Re: comments on a project
Dennis Kempin wrote: Hello Ortwin, * You mention "problems with JSP". What are they? At first I tried to use JSP without any framework or taglib. As you are coming from PHP that approach seems somehow natural, but of course is totally wrong. > In contrast to templates JSP doesn't help much on seperating logic and html code, That's why we need webapp frameworks. > because you still need comparatively much code to iterate over Lists, or print out some text. This is where taglibs come into play. And I could not get used to the Model View Controller concept. You said earlier that in your framework "All commponents have a template and a class file". Template = View, Class file = Controller. You also mentioned a persistence layer. You can not have a persistence layer when your model is not separated from the rest. All this implies you have implemented the MVC pattern in your framework. I don't see how you can not get used to it then. * Which frameworks do you mean and what's the problem with them? I tried many of these GUI-Like Frameworks at first, but well I wanted to create a small Discussion Forum, and these Frameworks have not matched this target. I also gave Tapestry a try. I really liked it, but I dont like this Action, Objects and Methods instead of Pages and URLs concept. The most other frameworks I tried implemented the MVC pattern Because it's a natural and proven design that has evolved over the years maybe? > and used a lot of xml configuration, and looked to me very complicated. You got a point there. Many frameworks indeed rely on overly complicated XML configuration and often offer no way around. But sometimes it's worth diving into it because you get a lot in return - Spring's bean factory for example. * What does you framework make better? Well I dont know if it is a subjective opinion of mine, but my target is to make the development as easy as possible. Sounds good. I had this framework in a slightly different form nearly completly implemented, used it and tried to make it easier whereever it was possible. It was easy to implement a component that displays a paged dataset, and reuse it with just one or two lines in the template. Does it do anything else apart from being just "easy"? Then my laptop HDD crashed and my last backup was a few weeks ago, so I decided to reimplement it, and add a few new concepts. Sounds sad, but doesn't answer my question. I found it just -easy- to create pages with that framework, and when i look at other framework i dont think that i would like them as much as i liked my framework (well that is pretty much a subjective oppinion of mine, but I find it hard to explain without examples). * Why do you invent a proprietary XML scripting facility? JSTL is standard and there are numerous development tools readily available. I havent looked at JSTL that much, because it has gone to the trash in my brain just with jsp. I am afraid you completely missed the essence of JSP by this oversight. I just looked around and think that i really should try to use it instead of implementing my own template engine. That would be reasonable. well you dont disencourage me, but you make me think of special topic of the framework, and that really helped me. thanks. I hope that I get more comments on this greetings Dennis Please pardon me for my basic english. Your original request was that you would like to put your project into Jakarta. Well, that's not simple. It needs a bit more than just a good idea and intention. To make that happen the project technically needs to go through the Incubator: http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html As you can see you need a "Champion" and get Jakarta as a "Sponsor". Given the reluctant feedback to your request I doubt that you will find sufficient support here. Maybe it's easier for you to put your project on Sourceforge which can be done in a matter of days. There you get the chance to build up a greater community and give people the chance to actually look at your project. If the project is successful you can always try Incubation. Many projects have been on Sourceforge before they came to the ASF. Kind regards Ortwin Glück -- [web] http://www.odi.ch/ [blog] http://www.odi.ch/weblog/ [pgp] key 0x81CF3416 finger print F2B1 B21F F056 D53E 5D79 A5AF 02BE 70F5 81CF 3416 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: comments on a project
Others may disagree, but personally, I always liked the Maverick MVC framework. It's very simple, has no excess baggage. I've found it a good approach to MVC for those new to the concept. You might take a quick look. http://mav.sourceforge.com As an aside, also check out the Velocity project for an alternative to JSP for web page design/templating. Again, very simple approach. http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity (disclaimer: I'm just a user of Maverick but am involved in the Velocity project). Cheers, WILL - Original Message - From: "Noel J. Bergman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Jakarta General List" Sent: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 12:11 PM Subject: RE: comments on a project At first I tried to use JSP without any framework or taglib. In contrast to templates JSP doesn't help much on seperating logic and html code Please see the JSP 2.0 Specification for Tag Files. Tags are your friends, and Tag Files make them easy to write. And I could not get used to the Model View Controller concept. Very simple concept. Documentation (and examples) often over complicates it. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: comments on a project
> At first I tried to use JSP without any framework or taglib. In > contrast to templates JSP doesn't help much on seperating logic > and html code Please see the JSP 2.0 Specification for Tag Files. Tags are your friends, and Tag Files make them easy to write. > And I could not get used to the Model View Controller concept. Very simple concept. Documentation (and examples) often over complicates it. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: comments on a project
Hello Ortwin, * You mention "problems with JSP". What are they? At first I tried to use JSP without any framework or taglib. In contrast to templates JSP doesn't help much on seperating logic and html code, because you still need comparatively much code to iterate over Lists, or print out some text. And I could not get used to the Model View Controller concept. * Which frameworks do you mean and what's the problem with them? I tried many of these GUI-Like Frameworks at first, but well I wanted to create a small Discussion Forum, and these Frameworks have not matched this target. I also gave Tapestry a try. I really liked it, but I dont like this Action, Objects and Methods instead of Pages and URLs concept. The most other frameworks I tried implemented the MVC pattern and used a lot of xml configuration, and looked to me very complicated. * What does you framework make better? Well I dont know if it is a subjective opinion of mine, but my target is to make the development as easy as possible. I had this framework in a slightly different form nearly completly implemented, used it and tried to make it easier whereever it was possible. It was easy to implement a component that displays a paged dataset, and reuse it with just one or two lines in the template. Then my laptop HDD crashed and my last backup was a few weeks ago, so I decided to reimplement it, and add a few new concepts. I found it just -easy- to create pages with that framework, and when i look at other framework i dont think that i would like them as much as i liked my framework (well that is pretty much a subjective oppinion of mine, but I find it hard to explain without examples). * Why do you invent a proprietary XML scripting facility? JSTL is standard and there are numerous development tools readily available. I havent looked at JSTL that much, because it has gone to the trash in my brain just with jsp. I just looked around and think that i really should try to use it instead of implementing my own template engine. well you dont disencourage me, but you make me think of special topic of the framework, and that really helped me. thanks. I hope that I get more comments on this greetings Dennis Please pardon me for my basic english. Dennis, I don't want to discourage you. But I fail to see any of the following: * You mention "problems with JSP". What are they? * Which frameworks do you mean and what's the problem with them? * What does you framework make better? * Why do you invent a proprietary XML scripting facility? JSTL is standard and there are numerous development tools readily available. Ortwin Glück - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: comments on a project
Dennis,
I don't want to discourage you. But I fail to see any of the following:
* You mention "problems with JSP". What are they?
* Which frameworks do you mean and what's the problem with them?
* What does you framework make better?
* Why do you invent a proprietary XML scripting facility? JSTL is
standard and there are numerous development tools readily available.
Ortwin Glück
Dennis Kempin wrote:
Hello,
I had been programming dynamic Websites with PHP the last few years
until I discovered Java, and all its advantages. But I had many
problems migrating to JSP, and tried many frameworks until I gave up
and created an own framework, that is easy to use even for ex-PHP
developer (Targeting on non commercial use, such as small dynamic
websites up to discussion board. I am not targeting on business use).
Now I made a complete redesign of the framework and I want to know if
there would be a chance to get that project into jakarta. I just want
to know if you think that its concept would match to jakarta, and what
you think about the concept in general.
Concepts:
Servlet/Module System:
I want to proved an own configuration file. I realized, that web.xml,
its servlet mappings and JNDI is pretty complicated to use. In the
configuration file the user can define servlets and modules. They can
be linked together by dependencies. An example:
Well this configuration file does not have as much opportunities as the
web.xml but it is much easier to use.
Components/Pages:
Well this is a bit parallel to tapestry as I realized later. All
commponents have a template and a class file. The class file can assign
variables to the template at page creation and at each request. You can
insert component into other components, while pages are nothig else as
a component, without a parent component.
The template engine is based on xml, you can print variables with
${variablename} and you can iterate over lists, or use conditions using
... or even thor:foreach="$line in $list">
Components are inserted in the template with the component tag
(). A component can take the same parameters as a
Module in the config file. You can assign depedencies and properties.
There will also be a small xml based content managment system and small
persistence framework, but that has to be implemented lateron.
please take some time to comment on this, i would really appreceate that
Dennis
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[blog] http://www.odi.ch/weblog/
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comments on a project
Hello,
I had been programming dynamic Websites with PHP the last few years until
I discovered Java, and all its advantages. But I had many problems
migrating to JSP, and tried many frameworks until I gave up and created an
own framework, that is easy to use even for ex-PHP developer (Targeting on
non commercial use, such as small dynamic websites up to discussion board.
I am not targeting on business use).
Now I made a complete redesign of the framework and I want to know if
there would be a chance to get that project into jakarta. I just want to
know if you think that its concept would match to jakarta, and what you
think about the concept in general.
Concepts:
Servlet/Module System:
I want to proved an own configuration file. I realized, that web.xml, its
servlet mappings and JNDI is pretty complicated to use. In the
configuration file the user can define servlets and modules. They can be
linked together by dependencies. An example:
Well this configuration file does not have as much opportunities as the
web.xml but it is much easier to use.
Components/Pages:
Well this is a bit parallel to tapestry as I realized later. All
commponents have a template and a class file. The class file can assign
variables to the template at page creation and at each request. You can
insert component into other components, while pages are nothig else as a
component, without a parent component.
The template engine is based on xml, you can print variables with
${variablename} and you can iterate over lists, or use conditions using
... or even thor:foreach="$line in $list">
Components are inserted in the template with the component tag
(). A component can take the same parameters as a
Module in the config file. You can assign depedencies and properties.
There will also be a small xml based content managment system and small
persistence framework, but that has to be implemented lateron.
please take some time to comment on this, i would really appreceate that
Dennis
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
