

Hopefully, this provides some insight as to why this issue is so 
important to me, both as an ASF director and as representive of a 
company that wishes to participate in Apache.

-Andy


- Sam Ruby


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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:



and can't or won't comply with Apache 
policies, 

I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
faster then any of us can.


I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition 
- every other admin is removed.  In short, I am willing to take on 
responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the 
sources of this contamination are eliminated first.

As you are undoubtably aware, dIon recently noted that an instance of 
gump was placing jars on a non-ASF resource in a manner which was not 
compliant with the license for that software.  I can only presume that 
given the circumstances there was a slight bit of glee in that discovery 
by dIon, and I wouldn't begrude him for that.

What's important is that I immediately took responsibility for this, 
instituted a policy that only jars that are explicitly marked are to be 
published (i.e., step one is empty the pool), and marked an initial 
subset as clearly OK.  This is coupled with the knowledge that any 
changes to these descriptors involve an e-mail to a mailing list where 
every change is very actively reviewed.

I see that jsse has been removed from ibiblio.  Good.  It is 
unfathonable to me that somebody could not only have missed the license, 
but also missed the registration process which involved verfication of 
your physical location and login and not known that it was improper to 
place such a jar on a public location for everyone to download.  I can 
only presume that such an individual did this on other occasions, and 
that there is no effective oversight of this repository.

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  There is a bit of hyperbole in the statement I made above about 
removing every other admin.  Clearly dIon through his deeds and actions 
has demonstrated responsibility in this matter.


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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:

On Fri, 2003-02-07 at 10:18, Sam Ruby wrote:


Jason van Zyl wrote:


and can't or won't comply with Apache 
policies, 

I started removing the Sun violations and I just sent you another
message asking you to take on a maven repository admin role. Feel free
to find the violations and remove them with a notification on the
maven-user list. You are more license aware and can remove any problems
faster then any of us can.


I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition 
- every other admin is removed.  In short, I am willing to take on 
responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the 
sources of this contamination are eliminated first.

Then Dion will just keep working with you. I'm not removing the other
Maven admins. I think they're pretty aware of the licensing issues now
and I take responsibility for the majority of the violations. I'll also
add something to the admin app to help as well.


OK, I accept this.  I will send a note to ibiblio and request to be a 
maven admin.  I will caution you that I am probably not able to get 
started on this until this weekend at the earliest.

- Sam Ruby





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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:

Sam Ruby wrote:


I am willing to take on the maven repository admin role on one condition 
- every other admin is removed.  In short, I am willing to take on 
responsibility for removing piss from the pool if and only if the 
sources of this contamination are eliminated first.

i realise you mentioned later that this was hyperbole, but i still
think this remark is a bit over the top, sam.


Criticism accepted.

Jason and other admins associated with the Maven repository, please 
accept my sincere apology.  I previously indicated that I accept Jason's 
statement that in his opinion the admins have gotten a fresh 
appreciation for the value of not violating others licenses, and I now 
wish to reaffirm this statement.  Meanwhile, I intend to do my part to 
clean up whatever mess remains.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:



i'd like to make sure that the term 'philosophical
visions' isn't being mistakenly applied to things motivated by
legally-required oversight.  

What I'm referring to by philosophical vision is Sam's notion of opening
up everything to everybody and trying to create one big community. I'm
not interested in that and don't want to be forced into that practice.
In Maven for example there is no way on earth I would be comfortable
opening up the committer pool to anyone. Sam feels differently and is
willing to open up the committer pool on Gump to anyone. If he wants to
do that great but I don't and neither do any of the other Maven
committers. The same goes with the jakarta commons. I don't think it is
that much of a burden to request access to a project from the people who
have made it come into being. I don't know how the apache commons
project works but I'm just not into the free-for-all.


Permit me to clarify what my philosophical vision is?

The board has been uncomfortable for quite a while with the notion of 
subcommunities, particularly with respect to oversight.  I have recently 
come to the point where I fully appreciate the reasons behind this.

So what I have been trying to do is move to a model where one project 
equals one community.  Within Jakarta, this has two ramifications: 
shedding self managing projects and deputizing more PMC members.  The 
latter has some interesting implications as it implies that subprojects 
that choose to remain are required to accept the input of those PMC 
members.  If that results in the shedding of more projects, then 
everything is working correctly according to my devious master plan.

This master plan has not be a secret.  And for recalcitrant subprojects, 
I have been known to give a little nudge.  At no time have I stood in 
the way of subprojects splitting out, in fact I have gone so far as to 
actively support each proposal.

I see this as quite different than having a philosophical vision of 
opening up everything to everyone.  Ant and Avalon and James are now 
fully autonomous, as are Cocoon and Web Services.

As to Gump, the CVS repository is only open to Apache committers.  So 
while Gump builds a lot of Apache related but not Apache hosted 
projects, the people who are not Apache committers have to submit 
patches or rely on the good will of others.  I will say that opening it 
up to all ASF committers has resulting in a significant increase in 
participation and usefulness of the results, with no apparent downside 
seen to date.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-06 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:



BTW, for the record, was the creation of the jakarta-turbine-maven 
resources (CVS and lists) approved by this PMC? 

Yes, they were. The creation of the lists didn't get by Sam. It was
Costin who argued that each project should be allowed to do what it
likes.


Ack.  For all I remember, I may have even helped setting them up.  I 
don't want to specifically address point by point the parts of this 
email I have snipped, but I have no problem with duplication of effort - 
but I have to note that this goes both ways.

Maven, Ruper, and Gump target similar goals.  They have different 
implementations and the merits (pluses AND minuses) of each can be debated.

Spreading them out across separate projects simply because some people 
don't want to work with one another is not right.

Jason, now let me ask you a direct question: if you don't want to work 
with the Apache infrastructure and can't or won't comply with Apache 
policies, then why do you want Maven to be an Apache project?

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-06 Thread Sam Ruby
Dan Diephouse wrote:

Steve Downey wrote:


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]


BTW, given the license discussions it seems unlikely a solution that
includes all the jars in the same place will work. So the repository
will be not only a storage for jars, but a set of tools to deal with
downloading from different locations with different methods ( and 
mirror
lists, etc ). Again - I think this part can only be apache-wide.

Sure, but let's not lose focus of what this is for. Distribution?
Building? A company/individual can set up their own repository of 
jars (we
all do) that they've accepted licenses for. The 'tools' should be 
able to
work with that set up, similar to how Maven does today.

One thing that has annoyed me is that Maven will download jars from the
ibiblio repository with no regard to the license of them. It's an easy 
way
for jars to come into a build without formal review and acceptance of the
license. My company's policy is to use only BSD, ASF, or similar 
licenses.
No GPL. And based on recent discussions here, we may prohibit LGPL. We do
also use commercially licensed software, and review carefully the
redistribution clauses. It's particularly troubling that the jars show up
without supporting documentation.

It is your responsibility to enforce that policy.  Not maven and not the 
ASF's.  When you integrate JAR or any resource into your project you are 
doing so delibrately.  You should know where that jar originally comes 
from.  If you don't, ask on the developers or user's list.  Someone will 
gladly help.  Even better, search google, I'm sure something will turn up.

- Dan Diephouse

People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF project 
should not involve the download of materials in violation of their 
licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations.  Enforcement of 
this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs are acceptable 
way of achieving this goal.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: [Fwd: Maven as a top-level apache project]

2003-02-06 Thread Sam Ruby
Dan Diephouse wrote:


People should have a resonable expectation that building an ASF 
project should not involve the download of materials in violation of 
their licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations.  
Enforcement of this policy via Maven or simply by peer review of POMs 
are acceptable way of achieving this goal.

Now I am honestly confused.  Everyone (not just on the list, but those 
on irc that I have talked to also) seems confused.  I just want to 
clarify if we are debating the following points and what are the 
answers.  I'll put what I think are the answers down and people can 
correct as needed.

For brevity, I'll omit the points I agree with, and address the ones 
that I have concerns with.  IANAL, but I am answering the following to 
the best of my knowledge with respect to the guidance and policy that 
have been stated by the likes of Roy and Ken.  In short, this means that 
I might later be corrected, but for what it is worth:

2.  Can ASF Projects use GPL/LGPL Projects?

Yes.  But, they cannot distribute them.


ASF projects can use GPL/LGPL code during the build process so long as 
there is no runtime dependency in the code produced.  Programs like 
checkstyle are OK.  Imports of classes covered by GPL/LGPL are not. 
This last statement needs to be interpreted as a transitive closure. 
Moving graph from jakarta commons sandbox to werken would not make it OK 
for Maven to use graph.

5.  Can ibiblio put Sun licensed jars on their repository?

Yes, but see the answer to the next question.


It is my belief that placing jars such as jsse.jar on ibibilio is in 
violation of the license for that jar.  There appear to be a number of 
of suspect packages on http://www.ibiblio.org/maven/.  dIon is trying to 
do a review of them all, but as in many cases the jars were put there 
without documentation, he is having difficulty.  If those who placed the 
jars there could help out, it would be most appreciated.

7.  Can maven pull down GPL/LGPL jars from the repository when a user is 
using it to build their project? Or, is maven responsible to make sure 
that users use the it to only pull down licenses which they agree to 
when building their project?

No.  It is ultimately the user's responsiblity.  But, it would be a very 
nice feature if it did that.

Agreed, however it is the responsibility of ASF projects to ensure that 
none of their POMs involve such a download.

8. Can maven as part of its own build system pull down GPL/LGPL jars 
when building itself?

Sam you said, People should have a resonable expectation that building 
an ASF project should not involve the download of materials in violation 
of their licenses or the incurring of any additional obligations.  Is 
this what situation you meant to apply it to?

I would believe that Maven can depend on LGPL/GPL jars and pull them 
down when needed to build itself.  Can you clarify?

I hope that the previous answers clarify why this is a No.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Illegal distribution of binaries by Gump

2003-02-06 Thread Sam Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've noticed that Gump distributes (via gump.covalent.net)  several jar 
files which appear to violate the license agreements found in the 
projects.

- xmlunit: The license requires:
* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above
   copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following
   disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided
   with the distribution.


- Various xdoclet jars:
Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, 
this
list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation 
and/or
other materials provided with the distribution.

- Werkz:
 2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the
above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the
following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other
materials provided with the distribution.

I'm sure there are many more.

Good catch.  I'll correct, and review the others for compliance.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: Clear the air Re: ATTN: Maven developers [was: primary distributionlocation]

2003-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby
Jason van Zyl wrote:

On Wed, 2003-02-05 at 14:45, Henri Yandell wrote:


The Sun licence stuff on there is more quesitonable. I figure as long as
ibiblio are aware they are liable, and that they have happily accepted
that liability, then it doesn't matter. Or do they pass the liability on
to the individual who set it up, [Jason?] ?


I removed them this morning and will remove any other JARs that are
brought to my attention. Sam named JAF, JavaMail and EJBs so I removed
those. I just got off the phone and I got a clear answer as to what
Apache could be liable for. If Maven, being an ASF piece of software, is
party to illegal assembly then the ASF could be liable. This I did not
think was the case as the JARs were not on ASF hardware but that doesn't
seem to matter. So the Sun violations can't happen anymore. Now we just
have to deal with LGPL and GPL issues.


Excellent.

All I ask now is that developers in Jakarta, particularly those involved 
in tools such as Maven that are a critical part of a number of build 
processes and involve the automatic downloading of dependencies, do a 
self assessment for license violations.

Do NOT simply wait and be reactive on this.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: failure notice

2003-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby
Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:



Roy T. Fielding wrote:


In short, the answer is no, and this applies to any software with
copyright of The Apache Software Foundation. 

which brings up a very good point that may have been overlooked:
this applies to anything on ibiblio or elsewhere that is copyright
the asf.  it does not apply strictly to the repositories on the asf
machines, but to the asf *code*.


This issue has come up before.  This time, let's flatten it.

In two weeks, there is a board meeting.  At that time, I would like to
be able to report that the contents of the Maven repository conforms to
the policies of the Apache Software Foundation.

Code under the ASF License is clearly OK.  As is the IBM Public License
(the pre-Jakarta BSF, for example) and the MPL (Rhino).  The following
public domain components are also approved: Antlr and Doug Lea's
concurrency package.

Licenses clearly not conforming to the ASF's policies for distribution:
LGPL, GPL, Sun's Binary Code License.

Please direct any questions or comments (including new licenses to be
considered) to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Some we can resolve for
ourselves (e.g., the specific public domain packages above).  Others
I'll batch up and forward to the board and/or licensing folk.

By the board meeting after that (3rd week in March), I'd like to have
the infrastructure issues resolved (where should this data should be
hosted, mirrored, etc).

- Sam Ruby


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ATTN: Maven developers [was: primary distribution location]

2003-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby
[Retry with a better subject line and the proper mailing lists addreses
... sigh]

Rodent of Unusual Size wrote:

Roy T. Fielding wrote:

In short, the answer is no, and this applies to any software with
copyright of The Apache Software Foundation.

which brings up a very good point that may have been overlooked:
this applies to anything on ibiblio or elsewhere that is copyright
the asf.  it does not apply strictly to the repositories on the asf
machines, but to the asf *code*.

This issue has come up before.  This time, let's flatten it.

In two weeks, there is a board meeting.  At that time, I would like to
be able to report that the contents of the Maven repository conforms to
the policies of the Apache Software Foundation.

Code under the ASF License is clearly OK.  As is the IBM Public License
(the pre-Jakarta BSF, for example) and the MPL (Rhino).  The following
public domain components are also approved: Antlr and Doug Lea's
concurrency package.

Licenses clearly not conforming to the ASF's policies for distribution:
LGPL, GPL, Sun's Binary Code License.

Please direct any questions or comments (including new licenses to be
considered) to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Some we can resolve for
ourselves (e.g., the specific public domain packages above).  Others
I'll batch up and forward to the board and/or licensing folk.

By the board meeting after that (3rd week in March), I'd like to have
the infrastructure issues resolved (where should this data should be
hosted, mirrored, etc).

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-01-23 Thread Sam Ruby
Martin Cooper wrote:


Just curious - Greg's board meeting summary didn't mention this, so I'm
wondering what the status is.


The board needs take no action... unless they object within 72 hours of 
the notification, the following people are now part of the Jakarta PMC:

Nicola Ken Barozzi
Robert Burrel Donkin
Stephen Colebourne
Martin Cooper
Henri Gomez
John Keyes
Larry Isaacs
Otis Gospodnetic
Thomas Mahler
Remy Maucherat
Glenn Nielsen
Andrew C Oliver
Rob Oxspring
Martin Poeschl
Scott Sanders
David Sean Taylor
Glen Stampoultzis
Mladen Turk
James Turner
Henri Yandell

I do not expect any issues, so people on this list should feel free to 
subscribe to the pmc mailing list (I'll moderate through the requests), 
and update http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html appropriately.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto

2003-01-22 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


Please note that my support is based on the following assumptions:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?TalkPlutoProposal


Andy,

This is an *excellent* list to work from.  Thanks!

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-01-21 Thread Sam Ruby
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I propose to nominate Glen Stampoultzis


On 16 Jan 2003, Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Also want ask you to also nominate Robert Burrel Donkin.


+1 to both.

It is my intent to declare this vote closed immediately prior to 
tomorrow's ASF board meeting, and notify the board of the new PMC 
members at that time.

PMC members who have not voted and wish to do so, speak now or forever 
hold your peace.  ;-)

- Sam Ruby



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Re: New Jakarta proposal: Pluto

2003-01-21 Thread Sam Ruby
Steven Noels wrote:

 I was trying not to post the obvious, but yes: this seems largely
 premature.

Deja vu.

Check back next week for the inevitable complaint that Pluto is too mature.

 No code, a restricted community, too much committers coming from one
 company, I've seen better proposals being fought over lately.

Code is forthcoming.

Multiple existing Apache committers.  Multiple distinct corporate 
contributors.  In support of a standard (I'll leave that term 
undefined).  Strongly related to an existing Jakarta subproject.

I have talked to the person who submitted this proposal, both via notes 
and on the phone.  I gave explicit guidance as to what questions to have 
answered in the original proposal, where to send it (general AND 
incubator, if you notice).  To post the text on the web AND include it 
verbatim in the note.  Etc.

I also gave warning that there is likely to be extended and lengthy 
discussion as to where this code should land instead of on the merits of 
the project itself...

 Also, possible future integration 'ideas' with some related projects
 would be comforting (Jetspeed, Tomcat, Struts/Tiles, and the Cocoon
 portal framework for a starter).

I can't resist a Jon'ism here:

Thanks for volunteering!

- Sam Ruby


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Re: New Projects

2003-01-21 Thread Sam Ruby
Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

What is it with IBM people suddenly wanting to start projects based around
JSR's? Looks suspicious to me.


IBM has proposed ASF projects in the past.  IBM has both lead and 
participated in JSRs.  In fact, JSR 110 is both lead by IBM and has an 
open source reference implementation [1].

What's the surprise?

-jon


[1] http://www-124.ibm.com/developerworks/projects/wsdl4j/



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Re: [PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-01-21 Thread Sam Ruby
Charles Burdick wrote:

The criteria you used for nominating people seems a bit weird to me. 
Release managers I understand somewhat, but contributers to the
newsletter?  That's like saying those that baked cookies for the last
board meeting should be nominated.

I have a lot more respect for the newsletter than that.


Weird.  Arbitrary.  Rewards self-promotion, not necessarily merit.


Don't forget, incomplete.


I am especially disturbed since your list of release managers is
definitely incomplete.  What did you use to generate this list?


Ah, you did't forget.  Good.


I distinctly remember that Morgan Delagrange served as release manager
for Commons Collections last spring.  He is also currently the release
manager for Jelly.  

Selection criteria aside, I nominate Morgan for the PMC.

Damn, I wanted to do that.  ;-)


Now that I think of it, let me just skim through the
Jakarta-Announcements archive from various points last year.

 - Danny Angus
 - Peter Carlson
 - Morgan Delagrange
 - Pier Fumagalli
 - Ceki Gülcü
 - Dmitri Plotnikov
 - Phillip Rhodes

To add to the list, I'd like to nominate these active committers:

 - James Strachan
 - Jason van Zyl
 - Ted Husted
 - Rod Waldhoff

I nominate all of them.  (And why not, if the PMC is to become a fairly
arbitrary but huge group of permanently installed members.)


All good nominations.  Pier, Ceki, Jason, and Ted previously served as 
PMC members and declined their renominations, but I plan to talk to them 
 about that.  At a minimum, they will be restored as emeritus members.

One last note - please indicate your intended timeframe and deadline 
when you call for the vote rather than later in the thread.

Hmm.  Me thinks Chuck may have the makings for a good PMC chair someday. 
 I hear that there may be a vacancy shortly...  ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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[PMC VOTE] PMC Nominations

2003-01-16 Thread Sam Ruby
Reorging the Jakarta PMC apparently has become an annual event.  This
year will be no different.  I've had lengthy talks with the Apache
Board, and this has caused me to revisit a number of assumptions.

Looking at http://httpd.apache.org/contributors/, it is clear that the
ASF concept of a Project Management Committee permits a significantly
larger number of PMC members per project than I, at least, had ever
presumed.

Given the success that Jakarta has had to date, I don't want to propose
any rapid, irreversable, or disruptive changes.  But the goal should be
clear: the PMC should consist of *all* the people who are actively and
consistently monitoring the code.

So for the first step, I'd like to nominate the following individuals
who have contributed multiple times to the Jakarta newsletter and/or 
recently served as a release manager of a Jakarta subproject:

  [  ]  Nicola Ken Barozzi
  [  ]  Stephen Colebourne
  [  ]  Martin Cooper
  [  ]  Henri Gomez
  [  ]  John Keyes
  [  ]  Larry Isaacs
  [  ]  Otis Gospodnetic
  [  ]  Thomas Mahler
  [  ]  Remy Maucherat
  [  ]  Glenn Nielsen
  [  ]  Andrew C Oliver
  [  ]  Rob Oxspring
  [  ]  Martin Poeschl
  [  ]  Scott Sanders
  [  ]  David Sean Taylor
  [  ]  Mladen Turk
  [  ]  James Turner
  [  ]  Henri Yandell

Future steps will include introduction of a concept of an emeritus PMC
member, reinstating prior PMC members who are still active, and more
nominations (particularly those that chose to contribute to the
newsletter, and/or act as release manager, hint, hint).

Longer term, the plan is to move the subprojects that chose to remain in
Jakarta towards becoming a single community - in particular release
votes will become a responsibility of the PMC.  That does not mean that
all PMC members will vote on all releases, but that it will be from this
pool of members that release votes will be cast.  Clearly there will
need to be a number waves of additions like the one above to the PMC
before we get to this point.

Meanwhile, my plan is to see to it that those subprojects that desire to
become ASF projects will get the full cooperation and support of this PMC.

Now for some fine print:

* nominees may chose to decline without giving any reason

* only current PMC member's votes are binding

* once the vote completes, PMC membership is not effective until 48
hours after a board member acknowledges receipt of these votes.

Let the voting begin!

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  My vote is +1 on all.



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Re: Help needed on JMeter nightly builds

2003-01-09 Thread Sam Ruby
Jordi Salvat i Alabart wrote:


You'll be happy to know that your effort responding your questions was 
not in vain. Gump runs are now building JMeter and producing meaningful 
results.

:-)


Gump is now building the JMeter's distribution files into 
jakarta-jmeter/dist. Would it be possible to copy all files found in 
there to http://cvs.apache.org/builds/jakarta-jmeter/nightly/date 
after each build? In this way we'll be able to decide how exactly we 
want to pack up our distribution without having to bug you again.

Added it to the list for tomorrow.  We'll see how it goes.


Just two more questions (hopefully last ones for a while):

1/ Would it be a good idea to run our unit tests during the nightly 
build? On one side, doing so would fit better into the continuous 
integration Gump concept. On the other side, looks like the build 
machines (or at least Nagoya) have a really tough time keeping up with 
the work, and our tests take a while... what's your opinion?

Go for it.  Yes, Nagoya is a bit pokey, but the price is right.  ;-)


2/ JMeter binary distribution contains all the jars for all the projects 
it depends on. I think it needs to be that way: JMeter is an app for 
plain users, not a library for developers, and we want it to be 
installable and runnable with minimum hassle for the user. The way it 
currently works this would cause those binaries to run against library 
versions different from the ones used at compilation -- which doesn't 
look very nice. The question is: does Gump provide a way to copy some of 
those jars into the jakarta-jmeter/lib directory before the build? Pls. 
note that I said some, because there's a few we just can't distribute 
(licensing issues).

The basic strategy is to specify the the files that you copy with ant 
properties.  You can then tell gump to provide the actual jar name for 
this property.  The easiest way to do this is to move the depend 
elements for the jars that you want to do this with inside the ant 
element, and add a property= attribute.  This is best explained by 
example, so look for logkit.jar in the following files:

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-gump/project/jakarta-avalon.xml?rev=HEADcontent-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs/jakarta-avalon/build.xml?rev=HEADcontent-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  Don't be afraid to ask questions.  But perhaps this should be in 
the [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list?



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Re: Help needed on JMeter nightly builds

2003-01-08 Thread Sam Ruby
Jordi Salvat i Alabart wrote:


* Gump reads the project descriptors to establish a dependency tree, 
then builds each project in order.

Yes.


* Gump uses a modified ant which totally ignores all classpath 
settings -- instead it places all JARs exported by projects depended 
upon into the classpath.

Ant isn't modified, it is passed a build.sysclasspath paramter.  The 
version of Ant which is used to do the builds is built from cvs.

But, effectively, the result is the same.

Q1: is it then best practice to remove all those jars from our lib/*.jar 
in CVS?

While removing such jars is my preference, others will disagree. 
Suffice it to say that there is no consensus.

* Thus the Gump nightly builds always happen against the CVS versions of 
all projects -- which means that if I build JMeter from the sources on 
my workstation I won't get the exact same results (since I will be 
building against released versions of those projects).

True.

You also won't get the exact same results if you use a different 
compiler.  ;-)

* The copying of build results to 
http://cvs.apache.org/builds/jakarta-jmeter/nightly/ is not done by 
Gump. (Even though it must be run just after (some?) builds).

Q: how can I have the JMeter distribution files published there?

As you have an id on that machine, you are certainly welcome to publish 
files there.  The SCP utility is handy for such things.

Also, anything that I build with gump that you find of value, I am 
willing to upload.

You will find that a lot of things work this way around here.  While you 
will occasionally find somebody telling you what *not* to do, and often 
find that there are people who will tell you what they are willing to 
do, you will rarely find somebody telling you what to do.

In this case: if you want me to upload more, fine.  If you want me to 
upload less, fine.  Just don't ask me to build something different.

* The publishing of the src snapshot in that same directory has nothing 
to do with Gump.

gump starts out by doing a cvs update directory maintained separate from 
the build.  At the end of the gump run, that directory is zipped and 
tarred up and uploaded.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: Help needed on JMeter nightly builds

2003-01-07 Thread Sam Ruby
Jordi Salvat i Alabart wrote:


JMeter nightly builds have been failing for a long while (long before I 
joined the project, actually). Noone in the project seems to know why: 
it builds OK everywhere else. I've tried e-mailing [EMAIL PROTECTED] to 
get access to Nagoya (where I believe the builds happen), but got no 
reply. I've e-mailed [EMAIL PROTECTED] for help (looked like the 
first logical step), but got no reply.

I'm not sure what you are seeing, but jmeter builds for me:

http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/2003-01-06/jakarta-jmeter.html
http://cvs.apache.org/builds/jakarta-jmeter/nightly/
http://gump.covalent.net/jars/2003-01-06/jakarta-jmeter/

Can you describe the problem you are seeing?

- Sam Ruby



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Re: cvs commit messages for jmeter-dev

2003-01-01 Thread Sam Ruby
Scott Eade wrote:

It seems that jakarta-jmeter cvs commit messages are no longer being sent to
the JMeter Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED].  The last commit
message was on December 14 2002, but there have most definitely been commits
since then.

Can someone please either fix this, provide the details necessary to fix
this or point me to the information about how to fix this (it appears that
the method used to configure this is well beyond what is covered in the cvs
manual).


There were a number of moderation messages pending.  I just went in and 
manually approved a number of them.  The current moderator for james-dev 
is [EMAIL PROTECTED]  If somebody else would like to volunteer to 
moderate this mailing list, simply send a note to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Sam Ruby



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[Fwd: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/acknowledgements.html]

2002-12-30 Thread Sam Ruby
Thoughts?

 Original Message 
Subject: http://jakarta.apache.org/site/acknowledgements.html
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 00:41:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Brian Behlendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


I know you're probably not the right person to bring this to, but you
probably do know the right person...

This page should be updated to remove:

hyperreal.org - other than being the primary DNS server, it's not still
the server this is hosted from

clearink.com - AFAIK they don't provide anything, they don't even exist
anymore.

above.net - they provide nothing for free, CollabNet pays them money for
apache.org's bandwidth

In general, we may ask whether this page is even appropriate, as it will
always be incomplete and often out of date even with what it does list.

	Brian



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[Fwd: [VOTE] Tapestry / Incubator]

2002-12-29 Thread Sam Ruby
+1 on accepting Tapestry as a Jakarta subproject under the mentorship of 
Andy Oliver, conditional upon successful incubation.

Next steps would be identifying the list of initial committers, cvs 
tree(s), and mailing list(s).  But this can wait until the incubator PMC 
signs off on the subproject.

 Original Message 
Subject: [VOTE] Tapestry / Incubator
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 2002 11:35:31 -0500
From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tapestry Contrib [EMAIL PROTECTED]
CC: Rodent of Unusual Size [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], 
 Jakarta Project Management Committee List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
References: 005001c2ada2$e6846a20$3dc41e42@howardczkz2sl3

Ok, all the votes are in, except for Mind Bridge who I believe is
travelling.  Not unexpected, all the votes were +1.

Once again, we've voted to go forward and move Tapestry towards Jakarta, 
via Incubator.

We're eagerly awaiting word from Jakarta about what the next steps 
should be.

I've attached the proposal again, for reference.  Although we have to
migrate in through the Incubator, it looks like the proposal does not 
need to be changed.



- Original Message -
From: Howard M. Lewis Ship [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Tapestry Contrib [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 7:24 AM
Subject: [Tapestry-contrib] [VOTE] Tapestry / Incubator


 As Andrew has pointed out, the roadmap into Jakarta is in transition.
Looks
 like Tapestry gets to be the first project through the Incubator.

 Anyway, I believe this is more of a correction than a change of course,
but
 deserves a vote anyway.

 Howard Lewis Ship +1


 - Original Message -
 From: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Tapestry Contrib [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jim
 Jagielski [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Jakarta Project
 Management Committee List [EMAIL PROTECTED];
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:09 PM
 Subject: [Tapestry-contrib] Apache Proposal AGAIN


  Hi All,
 
  The process for accepting a project into Apache has changed.  Now all
  projects need to go through the Incubator
  [http://incubator.apache.org].  It is my opinion that this project
  already meets the criteria for acceptance into Jakarta
  however, the Apache board has added this step as a gate between 
here and
  Jakarta.
 
  I suspect the incubation period will be short.  There is a catch.  We
  will still have to apply to Jakarta after the incubation and
  the process for incubation is not very well defined.  There will be a
  number of bumps in the road and issues to be addressed.
 
  However, I have the utmost confidence in this community and your talent
  and abillity to work together and make decisions.
  I am positive that this will be a fine addition to Apache in the 
end, in
  particular Jakarta.
 
  With that being said, please consider this issue and signify whether I
  should move forward with submitting the proposal to the
  incubator.
 
  Thanks,
 
  -Andy
 
 
 
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  This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek
  Welcome to geek heaven.
  http://thinkgeek.com/sf
  ___
  Tapestry-contrib mailing list
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/tapestry-contrib
 



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[0] rationale

Tapestry, currently housed at the SourceForge (http://tapestry.sf.net), is a 
component-based web application framework.  Tapestry falls generally into the pull-MVC 
model of development.

Tapestry is designed specifically around the creation of completely re-usable 
components.  Components can easily be packaged into libraries and distributed within 
Jar files, even when they contain assets such as image files and stylesheets.

Tapestry is organized around an abstraction that isolates application-specific logic 
from the details of the servlet API, such as HttpSession, request, response, URLs and 
query parameters.

Tapestry is highly pluggable, allowing any and all behavior to be customized by 
subclassing appropriate base classes.

Tapestry is specifically not a JSP taglib.  Tapestry uses its own method for 
instrumenting HTML that is extremely non-obtrusive (it still previews properly in a 
WYSIWYG editor).  Tapestry has well specified, separate roles for HTML producers and 
Java developers, and allows them to work together without interfering with each other.

The goal of Tapestry is to shift much of the burden of developing web applications 
onto the framework, and free the developer to work cleanly and effectively without 
concern for the many small details of web application development.  The primary 
function of 

Re: Your Site

2002-12-27 Thread Sam Ruby
Glenn Barnard wrote:


Hi, I'm writing to let you know that navigating your site is impossible. 
I have wasted hour upon hour trying to find things. For example: JUnit, 
Jelly, etc. You have to send users to Google to find things. I still 
haven't been able to get to JUnit.

The place to find junit is http://www.junit.org/index.htm .  This is not 
an ASF project, in fact it is hosted by SourceForge.

While Jelly shows much promise, it is still in its formative stages. 
You can find it listed in http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/index.html 
under the Sandbox Components section.

If you want a fairly comprehensive list of ASF related Java projects, 
try going to http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/latest/.  Click on the 
project you desire and you will see a build log.  Click on a link that 
says definition, and you will find the url to the project's home page.

Secondly, the amount of Getting Started documentation on Jelly is 
useless. I've tried again and again to get the files I need to run this 
amazing software and I'm getting nowhere.

Try asking your questions on the commons-user mailing list.  Go to 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html for instructions.

You have an inordinate number of brainiacs contributing software. Why 
can't someone figure out how to make to easily accessible?

Constructive suggestions are always welcome.

- Sam Ruby


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[PMC VOTE] Gump subproject

2002-12-27 Thread Sam Ruby
Per previous discussion, it seems that there is wide agreement that the 
gump code, stylesheets, and data should be updatable by every committer. 
 Towards that end, I plan to move gump from 
jakarta-alexandria-proposals to jakarta-gump.  I also plan to create a 
single [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list.

This effectively makes it a jakarta subproject, albeit one with a rather 
large set of potential committers.  I am merely putting this to a formal 
vote to see if there are any objections.  Note that making this a 
jakarta subproject does not preclude it from becoming an ASF project in 
the future.

Given that this is the holiday season and that all prior discussion did 
not uncover any negative votes, it is my plan to keep this vote open 
into the first week of the new year, and to optimisically start with the 
creation of the cvs and mailing list.  Should this resolution not pass, 
I'll delete and revert all changes.

My vote is +1.

- Sam Ruby




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Re: [PMC VOTE] Gump subproject

2002-12-27 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Might you consider adding committers as they ask for karma, in the same 
way that jakarta-site2 is open to all, but we just add them as they 
desire to particiapate (making it clear somewhere that it's open to 
all...)?  The only reason I suggest this is that the interested party 
pops up into the active group's awareness of who's involved...

That's essentially the current rule, but it doesn't stop the whining:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-devm=104099212311029w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-devm=104099390211903w=2

I would think that cvs commit messages would be sufficient for making 
people aware of activity.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?

2002-12-20 Thread Sam Ruby
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:


Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient 
rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere
with filesystem access? 

Your definition of ACTION is AskSam?

AFAIK, your authority and mine with respect to being able to execute cgi 
scripts on a machine like cvs.apache.org are the same.  I just did a few 
tests, and apparently I don't have permission.

If not, what about servlet engine + database access?


Not on any BSD machine.  You will find a more receptive set of sysadmins 
on nagoya.

In any case, the right place to pursue this is [EMAIL PROTECTED]

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Various answers, in no particular order:

This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a time delay 
(once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .

I raised the issue about Tapestry in yesterday's board meeting.  Jim 
Jagielski agreed to contact Andy ASAP.  First thing after the holidays 
would be a good time to pursue XDoclet.  It's time to unpause.  ;-)
Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] and express your desires as to where this 
codebase would land within the ASF.

My opinion is that subprojects that lack community due to stability 
should become community property.  Perhaps commit messages should be 
directed to general@.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [POLL] OS of choice

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
glens and jmitchell now have karma to jakarta-site2

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Danny Angus wrote:

This is a chairman's report.  Typically, these appear after a time delay 
(once approved in a subsequent meeting) at 
http://www.apache.org/foundation/board/calendar.html .

thats what I thought, but I don't see any recent jakarta ones.


Bad, Jakarta chairman, bad.

- Sam Ruby



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[discussion] jakarta-gump as community property

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Gump is now two years old.  It has had contributions from over a dozen 
people, about a half-dozen this month alone.  There seems to be a 
renewed interest in gump (some in response to a little nudging grin).

Considering all of this, what I would like to propose is that the 
contents of jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump get moved to jakarta-gump, 
all committers to any jakarta code base be given karma and voting rights 
on the full contents (descriptors, code, and stylesheets alike) and that 
a single [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing be created (we are all devs 
here, right?)

Thoughts?

- Sam Ruby




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Re: [discussion] jakarta-gump as community property

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Craig R. McClanahan wrote:


I like the idea of Gump becoming community property, but should it really
be only for Jakarta committers?  I'm thinking in particular about groups
like Ant and Avalon (recently graduated into full fledged Apache
projects), as well as the XML packages that Gump also watches over.


I just dug into cvs_acls.pl, and it looks like this is possible; I'm 
certainly fine with that idea.

- Sam Ruby

P.S.  Since Gump simply runs commands and captures output, there is no 
technical reason why it needs to be limited to Java code bases.


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Re: Jakarta PMC report

2002-12-19 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


Come on.  Does anyone really *like* XSL?


I do.

http://cvs.apache.org/viewcvs.cgi/*checkout*/jakarta-alexandria/proposal/gump/stylesheet/xref.xsl?rev=1.21content-type=text/plain

- Sam Ruby


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Jakarta PMC report

2002-12-18 Thread Sam Ruby
The status report for Jakarta project is available at 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news.html and 
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/news/index.html.  These summaries are 
community developed, monitored, and maintained.  Feedback on their 
contents should be directed to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED].

I tried unsuccessfully to summarize the summaries without looking like I 
was trying to prove a point about it not being a good idea.  Of course, 
this begs the question about what happens when Jakarta is split up and 
all this data feeds directly into the board, but I digress.

Overall, the imperialistic expansion phase of Jakarta has been put on 
pause.  No new code bases have been accepted.  Two colonies, Ant and 
Avalon, have split off successfully.  The only issue in this area is 
Tapestry which unfortunately has been left in limbo in the process, 
neither accepted by Jakarta nor by the Incubator.

The biggest unresolved issues in Jakarta deal with codebases on either 
end of the maturity spectrum.  There are code bases which seen to be 
perennially in alpha, and therefore feel the right to change interfaces 
on a whim and without regard to the community impact of such changes. 
Unfortunately, the existence of a sandbox seems to have 
institutionalized this policy.  Unquestionably, code bases in alpha 
should be allowed to experiment, but the establishment of a playground 
where this takes place indefinitely is not in the best interest of the ASF.

On the other end of the spectrum is codebases which have matured to the 
point where there aren't enough itches to scratch to maintain a 
development community.  Such codebases (for example, regexp) are heavily 
depended upon and so interwoven into the fabric of many Jakarta 
subprojects that it is hard to imagine removing then from the ASF 
despite the somewhat different community dynamic one sees thre.  There 
isn't even a quorum to hold a proper release vote or people actively 
monitoring the bug reports and commits.  This is a problem.


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Re: [POLL] OS of choice

2002-12-17 Thread Sam Ruby
Conor MacNeill wrote:


Could I please have site karma?


Done.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: The organization of xml.apache.org

2002-12-05 Thread Sam Ruby
Ted Leung wrote:

Jeff's question below about the legal relevance of PMC's is a good one.
Does someone from the board have a definitive answer for this?


IANAL.

The simplest and most direct answer is that if the PMCs which were set 
up for this expressed purpose can not demonstrate that they have 
provided oversight, then the ASF itself is exposed.

With that out of the way, two examples, assuming PMCs exercising proper 
oversight:

1) A person who is a committer explicitly and intentionally sets out to 
sabotage the ASF by introducing code which is owned by a third party 
without the permission of that third party.  That code is quickly 
detected; the code and the committer are ejected.  There never is a 
release with that code.

The third party could decide to pursue legal action against the 
sabotager, but the ASF did its job.

2) Somebody attempts asserts ownership of a concept (say, hyperlinks), 
for which there is ample prior art, and an ASF codebase that provides an 
implementation of that concept.  The ASF asserts ownership over that 
codebase and explicitly indemnifies its shareholders, namely its 
membership.

For these examples to work there needs to not be any nooks and crannies 
where unmonitored code may reside.

I hope I got this right, but I am sure that Roy will correct me if I'm 
wrong.  ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Short Apache licence for source files

2002-12-05 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote:


I thought that we were also supposed and even encouraged to think for
ourselves. No one has suggested to defy the board. I resent the shut-
-up-and-do-as-you-are-told attitude which does not characterize you,
the ASF, nor anyone on the board. What is going on here?


Would a shut-up-and-think-for-yourself be any better?  It seems to me 
that you are seeking an explicit sanction for the practice of using the 
current license by reference.

The ASF is very much centered around an open and pragmatic license.  If 
you want to weaken this a bit in the name of saving a few bytes, the ASF 
is not going to falter and fold.

At the moment, this may be the closest thing to a sanction you may get. 
 If a better one becomes available, I'll be sure to forward it on.

Peace.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Short Apache licence for source files

2002-12-04 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote:


2) Good faith but cautious interpretation

In this case, someone is worried that the license applies to the
license file itself but not to other files. Thus, he or she decides
not use our software for fear of violating copyright law. Isn't this a
bit farfetched? Couldn't we address this concern in the license FAQ? 

I happen to work for a large corporation which has an annoying tendency 
to err towards the cautious side when making such interpretations.

Could we say referring to the license 1.1 is not recommended practice
but doing so does NOT make you a bad citizen?


Judgement calls like this are always relative.  It certainly is possible 
that someone caught in a situation where they are required to make a 
cautious interpretation might feel less than charitably inclined towards 
the citizens who made choices against the recommended practices of their 
community, particularly when they find such choices making their life 
more difficult.

- Sam Ruby



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Re: IDE Developers' guide

2002-11-25 Thread Sam Ruby
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



One of the things I find most frustrating is dealing with IDE 
Developers, meaning those developers who cut their teeth on
Microsoft tools and never learned how to even set their PATH let alone 
their classpath. 

And why the heck should they? Any decent software worth it's salt doesn't 
make the user touch their classpath :)

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/LeakyAbstractions.html

And whenever I want to use two components built by such decent 
software, I inevitably find that they both use a common component. 
Unfortunately, component A only supports the use of versions up to 
version N-1 of that common component, and component B only supports 
version N+1 of that common component or later.

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=alexandria-devm=103748752623609w=2
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=alexandria-devm=103817240230787w=2
http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/2002-11-25/jakarta-turbine-maven.html

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Broken nightly builds for some projects?

2002-11-15 Thread Sam Ruby
otisg wrote:

 
http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-lucene/nightly/

I still have more clean up to do, but the quick answer is that these 
moved to cvs.apache.org.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Broken nightly builds for some projects?

2002-11-15 Thread Sam Ruby
otisg wrote:

Ok, so it's a known problem that somebody is
working on, good :)
Do you have any estimate about how long it
will take to get nightly builds going again?


The nightly builds are going.  As I said, the output has now been placed 
at a new location.  In the case of lucene, the output is at

http://cvs.apache.org/builds/jakarta-lucene/nightly/

For more information, see

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-generalm=103694797821052w=2

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Gump changes

2002-11-12 Thread Sam Ruby
Pier Fumagalli wrote


So I'm wondering why the heck I'm running that thing 4 times a day,
if at the end, no one uses it...


It should only be run on Nagoya twice a day.  As a general rule, builds 
have the most success on a Linux/intel machine, so that's the one that I 
call the official one.

It is very helpful to have gump run more than once a day so that people 
who are making changes that they don't *think* will impact others have 
an opportunity to verify this before all sorts of nag messages go out.

So, gump runs every 6 hours spread across 3 machines.

- Sam Ruby


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Gump changes

2002-11-10 Thread Sam Ruby
A number of gump changes that some might want to be aware of:

1) Due to space concerns, gump's output is moving from 
daedalus.apache.org to icarus.apache.org.  This includes build logs, cvs 
extract snapshots, and nightly builds.  If you have any urls which 
reference one of these, simply change the first name in the URL from 
either jakarta or xml to cvs.

Example: http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/latest/

2) Unless I hear significant objections, I plan to upgrade to JDK 1.4 as 
there are getting to be too many failures as JDK 1.4 specific methods 
are increasingly being used.  Current examples include:

http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/2002-11-10/jakarta-bcel.html
http://cvs.apache.org/builds/gump/2002-11-10/jakarta-tomcat-catalina.html

3) I plan to move Gump out of Alexandria.  My favorite suggestion to 
date is from Costin: move Gump to jakarta-commons.  If you care to 
comment on this, please direct your replies to alexandria-dev.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-26 Thread Sam Ruby
Howard M. Lewis Ship wrote:

So, this went out about a week ago, and the guidelines only cover as far as
publishing a proposal on the Jakarta General List.  What is the next step?

So far, I haven't seen any real negative responses, and a lot of positive
ones (I think a lot of ex-WebObjects folks are lurking about :-)).  I could
summarize in more detail if that would be helpful.  Obviously, the PMC
hasn't really weighed in.  Again, what next?


I'm +1 overall, but as Peter aluded to previously there are some 
mechanics to be worked out.  This has nothing directly to do with your 
proposal, merely that there is a new incubator committee which is in 
the process of forming, and a strong desire for this to be used for 
contributions such as these.

So, in other words, you may very well get to be a guinee pig.  Whee!

For a peek into the current status, see http://incubator.apache.org/

I was going to wait further in the hopes that there will be more 
structure in place to greet you when you get there, but perhaps a 
tangible contribution is exactly what the incubator team needs to 
provide focus.

So, without further ado, I suggest you join the 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list and introduce yourself.  They 
know you are coming.

Please don't take this as being shuttled about.  I plan to monitor this, 
and will step in and provide helpful nudges if it ever appears to stall.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-26 Thread Sam Ruby
Pier Fumagalli wrote:


Now, this looks like a little bit contradictory to me, you say let's vote
(and I assume that the Jakarta community needs to vote), the Jakarta
president says let's make Incubator vote, and Tapestry be our guinea pig.

As I said, I'm not a part of this community (not a committer, not a PMC
member), neither a member of the Incubator community, but seeing it things
from a little bit of distance, WHO needs to vote? Jakarta or Incubator?


http://jakarta.apache.org/site/management.html

For Tapestry to become a subproject of Jakarta requires a 3/4 majority 
of the PMC.  I am very interested in getting the incubator team to help 
with the licensing issues and community issues.

I am optimistic about the outcome as there are plenty of people 
motivated to make this work.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-19 Thread Sam Ruby
John McNally wrote:

-1.  
Jakarta already has two webapp frameworks and I do not see any reason to
add another.  

It is a non-goal of Jakarta to have only one webapp framework, or to 
limit itself to two.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Tapestry joins Jakarta

2002-10-19 Thread Sam Ruby
John McNally wrote:


If a project is proposed that overlaps a (or a few) current project, I
just think the bar needs to be a bit higher for approval.


With that clarification, I agree.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Interesting quote....

2002-06-18 Thread Sam Ruby

Doug Bateman wrote:

 Sorry, I just don't measure success in terms of defeating Microsoft.  And
 I'd wager Gandi's goal wasn't to defeat Britian, but to free India.
 Hopefully, Apache feels the same way. Last I checked, beating Microsoft
 was never mentioned in the Apache mission statement.

+1

- Sam Ruby



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-29 Thread Sam Ruby

Ted Husted wrote:

 I believe the fundamental principal behind our system is

Them that does the work makes the decisions.

+1

 I believe a secondary principal behind our system is

Thanks for volunteering.

+1

 - Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-28 Thread Sam Ruby

Leo Simons wrote:

 Since committing is voting, what I think what some people want is a
 non-vetoing Committer.

 I think 'some people' don't see/don't agree to the committing is
 voting, and then what they want is a Developer-with-CVS-access, which
 is more or less what they said.

 Committing is voting is not reflected in our guidelines (at least I
 couldn't find such a notion).

In projects like http://httpd.apache.org/dev/guidelines.html, any
impleementation of an idea (as opposed to a simple patch) must be
review-then-comment.  In most Jakarta subprojects, the norm is lazy
consensus as defined in http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html.

So, think of a commit as the first (any typically only) +1 most changes get.

 Someone to do the work without sharing in the
 responsibility.

 sounds like what we call developer in our guidelines ;)

A developer can suggest a change.

A committer can make it happen.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-27 Thread Sam Ruby

Ted Husted wrote:

 Since committing is voting...

+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Sam Ruby

Ceki Gülcü wrote:

 The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
 author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
 enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
 volunteers if they all pull in different directions?

Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.

- Sam Ruby


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