Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

2003-11-12 Thread Henning Schmiedehausen

On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 16:20, Mark R. Diggory wrote:
 That last thread seemed such a waste of bandwidth. Unfortunately it 
 swallowed a discussion we were trying to start concerning Licensing 
 issues associated with the consideration of using BSD style licensed 
 code in Apache Projects.
 
 To formulate a more solid point people can respond to:
 
 Can BSD licensed code be added to Apache licensed code bases? Can both 
 licenses be maintained? If so can someone direct me to an example of this?


You should read LKML for about six months or so. In this time, a
licensing discussion and a GPL is evil and maybe even a why binary
code is good/bad/don't care discussion as a bonus are due to happen
(The average brain of the net lasts six months).

As far as I can see:

BSD code inclusion in ASF code is ok, no strings attached, but there
should/must (depends on the BSD license) a notice which the original
copyright must be included with the source tree (or even when starting
the resulting program; some quite old BSD licenses required this, this
is why older AIX/HP-UX boxes displayed a plethora of copyright messages
when booting).

BTW: I just re-read this conglomerate of politics, ideology, crude
examples and pseudo-legal speech that calls itself LGPL
(http://www.opensource.org/licenses/lgpl-license.php).

IMHO, JBoss is in deep sh*t using this license:

- JBoss is not a library. But the JBoss Group insists that it is (which
  they seem to do, because they themselves declare JBoss to be one
  (they even link the web site cited above)

- If it is a library, then the whole § 2 applies. This basically means,
  that I can write an J2EE server by simply extending all the classes
  in the JBoss package (but e.g. calling it Foo J2EE Server) and
  putting a jboss binary distribution and a file that says:

  This product uses code from the JBoss application server with the
  appropriate copyright and a link to the JBoss source code repo.

- I can redistribute this in compiled (no source code at all) form
  (§5). 

I'd say that LGPL is for a language like Java (which has no concept of
linking) a pretty bad choice. In fact, I'd even look forward to JBoss
Group trying to prove its claims in court. I'm pretty sure that in the
end, the court will sack their own license and they (and all of their
customers) will suddenly have an unlicensed products. 

And, if JBoss is a library, then all programs running in the container
are suddently derived works. Which brings a whole new meaning to the
concept of linking _AND_ the legal issues of the licensing terms of
these programs!

ObDisc: IANAL, I just play one at late-night drinking contests.

Regards
Henning


-- 
Dipl.-Inf. (Univ.) Henning P. Schmiedehausen  INTERMETA GmbH
[EMAIL PROTECTED]+49 9131 50 654 0   http://www.intermeta.de/

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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

2003-11-11 Thread Mark R. Diggory
That last thread seemed such a waste of bandwidth. Unfortunately it 
swallowed a discussion we were trying to start concerning Licensing 
issues associated with the consideration of using BSD style licensed 
code in Apache Projects.

To formulate a more solid point people can respond to:

Can BSD licensed code be added to Apache licensed code bases? Can both 
licenses be maintained? If so can someone direct me to an example of this?

-Mark

robert burrell donkin wrote:

On 9 Nov 2003, at 22:01, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Mostly, I'm trying to ascertain the best strategies for donations that 
will be arising in the near future from projects that are now 
relicensed using a BSD style license (portions of Colt and RngPack). I 
am working through details with these individuals and organizations to 
legally and ethically provide vehicles for the code from these 
projects to evolve and be included into the math project. This is 
currently through both individual interaction with the authors to get 
them to donate and through re-licensing endeavors.

So to try to form a clearer question. If code is licensed using the 
follow style licenses:

http://www.honeylocust.com/RngPack/rngpack/LICENSE
http://dsd.lbl.gov/~hoschek/colt/license.html
With agreement from the authors ,what is the best approach for 
integrating code under this license into an Apache project?


a very good question. now would be a good time for those folks with 
experience of this issue to take up the batten...

I'm slightly stumped, I see no references to a Licensing listserv 
anywhere in the Apache www site?


i suspect that it's a committer-only list. anyone know for sure?

- robert

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Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

2003-11-09 Thread robert burrell donkin
hi mark

IMHO there are two different issues here.

1. what's the right thing to do legally...

i don't recall any problems with including BSD licensed source 
(providing that the license is followed which probably means adding the 
appropriate credits) but the right place to ask this question is 
licensing at apache.org. you'll need to subscribe first (probably using 
your apache address).

2. what's the right thing to do ethically...

ethics are important for other reasons. being generous with credit 
often helps to stop flamewars before they start. i'd say that the right 
thing to do ethically is to put a note crediting the original author(s) 
below the the apache license.

it's usually possible to satisfy both 1 and 2 with an appropriate 
choice of words.

- robert

On 7 Nov 2003, at 20:38, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Is there any sort of policy on the inclusion of BSD style licensed 
code into an Apache Project outside of relicensing.

As well, any standard set of policies/procedures on if that code is 
donated to a project? I understand that there are procedures for 
donation. But have some questions concerning this:

http://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt

Does supplying this document properly completed constitute a 
relicensing of donated code to Apache?

thanks,
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

2003-11-09 Thread Mark R. Diggory
Mostly, I'm trying to ascertain the best strategies for donations that 
will be arising in the near future from projects that are now relicensed 
using a BSD style license (portions of Colt and RngPack). I am working 
through details with these individuals and organizations to legally and 
ethically provide vehicles for the code from these projects to evolve 
and be included into the math project. This is currently through both 
individual interaction with the authors to get them to donate and 
through re-licensing endeavors.

So to try to form a clearer question. If code is licensed using the 
follow style licenses:

http://www.honeylocust.com/RngPack/rngpack/LICENSE
http://dsd.lbl.gov/~hoschek/colt/license.html
With agreement from the authors ,what is the best approach for 
integrating code under this license into an Apache project?

I'm slightly stumped, I see no references to a Licensing listserv 
anywhere in the Apache www site?

-Mark

robert burrell donkin wrote:
hi mark

IMHO there are two different issues here.

1. what's the right thing to do legally...

i don't recall any problems with including BSD licensed source 
(providing that the license is followed which probably means adding the 
appropriate credits) but the right place to ask this question is 
licensing at apache.org. you'll need to subscribe first (probably using 
your apache address).

2. what's the right thing to do ethically...

ethics are important for other reasons. being generous with credit often 
helps to stop flamewars before they start. i'd say that the right thing 
to do ethically is to put a note crediting the original author(s) below 
the the apache license.

it's usually possible to satisfy both 1 and 2 with an appropriate choice 
of words.

- robert

On 7 Nov 2003, at 20:38, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Is there any sort of policy on the inclusion of BSD style licensed 
code into an Apache Project outside of relicensing.

As well, any standard set of policies/procedures on if that code is 
donated to a project? I understand that there are procedures for 
donation. But have some questions concerning this:

http://www.apache.org/licenses/software-grant.txt

Does supplying this document properly completed constitute a 
relicensing of donated code to Apache?

thanks,
--
Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://osprey.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Mark Diggory
Software Developer
Harvard MIT Data Center
http://www.hmdc.harvard.edu
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Re: BSD style code and licensing issues

2003-11-09 Thread robert burrell donkin
On 9 Nov 2003, at 22:01, Mark R. Diggory wrote:

Mostly, I'm trying to ascertain the best strategies for donations that 
will be arising in the near future from projects that are now 
relicensed using a BSD style license (portions of Colt and RngPack). I 
am working through details with these individuals and organizations to 
legally and ethically provide vehicles for the code from these 
projects to evolve and be included into the math project. This is 
currently through both individual interaction with the authors to get 
them to donate and through re-licensing endeavors.

So to try to form a clearer question. If code is licensed using the 
follow style licenses:

http://www.honeylocust.com/RngPack/rngpack/LICENSE
http://dsd.lbl.gov/~hoschek/colt/license.html
With agreement from the authors ,what is the best approach for 
integrating code under this license into an Apache project?
a very good question. now would be a good time for those folks with 
experience of this issue to take up the batten...

I'm slightly stumped, I see no references to a Licensing listserv 
anywhere in the Apache www site?
i suspect that it's a committer-only list. anyone know for sure?

- robert

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