Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-22 Thread robert burrell donkin
On Mon, 2005-03-21 at 17:20 -0800, Bill Barker wrote:
 - Original Message -
 From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org
 Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM
 Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?
 
 
  From: Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
  
   As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
   this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
  
   What motivate the move to TLP now.
 
  Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
  task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises
 the
  question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
  issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.
 
 
 Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire
 Tomcat community.
 
 I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all
 know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision.

this isn't tomcat bashing: it applies equally to all jakarta
sub-projects. 

the jakarta pmc (including stephen) supervises every sub-project
(including tomcat) on behalf of the board. once a sub-project community
feels that they are ready to manage their own affairs, that's great but
there can be no question of self-governing sub-projects: it's time for
them to move on and up :)

- robert


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Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Jim Jagielski
On Mar 21, 2005, at 12:17 PM, Mladen Turk wrote:
Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?
Personally, I think the Tomcat community is large enough and
healthy enough to warrant change to a TLP.
I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
encrypted or evil :).
Now you're just being paranoid ;)
But then again, when I pass your Email through my
patented is-it-evil.py Evil detection code, it
decodes as Bwaaa H Ha Ha! Ack!! :)
Cheers!
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Jim Jagielski wrote:
 Mladen Turk wrote:
  Anyhow, what are your feelings that we (Tomcat developers),
  propose to the ASF to be nominated as TLP?

I'd say that it is about time.

 I know that some of you will think (since it's coming from me)
 'Damn, JBoss is trying to control the Tomcat', but there
 is just Remy and myself, with dozen of other developers, each
 of them having a veto for anything that we try to commit as
 encrypted or evil :).

I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture.  If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
Cool, means so much to me.
I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
Only over your employer's attempts at self-portraiture.  If anything, I am
more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy getting caught in the crossfire.
Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
Regards,
Mladen.
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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Mladen Turk wrote:

 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
  I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.

 Cool, means so much to me.
 I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)

My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.

  If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
  getting caught in the crossfire.

 Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.

I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Henri Gomez
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.

As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.

What motivate the move to TLP now.

Regards


On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Mladen Turk wrote:
 
  Noel J. Bergman wrote:
   I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
 
  Cool, means so much to me.
  I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
 
 My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
 there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
 As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
 the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
 and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
 a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
 Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
 
   If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
   getting caught in the crossfire.
 
  Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
 
 I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
 
 --- Noel
 
 
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Mladen Turk
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
Please, lets calm the things down.
Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
will still spin tomorrow.
Regards,
Mladen.
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Torsten Curdt
 Please, lets calm the things down.
 Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
 will still spin tomorrow.

...that's an excellent ending for this discussion :)

Thanks
--
Torsten


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Stephen Colebourne
From: Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
What motivate the move to TLP now.
Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main 
task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises the 
question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these 
issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.

For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on 
emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would have 
been a non-issue.

Stephen
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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Pros:
- Tomcat pmc will be responsible for all its actions and decisions
- Report directly to board every quarter
- No meddling from outsiders (jakarta-general folks and others (read
jakarta pmc) from the peanut gallery :)
- Top Level domain - http://tomcat.apache.org/
- One of pmc members can become a VP 
- Tomcat committers (via pmc) will have full control over all affairs
including what to name the thingy :)

Cons:
- Can't think of any off the top of my head.

-- dims

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:27:32 +0100, Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
 
 As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
 this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
 
 What motivate the move to TLP now.
 
 Regards
 
 On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:16:51 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Mladen Turk wrote:
 
   Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I am not aware of any complaints regarding your technical contributions.
 
   Cool, means so much to me.
   I also have no complaints on your technical skills :)
 
  My observation, not opinion, was in response to your expressing concern that
  there would be outside opposition based upon you and Remy working for JBoss.
  As far as I'm aware, no one has ever complained about a contribution biasing
  the product for JBoss.  And, as you had pointed out, there are two of you
  and many others with veto rights.  In fact, although I have not looked to do
  a body count, my belief is that Tomcat is more balanced than Beehive, Derby,
  Lenya or XMLBeans, to name a few.
 
If anything, I am more likely to feel sorry for you and Remy
getting caught in the crossfire.
 
   Please don't sorry me, and don't insult my intelligence.
 
  I'm mystified as to how you could derive the latter from my comment.
 
  --- Noel
 
 
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Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/

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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Dims,

The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
associated with them, too.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Bill Barker

- Original Message -
From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Jakarta General List general@jakarta.apache.org
Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?


 From: Henri Gomez [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Well I'd like to know the pros and cons of Tomcat being TLP.
 
  As I said in tomcat-dev, it was proposed when ant became TLP and at
  this time the consensus was to stay under jakarta umbrella.
 
  What motivate the move to TLP now.

 Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from their main
 task (coding) to answer management issues raised by Jakarta. This raises
the
 question of whether Tomcat is big enough and mature enough to manage these
 issues itself, without the involvement of Jakarta.


Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing the entire
Tomcat community.

I'm looking forward to your involvement on tomcat-dev so that we can all
know that Tomcat has the proper adult supervision.

 For example, in this case, if Tomcat were a TLP, it seems likely (based on
 emails to the thread from Tomcat committers) that this PR release would
have
 been a non-issue.

 Stephen


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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
  Currently, Tomcat developers are having to take time away from
  their main task (coding) to answer management issues raised by
  Jakarta. This raises the question of whether Tomcat is big
  enough and mature enough to manage these issues itself, without
  the involvement of Jakarta.

 Great.  Now this thread has moved from JBoss-bashing to dissing
 the entire Tomcat community.

Where did you see that from what he said?  He correctly noted that moving to
TLP status has certain requirements, but no one has said that Tomcat does
not possess them.  Quite to the contrary from most notes I've read on this
thread.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Davanum Srinivas
Yes, Noel. i have the same feeling that Stephen has:

it seems likely (based on emails to the thread from Tomcat
committers) that this PR release would have been a non-issue. 

So the tomcat committers would be doing it on their own terms. with no
one pushing them. Quote from Mladen's email:

so many Chairmans and Directors with opposite statements

Quote from Costin's email makes me think that they are ready for it:

If tomcat would be a top level project instead of jakarta-tomcat,
most likely Remy would be the PMC chair. Acording to ASF rules, the
PMC chair is the ultimate decision maker for a project.

And i love the quote from Remy:

more code, less politics

So i'd say what is the benchmark for TLP? If the tomcat committers
want it and show the will to do it. Why not?

The only question in my mind is do they want it?

thanks,
dims

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:56:54 -0500, Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dims,
 
 The new TLP would be expected to address the same issues, and to work with
 the PRC and other parts of the ASF, but they'd be more immediately
 associated with them, too.
 
 --- Noel
 
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-- 
Davanum Srinivas - http://webservices.apache.org/~dims/

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RE: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Noel J. Bergman
 Please, lets calm the things down.
 Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
 will still spin tomorrow.

Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.  I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 miles.

--- Noel


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Re: Jakarta Apache Tomcat as a TLP ?

2005-03-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Mar 21, 2005, at 3:51 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Please, lets calm the things down.
Henri will write an email to SD magazine, and the earth
will still spin tomorrow.
Well, actually, if it would pause briefly on Wednesday, that'd be OK.  
I
have to fly east, and would rather not chase the horizon for 3000 
miles.
Yeah, but that would result in some serious damage to the real-estate 
with all the buildings disintegrating and such.

Maybe the cheaper alternative is to get an upgrade to business class?
--- Noel
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Geir Magnusson Jr  +1-203-665-6437
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