Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
-PROPOSITION (1)- * Require all Jakarta products (or subprojects) to file regular reports with the PMC. You mean 'make each subproject work like a TLP' don't you? Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would have to be prepared by a PMC member, ideally one directly

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Ted Husted
-PROPOSITION (1)- * Require all Jakarta products (or subprojects) to file regular reports with the PMC. You mean 'make each subproject work like a TLP' don't you? Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would have to be prepared by a PMC member, ideally one directly

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Ted Husted
- Original message From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:16:26 + Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2) Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 10:48 AM, Ted Husted wrote: - Original message From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:16:26 + Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2) Since

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen McConnell
PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:16:26 + Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2) Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would have to be prepared by a PMC member, ideally one directly involved with subproject. (A likely suspect being the DEV list

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
From: Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 14:16:26 + Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2) Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would have

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen McConnell
] As it ever were (draft 2) Since the PMC cannot delegate its responsibilities, the report would have to be prepared by a PMC member, ideally one directly involved with subproject. (A likely suspect being the DEV list moderator.) Er, doesn't this just emphasize how broken this process is? Not that I

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were (draft 2)

2003-12-25 Thread Ted Husted
[PROPOSAL] As it ever were I've incorporated many of the suggestions made on the list and prepared another draft for community review. -ISSUE- The ASF Board has indicated that it does not believe that the Jakarta PMC, in its present form, is capable of providing oversight of all the subprojects

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-25 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 24, 2003, at 12:11 PM, Costin Manolache wrote: Ted, I think we must focus on what we agree on - it seems nobody is against expanding the PMC to include most committers ( or all active committers who don't decline ). I'm not sure I understand Geir's current position, but I think he still

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-25 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
Exactly - lets not overdo this with too much process. Lets just get people who have genuine interest onto the PMC, covering the project(s) they work on, and then keep growing. geir On Dec 24, 2003, at 2:46 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: Post a list of projects and get PMC people to volunteer to

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Ted Husted
My complaint is this: Our current base of committers were led to believe they have binding votes. We are now told this is not the case. The committers we now have were all elected on the premise that they had binding votes and oversight responsibilities for their codebase. They were in fact

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 24, 2003, at 6:28 AM, Ted Husted wrote: My complaint is this: Our current base of committers were led to believe they have binding votes. We are now told this is not the case. The committers we now have were all elected on the premise that they had binding votes and oversight

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Ted Husted
I apologize for not quoting. I'm experiencing technical difficulties and making do the best I can. I meant what I said. We must make an immediate, good faith effort to correct the false and misleading information in the Jakarta guidelines, and give all committers due notice of their true

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Costin Manolache
Ted, I think we must focus on what we agree on - it seems nobody is against expanding the PMC to include most committers ( or all active committers who don't decline ). I'm not sure I understand Geir's current position, but I think he still agrees we need to include most people. I don't think

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Ted Husted
(Again, sorry about the quoting.) o·ver·sight 1. An unintentional omission or mistake. 2. Watchful care or management; supervision http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oversight The board expects PMCs to exercise (2) so as to avoid (1). :) For a PMC this boils down to issues of

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Henri Yandell
Post a list of projects and get PMC people to volunteer to post reports, chase up CLAs and improve PMC-to-non-PMC ratio, and record who has volunteered. Keep going until all projects are covered by the minimum number, which can be 1 to start with. Hen On Wed, 24 Dec 2003, Ted Husted wrote:

RE: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Danny Angus
As both Roy and Greg have said, if the Jakarta committers truly understood how few rights and privileges they have, they would be demanding both ASF and PMC membership. Few do, so few have. Well I kind of asked for PMC nomination, are you saying that we should, or indeed could, ask for

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-24 Thread Phil Steitz
Ted Husted wrote: (Again, sorry about the quoting.) o·ver·sight 1. An unintentional omission or mistake. 2. Watchful care or management; supervision http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=oversight The board expects PMCs to exercise (2) so as to avoid (1). :) For a PMC this boils down

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-23 Thread Ted Husted
steward The proposal is to expand the role of the moderator, rather than invent an overlapping role with similar responsibilities. If the volunteer is not up to task, then another volunteer can be sought. (Hence, the language about the Chair appointing another volunteer.) The idea is that

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-23 Thread Costin Manolache
Ted Husted wrote: steward The proposal is to expand the role of the moderator, rather than invent an overlapping role with similar responsibilities. If the volunteer is not up to task, then another volunteer can be sought. (Hence, the language about the Chair appointing another volunteer.)

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-23 Thread Ted Husted
Make release managers the default stewards Not every subproject has a clearly defined release manager. In Struts, we are even starting to have multiple people collaborate on the release manager role. The key to oversight is persistence. Since it is not possible for every committee member to

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-23 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 12:10:03 -0500 (Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were) Ted Husted wrote: steward The proposal is to expand the role of the moderator, rather than invent an overlapping role with similar responsibilities. If the volunteer is not up to task, then another volunteer can

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-23 Thread Henri Yandell
On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Ted Husted wrote: Make release managers the default stewards My suggestion: Work out what people on the PMC are members of the PMC for. ie) I consider myself a Taglibs and Commons developer [both umberella projects so not great examples]. List which projects people are

Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
]) On Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:07:26 -0500 (Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] As it ever were) Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: This is what I proposed some weeks ago. I think you would serve the community well if you also posted a summary of pros and cons that we had discussed. On Dec 21, 2003, at 6:14 PM, Ted Husted wrote

[PROPOSAL] As it ever were

2003-12-21 Thread Ted Husted
Re: Proposal to grandfather Active Committers to Jakarta subprojects as PMC Members. As it stands, most Jakarta committers have assumed that they already have the rights, privileges, and responsibilities granted PMC members. (Mainly because it was written that way in the Jakarta bylaws). When all