Re: cross-project communications
One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a Jakarta newsletter (look for subject Jakarta Newsletter in the archives). At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed having someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or so I'm too busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would volunteer to do more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be the collector of the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on that it would be great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out. In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we could announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other general issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta world. I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob? Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original messages? Erik - Original Message - From: Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM Subject: cross-project communications Berin Loritsch wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Translation: Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org XML = xml.apache.org And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is: everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede. Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with anything but this or that. It just baffles the crap out of me. If I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP. Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump). Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of sneaking up on us. When we get the message convert all your projects..., that would definitely catch alot of people off guard. I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the *instanceof* java part). I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general for me most of the time. Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could reuse the name to create a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, or some similar cross-project structure to ease java development communications. The main points I see are: - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the java-related tools) - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure (build, test, document, ...) - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead of being developed there. Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?) going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization points does not help much. I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive solutions. Regards, Santiago -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: cross-project communications
Oh and I'll help you out Geir in anyway I can in this effort. Just ask. -Andy Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta mail lists? -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand, we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might shock them :) However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross-project communications
Geir wrote: -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand, we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might shock them :) ouch - that hurts :-) /Steven -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross-project communications
Sorry all, my fault! Since starting that thread I have been swamped with the day job, and free time has been somewhat filled trying to keep an eye on ant / lucene / commons / general lists... Stepping back for a moment I notice this is an argument for getting on with the newsletter rather than putting it off, so I'll see if I can get the ball rolling properly this time. There was some interest and a few subprojects submitted something with a wide variety of styles / content. If there is still some interest (and I think these threads have proven the need) then I'll get back on the case. I'll put together some sort of 0th issue by the end of the weekend for release on general@. Unless anyone else wants to chuck anything in, I'll start with the stuff I know (ant, commons) and then use a mail archive to try and find the busy threads of a few other subprojects (I'll probably take the opportunity to dip into lucene, bcel poi -dev and then just see what else I find time for). Comments / input are welcome, hopefully with lots more after the first issue! Rob -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 1 May 2002 19:20 To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: cross-project communications One thing that we discusssed back in late December was setting up a Jakarta newsletter (look for subject Jakarta Newsletter in the archives). At that time I volunteered to provide an Ant update, as we discussed having someone from each project provide updates. For the next month or so I'm too busy to do anything more than that, but after that I would volunteer to do more - like roll up the updates from the projects and be the collector of the news. If someone wants to get the ball rolling on that it would be great, and I'll jump in very soon to help out. In the monthly (seems to be the best frequency to use) newsletter we could announce new projects, new releases, new committers, and any other general issues that are of interest to folks keeping tabs on the Jakarta world. I apologize for not following up on the newsletter thing before. Rob? Geir? Thoughts? Did either of you do anything since our original messages? Erik - Original Message - From: Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:05 PM Subject: cross-project communications Berin Loritsch wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Translation: Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org XML = xml.apache.org And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is: everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede. Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. Gee we don't like that lets do our own thing or integrate with anything but this or that. It just baffles the crap out of me. If I had the choice. I'd use NEITHER. I choose Centaven WITH GUMP. Fine. The history is that Forrest was in motion before I even knew there was such a thing as Maven. I know the folks involved with Forrest, and they are top notch people. The whole purpose of Forrest is to work with GUMP. (Notice the synergy: Forrest Gump). Forrest was started and talked about publicly on the general@xml list before it was even started. That is something that somewhat perturbs me about the Turbine projects. SOmething with Maven's scope and ability should have been talked about publicly instead of sneaking up on us. When we get the message convert all your projects..., that would definitely catch alot of people off guard. I am interested is most of Jakarta-land, and in most of xml-land (the *instanceof* java part). I'm wondering if cross-communication lists would be needed. Since there are plenty of communities in Apache, the general lists are too general for me most of the time. Since the java.apache.org project was frozen a lot of time ago, we could reuse the name to create a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list, or some similar cross-project structure to ease java development communications. The main points I see are: - xml is becoming fairly used everywhere, so that most of us are related to it somehow (specially as power-users or plain-users of the java-related tools) - a significant part of Jakarta is devoted to project infrastructure (build, test, document, ...) - infrastructure thingies springin in xml are being sent outside instead of being developed there. Java server is a big box to organize things, and XML is potentially even bigger, so I think some organizational thinking should be (is already?) going on. Also, one year and a half without an ApacheCon synchronization points does not help much. I'm not entering here to pick up flames, just looking for constructive solutions. Regards, Santiago -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe
Re: xml Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
| Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets | set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications | going...joins. | What I'm most interested in is *would you join*. | How bout it Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scottgang? Can't we just join general@xml anyway, esp. since someone said it was reasonably low traffic. That'd be my preferred option. -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting Work: http://www.multitask.com.au Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: cross-project communications
Good point. I for one am rather 'amused' in the difference of style *and* momentum in between both general@ lists and projects, and indeed there exists some partisanship that divides both. Duh. Oh well, part of the fun over here is exactly participating in this electronic biosphere while observing 'group dynamics'. Apparently, the XML style of doing things is a bit more conservative with regards to the creation of new subprojects, whereas Jakarta has a history of scratching itches fairly often, and subsubprojects being graduated to full-blown subprojects as a result of that. And both groups feel pretty proud of their realisations, which is natural, of course. Hence the heated discussions when overlap (and competition) comes into existence. * On a global level: Over the past few weeks, there was an avalanche of new project proposals on the Jakarta list, clearly some people start to believe ASF blessing of a project is a safehaven for community-poor projects. To the outside world, it isn't clear what the criteria are for new project proposals (and indead only Jakarta explicitely lists those at http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html, a pity this hasn't done (to my knowledge) for the XML site as well, I keep on referring people to the Jakarta site). I believe rules for subproject and subsubproject creation should be clearly stated on an ASF-wide level. Global policies or email contacts that can give authorative answers to these issues are hard to discover for newbies (even though I'm following a lot of email lists for the past 2 or 3 years, I still consider myself to be a novice in this regard). To an outsider, both PMC's operate quite silently (I understand and appreciate them keeping a low profile and having a supportive instead of enforcing role), perhaps some joint statements on this matter could clarify this. IMO, one of the issues to be tackled is the creation of subsubprojects without some broader consensus (IMO!). Apart from that, some people, myself included, articulated the need for having a cross Apache list to discuss issues on commercial activities (like support and consulting) based on Apache projects, and after some private communications the common feeling was that we didn't really knew where to go with our ideas. So I am all +1 to discuss the need and eventually the setup of some cross-project communication platform, not just because of Java topics not being addressed as Santiago indicated, but because we are on the brink of deteriorating partisanship between both communities. We all depend on a spirit of rapid consensus and getting on with the work. If we create a forum where we can ventilate crossproject issues and also discuss/prepare project integration, the lists where the real work is carried out are freed from these email avalanches which sometimes leave a bad taste in one's mouth. * The Centipede/Maven/Gump 'case': I'm happy to see that the discussion is finally converging into a positive and hopefully productive atmosphere. The only remaining impression is that all of these projects have been build with a need for coherence in mind, whether that is coherence for building projects, managing dependencies or having a coherent website (The XML group has opted to create a subproject Forrest for the latter). Apart from the choosen solution, I believe presenting a coherent image of both the Jakarta and XML communities and projects is of vital importance for the uptake of our lovingly crafted goodies. We see a plethora of initiatives in this direction nowadays but as the recent heated discussion just has shown, it would have been better if both communities were aware of each other a bit sooner. As an aside from all this emotional stuff, on Forrest: our short term goal is to provide a facility to build and maintain a coherent xml.apache.org site. We're not in the business of dependency checking (Gump is), project/build frameworks (Maven and Centipede are) or XML web publishing (Cocoon is). By coincidence (and since we didn't know Maven existed, see my previous statements), we have choosen Centipede to bootstrap our project, and Cocoon as the publishing engine. I know Maven does similar stuff on a project-level (correct me if I'm wrong), but Forrest intends to go xml.apache.org-wide and is clearly website-focused. But as I said, this is just an aside for people wondering what all these strange new projects are about ;-) Just my 2 eurocent, /Steven -Original Message- From: Santiago Gala [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: woensdag 1 mei 2002 20:06 To: Jakarta General List Subject: cross-project communications Berin Loritsch wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Translation: Jakarta = jakarta.apache.org XML = xml.apache.org And the reason on XML.apache.org there is no discussion is: everyone seems to be on board with Forrest--which is using Centipede. Yeah so why can't these work together? I still just don't get it. Gee we don't like
xml Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
excuse the cross post.but...XML'ers are you interested would you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created? Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta mail lists? -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand, we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might shock them :) However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: xml Jakarta mail list WAS: Re: cross-project communications
Call me silly but I don't think votes are necessary. Basically it gets set up and everyone who wants to get xml-jakarta communications going...joins. What I'm most interested in is *would you join*. How bout it Jon, Dion... Pier, Sam...Sylvain...Scottgang? -Andy On Wed, 2002-05-01 at 17:03, Paul Libbrecht wrote: I'm not a voter, but it would be interesting I think... Paul On Mercredi, mai 1, 2002, at 10:44 , Andrew C. Oliver wrote: excuse the cross post.but...XML'ers are you interested would you join a new cross-xml-jakarta list if it were created? Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On 5/1/02 4:31 PM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do you think of combining the general@xml and general@jakarta mail lists? -1 because I think we should ease into this slowly - from what I understand, we are way more chatty and entropic than the XML community, so we might shock them :) However, I think a joint community list is a great idea. I'd volunteer to moderate (I moderate general@jakarta now, so what's one more...) - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - In case of troubles, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
