On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
| Don't feed |
| the trolls |
|
|
|
--\|/
--
Andrew C. Oliver
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Yep. Do that. Every committer should want to be part of the PMC.
geir
--
Geir Magnusson Jr
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote:
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to
have almost destroyed the
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to
have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.
No worries, mate. The Apache License is the ultimate hedge. No matter
what happens, you can always set up the source someplace else. The most
you could possibly lose would be the product name, and, realistically,
if there wasn't a community behind the product, Apache wouldn't want it
anyway :)
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
--
Andy Armstrong, Tagish
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone. Interested?
--
Andy Armstrong,
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone. Interested?
Yes, very much thanks.
--
Andy Armstrong, Tagish
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As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Danny Angus wrote:
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
the
public?
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the
origanization. I can understand certain
private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else,
I think, should be out in
the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some
talk going on about
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more
than
name if all decisions end
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.
Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is
pretty broad.
Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote:
Anyone. Interested?
I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a
Struts committer. My apache ID is germuska.
Joe,
I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list.
Congrats on becoming a committer. I hope that your
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:25 -0500 (EST)
Henri Yandell wrote:
Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more
aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this
open forum.
About the issue of openness and closeness:
board@ is *public* for all the
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
Isn't everything you disagree with?
I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
of the things that are concerning us.
Which is IMHO,
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something. That's commonly known as FUD.
I think the best way to describe what is
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if the role of a PMC member is
simply to follow some guidelines and regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC
member and a committer. If the PMC membership requires legal and governing skills, I am not
Howard Lewis Ship wrote:
The more I see of this discussion, the more convinced I am that
the sub-projects of Jakarta should be run like mini-TLPs.
We want to leverage the marketing power of the Jakarta brand,
the experience of the other Jakarta developers, and some
infrastructure support
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
and a committer. If the PMC
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
regulate development, I don't see the distinction between a PMC member
and a committer.
Henri Yandell wrote:
I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7
members.
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is
absolutely nothing that says that we
I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.
grin You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is that a PMC member, as
a normative statement, has a binding vote on the project. By allowing
someone to become a Committer, you allow direct contribution to the
codebase, but the
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
If the aim of the PMC is to house a vast majority of committers, and if
the role of a PMC member is simply to follow some guidelines and
regulate development, I
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC of 7
members.
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a
Henri Yandell wrote:
Obviously, something is afoot ... otherwise, why are healthy projects
moving out of Jakarta, up to the top level (Ant, Maven and now logging)?
Is that the destiny of Jakarta, to be a second-level incubator for
projects on the way to TLP status? If so ... embrace that.
As
On Thu, 2003-12-18 at 14:03, Henri Yandell wrote:
Either it would roll back to the old style as Tomcat + friends, or would
become the Java-Foundry for Apache [a la Sourceforge], or would become
Jakarta Commons, or both of the latter two. Dunno what other visions there
might be out there for
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:24 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it was
said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta PMC
of 7
members.
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 2:35 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
I would have embraced that idea a year ago, but when discussed it
was said
to not be an option to have a hierarchy of PMCs below the Jakarta
PMC of 7
members.
There is a
Ah now it all makes sense :)
May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be no reason to lobby for more
members, really.
-Harish
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
I don't see the distinction between a PMC member and a committer.
grin You catch on quickly. :-) The difference is
Hi,
I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would like to help grow Jakarta in
whatever capacity I can and I request my nomination for PMC membership.
Regards,
Harish
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Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:08 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
Ah now it all makes sense :)
May be this should be included with the CLA and then there would be
no reason to lobby for more members, really.
We want to make sure that the PMC members are committers who
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
Hi,
I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would
like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my
nomination for PMC membership.
Hey look! He's willing to swim upstream to help *grow* Jakarta.
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 3:14 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
Hi,
I, Harish Krishnaswamy (harishkswamy), a Tapestry committer, would
like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I request my
nomination for PMC membership.
Hey
Then try this:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges
It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the
disclaimer at the top, however trying to distill any controversial
Very nice, this really clarifies the organizational structure and issues at hand.
Thanks,
Harish
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Then try this:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges
It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
and the ASF
+1
If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center
of the apache java development with a shared announcement list,
general list, news and download pages, ...
The only change is that the board gets a list of
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.
Hi,
I, Dirk Verbeeck (dirkv), a jakarta-commons (and slide) committer,
would like to help grow Jakarta in whatever capacity I can and I
request my nomination for PMC membership.
Regards,
Dirk
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On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to
To do this, each product would simply need to draft a resolution to
create the PMC and select a chair, and ask that it be placed on the
board's agenda for the next meeting, just as Log4J and the others did.
It would be very important that each product do this themselves, to help
show they are
Hi,
I, Tetsuya Kitahata (tetsuya), would like to help
oversight of the jakarta websites. I request
my nomination for PMC membership.
Maybe this can be expressed as jakarta-site2 PMC.
Note: The creation of jakarta-site2 project has been voted
here last year and adopted already.
Thanks,
--
I'm not asking for a change, I only see a lot of mails again and again
about the board asking for more insight into the working of jakarta.
Same with the whole jakarta-commons apache-commons discussion.
If this can be solved by just doing some paperwork (writing down who
is supervising what)
-Original Message-
From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more
1) s/product/sub-project/
2) I don't know what 'hosted at Jakarta' means. The CVS repositories
are ASF respositories - there is no hierarchy grouping them as
'jakarta'. As for using the Jakarta website, the Jakarta community
would be responsible for it, and thus they will decide on it's
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something. That's commonly known as FUD.
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about
the future
How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?
-Harish
Henri Yandell wrote:
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote:
IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta -
since they are closely related to web development and server side java
(
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:00 -0500
(Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?)
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote:
How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no?
-Harish
+1. Agreed.
Why don't Jakarta adopt EU-like governance style?
(Board = Secretariat of the
Because it's wrong.
XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
Java Development and not in Jakarta.
If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact
it's in Java, or
Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the
Jakarta PMC etc.
The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website,
who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the
need to do mirrors.
If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other
That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java
web development or just plain web development?
-Harish
Henri Yandell wrote:
Because it's wrong.
XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all
Java Development and not in
Henri Yandell wrote:
Multiple PMCs is not a problem. There are James, Maven people on the
Jakarta PMC etc.
The idea below still concerns me. If all the PMC's share the same website,
who is responsible for the website as a global concept. For example, the
need to do mirrors.
If a Jakarta-Site
Ceki Gülcü wrote:
Good morning to all,
The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of
Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a
resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A
copy of the resolution can be found at:
Good morning to all,
The log4j developers are pleased to announce that the Board of
Directors of the Apache Software Foundation unanimously passed a
resolution for the creation of the Apache Logging Services project. A
copy of the resolution can be found at:
Not really (my POV)
As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy
ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject.
But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or
WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe
Bloggs works'. There simply is no one
I like the idea but does this mean we will be dumping the Jakarta banner? Or will it serve as an
incubator for TLPs? The Jakarta banner has earned quite a reputation and would be a shame to dump it.
-Harish
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Not really (my POV)
As people we naturally think in terms of
Quoting Stephen Colebourne [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Then try this:
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCPropsedChanges
It aims to be a starter course on why discssions about PMCs, TLPs, Jakarta
and the ASF appear, and possibly how they affect you. Be aware of the
disclaimer
Stephen Colebourne wrote:
Not really (my POV)
As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy
ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject.
But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or
WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe
Bloggs works'.
Henri Yandell wrote:
XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon,
James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta.
If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should
digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the
fact it's in Java,
Costin Manolache wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There
is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have:
[list of PMCs]
All without a single change to the Jakarta domain.
No one
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
This is FUD. No decisions are being made in private.
Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something. That's commonly known as FUD.
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remember what you said. You said that decisions were being made in
private.
Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too. Damn those
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:27 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
+1
If this is acceptable by the board then it's the ideal solution.
No changes to the email/website structure, jakarta remains the center
of the apache java development with a shared announcement list,
general list, news and download pages, ...
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where
it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?
-Harish
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Henri Yandell wrote:
If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible
for the website as a global concept. For example, the need
to do mirrors.
If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
are accepting the Jakarta Site PMC's oversight over their
I'm sure that Craig or other will correct my mistakes (I haven't been here
quite that long :).
Jakarta started as Tomcat and friends after Sun donated Tomcat to the ASF
(hence the name 'Jakarta' :). As the project grew (sign of success),
Jakarta grew to include projects that don't necessarily
Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta
and how it got to where
it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have?
-Harish
These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be)
Quoting Noel J. Bergman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Henri Yandell wrote:
If all the PMC's share the same website, who is responsible
for the website as a global concept. For example, the need
to do mirrors.
If a Jakarta-Site PMC exists, all other PMCs [jakarta sub-project based]
are
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