Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
On Tuesday, November 11, 2003, at 01:25 PM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I think that this is the right list, very few people are intrested about the incubator. This is about ASF reputation. (It is also about the OSS reputation, including BSD, Linux, CodeHus, etc.) Due to this Stein mistake OSS could be view as very lowest form. Makes me think ... hmm, did Linux developers refactor SCO code? Shame. I would like to know... does ASF claim that if they refactor offending code one by one, they feel they are clean? or If the code was imported and beeing refactored, that that is a probelm. Vic : I didn't write any of the above. Please try and make clear your attributions especially when what you are saying is inflammatory and in the wrong forum. The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other appropriate action is taken. I have been thinking about it, I do not think removing the offeding code is appropriate or sufficient. If proven, I think offending devlopers, new or old should be baned from ASF (and other OSS projects) for a few years. The project should be parked. Let it live on SF, why shield it (becuase now ASF has to use their lawyers/resources) ASF should publicly applogize, and as a sign of friendship with OSS, do something to help jBoss, such as help with J2EE certification, or help with code or something. Did I say that Stein should be removed, as the person out of all the OSS projects out there, did most to ruin the high reputation, trough negligence or some other reason. I feel dirty using Apache Struts today becuase of this mess. I already remvoed ASF licnese from basicPortal.sf.net when this was originaly done and uses a commons license or something like that. However, you must allow the alleged violations to be vetted - just as you wouldn't take the ASF's word that all was fine w/o explanation, you shouldn't take JBoss claim of violation at face value either. http://theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=22337#101208 Above says: The version 1.1 and 1.2 do contain an interface with methods hinting to the 3 maps design Marc is talking about. This is fine proof for me. I think some sort of joint commission should be set up, of people with fine reputation, to report in a certain timeframe as to what happened. Also a sepreare group should find out what to do about it. This is a crissis as big as any, IMO. To the people that are siting on the sidelines: Do something. It does not have to be public. It is when silent majority sits on the hands, and allows immoral things to happen that the society loses. This is about sofware, not about lawyers. I will try to make this last message on the topic of ethics, its up to the people sitting on the hands to see this is as a problem and do something. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other appropriate action is taken. GREAT!!! That is 99% of what I wanted to hear. I hope others are happy with this as well. I'm quite sure that you've been told this before. d. *** The information in this e-mail is confidential and for use by the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient) please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not accept any responsibility for changes made to this message after it was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and views of The Student Loans Company Limited. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. ** - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I think that this is the right list, very few people are intrested about the incubator. This is about ASF reputation. (It is also about the OSS reputation, including BSD, Linux, CodeHus, etc.) Due to this Stein mistake OSS could be view as very lowest form. Makes me think ... hmm, did Linux developers refactor SCO code? Shame. I would like to know... does ASF claim that if they refactor offending code one by one, they feel they are clean? or If the code was imported and beeing refactored, that that is a probelm. The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other appropriate action is taken. I have been thinking about it, I do not think removing the offeding code is appropriate or sufficient. If proven, I think offending devlopers, new or old should be baned from ASF (and other OSS projects) for a few years. The project should be parked. Let it live on SF, why shield it (becuase now ASF has to use their lawyers/resources) ASF should publicly applogize, and as a sign of friendship with OSS, do something to help jBoss, such as help with J2EE certification, or help with code or something. Did I say that Stein should be removed, as the person out of all the OSS projects out there, did most to ruin the high reputation, trough negligence or some other reason. I feel dirty using Apache Struts today becuase of this mess. I already remvoed ASF licnese from basicPortal.sf.net when this was originaly done and uses a commons license or something like that. However, you must allow the alleged violations to be vetted - just as you wouldn't take the ASF's word that all was fine w/o explanation, you shouldn't take JBoss claim of violation at face value either. http://theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=22337#101208 Above says: The version 1.1 and 1.2 do contain an interface with methods hinting to the 3 maps design Marc is talking about. This is fine proof for me. I think some sort of joint commission should be set up, of people with fine reputation, to report in a certain timeframe as to what happened. Also a sepreare group should find out what to do about it. This is a crissis as big as any, IMO. To the people that are siting on the sidelines: Do something. It does not have to be public. It is when silent majority sits on the hands, and allows immoral things to happen that the society loses. This is about sofware, not about lawyers. I will try to make this last message on the topic of ethics, its up to the people sitting on the hands to see this is as a problem and do something. .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
On Nov 11, 2003, at 1:25 PM, Vic Cekvenich wrote: ASF should publicly applogize, and as a sign of friendship with OSS, do something to help jBoss, such as help with J2EE certification, or help with code or something. This statement jumped out at me like a tiger. The suspicious might read the above and be saying to themselves Aha... now I understand where Vic's going with this. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003, Vic Cekvenich wrote: I think that this is the right list, very few people are intrested about the incubator. This is about ASF reputation. (It is also about the OSS reputation, including BSD, Linux, CodeHus, etc.) Why not mail the httpd list then? Or the Ant list? They are as involved. Due to this Stein mistake OSS could be view as very lowest form. Makes me think ... hmm, did Linux developers refactor SCO code? Shame. I would like to know... does ASF claim that if they refactor offending code one by one, they feel they are clean? or If the code was imported and beeing refactored, that that is a probelm. Ah. So you want to mail the board for an official response? [EMAIL PROTECTED] is probably the correct place for such an official response. The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other appropriate action is taken. I have been thinking about it, I do not think removing the offeding code is appropriate or sufficient. This is not the forum for the technicalities of that. No one here is on this list as a committer to Geronimo. Geronimo is not a part of Jakarta. I feel dirty using Apache Struts today becuase of this mess. I already remvoed ASF licnese from basicPortal.sf.net when this was originaly done and uses a commons license or something like that. It is illegal for you to use the ASF licence for basicportal.sf.net anyway. Technically I'm not even sure you can legally remove the ASF licence if you have not followed the proper procedure to do so [ie) your community of developers have okayed it], however I doubt the ASF would ever point that out as the mistake was to ASF licence it in the first place. To the people that are siting on the sidelines: Do something. It does not have to be public. So far I've yet to feel that ASF have violated anything ethically. The Elba concept is a cute yet tricky solution to continuous integration. The general level of stupidity shown on TSS when they announced Geronimo suggested that the people complaining couldn't even read the basic plan that was laid out and the level of idiocy shown over 'why can't JBoss LLC get a free certification so they can compete with BEA and IBM' from Sun is also hard to understand. This is where we get into the question of whether the ASF have licenced under an ASF licence, and not the LGPL licence of Elba, a piece of code that is not licensable. If so, then they have legally broken a barrier. Use of code is tricky, what if they have merely copied a design. I've not seen anything in terms of open source test cases to suggest how open open-source designs are. This is about sofware, not about lawyers. You've made it morals vs law. I see no broken morals, and an accusation of broken law. I will try to make this last message on the topic of ethics, its up to the people sitting on the hands to see this is as a problem and do something. Quit bitching at the people on the sidelines then. This mail list is the sidelines. Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
Vic Cekvenich wrote: snip I have been thinking about it, I do not think removing the offeding code is appropriate or sufficient. If proven, I think offending devlopers, new or old should be baned from ASF (and other OSS projects) for a few years. The project should be parked. Let it live on SF, why shield it (becuase now ASF has to use their lawyers/resources) ASF should publicly applogize, and as a sign of friendship with OSS, do something to help jBoss, such as help with J2EE certification, or help with code or something. Did I say that Stein should be removed, as the person out of all the OSS projects out there, did most to ruin the high reputation, trough negligence or some other reason. I feel dirty using Apache Struts today becuase of this mess. I already remvoed ASF licnese from basicPortal.sf.net when this was originaly done and uses a commons license or something like that. snip Geezz relax Vic, we are talking about software here. It's no life and death matter. No one is going to lose their life over this. It's not like a U.S. gov. official leaking the name of a CIA operative to the public. Give me a break, it sounds like this is going to hit you personally in the pocketbook, I can not understand why you are so passionate about this. Why are you? Hummm could the real reason be that you are trying to pull a M$ and stifle any compentition with JBoss?? What is your real issue? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
Scott Tavares wrote: Geezz relax Vic, . I can not understand why you are so passionate about this. Sincerely I think this is bad for open source and for sofware, which is where I do make a living. This is great for comercail vendors, proving that open source are... less ethical. What does it mean to be an open source supporter now, to a client? (OK, I should take the point that I need to let go of Don Quihote) I think lawyers have a bad reputation, and I do not want my profesion, sofware engineers to have that reputation. Henri Yandel wrote: This is where we get into the question of whether the ASF have licenced under an ASF licence, and not the LGPL licence of Elba, a piece of code that is not licensable. If so, then they have legally broken a barrier. Use of code is tricky, what if they have merely copied a design. I've not seen anything in terms of open source test cases to suggest how open open-source designs are. The apprent position of ASF is that.. well it's same design but we have (former jBoss developers changing the implementation over time. In esence, in music, same notes, but diferent performance ( same musicians.) You don't see how a PHB might hesiteate to hire an OSS suporter? Can somone downlaod ResinEE (for example :-) source, and refactor and now they own it? Or take OrionServer and decompile and refactor, and now they own it? Do ... or don't do what you want. I am done with it. .V ps: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=106858581404361w=2 (I can see the water mill now, now... it's a Dragon) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
Dude get a life and stop wining, we have better things to do, than read this shit. One thing is to have an opinion, the other thing is listening when people are actually saying you are wining and complaining at the worng place. LISTEN! Mvgr, Martin On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 23:37, Vic Cekvenich wrote: Scott Tavares wrote: Geezz relax Vic, . I can not understand why you are so passionate about this. Sincerely I think this is bad for open source and for sofware, which is where I do make a living. This is great for comercail vendors, proving that open source are... less ethical. What does it mean to be an open source supporter now, to a client? (OK, I should take the point that I need to let go of Don Quihote) I think lawyers have a bad reputation, and I do not want my profesion, sofware engineers to have that reputation. Henri Yandel wrote: This is where we get into the question of whether the ASF have licenced under an ASF licence, and not the LGPL licence of Elba, a piece of code that is not licensable. If so, then they have legally broken a barrier. Use of code is tricky, what if they have merely copied a design. I've not seen anything in terms of open source test cases to suggest how open open-source designs are. The apprent position of ASF is that.. well it's same design but we have (former jBoss developers changing the implementation over time. In esence, in music, same notes, but diferent performance ( same musicians.) You don't see how a PHB might hesiteate to hire an OSS suporter? Can somone downlaod ResinEE (for example :-) source, and refactor and now they own it? Or take OrionServer and decompile and refactor, and now they own it? Do ... or don't do what you want. I am done with it. .V ps: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=106858581404361w=2 (I can see the water mill now, now... it's a Dragon) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] mvdb.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
+1000 --- Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dude get a life and stop wining, we have better things to do, than read this shit. One thing is to have an opinion, the other thing is listening when people are actually saying you are wining and complaining at the worng place. LISTEN! Mvgr, Martin On Tue, 2003-11-11 at 23:37, Vic Cekvenich wrote: Scott Tavares wrote: Geezz relax Vic, . I can not understand why you are so passionate about this. Sincerely I think this is bad for open source and for sofware, which is where I do make a living. This is great for comercail vendors, proving that open source are... less ethical. What does it mean to be an open source supporter now, to a client? (OK, I should take the point that I need to let go of Don Quihote) I think lawyers have a bad reputation, and I do not want my profesion, sofware engineers to have that reputation. Henri Yandel wrote: This is where we get into the question of whether the ASF have licenced under an ASF licence, and not the LGPL licence of Elba, a piece of code that is not licensable. If so, then they have legally broken a barrier. Use of code is tricky, what if they have merely copied a design. I've not seen anything in terms of open source test cases to suggest how open open-source designs are. The apprent position of ASF is that.. well it's same design but we have (former jBoss developers changing the implementation over time. In esence, in music, same notes, but diferent performance ( same musicians.) You don't see how a PHB might hesiteate to hire an OSS suporter? Can somone downlaod ResinEE (for example :-) source, and refactor and now they own it? Or take OrionServer and decompile and refactor, and now they own it? Do ... or don't do what you want. I am done with it. .V ps: http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=106858581404361w=2 (I can see the water mill now, now... it's a Dragon) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] mvdb.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
we are talking about software here. It's no life and death matter. No one is going to lose their life over this. It's not like a U.S. gov. official leaking the name of a CIA operative to the public. what that mean :s _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
On Wed, 2003-11-12 at 00:20, mohammad nabil wrote: we are talking about software here. It's no life and death matter. No one is going to lose their life over this. It's not like a U.S. gov. official leaking the name of a CIA operative to the public. what that mean :s http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1003/102703gsn1.htm -- jaaron http://jadetower.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
I repeat: http://theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=22337#101159 Geir, are you supporting his actions, the ethics in here, denying what that developer is saying, ie: that is not his code? I know my code when I see it. What part are you supporting, all of it? -Stein is the one that railroaded this project on the lists, a chairman. It is easy to trace messages that lead us to this. -Durign his rule, ASF brand was embarased. What does it mean, ASF developer now? -Using ASF funds for this is a shame and a waste. I woud like for my profession to be ethical, the people that steal should not be in here amongs us, but where other people that steal are. What if a consultant you hire steals? He can resign and get some nice awardor, be voted out, together with other people the think stealing is OK. ASF money/resources is better spent putting people in Jail that do this to any other OSS project, and making sure they can't ever work in this industry. Like lets say in China, they get the Coca-Cola recepie, and then they start selling Red-Cola... but it tastes the same beacuse it has the same recepie? Is this OK? You are not going to say, well lets see what they can legaly prove and what the lawyers say and then lets some time pass. Ethics! No need to go find montivation that got us here, let's just go back to before Geroniomo. Time in Las Vegas can be better spent. No need to play games. .V Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (and I call on Greg Stein to stay put...) .V - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
On Monday, November 10, 2003, at 05:00 PM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:
I repeat:
http://theserverside.com/home/thread.jsp?thread_id=22337#101159
Geir, are you supporting his actions, the ethics in here, denying what
that developer is saying, ie: that is not his code? I know my code
when I see it. What part are you supporting, all of it?
Vic - take a deep breath.
The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will
take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are
violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other
appropriate action is taken.
However, you must allow the alleged violations to be vetted - just as
you wouldn't take the ASF's word that all was fine w/o explanation, you
shouldn't take JBoss claim of violation at face value either. Examine
the code - look for yourself. Do you really think that the Geronimo
developers would think they could steal JBoss code and get away with
it? Do you think that studly contributors to Geronimo need to steal
such visionary innovations like :
public boolean getStatus() {
return status;
}
(or whatever the class field name is...)
Many of the claims by JBoss appear to me to be specious. Deriving a
class from log4j? The example given by JBoss is a *log4j example* that
both groups used as a basis for their logger. (Hey, Ceki! Can we have
trace???) Using 'Interceptor' for the name of a class that's an
interceptor? Using IDEA-generated getters/setters for POJO fields?
It's hard to imagine that any of this stuff will stand up to rational
scrutiny.
-Stein is the one that railroaded this project on the lists, a
chairman. It is easy to trace messages that lead us to this.
He didn't railroad anything. Many people support it, and much
activity and work has gone into it.
-Durign his rule, ASF brand was embarased. What does it mean, ASF
developer now?
How?
-Using ASF funds for this is a shame and a waste.
What funds?
I woud like for my profession to be ethical, the people that steal
should not be in here amongs us, but where other people that steal
are. What if a consultant you hire steals?
He can resign and get some nice awardor, be voted out, together with
other people the think stealing is OK. ASF money/resources is better
spent putting people in Jail that do this to any other OSS project,
and making sure they can't ever work in this industry.
Like lets say in China, they get the Coca-Cola recepie, and then they
start selling Red-Cola... but it tastes the same beacuse it has the
same recepie? Is this OK? You are not going to say, well lets see what
they can legaly prove and what the lawyers say and then lets some time
pass.
Ethics!
No need to go find montivation that got us here, let's just go back to
before Geroniomo. Time in Las Vegas can be better spent. No need to
play games.
.V
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
(and I call on Greg Stein to stay put...)
.V
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Re: Call on Stein to resign over Gernimo
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
The ASF treats the allegations of code copying very seriously, and will
take what actions are necessary to ensure that no IP rights are
violated, any offending code, if found, is removed, and any other
appropriate action is taken.
GREAT!!! That is 99% of what I wanted to hear. I hope others are happy
with this as well.
However, you must allow the alleged violations to be vetted - just as
you wouldn't take the ASF's word that all was fine w/o explanation, you
shouldn't take JBoss claim of violation at face value either.
GOOD! Of course, I like to jump ahead.
Examine
the code - look for yourself. Do you really think that the Geronimo
developers would think they could steal JBoss code and get away with
it?
I do not know those guys, they are all new developers, they are not old
ASF, but new.
Do you think that studly contributors to Geronimo need to steal
such visionary innovations like :
public boolean getStatus() {
return status;
}
I did not understand why they would mention anything like that, that is
not design. It's silly.
But is also silly to say.. and what else you want me to remove?
(or whatever the class field name is...)
Many of the claims by JBoss appear to me to be specious. Deriving a
class from log4j? The example given by JBoss is a *log4j example* that
both groups used as a basis for their logger. (Hey, Ceki! Can we have
trace???) Using 'Interceptor' for the name of a class that's an
interceptor? Using IDEA-generated getters/setters for POJO fields?
That is silly, but for all I know it's some legalize. Where are you
going to find a jurry to talk about AOP design. Or same design, just a
variation on implementation (also stealing IMO)
It's hard to imagine that any of this stuff will stand up to rational
scrutiny.
These are old jBoss developers, not old ASF developers.
Now I did not consider, that jBoss would just claim teft via a lawyer,
for no reason.
-Stein is the one that railroaded this project on the lists, a
chairman. It is easy to trace messages that lead us to this.
He didn't railroad anything. Many people support it, and much
activity and work has gone into it.
All of it after the chairman started the ball. All kind of steps were
done out of order, in a rush.
-Durign his rule, ASF brand was embarased. What does it mean, ASF
developer now?
How?
Ethics are embarasing. It does not appear right. One day, all this code
just shows up at ASF doorstep, out of where? That was quick, quick
coincidence timing.
At the time, I sent an e-mail, let it live on sf.net for a while.
If not from jBoss, where did the code come from? I know, it was
exaplained... via Magic.
If I use Apache Struts now, does this mean that... maybe this code is
stolen? PHBs!
-Using ASF funds for this is a shame and a waste.
What funds?
Lawyers! ? Software engineers should use ethics, high ethics. Why not
just resolve it that way? Why not move geronimo to sf.net, while this
refactoring happens?
I am not going to itemze what Bill Burke said.
Just park the code for a while, it appears right. There is no down side.
In a clean room, even BIOS can be opened.
But, all of these guys are non ASF people. Or educate me, is there
active comitters on Geronimo that are ASF oldtimers.
The point is, now ASF is in the middle of something that was very
predictable and easily avoidable.
And since we rushed in, ... lets go the same way out, head proposer out
first.
But I am fine with due diligence! As long as people involved are moved
arround a bit, and incubator procedure be followed.
.V
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