Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
 It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
 because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
 seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
 thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

mickysoft ? Hmmm ... 

The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the 
steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot 
to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.

Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an 
open platform but wont be because it is not.

 Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
 no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
 is a bit premature don't you think?

Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both 
already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of 
other parts of these projects aswell.  There is also external ports of other 
projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I 
am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.

I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements 
in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs. 
However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other 
opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would 
definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also 
do so.

Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really 
depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.

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Cheers,

Pete

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
-- Voltaire

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Micael Padraig Og mac Grene

Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code 
than Sun Microsystems?  Hmmm?  Guess I must have missed the banana boat on 
this one.

I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with 
their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more 
restrictive.  Yah, that's the ticket.  Why don't we get a dialogue going on 
why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem 
rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter, 
if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.

Micael

At 07:12 PM 2/25/02 +1100, you wrote:
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
  It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
  because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
  seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
  thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

mickysoft ? Hmmm ...

The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the
steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot
to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.

Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an
open platform but wont be because it is not.

  Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
  no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
  is a bit premature don't you think?

Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both
already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of
other parts of these projects aswell.  There is also external ports of other
projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I
am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.

I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements
in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs.
However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other
opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would
definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also
do so.

Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really
depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.

--
Cheers,

Pete

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
 -- Voltaire

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Peter Donald

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
 Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code
 than Sun Microsystems?  

err ... you trolling ? guess so.

 I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with
 their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more
 restrictive. 

actually the C# language is less restrictive. The PMC head of jakarta 
actually sits as a spec lead (or chair or whatever the ECMA calls it) on one 
of the standardization groups.

Compare this to the Java language which can not be reimplemented outside of 
sun legally. Fun eh?

Of course no need to lets facts get in the way pof a good religion.

 Why don't we get a dialogue going on
 why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem

a few people have tried that and look where it got. 

 rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter,
 if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.

intelligent argument. I think you left out phrases like Microshaft or 
Micro$loth or whatever it is you kiddies use these days. 

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Pete

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
group!

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
 Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That 
 amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
 
 At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
 James Duncan Davidson wrote:
  
   On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
  
   Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
   like this about June of 2002.
 
 uh, I take this as a compliment :)
 
   sigh
  
   You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
   worth fighting all the battles at once.
 
 Wise words, brother, wise words.
 
 But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
 
 Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
 avoid all this.
 
 --
 Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
 
 
 
 
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread Micael Padraig Og mac Grene

Thanx, Andy.  There have been such rumours! ;-)

At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
group!

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
  Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
  amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
 
  At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
  James Duncan Davidson wrote:
   
On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
 Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
 java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
   
Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying 
 something
like this about June of 2002.
  
  uh, I take this as a compliment :)
  
sigh
   
You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes 
 it's not
worth fighting all the battles at once.
  
  Wise words, brother, wise words.
  
  But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
  
  Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
  avoid all this.
  
  --
  Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
 able to give birth to a dancing star.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
  
  
  
  
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
 format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
 - fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread acoliver

Darn...and I was saving that one for April 1 :-)

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:43:05 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote.
Thanx, Andy.  There have been such rumours! ;-)

At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
group!

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
  Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
  amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
 
  At 10:28 AM 2/24/02  0100, you wrote:
  James Duncan Davidson wrote:
   
On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI
implementation, a
 Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
 java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
   
Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying 
 something
like this about June of 2002.
  
  uh, I take this as a compliment :)
  
sigh
   
You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes 
 it's not
worth fighting all the battles at once.
  
  Wise words, brother, wise words.
  
  But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
  
  Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day
to
  avoid all this.
  
  --
  Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
 able to give birth to a dancing star.
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
  
  
  
  
  --
  To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
 format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
 - fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread James Duncan Davidson

On 2/24/02 01:28, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/

I admit that I have fear and loathing of the .NET moniker and all that
Microsoft is associating it with. But as far as the CLI and the class
libraries, well, quite frankly they don't suck. They're not great, I prefer
Java, but they don't suck.

Java will still be around for a long time no matter what happens. It's been
too important an event in software engineering to become dead. But the
licensing issues are going to have a non trivial effect on what happens.

 Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
 avoid all this.

Heh. :) 

.:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-25 Thread James Duncan Davidson

On 2/24/02 13:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
 amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?

Troll.

.:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi

James Duncan Davidson wrote:
 
 On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
  Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
  java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
 
 Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
 like this about June of 2002.

uh, I take this as a compliment :)

 sigh
 
 You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
 worth fighting all the battles at once.

Wise words, brother, wise words.

But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/

Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
avoid all this.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

I keep telling you:

http://www.digitalmars.com/d/

Get this guy to release it APL and then we can get up and go!

:-)

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 04:28, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
 James Duncan Davidson wrote:
  
  On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
   Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
   java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
  
  Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
  like this about June of 2002.
 
 uh, I take this as a compliment :)
 
  sigh
  
  You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
  worth fighting all the battles at once.
 
 Wise words, brother, wise words.
 
 But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
 
 Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
 avoid all this.
 
 -- 
 Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
   able to give birth to a dancing star.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
 
 
 
 
 --
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Craig R. McClanahan



On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:


 Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
 avoid all this.


I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
run them on Cocoon?  Rats ...

:-)


Craig


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

You laugh...

IT HAS BEEN PROPOSED!!!

http://www.mail-archive.com/cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org/msg10094.html

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 15:20, Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
 
 
 On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
 
 
  Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
  avoid all this.
 
 
 I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and
 run them on Cocoon?  Rats ...
 
 :-)
 
 
 Craig
 
 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Micael Padraig Og mac Grene

Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That 
amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?

At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
James Duncan Davidson wrote:
 
  On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
   Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
   java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
 
  Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
  like this about June of 2002.

uh, I take this as a compliment :)

  sigh
 
  You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
  worth fighting all the battles at once.

Wise words, brother, wise words.

But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/

Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
avoid all this.

--
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
   able to give birth to a dancing star.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-24 Thread Colin Chalmers

To build on what Micael said,

It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no
bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a
bit premature don't you think?

/Colin


 Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
 amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?

 At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
 James Duncan Davidson wrote:
  
   On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
  
   Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying
something
   like this about June of 2002.
 
 uh, I take this as a compliment :)
 
   sigh
  
   You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's
not
   worth fighting all the battles at once.
 
 Wise words, brother, wise words.
 
 But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
 
 Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
 avoid all this.
 
 --
 Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
able to give birth to a dancing star.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
 
 
 
 
 --
 To unsubscribe, e-mail:   mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-23 Thread James Duncan Davidson

On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
 Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
 java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
like this about June of 2002.

sigh

You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
worth fighting all the battles at once.

.:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-06 Thread Santiago Gala

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:

on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

(snip)


They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.

So they want to earn money on the other two sides: 

 big - enterprise (J2EE) 


possible.  They're going about it the wrong way (still).

 small - embedded (J2ME)


pipe dream.  If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded
means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang
win.

No. Bytecodes + built-in security (sandboxes, etc.) make java a 
substantial win for Telephone operators. C# is not yet prepared for 
taking this market. Solutions like ActiveX are a mess to deploy and 
suffer from logistic (deploy for a hundred hardware variants), 
reliability (crashes in user C/C++ code) and big security problems (bad 
security model). The telephones that we will see in the next couple of 
years will use java. And this is a substantial market (in the thousands 
of millions units) where Sun wants to take their license for every 
telephone sold, and sell at the same time their java hardware and 
expertise (read J2EE) in the server side to the operators and service 
providers.

  If it stays small, Palm and KR win.  Sun has to bet on something
in between or start making Java native chips again..  Its a pipe dream
of a business plan.

I think it is actually working well for Sun, from what I see in their 
relation with big mobile operators and handset makers. Whether Sun will 
survive to a mature multiplatform C# solution with the ability to run 
java applets (midlets...) is another thing. Don't forget that Microsoft 
are better when they arrive second to the market (see IBM MS-DOS, 
Digital Research solution vs Windows, Lotus/Excel, WordPerfect/Word, 
dBase/SQL Server,...)


why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
fat machines and silicon chips).

don't forget that they have a good sales channel to big corporations 
like banks, phone operators, utility companies,... Quite often better 
than the one MS has.


Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
mail list? yeah, sure.

Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.

Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
(after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
doing with .NET)

You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
side of things.

Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
software to .NET and blah blah blah.


perhaps.

I feel like I'm legacy myself. I feel lazy about switching to C# stuff. 
I feel older every day that passes ;)


Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to mak

e java solid.


probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests
and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's
interests, if that changes so does Sun).

I agree that we have been used. We are used every day. But I feel happy 
overall with my java experience. Programming in java is funny (like it 
was in the Smalltalk days, even with some lisps). Programming against 
current MS APIs is *not* fun.

I don't feel abused by the Sun people WRT java. From the beginning I saw 
Sun as I see them now. Even if I regret that they do not Open Source 
java, the market will never be the same after their (wise) move back then.


Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
fast.

My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.


Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend.  If
maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an
objective for Mono then it will fail.  The 3000 lb gorilla will never
loose control of its illegitimate child.  

Regarding C#.  I still think I'd rather learn D www.digitalmars.com/d

I've seen they still have pointers. I will not go there until they drop 
them. ;)

WRT crossplatform stuff, time is coming when we will impose *our* laws. 
With linux becoming a major player in the OS level (and I bet it will be 
a player in the desktop market real soon), crossplatform is beginning to 
be their problem, rather than ours. As OpenSource works in public, with 
no hidden 

Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-06 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
*if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair
chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice
license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
  
   BUT THERE WON'T BE!
 
  you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people
  envy

 I don't respond to personal attacks.

If you think thats a personal attack then ...

  the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away
  years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the
  opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).

 Right, but what I mean is this:  If you attempt to maintain
 compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
 and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
 from COM and .NET etc.

Have you actually looked at the language?

  er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is
  enough to make it one of the best releases yet.

 So the IO stuff made it?  I heard it was pushed to 1.5!  I've been
 running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
 it.  I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
 I know and what was pushed back etc. 

Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is 
not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically 
support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be 
present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
 Don't take life too seriously -- 
  you'll never get out of it alive.
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-06 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

snip/

 
 Become a strategist. There will always a need for people telling people 
 what they should do next. At least for people that does not read these 
 lists. ;)
 

Where do I sign?  :-)  I'm always happy telling people what they should
do next ;-).

-Andy

-- 
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
 
  Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
  proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
  standardized?
 
  Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
  about Java?

 Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
 to get back at SUN?  Heck no.

You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head 
on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent 
change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are 
starting to look interesting.

Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java 
(much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C 
based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize 
bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).

*if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of 
people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT 
that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. 

I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but 
everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java 
advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. 
Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find 
interesting. 

If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java 
still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it 
would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - 
still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly 
fall down in that area. 

It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM 
people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux 
peeps then  who knows ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by
definition, half of them are even dumber than that!
J.R. Bob Dobbs

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Arnaud Vandyck

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Frankly Sun should  learn from IBM model and  start to sell services
 instead of just software.

They already sell services :)

-- Arnaud, STE-Formations Informatiques, fapse, ULg, .BE

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Ted Husted

+1

Kevin A. Burton wrote:
   Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
   to get back at SUN?  Heck no.
 
 ... hm.. this discussion could be on the list... buy anyway.



-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Java Web Development with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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AW: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Juergen Fey

Hi,

Java proves to be a reliable technology but some political questions are
still
open and some others  - not all - are getting answered in the wrong
direction.

There could be a chance to discuss these things during the JavaOne next
month.
Perhaps at Jon`s new place which is not too far away from the Moscone
center?


gruesse

Juergen Fey

http://www.xerpent.com
Publishingsysteme*Java*Perl*VB*Apache*Servlets*Linux*WindowsXY
Laerchenweg 8 D-85617 Assling  Germany
fon:+49-8092-83063 fax: +49-8092-83064[EMAIL PROTECTED]

PGP-Key: http://www.jfey.com/tuttle/housek/jf.asc


don`t drive when you`re dead, tom waits
   Life is not fair, but root password helps!

-Ursprungliche Nachricht-
Von: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Im Auftrag
von Kevin A. Burton
Gesendet: Montag, 4. Februar 2002 22:58
An: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Betreff: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Sorry for the X-post.

I just created a new mailing list:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You can sign up here:

http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead

...

Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?

Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
proprietary
even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?

Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about
Java?

Do you *hate* the JCP?

Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM
and
bloating it beyond belief?

Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?

Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?

...

I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.

Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.

Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
site.

Kevin

- --
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!
- Emiliano Zapata

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Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt

iD8DBQE8XwPpAwM6xb2dfE0RAs5MAKCjopim62GAoeZSKxcPK8l5+VkJTwCbBVoC
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
   Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
  
   Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
   proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
   standardized?
  
   Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
   about Java?
 
  Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
  to get back at SUN?  Heck no.
 
 You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head 
 on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent 
 change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are 
 starting to look interesting.
 

Can I run it on Linux?  Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
Linux. 

 Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java 
 (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C 
 based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize 
 bytecode, crapola linking model, etc).
 

True, but if past predictors continue to hold, there will never be a
version that runs reliably on another platform.  And windows is a very
crappy platform.  (I can do Solaris, UNIX, I prefer Linux but I can cope
with other good OSes)

 *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of 
 people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT 
 that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. 
 

BUT THERE WON'T BE!  That's the kicker.  If we're just talking about
Java alternatives, I'm falling more in love (from a distance) with the
D language.  It needs bytecode, etc (but I think the platform should
evolve in the language perhaps but separately from it)

 I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but 
 everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java 
 advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. 
 Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find 
 interesting. 
 

Microsoft people will of course switch to it.  People who need serious
servers will need something that runs on UNIX.  

 If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java 
 still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it 
 would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - 
 still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly 
 fall down in that area. 
 

So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
time its taken.  Mostly candy no meat.  

 It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM 
 people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux 
 peeps then  who knows ;)
 

I've never had much luck with IBM's JDKs.  I seem to be the guy who
always runs into some horrible bug.

-Andy

 -- 
 Cheers,
 
 Pete
 
 You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by
 definition, half of them are even dumber than that!
   J.R. Bob Dobbs
 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?

 Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
 proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
 standardized?

 Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic
 about Java?

 Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
 to get back at SUN?  Heck no.

 You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head
 on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent
 change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are
 starting to look interesting.

 Can I run it on Linux?  Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
 Linux.

Peter is correct.  A few links (you can see my name in the first one):

   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/MEMENTO/TC39-G3.HTM
   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/NEWS/NEWS.HTM
   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp
   http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLIFAQ.asp

For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I
have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape
shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of
Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment).

Note: there are some people who view open source implementations of .Net as
controversial as, say, open source implementations of popular MS file
formats, for pretty much the same reasons.

For my part, I have no interest in sticking it to Sun.  Or to Microsoft
for that matter.  I simply want to see more of us working together.  That's
why I integrated PHP and Java.  That's why I created Gump.  That's why I
participate in these standards.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread acoliver



Peter is correct.  A few links (you can see my name in the first one):

   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/MEMENTO/TC39-G3.HTM
   http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/NEWS/NEWS.HTM
   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp
   

I was aware of this.  I saw your mugshots and bios remember ;-)

http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLIFAQ.asp

For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I
have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape
shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of
Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment).


ME TOO!! (well not JavaOne but other smaller more affordable events)

Note: there are some people who view open source implementations of .Net as
controversial as, say, open source implementations of popular MS file
formats, for pretty much the same reasons.


*shrug* I have no objection to an open source impl. of .NET.  Hell if C#
turns out to be a decent language and ACTUALLY ran WELL on other platforms
I'd have not objection to it.  I'm convinced POI can crack open all of the
major Office file formats and do so workably.  If I wasn't I'd not be
involved in it.  I'm simply not convinced that you'll be able to make C#
more than it is (a proprietary answer to Java).  Moreover, POI is an
intellectual excercise.  We're implementing a convoluted binary structure
purely in a language with convoluted IO APIs.  What could be more
intellectually challenging than that?

For my part, I have no interest in sticking it to Sun.  Or to Microsoft
for that matter.  I simply want to see more of us working together.  That's
why I integrated PHP and Java.  That's why I created Gump.  That's why I
participate in these standards.


To be clear.  What I meant was, C# on WINDOWS -- strongheck/strong no. 
I don't want to use windows.  So far to be honest C# has failed to impress
me.  From what I've read, if I were to devote my time to another language,
it would probably be adding a bytecode compiler and runtime environment to
D http://www.digitalmars.com/d/

Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  Until then
C# is on my heck no list.  (Sorry)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby

Andrew C Oliver wrote:

 A few links:

   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp

 I was aware of this.

 Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  Until then
 C# is on my heck no list.  (Sorry)

Obviously you didn't follow the links.  I've reduced the set this time.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread acoliver

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0500 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote.
Andrew C Oliver wrote:

 A few links:

   http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
   http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
   http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
   http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
   http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp

 I was aware of this.

 Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  Until
then
 C# is on my heck no list.  (Sorry)

Obviously you didn't follow the links.  I've reduced the set this time.


I'll eat my words.  Damn, I just agreed to try C#.  Schisse, Ich glaube dass
nicht!  

It might be fun one day to create a C#-mono port of POInot right now
though...very busy.  

BTW I'll be offline next week.  Goin to Boston (actually NH, but flying into
Boston).  Anyone in Boston?

-Andy

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
 
 on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
 
  Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
  mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
 
 The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
 like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
 (neither do online polls)...
 
 The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
 on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
 concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a
couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and
yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4
machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run
unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from?

yep, you guessed it right: Java.

They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.

So they want to earn money on the other two sides: 

 big - enterprise (J2EE) 
 small - embedded (J2ME)

why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
fat machines and silicon chips).

Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
mail list? yeah, sure.

Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.

Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
(after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
doing with .NET)

You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
side of things.

Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
software to .NET and blah blah blah.

Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.

Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
fast.

My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.

Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.

Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
cliff at full speed.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche



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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro

Hi Stefano,

 -Mensaje original-
 De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
[...]
 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
 Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
 java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

And you will be a tinkerer, able to create a non-commercial bare-bones
application in two seconds. For more, you will have to pay Microsoft.

This implementation is intended to meet the needs of academics,
researchers, curious tinkerers, and those who wish to build independent
versions of the proposed ECMA standards.

Courtesy of Sam Ruby:
http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLI
FAQ.asp

The Microsoft .NET Framework and its accompanying C# compiler are a
commercial product, and have features not found in the ECMA working drafts.
[...] The source code to the .NET Framework will be available under
Microsoft's Shared Source Licensing Framework-see
http://www.microsoft.com/sharedsource for more details.

Is that acceptable for an Apache developer?

Un saludo,

Alex.



RE: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Scott Sanders

Most of the Mono Ximian crowd is in Boston IIRC.  Give them a shout.

Scott

 -Original Message-
 From: acoliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:01 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
 
 
 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0500 Sam Ruby 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. 
 Andrew C Oliver wrote:
 
  A few links:
 
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html
http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html
http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/
http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp
 
  I was aware of this.
 
  Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it.  
  Until
 then
  C# is on my heck no list.  (Sorry)
 
 Obviously you didn't follow the links.  I've reduced the set 
 this time.
 
 
 I'll eat my words.  Damn, I just agreed to try C#.  Schisse, 
 Ich glaube dass nicht!  
 
 It might be fun one day to create a C#-mono port of 
 POInot right now though...very busy.  
 
 BTW I'll be offline next week.  Goin to Boston (actually NH, 
 but flying into Boston).  Anyone in Boston?
 
 -Andy
 
 - Sam Ruby
 
 
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Scott Sanders

Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual.  As soon as a java2c#
porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on...

 -Original Message-
 From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:25 AM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
 
 
 Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
  
  on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
  
   Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The 
   java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but 
 are *very* 
   concerned.
  
  The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list 
  sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't 
  work against Sun (neither do online polls)...
  
  The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a 
 hole and then 
  pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are 
 lucky, you might 
  get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you 
 will be happy.
 
 In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as 
 soon as a couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron 
 is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive 
 clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat 
 the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is 
 Sun going to earn its money from?
 
 yep, you guessed it right: Java.
 
 They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management 
 decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java 
 version of StarOffice.
 
 So they want to earn money on the other two sides: 
 
  big - enterprise (J2EE) 
  small - embedded (J2ME)
 
 why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are 
 the things that go along better with Sun core business: which 
 is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips).
 
 Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries 
 on his own mail list? yeah, sure.
 
 Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to 
 open up java.
 
 Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch 
 to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure 
 can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for 
 free *normal* java implementations and sell 
 better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be 
 doing with .NET)
 
 You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the 
 marketing-software side of things.
 
 Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most 
 corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in 
 new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than 
 spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET 
 and blah blah blah.
 
 Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.
 
 Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore 
 because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and 
 you'd better learn it fast.
 
 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI 
 implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed 
 library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say 
 let's kiss java good bye.
 
 Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.
 
 Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.
 
 Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are 
 approaching the cliff at full speed.
 
 -- 
 Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
   able to give birth to a dancing star.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
 
 
 
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread James Strachan

 on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
  (JCACHE).
 
  Aaron

 Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there
 about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.

 Simple:

 JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will
own
 the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
 wildly.

I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims that
one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference
implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement - and
its been 5 months and counting...

James


_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 2/5/02 10:55 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On the other hand the porting tool already exists.  See
 http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/.  Yet the hordes still remain.
 
 - Sam Ruby

My favorite quote:

The Java Language Conversion Assistant has been developed independently by
Microsoft. It is neither endorsed nor approved by Sun Microsystems, Inc.

-jon


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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Micael Padraig Og mac Grene

Sam, I always get a kick out of your droll submissions.  Thanks for the 
quiet humor, which always includes informational content and never is too 
biting.  Micael

At 01:55 PM 2/5/02 -0500, you wrote:
Scott Sanders wrote:
 
  Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual.  As soon as a java2c#
  porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on...

Doesn't need to be to C#.  The bytecodes are language independent.  You can
write one class in Java, subclass it in VB, and call the result from Perl.

On the other hand the porting tool already exists.  See
http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/.  Yet the hordes still remain.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:09, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote:
 Hi Stefano,

  -Mensaje original-
  De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

 [...]

  My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
  Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
  java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

 And you will be a tinkerer, able to create a non-commercial bare-bones
 application in two seconds. For more, you will have to pay Microsoft.

err - you read what people write? Look at the license above. Do you consider 
people use other OSS tinkerers? In no way will you ever have to pay MS to use 
one of these impls.

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
The difference between genius, and stupidity? Genius has limits
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Peter Donald

On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
  On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
   
Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
standardized?
   
Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still
optimistic about Java?
  
   Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary
   thing to get back at SUN?  Heck no.
 
  You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as
  head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With
  the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource
  runtimes things are starting to look interesting.

 Can I run it on Linux?  Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
 Linux.

yes. Thats its primary target.

  *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk
  of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license
  like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.

 BUT THERE WON'T BE! 

you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy 
the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away 
years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece 
version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).

  If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
  still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then
  it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as
  MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost
  certainly fall down in that area.

 So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
 time its taken.  Mostly candy no meat.

er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is 
enough to make it one of the best releases yet.

-- 
Cheers,

Pete


Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today.


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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Sam Ruby

Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:

 Sam, I always get a kick out of your droll submissions.  Thanks for the
 quiet humor, which always includes informational content and never is too
 biting.  Micael

If you liked that, you might also like
http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/2002/02/02.html#a61 .  On the other hand,
I wouldn't spend too much time at that site as it is filled with boring
stuff like Web Services.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Jeff Schnitzer

 From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 
 Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual.  As soon as a java2c#
 porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on...

Actually, forget a porting tool.  I want an open-source version of
something like this:

http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp

Jeff Schnitzer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
  
  on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
  
   Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
   mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
  
  The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
  like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
  (neither do online polls)...
  
  The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
  on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
  concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
 
 In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of
 years:

hah... yeah... right.   How much money do they have in the bank?

Don't expect SUN to disappear in any less time than a decade.  Even if they did
EVERYTHING wrong from here on out they would still be around.  Same with
Microsoft and Oracle.

 if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though
 inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the
 pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn
 its money from?
 
 yep, you guessed it right: Java.

It is a valid point.  I don't know the numbers though.  I would expect at least
1/2 of Java's base to go away if C# sharpens up and looks better while Java is
more proprietary.

Could they make enought money to justify keeping Java proprietary?
Maybe... Enough money for SUN? Probably not.

Look what they did for OpenOffice.  They should do this for Java and take
another stab at Microsoft.
snip/

 
 Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
 mail list? yeah, sure.
 
 Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.

I don't need 10 billion dollars. 100 people collaborating towards this effort
would be enough.  Look what the Free Dmitry community did.  

We DON'T have to sit around and let other people control our destiny.  We can
take a stand! now.  We can send (snail) mail to SUN executives, we can gather
outside JavaOne and protest.  SUN has lied to us.  Whether this is deliberate or
not is another story.  I want to move on.

The community is what is important.  Look what we did at Apache?  No imagine a
fraction of the people here working to get SUN to release Java.

 Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS
 clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4
 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell
 better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET)

You can always make the argument that legacy systems will still need support.
These are also the same people that will NOT migrate to an Open Source Java
implementation even if it comes from SUN.

 You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side
 of things.

That is an understatement!

snip/

 Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.

Aren't you mad about this?  Don't you want to change things?

Dont't sit back and do nothing.  Sending emails to this list is just a waste of
your time.

There are a bunch of things we could do about this.  I don't know about you but
I am not smart enough to figure out the best approach.  Should we protest
JavaOne?  Should we create an online petition for SUN to free Java?  Should we
petition Apache to take a stand on this?  Should we draw a line in the sand?
Should we start a letter writing campaign?

I don't know.

I do know that the future is not set.  There is no fate but what we make for
ourselves.

 Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is
 a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast.

It is?  If Java is a commercial reality I have yet to see if.  A Java commercial
reality will have to compete with a C# commercial reality.  Microsoft has a
monopoly and our governent (US) isn't going to do anything about it.  A
proprietary Java (even if SUN wants to make money) is going to loose against C#.

We just have to convince SUN of this.  They aren't stupid... they are a bunch
of smart guys over there.  
snip/

 Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
 cliff at full speed.
snip/

I think we can agree that things are starting to get very uncomfortable.   I
don't know what is going to happen.  I just don't want to sit back and allow
myself to get steam rolled.

Kevin

- -- 
Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

Patriotism is the last refuge of 

Re: AW: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Juergen Fey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Hi,
 
 Java proves to be a reliable technology but some political questions are still
 open and some others - not all - are getting answered in the wrong direction.
 
 There could be a chance to discuss these things during the JavaOne next month.
 Perhaps at Jon`s new place which is not too far away from the Moscone center?
snip/

I would be game for this.  There are plenty of other places to talk if Jon
doesn't want to host one.

I think it is a good idea.

Kevin

- -- 
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 Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965
Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED],  Web - http://relativity.yi.org/

The IQ of Evolution is directly proportional to the square of the IQ of the
organisms it created.
  -- me
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread GOMEZ Henri

From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a
couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and
yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4
machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run
unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from?

Yes, it's the case for many high-end Unix systems, AIX, HPUX, Solaris
suffer from the concurrence of cluster of low end system, thanks to
IP routing/switching technology and it's ok for IP services, including
all Web Services. But business processing is not just IP oriented, you've
got DATABASES and BATCH processing which still need very powerfull hosts,
there is still today many VMS and OS/390 systems around and they will be
there for a pretty long time due to the quantity of in-house developpment
on RPG, COBOL, PL1 running on these boxes.

But you're true by saying that the number of high-end Unix servers may
decrease.

yep, you guessed it right: Java.

Exact

They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.

The alternative could came from initiative like Gnome and KDE, running
on low cost Unix boxes running Linux or FreeBSD and using StarOffice and
evolution products.

So they want to earn money on the other two sides: 

 big - enterprise (J2EE) 
 small - embedded (J2ME)

why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware 
(both big
fat machines and silicon chips).

For Sun chips and also for IBM Power architecture and Intel i32/i64...

Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries 
on his own
mail list? yeah, sure.

Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to 
open up java.

Kevin is rigth when he try to convince Sun to push Java on OpenSource,
may be not all the JVM but why not important parts, like external 
APIs. 

Why not give to Jakarta James Project the javamail API as they do with
Servlet and Jasper for Tomcat. May be because in both case there was 
OpenSource alternative like servlet compat hosted at euronet.nl and 
gnujsp for example. 

Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
(after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
doing with .NET)

Yes, Sun can't sell JDK when IBM continue to provide them for free on
major platform, and that may be the answer. 

Sun could provide better JVM for money but there is today some companies
who do that also but I'm unsure these companies have great profits/loss
ratio.

And there is still projects like GnuCC Java which in that case will gain
more interest and more developpers behind them. Question here, GnuCC for 
Java is hosted by Redhat which is an AOL target. And AOL is also a Sun 
ally so

All in one, the current JDK 1.3 and to be announced JDK 1.4 may be suffisant
for the next 10 years to come. Did future needs will require core JVM updates 
or just external APIs ? I'm sure we could all live with current JDK 1.3 and 
external API from ASF, Exolab, and all the OSS providers...

You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the 
marketing-software
side of things.

Sure and may be also have problem with US Department of Justice ;)

Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining 
people, porting
software to .NET and blah blah blah.

No, and for example take a look at IBM. They converted all their 
developpers to Java using tools like Visual Age for Java and now
Eclipse (www.eclipse.org). Do you think that IBM will drop all
the investments to convert them back to C# and .NET ?
Better IBM have Java on platform from i32 pc boxes to AIX, iSeries 
and up to OS/390, it's a standard for them and they won't let Java
die.

Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.

Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd 
better learn it
fast.

My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.

Not necessary, Java could live for many years even if Sun try to
make us pay for it. Again IBM is the major SDK providers on 
platform like Windows, Linux and it's own systems. 

And there is also Kaffe which could be pushed by the community.
And there is GnuCC for Java.

Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.

Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.

Anyway people: be ready to jump off the 

RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Ignacio J. Ortega

 De: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Enviado el: martes 5 de febrero de 2002 15:09

For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement,
I
have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and
NetScape
shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge
of
Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment).

( Trying to standup after laugthing for half of an hour :) 

for that matter.  I simply want to see more of us working together.
That's

As Always, you are the man , Sam..

+1000

I think this the *real* apache way, Now, i would like to propose to drop
the java word from the Jakarta Home Page and Mission Statement.. ;))
to be prepared for future.. :)))


Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Stefano Mazzocchi

Kevin A. Burton wrote:

 Dont't sit back and do nothing.  Sending emails to this list is just a waste of
 your time.

Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more:

- the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so
efficient with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of
its code written in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat
because java technical evolution can't stand the rate of community
evolution

- the java enthusiasts who is going to sit in front of the moscone
center in order to change Sun official's minds about Java licensing
saying that they lied to him because instead of giving him 100% of their
intellectual property, they gave him just 90% and now they are keeping
the 10% for them

Now tell me: who is wasting his time?

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote:
 Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
  
  on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
   I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
  
   Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
   mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
  
  The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds
  like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
  (neither do online polls)...
  
  The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound
  on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
  concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.
 
 In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a
 couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and
 yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4
 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run
 unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from?
 
 yep, you guessed it right: Java.
 

unlikely, that's a difficult transition to make.  Its easier to become
the next Borland than a
cross-platform-microsoft-like-palm-like-hybrid-thing.  Java doesn't
offer sun much of a business plan.

 They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided
 that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice.
 
 So they want to earn money on the other two sides: 
 
  big - enterprise (J2EE) 

possible.  They're going about it the wrong way (still).

  small - embedded (J2ME)
 

pipe dream.  If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded
means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang
win.  If it stays small, Palm and KR win.  Sun has to bet on something
in between or start making Java native chips again..  Its a pipe dream
of a business plan.

 why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things
 that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big
 fat machines and silicon chips).
 
 Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own
 mail list? yeah, sure.
 
 Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java.
 
 Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or
 OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it
 (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations
 and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be
 doing with .NET)
 
 You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software
 side of things.
 
 Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd
 rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on
 sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting
 software to .NET and blah blah blah.
 

perhaps.

 Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid.
 

probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests
and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's
interests, if that changes so does Sun).

 Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because
 Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it
 fast.
 
 My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
 Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
 java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
 

Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend.  If
maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an
objective for Mono then it will fail.  The 3000 lb gorilla will never
loose control of its illegitimate child.  

Regarding C#.  I still think I'd rather learn D www.digitalmars.com/d

If mono branches from .NET one starts asking why start with what I'm
sure has baggage from the Microsoft platform in the first place.

 Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading.
 
 Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle.
 
 Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the
 cliff at full speed.
 

Agreed.  Sun is self-immolating and fast.  I really do not see them
surviving the decade, and I'm skeptical about their survival beyond year
6 or 7 at least in their present form.  

I'm really not sure what skillsets I should pick up from here.  I'm
considering not being a programmer at all anymore (professionally) and
moving more toward the administrative side of things (again I'd never
give up coding for fun).  Seems a safer bet now that we're moving into
what I predict will be a decade of fad languages, etc.  

-Andy

 -- 
 Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
   able to give birth to a dancing star.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
 

Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 14:47, Peter Donald wrote:
 On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
  On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote:
   On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?

 Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java
 proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be
 standardized?

 Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still
 optimistic about Java?
   
Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary
thing to get back at SUN?  Heck no.
  
   You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as
   head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With
   the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource
   runtimes things are starting to look interesting.
 
  Can I run it on Linux?  Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on
  Linux.
 
 yes. Thats its primary target.
 
   *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk
   of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license
   like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like.
 
  BUT THERE WON'T BE! 
 
 you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy 

I don't respond to personal attacks.

 the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away 
 years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece 
 version (which is why it is now MIT licensed).
 

Right, but what I mean is this:  If you attempt to maintain
compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken
and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage
from COM and .NET etc.

   If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java
   still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then
   it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as
   MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost
   certainly fall down in that area.
 
  So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of
  time its taken.  Mostly candy no meat.
 
 er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is 
 enough to make it one of the best releases yet.
 

So the IO stuff made it?  I heard it was pushed to 1.5!  I've been
running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied
it.  I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as
I know and what was pushed back etc.  The good news is Java Generics got
pushed back to 1.5.  Sun still has time to rethink this crappy cop-out
implementation.  

Couldn't care less about GUI stuff really.

 -- 
 Cheers,
 
 Pete
 
 
 Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today.
 
 
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Kevin A. Burton wrote:
 
  Dont't sit back and do nothing.  Sending emails to this list is just a waste
  of your time.
 
 Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more:
 
 - the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so efficient
 with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of its code written
 in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat because java technical
 evolution can't stand the rate of community evolution

What is your problem!?

OK... when you get SUN to Open Source Java you can walk around with your head
high...  Until then any effort that contributes to this is a Good Thing in my
book.

 - the java enthusiasts

One person would look bad.  1000 people out from of Moscone would ge a good
thing.

 who is going to sit in front of the moscone center in order to change Sun
 official's minds about Java licensing saying that they lied to him because
 instead of giving him 100% of their intellectual property, they gave him just
 90% and now they are keeping the 10% for them
 
 Now tell me: who is wasting his time?
snip/

Hm... are you saying that protesting is a waste of time?

It is one of the efforts that sent Dmitry back to Russia ...

My point was that a lot of just spend a lot of time arguing about this stuff and
don't try to correct anything in the real world.

Kevin

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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-05 Thread Aaron Smuts

 Jerry Bortvedt
 jerry.bortvedt@oTo:
[NAME OMITTED], racle.com   cc:
  Subject: Re: OCS4J
availability
 06/28/2001 02:37
 PM



 Hi [NAME OMITTED],

 Try  http://otn.oracle.com/products/ocs4j/content.html  I don't off 
 hand know what the licensing agreement is for this, so whether it is 
 free probably depends on how you want to use it.

 Jerry

 [NAME OMITTED],wrote:

  Hi Jerry!
  I am interested in using OCS4J NOW. Is Oracle offering OCS4J as a 
  separate free package (I checked OTN and found nothing). Thnaks in 
  advance!
 
  [NAME OMITTED],
 (See attached file: jerry.bortvedt.vcf)


 -Original Message-
 From: James Strachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 1:29 PM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
 
  on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
   Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to
JSR107
   (JCACHE).
  
   Aaron
 
  Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person
there
  about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as
vocal.
 
  Simple:
 
  JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle
will
 own
  the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about
this
  wildly.
 
 I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims
 that
 one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference
 implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement -
and
 its been 5 months and counting...
 
 James
 
 
 
 _
 
 Do You Yahoo!?
 
 Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
 
 
 
 
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread hgo

 The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list
 sounds
 like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against
 Sun
 (neither do online polls)...
 
 The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then
 pound
 on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get
 them to
 concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

I hope that Sun will recall from its previous mistakes, like
putting Solaris in OSS just when Linux was so widely used on Unix
boxes that it became a de-facto reference in business even considered
by IT.

May be they will wake-up when MS .NET will start to populate
70% of the Web Services of the Planet, at that time they'll propose 
Java to OSS.

But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for
servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use 
the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad.

Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
instead of just software.


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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 16:58, Kevin A. Burton wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 Sorry for the X-post.
 

Then don't do it.

 I just created a new mailing list:
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 You can sign up here:
 
 http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead
 
 ...
 
 Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?
 
 Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
 even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?
 
 Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?
 

Heck no.  .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing
to get back at SUN?  Heck no.  

 Do you *hate* the JCP?
 

probably too strong a word.

 Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
 bloating it beyond belief?
 

no.  I think the VM needs a few new *well engineered* features.

 Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?
 

I think so...I'm not always sure about that.

 Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?
 

perhaps.

 ... 
 
 I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
 

no offense but if java is dead, why would you want a mailing list to
beat a dead horse?  

 Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
 mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
 



 Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
 site.
 
 Kevin
 
 - -- 
 Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
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- fix java generics!


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Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1


Sorry for the X-post.

I just created a new mailing list:

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

You can sign up here:

http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead

...

Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN?

Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary
even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized?

Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java?

Do you *hate* the JCP?

Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and
bloating it beyond belief?

Do you want SUN to Open Source Java?

Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations?

... 

I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.

Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.

Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your
site.

Kevin

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues.
  
  Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things.  The java-is-dead
  mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned.
 
 The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like
 a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun
 (neither do online polls)...
 
 The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on
 their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to
 concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy.

Well there really isn't any place to organize an effort like this... AKA
java-is-dead :)

... and yes I agree.  SUN is VERY stubborn even when faced with an inevitable
fact of life.

I just don't want to scrap all the Java work I have done over the last few
years just because SUN managers can't pull their heads out of the sand :(

Kevin

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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread Aaron Smuts

Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
(JCACHE).

Aaron

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf
Of
 Kevin A. Burton
 Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:48 PM
 To: Jakarta General List
 Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 snip/
 
 
  But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants
API
 like
  javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets.
Nota,
 that
  these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which
make
 me
  and others pretty bad.
 
 Yes... I couldn't agree more.  SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it
 proprietary and continually bloats the JDK.  Thanks guys ! :(
 
  Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services
 instead of
  just software.
 
 ... SUN and learn shouldn't be in the same sentence :)
 
 Kevin
 
 - --
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 [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
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RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

2002-02-04 Thread Aaron Smuts



 -Original Message-
 From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
 Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:29 AM
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
 
 on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107
  (JCACHE).
 
  Aaron
 
 Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person
there
 about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal.
 
 Simple:
 
 JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle
will
 own
 the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this
 wildly.

Hmmn.  So what is the significance?  What does this mean for
implementations?  Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent
others from implementing it?  What are the worse case scenarios?   What
is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR?

Aaron

 
 -jon
 
 
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