JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

2003-01-30 Thread Santiago Gala
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (...) It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The only alternative is to try to start another standards body, but I think you will find that, like the other standards

Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

2003-01-30 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr .
On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (...) It's the compromise we/I willingly make to be able to work inside the process to help shape it the way we/I think it should be shaped. The only alternative is to try to start another standards

Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

2003-01-30 Thread Henri Yandell
On Thu, 30 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Thursday, January 30, 2003, at 10:30 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: Agreed, good supporting feedback, and this is something that is a current topic of interest in the JCP EC. We (the members of the EC, the ASF being a member) are interested in

Re: JCP Process [Was nice ;-)]

2003-01-30 Thread Santiago Gala
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (...) agreed Yes - indeed. The idea is to have more public participation (vote early and often, as they say in Chicago :) in the process w/o the EG having to expand to include only the mildly interested, and w/o having constraints like an NDA placed on the

Re: nice

2003-01-30 Thread Pier Fumagalli
On 30/1/03 13:26 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold my soul,

Re: nice

2003-01-30 Thread acoliver
Right but he's not AFAIK working there now and potentially exposed to NDA-tainted individuals :-) -Andy - Original Message - From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:31 PM Subject: Re: nice

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Leo Simons
Robert Simmons wrote: Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your way. You get to choose between a mass of political bullshit and having no choice at all. you have a choice: open source software. And it's a good choice for real life business, too. cheers :D -

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and that is why .NET will win. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. -jon +1 Well said Jon.

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr .
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: It's only by understanding the JCP and infiltrating it that we have much chance to try and change it though. The whole thing is just one opaque block from here. We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Henri Yandell
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Serge Knystautas
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court that decides whether to recount the votes... decides everything. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software .

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr .
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:38 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Micael
I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns, anthrax, etc.? At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court

RE: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Tom Copeland
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/godwin_s_law.html Tom -Original Message- From: Micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:20 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: nice I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens
on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert group, but it does

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Henri Yandell
So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the agreement thing and be an ASF representative? Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003,

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Santiago Gala
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: (...) Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. IMO, the closeness of the JCP process

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Santiago Gala
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (...) What else would you like to know? What are your specific problems? is there a specific technology/spec that you are interested in participating in? have you ever interacted with the expert group of a JSR via their interest list or during a public, community

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread Jon Scott Stevens
on 2003/1/29 10:26 AM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread acoliver
, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: Re: nice On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. Yeah I know

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread acoliver
And they would not be able to collaborate with their fellow members who are not in the expert group due to NDAs. -Andy - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: Re: nice So

Re: nice

2003-01-29 Thread acoliver
There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. +1 - especially if a goal of it is to

nice

2003-01-28 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Henri Yandell
Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Robert Simmons
: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Henri Yandell
But who speaks for JCP? While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. An individual can join one project without having to pay

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Robert Simmons
But who speaks for JCP? Those who chose to be involved. While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Jon Scott Stevens
Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail:

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Henri Yandell
. While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee. You

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Robert Simmons
PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:37 AM Subject: Re: nice Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time. -jon

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Jon Scott Stevens
on 2003/1/28 9:50 PM, Robert Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your way. You get to choose between a mass of political bullshit and having no choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put your

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Henri Yandell
: But who speaks for JCP? Those who chose to be involved. I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer, I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP. While you offer a nice brochure view

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Henri Yandell
you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee. You

Re: nice

2003-01-28 Thread Steven Noels
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. Yay! +1 Cluetrain might be the naive