Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [*] Anyway, my point being that I'm really getting tired of being misread, misunderstood and being considered the general pain in the ass around here. My being here isn't helpful for me and it certainly isn't helpful for the community. [elegy] So long and thanks for all the fish. You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? -- Jan-Henrik Haukeland - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
Jan-Henrik Haukeland wrote: So long and thanks for all the fish. You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? I admit that I have a history of being obtuse, but the above sequence of words strikes me as particularly ironic. For those who care, http://www.sf.co.yu/science/hitchh4.htm . Meanwhile, I will readily agree that Jon is at times - OK, quite frequenty; oh, all right, pretty much all of the time - is a pain in the ass. But it is also important to realize that without him being exactly the way he is, this little community that we all are a part of quite possibly wouldn't be here. And Tomcat 3.3 probably wouldn't have a ratified release plan or nearly as many volunteers to support it. Nor would we be aware of the extent of the overlap between the various subprojects. Whether everyone here realizes it or not, we get a lot of benefit from Jon being here. It just is a shame that more people don't take the effort to return the favor sometimes. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
And Tomcat 3.3 probably wouldn't have a ratified release plan or nearly as many volunteers to support it. +1. Costin - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Backing out...(was: Re: What is Jakarta?)
on 2/11/01 7:31 AM, "Jan-Henrik Haukeland" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're not only a pain in the ass Jon, but an inconsistent pain in the ass. What's the point in saying goodbye and then keep on posting? Go back and read my email again. What I said is that I was not going to take part in PMC level decisions. -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Jakarta?
A little backstory on the connection pooling mechanism I submitted to Struts a while back: A couple of months ago, at the company I work for we ran into problems with the connection pooling implementation within the commercial product we were using. Specifically, (a) the pool itself was buggy and (b) the pool implementation made it difficult for us to pool PreparedStatements and the parse rate of unpooled PreparedStatements within the database was becoming a bottleneck to application performance. For this reason I put together a Connection/PreparedStatement pooling implementation that met our needs. Completely independently, I noticed the Struts project on jakarta.apache.org, started to poke around a bit, and subscribed to struts-dev and struts-user. I noticed that Struts had a basic connection pooling implementation. I also noticed several requests on struts-dev and struts-user looking to expand the functionality on the Struts connection pool. Many of the features (in fact all of the features) that were being asked for were/are features of the Connection/PreparedStatement pool I put together. So, I repackaged my code as org.apache.struts.*, and submitted it to the list. This is the way open source development is supposed to work, no? I had an itch, I scratched it. I noticed others had the same itch, so I offered it up. Now, unbeknownst to me, the Turbine project over at java.apache.org also has a connection pooling library with similar functionality. Maybe it's my fault for not knowing this. Maybe it's the struts-dev folks fault (sorry guys) for failing to mention that there is a connection pooling library in Turbine over at java.apache.org. Maybe it's Apache's fault for not providing a clear picture of what is available and where. Maybe it doesn't matter anyway because I think my pool is better designed, easier to maintain, or more feature rich than the existing one, in which case I think it's up to the community to decide which implementation they'd like to use. (And before we go off on a a holy war here, I'm not saying that I do think that. I'm specifically not saying that one impl is better or worse than the other. Not having looked at the Turbine stuff in detail, I'm in no position to state that. I'm just saying that that is a valid position to take. It could be wrong (in the eyes of the community) but it's not unreasonable.) Jon's response to this, when brought up in a slightly different context, was a bit off-putting: Meanwhile, I do think there would be a lot of interest in a Jakarta connection pool. In fact, someone has offered to donate one to Struts. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=97967619230491 Totally friggen lame. *All* of that code (and more) is already implemented in Turbine and can be used outside of the core "Turbine" system very easily. If all of that functionality is available in Turbine, that makes it *redundant*, not lame. Moreover, having poked around a bit in the Turbine stuff (and granted, I didn't poke that hard or that long, so maybe I missed it), it seems to me that not "all of that code is already implemented in Turbine". Specifically, (a) I don't see that Turbine is doing any pooling of PreparedStatements, which if you recall was the major itch I was trying to scratch, (b) Turbine's Connection pool seems to require specific references to TurbineDB--so that legacy code has to be retrofitted to work with Turbine's pool, (c) Turbine's pool doesn't seem to support a javax.sql.DataSource interface. Could Turbine's pool be modify to support these things? Of course, but I wasn't aware of Turbine's pool when I first submitted mine. Moreover, Jon's response doesn't make me feel like my contribution is very welcome there. Frankly, there seems to be some underlying Turbine vs. Struts politics here that I don't want to get involved in. If you'd like to debate the merits of one pooling implementation versus another, or to work to see the full suite of functionality implemented in a single pooling library, or perhaps to debate whether or not more than one pool implementation is warranted, then let's do so. But I don't think a knee-jerk response like that does much more than alienate potential developers. I was going to segue this into a discussion of how a more modular utility/services/library project or set of projects is warranted, but I see that Morgan and Ted have already kicked that off in earnest, so I'll follow up in that thread. - Rod -Original Message- From: Steve Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 4:23 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: What is Jakarta? It may not be easier, but it's certainly more fun. And it often seems easier to build to suit than to adapt something. -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 3:24 PM To: [EMAIL PR
RE: What is Jakarta?
Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:29 AM GOMEZ Henri wrote: I'm +1 with Arieh Markel about . Jakarta Base Network Utilities . Jakarta Base JSP Utilities . Jakarta XML Utilities . Jakarta SMTP Utilities . Jakarta Tools How do you make the tools so that they don't tie into applications too closely, or become sub-applications - not needed to build any Jakarta project. Or can they if they are still add on tools for a Jakarta package. Theo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is Jakarta?
Costin Manolache wrote: What's wrong with having multiple thread pools or db pools, each having special characteristics and working best in different situations ? Different, plug compatible, db pools would be great. Having each project early bind to a specific one is not. If I wanted to run JetSpeed and Coocoon today on the same web server, I would have to statically apportion my database connections between the two. Add Struts into the mix and I must further subdivide. Overall, I'm not overly concerned if we have multiple XML mappers. Arguably it would be better if we didn't, but on the other hand a little duplication sometimes removes the requirement for a lot of coordination. In other words, if this is an itch that somebody wants to scratch, I would encourage them to do so, but if not, I wouldn't want to mandate it from above. - Sam Ruby - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is Jakarta?
--- Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/6/2001 at 11:26 AM Delagrange, Morgan wrote: Right, but the Jakarta PMC chairman objects to that definition. I'm not sure if Sam Ruby has actually "objected" or not. It is evident that Roy Fielding has objected to the scope of the Jakarta Project. As it stands, the current mission given on the Web site is technically incorrect. If we want a broader scope, it's obvious that the ASF will require a board resolution to put things right. From Sam's comments, it seems pretty clear that he'd rather expand the scope than start pruning subprojects. If you make the definition of Jakarta this restrictive Jakarta's charter is * already * that restricted. The contract between the ASF and the Jakarta PMC reads that Jakarta is "charged with the creation and maintenance of open-source Java Servlet-related software for distribution at no charge to the public." Agreed, many Jakarta projects are currently out of scope according to the current charter. As you pointed out, the Jakarta PMC has exceed its original charter. The ASF board chairman has raised an exception, and presented two alternatives: (1) A broader charter or (2) More PMCs. Some people seem to like the idea of a broader charter. Other people have said they don't. I'm just suggesting that as a followup to Roy's suggestion (2) that we consider whether chartering Java-Apache for the out-of-scope projects makes any sense. Thanks to Jon for clarifying the deprecation of the java.apache.org domain. The current Jakarta site states: The older Java Apache Project will have its projects merged into the Jakarta Project in the near future (no set date). For more information please see the announcement on that website. If this is still the case, fine. If not, we need a new plan of action, since clearly java.apache.org needs to go away. Really, if you limit the scope of the Jakarta project to Servlet-based technologies, the list of in-scope projects is very short: But, is that a bad thing? It's too specific. See next comment. projects like Slide and Struts, which only deal with servlets in part I can't vouch for Slide, but Struts is definately Java Servlet-related software. I didn't say there weren't servlet-related components in Struts, I'm saying there's a lot more in Struts than servlet stuff; hence you can easily argue that Struts is not entirely in-scope. Much of Struts deals with servlets, but Struts also provides frameworks for XML parsing and database pooling, correct? Since these are not specifically servlet-related, they would have to be removed from the project. I'm not arguing for Jakarta becoming the one giant Java project, I'm just saying that a Servlet-oriented charter is too inflexible. I'd rather see a charter that focuses on Java servers and related tools (and I think Ant in particular may not fit, but that's another argument). - Morgan = Morgan Delagrange Britannica.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions.yahoo.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What is Jakarta?
At 16:01 06.02.2001 -0500, you wrote: On 2/6/2001 at 9:13 PM Ceki Glc wrote: What would be gained by refining the charter of Jakarta and pruning projects? Roy Fielding has indicated that some action is necessary. His two suggestions were to either ask the board to create additional PMCs, or to broaden the scope of the existing PMC. What decisions does the PMC take? Part of the problem is that the ASF PMC's are a recent invention, so no one is entirely sure how they should work We are working on that as part of the update to the guidelines at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/proposal.html#management . Thanks for the link. Here is an excerpt from that document: Responsibilities of the PMC include: - the active discussion of Project issues, strategic direction, and forward progress, - the consideration and approval of new subprojects, - retiring inactive subprojects and Committers as necessary, - arbitrating otherwise intractable disputes regarding subproject voting and vetos, - the security and reliability of the Project's Web site, mailing lists, code repositories, and related services, - legal issues involving the Project and its subprojects, and maintaining Project and subproject scope as chartered by the ASF corporation As I understand it, the main responsibility of the PMC is to decide whether to include a sub-project under the Jakarta label and possibly act as an arbitrator in case of conflicts within a sub-project. There is also the task of managing the Jakarta web-site + mailing lists but that is probably less strategic a task (read: a chore). :) My guess is that when all strictly sub-project related tasks are delegated to the committers, the PMC could fulfill its role even in the presence of many, say 10 to 20 sub-projects. Am I missing anything obvious? Cheers, Ceki Ceki Glc e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred) av. de Rumine 5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] CH-1005 Lausanne SwitzerlandTel: ++41 21 351 23 15 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What is Jakarta?
on 2/6/01 5:04 PM, "Ted Husted" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still don't quite get why this is such an issue. The efficiency of a pool comes from sharing connections that use the same login to the same database. It would be likely that Jetspeed, Turbine, and Struts may all want to connect to the same DBMS, but they would not usually want to connect to the same database using the same login. However, what is missing (from everything BUT Turbine's implementation) is a "Service" that would allow you to have multiple database connection pools to multiple different backends with different login account settings. This *is* something that Turbine provides. Eventually, someone will come along to the Struts project who needs this functionality and it will get re-implemented yet again. Meanwhile, I do think there would be a lot of interest in a Jakarta connection pool. In fact, someone has offered to donate one to Struts. http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=struts-devm=97967619230491 Totally friggen lame. *All* of that code (and more) is already implemented in Turbine and can be used outside of the core "Turbine" system very easily. Perhaps the thing to do would be to circulate a Request for Proposal to the subprojects that might use database connections, and see what we get back. No, the right direction would be to use the project which implemented this code first and has the most complete solution and ask that project to externalize their code in such a way that it could be used in other projects. Oh wait. The Turbine Project already did all of that work. It really disappoints me that Craig and the Struts project have completely ignored the fact that they said he wouldn't compete with Turbine and would instead work with us instead of re-implementing everything...instead, now we have a war of duplication between Turbine and Struts. As a result, I'm now creating an Essay titled "You make the decision." that will explain in detail the differences on implementing a system based on top of Struts+JSP and Turbine+Velocity. It will be up to our user base to choose the one they prefer and the amount of lower level duplication will continue to grow until someone wakes up and realizes that this code can be generalized into another project... But, I'm not going to start working on that other project until I can get agreement and proof that Struts community will contribute to the project because so far, they have refused to contribute to Turbine which is the project they are duplicating... Sigh. -jon -- If you come from a Perl or PHP background, JSP is a way to take your pain to new levels. --Anonymous http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ | http://java.apache.org/turbine/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]