Re: [ANN] Apache's Position on the JSPA (was: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

2002-02-05 Thread Kevin A. Burton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> on 1/30/02 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
> > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
> > good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
> > seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
> > 
> > -Andy
> 
> Here is "what we want":
> 
> 
> 
> Kudo's to Jason Hunter for writing it.


I read it last night from CVS.

I just wanted to say that I am really proud and excited to see Apache stand up
for something!

Lets keep up the good work!  :)

Kevin

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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

That's awesome, I'll check that out!

On Thu, 2002-01-31 at 13:11, Scott Sanders wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:58 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" 
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it 
> > > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can 
> > you give me 
> > > > a good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that 
> > effect.  It 
> > > > just seems like we should be asking for something and being 
> > > > specific.
> > > > 
> > > > -Andy
> > > 
> > > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows 
> > exactly what 
> > > we want.
> > > 
> > > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes 
> > around here 
> > > that unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, 
> > discussions about 
> > > opening some of that up (including posting what we want to 
> > the public 
> > > site) are going on now.
> > > 
> > 
> > For starters:
> > I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same 
> > license as the rest of the JDK.
> > 
> > Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in 
> > uproar as I think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java 
> > Beans is such a poor standard, that I'm not particularly 
> > upset that its not *free*.  I should not say these things 
> > publicly, as I still have to work in these things, but in 
> > truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that 
> > elegant kludge.  
> > 
> > In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for 
> > compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors 
> > play too big of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room 
> > for proprietary extensions.  Its market one thing but 
> > actually sell another.
> > 
> > I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard 
> > that achieves the goals of EJBs without being limited by its 
> > faulty design and backward compatibility with its original 
> > faultier design.  Just my humble opinion on that.
> 
> Check out AJB in Avalon.
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-apps-dev&m=101158982807771&w=2
> 
> Uses AltRMI from the Commons to achieve RMI with extending Remote or
> throwing remote exception.  Now you can publish any class/interface
> remotely...
> 
> Cheers,
> Scott
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
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www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

2002-01-31 Thread Daniel Rall

Tim, BRAVO.

Daniel

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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-31 Thread Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 5:58 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it 
> > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can 
> you give me 
> > > a good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that 
> effect.  It 
> > > just seems like we should be asking for something and being 
> > > specific.
> > > 
> > > -Andy
> > 
> > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows 
> exactly what 
> > we want.
> > 
> > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes 
> around here 
> > that unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, 
> discussions about 
> > opening some of that up (including posting what we want to 
> the public 
> > site) are going on now.
> > 
> 
> For starters:
> I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same 
> license as the rest of the JDK.
> 
> Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in 
> uproar as I think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java 
> Beans is such a poor standard, that I'm not particularly 
> upset that its not *free*.  I should not say these things 
> publicly, as I still have to work in these things, but in 
> truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that 
> elegant kludge.  
> 
> In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for 
> compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors 
> play too big of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room 
> for proprietary extensions.  Its market one thing but 
> actually sell another.
> 
> I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard 
> that achieves the goals of EJBs without being limited by its 
> faulty design and backward compatibility with its original 
> faultier design.  Just my humble opinion on that.

Check out AJB in Avalon.
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=avalon-apps-dev&m=101158982807771&w=2

Uses AltRMI from the Commons to achieve RMI with extending Remote or
throwing remote exception.  Now you can publish any class/interface
remotely...

Cheers,
Scott


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RE: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

2002-01-31 Thread Steve Downey




> I have implemented a system using Container Managed EntityBeans that 
> worked fairly well. I used Jonas (it was some time ago). It 
> was smaller 
> than the original poster example (about 20 entity classes, tens of 
> thousands of instances). I spent a lot of time getting the 
> entity design 
> right. From the original description, it looks like the 
> problems in the 
> quoted project came from bad system design, more than from EJB 
> technology as such.
> 
> Comments on my experience:
> 
> - The location and engine independence was a true marvel. I was 
> developing with postgres/linux and deploying under 
> MSSQLServer/NT with 
> the same source code. Only small diffs in configuration needed.
> - Performance was not good, but scalability was.
> - Leaving transaction and persistence management to the 
> container proved 
> good at the end.
> - My main issue in the development were related with using 
> JSP for the 
> interface (JSP sucks (c) Jon :) )
> 
> So, while I agree with political/licensing issues being of concern, I 
> would not disqualify EJB as a whole from a technological 
> point of view. 
> YMMV.
> 

My experience with Distributed Object Systems goes back to early CORBA and
DCOM. I've seen about as many failures in just about every distributed
system, regardless of technology flavour. EJB is just the latest, and as
seems usual in our industry, lots of people are coming in, treating it as
green field development, and are making the same mistakes.

Mostly, they ignore that the choice of making a system distributed is
fundamental. You can not take an Object Model and arbitrarily cleave it and
produce a good Distributed Object Model. The worst case of this I ever saw
was a system that had String as a CORBA object. 

EJB also brings to the table all of the problems of the Object/Relational
impedance mismatch. It's an empirical fact at this point that rows in a
table are bad objects. They're data, and have no behavior. Turning them into
objects with container managed persistence doesn't make them good objects.
Objects are composed out of many rows spanning several tables. That's hard
to do with CMP.

Just my $0.02.

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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

2002-01-31 Thread Santiago Gala

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

>To be fair, WebSphere is probably more troublesome then the other
>containers (at least thats been my experience with it).  I do think 
>there is a time and place for RPC.  I however think better support for
>location independence is required. 
>
(snip)

>
>I would suggest gaining experience with other containers (BEA and jBoss
>for starters, you can download a trial of the former and the latter is
>opensource) so that you can discriminate the problems that are exist in
>WebSphere from those in EJBs as a whole.  Not because you want to just
>do "not-ejb" but so that you don't repeat the same mistakes.
>
I have implemented a system using Container Managed EntityBeans that 
worked fairly well. I used Jonas (it was some time ago). It was smaller 
than the original poster example (about 20 entity classes, tens of 
thousands of instances). I spent a lot of time getting the entity design 
right. From the original description, it looks like the problems in the 
quoted project came from bad system design, more than from EJB 
technology as such.

Comments on my experience:

- The location and engine independence was a true marvel. I was 
developing with postgres/linux and deploying under MSSQLServer/NT with 
the same source code. Only small diffs in configuration needed.
- Performance was not good, but scalability was.
- Leaving transaction and persistence management to the container proved 
good at the end.
- My main issue in the development were related with using JSP for the 
interface (JSP sucks (c) Jon :) )

So, while I agree with political/licensing issues being of concern, I 
would not disqualify EJB as a whole from a technological point of view. 
YMMV.




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Re: J2EE considered harmful (was [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml])

2002-01-31 Thread Tim Hyde

I've been lurking on this list for several years, and not speaking about
things I'm not contributing to.

But Andy's comment here about EJB & J2EE goes right to the point, and
triggers my passion ...

As an architect, I've been in 5 projects in the last 2.5 years where EJBs
were on the table, and in every case but one there have been overwhelming
reasons to avoid getting involved with that kind of technology. And in the
remaining case, it was already live when I came on board but thankfully the
designer had not used Entity Beans, which made it almost tolerable.

In the last project (a major customer-care callcenter app), they had used
Entity Beans, and Websphere, and there were 500 EJBs, and 4700 distinct
application classes. It took 2 days of continuous processing just to
'deploy' the beans, and I was called in when they found they couldn't meet
adequate performance. Related, of course to the modelling of the database
through Entity Beans. I won't go into the details, but believe me there were
big problems in just about every area I looked at, not least developer
productivity with the toolsets.

My advice was unreservedly to junk both EJB and Websphere, since any
competent designer could implement a solution with about a tenth of the
complexity involved, and with no need for these opaque tools that you can't
control.

Yes, EJB is a complete bodge of a design, and RPC invocation techniques
would only be acceptable if they were completely transparent, instead of
requiring you to do so much plumbing yourself. But personally, I think RPC
is entirely overrated, and it is a mistake to try to program as though a
remote call had the same characteristics as a local one.

The Pointy Haired Management are influenced by other views of the
marketplace, of course, but they don't really make any sense if you can see
where technology like this is likely to end up in the longer term. (i.e.
replaced by something better).

The rest of J2EE ? Well, Servlets is great, JSP is just about OK, (but of
course you really wanted a templating engine). And among the rest of the
APIs, there seem to be some that are OK, but an awful lot of it is pretty
mediocre. Overall, it is Java *not* living up to its early promise.

In summary, after a couple of years wondering 'Why am I the only person to
see this ?' it's a relief to see Andy's post.

I also remember seeing Jon's comment 'WAKE UP PEOPLE' a few weeks back
(before Outlook trashed my mailbase) and though I think he is commenting on
Sun's military strategy rather than the technicalities of EJB (am I right
there ?) I do think that we need a much more public protest about the
weakness of the technologies on offer - too many companies are forcing
developers down the J2EE path. DotNet doesn't have to be the winner from
such a protest, either.

There are much better ways to do things, and at present customised solutions
win hands-down on every count except 'common culture'.

I know this is not much Jakarta related (unless Jakarta can take on J2EE
directly ?), but it does seem a very important issue in the context of
server-side Java.

How much support exists for this point of view ? Does anyone have pointers
for areas where rational discontent is brewing in a less 'humble' form ?

- Tim

- Original Message -----
From: Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 31 January 2002 01:58
Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]


>
> On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
> > > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
> > > good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
> > > seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
> > >
> > > -Andy
> >
> > That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows exactly what we
> > want.
> >
> > There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes around here
that
> > unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, discussions about opening
some
> > of that up (including posting what we want to the public site) are going
on
> > now.
> >
>
> For starters:
> I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
> rest of the JDK.
>
> Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in uproar as I
> think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java Beans is such a poor
> standard, that I'm not particularly upset that its not *free*.  I should
> not say these things publicly, as I still have to work in these things,
> bu

Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 21:46, Peter Donald wrote:
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:58, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > For starters:
> > I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
> > rest of the JDK.
> 
> I think it is - or at least it used to be? The J2EE trademark is protected as 
> much as the Java trademark is - in some ways less in some ways more.  Ask Sun 
> whether you can have an opensource java impl and they will say "no because we 
> haven't revealed it all". The differenceis that J2EE also has significantly 
> more IP tied up in it that would possibly make it a difficult proposition to 
> cleanly rewrite - though this is the same with some parts of core java 
> classes (ie RMI and friends).
> 

>From my understanding you cannot distribute the j2ee jars and
technologies.  There also seems to be a strange clause that I admittedly
do not understand regarding development of technologies based on. 
Compatibility tests are one thing.  I could give a flip about branding
something as J2EE as it mostly serves to confuse business people.  (Do
you know how to do EJB?  What about J2EE?)  

> > In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
> > compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
> > of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
> > extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell another.
> 
> Isn't that the best way to advance technology? Leave room for vendors to play 
> and when the vendors have played with a feature long enough, merge the best 
> ideas together and develope a spec. It was a lot worse in past but with 
> auxilliary APIs/JSRs like deployment and management APIs coming out.
> 

Perhaps, the issue is how far.  Up to now at least, IMHO, they've leaned
more toward "please embrace and extend" and less toward standards based
technologies.  

-Andy

> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> ---
> "I would like to take you seriously but to do so would 
> affront your intelligence" -William F. Buckley, JR
> ---
> 
> 
> --
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-- 
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Peter Donald

On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 12:58, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> For starters:
> I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
> rest of the JDK.

I think it is - or at least it used to be? The J2EE trademark is protected as 
much as the Java trademark is - in some ways less in some ways more.  Ask Sun 
whether you can have an opensource java impl and they will say "no because we 
haven't revealed it all". The differenceis that J2EE also has significantly 
more IP tied up in it that would possibly make it a difficult proposition to 
cleanly rewrite - though this is the same with some parts of core java 
classes (ie RMI and friends).

> In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
> compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
> of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
> extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell another.

Isn't that the best way to advance technology? Leave room for vendors to play 
and when the vendors have played with a feature long enough, merge the best 
ideas together and develope a spec. It was a lot worse in past but with 
auxilliary APIs/JSRs like deployment and management APIs coming out.

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
"I would like to take you seriously but to do so would 
affront your intelligence" -William F. Buckley, JR
---


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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 21:31, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> At 08:58 PM 1/30/2002 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> >I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard that achieves
> >the goals of EJBs without being limited by its faulty design and
> >backward compatibility with its original faultier design.  Just my
> >humble opinion on that.
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more. Any ideas on how to make such an Open Source standard 
> a "standard" in a sense that it would be accepted by the IT community as 
> way to do things? Maybe some kind of a Standard Committee under apache and 
> a working reference implementation based on one of the existing projects?
> 

The short answer: "If you build it they will come".  I can help on this
later if someone(s) with an EJB situation (which I don't presently have)
can start the ball rolling.  I'm presently at capacity, but I'd love to
help out with the specs.

-Andy

> 
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> 
> 
> --
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-- 
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Andrus Adamchik

At 08:58 PM 1/30/2002 -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard that achieves
>the goals of EJBs without being limited by its faulty design and
>backward compatibility with its original faultier design.  Just my
>humble opinion on that.


Couldn't agree more. Any ideas on how to make such an Open Source standard 
a "standard" in a sense that it would be accepted by the IT community as 
way to do things? Maybe some kind of a Standard Committee under apache and 
a working reference implementation based on one of the existing projects?


~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
- Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 19:54, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
> > doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
> > good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
> > seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
> > 
> > -Andy
> 
> That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows exactly what we
> want.
> 
> There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes around here that
> unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, discussions about opening some
> of that up (including posting what we want to the public site) are going on
> now.
> 

For starters:
I think the J2EE stuff should be under at least the same license as the
rest of the JDK.

Personally I'm having a hard time getting particularly in uproar as I
think the central core of J2EE - Enterprise Java Beans is such a poor
standard, that I'm not particularly upset that its not *free*.  I should
not say these things publicly, as I still have to work in these things,
but in truth EJB and particularly Entity beans is a less that elegant
kludge.  

In truth J2EE is kind of a scam.  It claims to be aiming for
compatibility and universality but the truth is the vendors play too big
of a role in it.  They want to have lots of room for proprietary
extensions.  Its market one thing but actually sell another.

I'd rather see someone come up with an opensource standard that achieves
the goals of EJBs without being limited by its faulty design and
backward compatibility with its original faultier design.  Just my
humble opinion on that.

> This is fun.
> 
> p.s. The spec lead for JSR107 had a nice response to my complaints about the
> license issues for that JSR. It went something like this:
> 
> > As for the license, I can find no mention of Oracle requesting any money
> > for anything.  I seriously doubt if this license is significantly
> > different than licenses for JSP's sponsored by other companies.
> 
> Uh. Yea. Whatever dude.
> 

Right.  Why request money now?  I'll have to look at the JSR.  

> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
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-- 
www.superlinksoftware.com
www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Jon Scott Stevens

on 2002.1.30 4:15 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
> doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
> good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
> seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.
> 
> -Andy

That is a very good point. However, privately, Sun knows exactly what we
want.

There is still some stuff that goes on behind the scenes around here that
unfortunately isn't exposed. Needless to say, discussions about opening some
of that up (including posting what we want to the public site) are going on
now.

This is fun.

p.s. The spec lead for JSR107 had a nice response to my complaints about the
license issues for that JSR. It went something like this:

> As for the license, I can find no mention of Oracle requesting any money
> for anything.  I seriously doubt if this license is significantly
> different than licenses for JSP's sponsored by other companies.

Uh. Yea. Whatever dude.

-jon


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RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

I still say we need to say "This is what we want" not just "This is
f*cked up".  I think we should follow similar rules as to writing a
letter of complaint (even if it has a certain Jon/Apache-like flare) 
-Andy

On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 18:01, Scott Sanders wrote:
> +1.  + 1!  Why should Apache be silent if the process in NOT open?  Publicity is 
>what this needs.  C# is more open than the JCP, and that is really, really sad.  If 
>we can't express these opinions, who will?  I am personally glad that jon is the 
>outspoken person that he is.  If he wasn't, would have the balls to publish that???  
>I cannot guess anyone right off.
> 
> Scott Sanders
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:59 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > The Java Community Process (JCP) is not a "community" process 
> > at all. It's a way for Sun Inc. to claim they are open. You 
> > know it. I know it. Sun knows it. Let's stop deluding 
> > ourselves shall we?
> > 
> > I say we move "that flaming fireball" to the home page of *Apache*. 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Ceki
> > 
> > At 17:10 30.01.2002 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
> > >I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> > matter at the 
> > >top of the home page, and would like to move it to the news 
> > and status 
> > >page.
> > >
> > >-Ted.
> > >
> > > Original Message 
> > >Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> > >Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> > >
> > >  Modified:docs index.html
> > >   xdocsindex.xml
> > >  Log:
> > >  lets have a little fun.
> > >  
> > >  Revision  ChangesPath
> > >  1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
> > >  
> > >  Index: index.html  
> > > ===
> > >  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
> > >  retrieving revision 1.51
> > >  retrieving revision 1.52
> > >  diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
> > >  --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
> > >  +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
> > >  @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
> > > 
> >  
> > >
> > > 
> > >   
> > >  +  That
> > >flaming fireball in the sky...
> > >  +
> > >  +  
> > >  +  
> > >  +
> > >  +
> > >  +In a recent  > >href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su
> > nInterview
> > >">article,
> > >Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
> > >  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> > >  +
> > >  +
> > >  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> > momentum over the
> > >  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> > source efforts
> > >  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> > >  +
> > >  +
> > >  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether 
> > J2EE licensing
> > >  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> > it, it does).
> > >  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
> > >Community
> > >  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
> > >that
> > >  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> > >  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> > >  +licensing terms, feel free to contact  > >href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> > know what you
> > >  +think. Thanks.
> > >  +
> > >  +
> > >  +
> > >  +  
> > >  +  
> >

RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

My only issue and I guess this is directed more at you Jon, is it
doesn't give me a clear idea about "what we want".  Can you give me a
good idea and I'll be glad to submit a patch to that effect.  It just
seems like we should be asking for something and being specific.

-Andy


On Wed, 2002-01-30 at 17:53, Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> Sometimes I (argh!) love Jon!
> =;o)
> 
> Paulo
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:07 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > Why is that?
> > 
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> > > matter at the top of the home page, and would like to move it 
> > > to the news and status page. 
> > > 
> > > -Ted.
> > > 
> > >  Original Message 
> > > Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> > > Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > 
> > > jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> > > 
> > >   Modified:docs index.html
> > >xdocsindex.xml
> > >   Log:
> > >   lets have a little fun.
> > >   
> > >   Revision  ChangesPath
> > >   1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
> > >   
> > >   Index: index.html
> > >   ===
> > >   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
> > >   retrieving revision 1.51
> > >   retrieving revision 1.52
> > >   diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
> > >   --- index.html  29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
> > >   +++ index.html  30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
> > >   @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
> > >   
> > > 
> > >  
> > >
> > >   +  That
> > > flaming fireball in the sky...
> > >   +
> > >   +  
> > >   +  
> > >   +
> > >   +
> > >   +In a recent  > > href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Sun
> > > Interview">article,
> > > Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
> > >   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> > >   +
> > >   +
> > >   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> > > momentum over the
> > >   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> > > source efforts
> > >   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> > >   +
> > >   +
> > >   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> > > licensing
> > >   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> > > it, it does).
> > >   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> > > Java Community
> > >   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> > > to claim that
> > >   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> > >   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> > >   +licensing terms, feel free to contact  > > href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> > > know what you
> > >   +think. Thanks.
> > >   +
> > >   +
> > >   +
> > >   +  
> > >   +  
> > >   +
> > >   + > > cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
> > >   +  
> > >   +
> > >  Welcome
> > >
> > >  
> > >   
> > >   
> > >   

RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Scott Sanders

+1.  + 1!  Why should Apache be silent if the process in NOT open?  Publicity is 
+what this needs.  C# is more open than the JCP, and that is really, really sad.  If 
+we can't express these opinions, who will?  I am personally glad that jon is the 
+outspoken person that he is.  If he wasn't, would have the balls to publish that???  
+I cannot guess anyone right off.

Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:59 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> 
> The Java Community Process (JCP) is not a "community" process 
> at all. It's a way for Sun Inc. to claim they are open. You 
> know it. I know it. Sun knows it. Let's stop deluding 
> ourselves shall we?
> 
> I say we move "that flaming fireball" to the home page of *Apache*. 
> 
> -- 
> Ceki
> 
> At 17:10 30.01.2002 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
> >I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> matter at the 
> >top of the home page, and would like to move it to the news 
> and status 
> >page.
> >
> >-Ted.
> >
> > Original Message 
> >Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> >Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> >
> >  Modified:docs index.html
> >   xdocsindex.xml
> >  Log:
> >  lets have a little fun.
> >  
> >  Revision  ChangesPath
> >  1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
> >  
> >  Index: index.html  
> > ===
> >  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
> >  retrieving revision 1.51
> >  retrieving revision 1.52
> >  diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
> >  --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
> >  +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
> >  @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
> > 
>  
> >
> > 
> >   
> >  +  That
> >flaming fireball in the sky...
> >  +
> >  +  
> >  +  
> >  +
> >  +
> >  +In a recent  >href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su
> nInterview
> >">article,
> >Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
> >  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> >  +
> >  +
> >  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> momentum over the
> >  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> source efforts
> >  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> >  +
> >  +
> >  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether 
> J2EE licensing
> >  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> it, it does).
> >  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
> >Community
> >  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
> >that
> >  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> >  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> >  +licensing terms, feel free to contact  >href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> know what you
> >  +think. Thanks.
> >  +
> >  +
> >  +
> >  +  
> >  +  
> >  +
> >  + >cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
> >  +  
> >  +
> > Welcome
> >   
> > 
> >  
> >  
> >  
> >  1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
> >  
> >  Index: index.xml  
> > ===
> >  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
> >  retrieving revision 1.20
> >  retrieving revision 1.21
> >  diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
> >  --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
> >  +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
> >  @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
> >

Re: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Ceki Gülcü


The Java Community Process (JCP) is not a "community" process at
all. It's a way for Sun Inc. to claim they are open. You know it. I
know it. Sun knows it. Let's stop deluding ourselves shall we?

I say we move "that flaming fireball" to the home page of *Apache*. 

-- 
Ceki

At 17:10 30.01.2002 -0500, Ted Husted wrote:
>I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial matter at the
>top of the home page, and would like to move it to the news and status
>page. 
>
>-Ted.
>
> Original Message 
>Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
>Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
>
>  Modified:docs index.html
>   xdocsindex.xml
>  Log:
>  lets have a little fun.
>  
>  Revision  ChangesPath
>  1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
>  
>  Index: index.html
>  ===
>  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
>  retrieving revision 1.51
>  retrieving revision 1.52
>  diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
>  --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
>  +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
>  @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
>  
>
> 
>   
>  +  That
>flaming fireball in the sky...
>  +
>  +  
>  +  
>  +
>  +
>  +In a recent href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=SunInterview";>article,
>Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
>  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
>  +
>  +
>  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the
>  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts
>  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
>  +
>  +
>  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing
>  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does).
>  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
>Community
>  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
>that
>  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
>  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
>  +licensing terms, feel free to contact href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us know what you
>  +think. Thanks.
>  +
>  +
>  +
>  +  
>  +  
>  +
>  +cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
>  +  
>  +
> Welcome
>   
> 
>  
>  
>  
>  1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
>  
>  Index: index.xml
>  ===
>  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
>  retrieving revision 1.20
>  retrieving revision 1.21
>  diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
>  --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
>  +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
>  @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
>   
>   
>   
>  +
>  +
>  +In a recent  
>+href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=SunInterview";
>  +>article, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and
>Platform
>  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
>  +
>  +
>  +
>  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the
>  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts
>  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
>  +
>  +
>  +
>  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing
>  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does).
>  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
>Community
>  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
>that
>  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
>  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
>  +licensing terms, feel free to contact   +href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us know what
>you
>  +think. Thanks.
>  +
>  +
>  +
>  +
>   
>   
>   

RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Paulo Gaspar

Sometimes I (argh!) love Jon!
=;o)

Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 11:07 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> Why is that?
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> > 
> > 
> > I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> > matter at the top of the home page, and would like to move it 
> > to the news and status page. 
> > 
> > -Ted.
> > 
> >  Original Message 
> > Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> > Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> > 
> >   Modified:docs index.html
> >xdocsindex.xml
> >   Log:
> >   lets have a little fun.
> >   
> >   Revision  ChangesPath
> >   1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
> >   
> >   Index: index.html
> >   ===
> >   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
> >   retrieving revision 1.51
> >   retrieving revision 1.52
> >   diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
> >   --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
> >   +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
> >   @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
> >   
> > 
> >  
> >
> >   +  That
> > flaming fireball in the sky...
> >   +
> >   +  
> >   +  
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In a recent  > href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Sun
> > Interview">article,
> > Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
> >   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> > momentum over the
> >   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> > source efforts
> >   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> > licensing
> >   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> > it, it does).
> >   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> > Java Community
> >   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> > to claim that
> >   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
> >   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
> >   +licensing terms, feel free to contact  > href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> > know what you
> >   +think. Thanks.
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +  
> >   +  
> >   +
> >   + > cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
> >   +  
> >   +
> >  Welcome
> >
> >  
> >   
> >   
> >   
> >   1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
> >   
> >   Index: index.xml
> >   ===
> >   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
> >   retrieving revision 1.20
> >   retrieving revision 1.21
> >   diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
> >   --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
> >   +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
> >   @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
> >
> >
> >
> >   +
> >   +
> >   +In a recent  >  
> > +href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su
> > nInterview
> > +"
> >   +>article, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility 
> > and Platform
> >   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
> > 

RE: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Scott Sanders

Why is that?

> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 2:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]
> 
> 
> I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial 
> matter at the top of the home page, and would like to move it 
> to the news and status page. 
> 
> -Ted.
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
> Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> jon 02/01/30 13:53:04
> 
>   Modified:docs index.html
>xdocsindex.xml
>   Log:
>   lets have a little fun.
>   
>   Revision  ChangesPath
>   1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
>   
>   Index: index.html
>   ===
>   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
>   retrieving revision 1.51
>   retrieving revision 1.52
>   diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
>   --- index.html  29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
>   +++ index.html  30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
>   @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
>   
> 
>  
>
>   +  That
> flaming fireball in the sky...
>   +
>   +  
>   +  
>   +
>   +
>   +In a recent  href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Sun
> Interview">article,
> Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
>   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
>   +
>   +
>   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> momentum over the
>   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> source efforts
>   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
>   +
>   +
>   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> licensing
>   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> it, it does).
>   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> Java Community
>   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> to claim that
>   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
>   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
>   +licensing terms, feel free to contact  href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> know what you
>   +think. Thanks.
>   +
>   +
>   +
>   +  
>   +  
>   +
>   + cellspacing="0" cellpadding="2" width="100%">
>   +  
>   +
>  Welcome
>
>  
>   
>   
>   
>   1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
>   
>   Index: index.xml
>   ===
>   RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
>   retrieving revision 1.20
>   retrieving revision 1.21
>   diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
>   --- index.xml   20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
>   +++ index.xml   30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
>   @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
>
>
>
>   +
>   +
>   +In a recent   
> +href="http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=Su
> nInterview
> +"
>   +>article, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility 
> and Platform
>   +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
>   +
>   +
>   +
>   +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant 
> momentum over the
>   +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open 
> source efforts
>   +don't impact the viability of that effort."
>   +
>   +
>   +
>   +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE 
> licensing
>   +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed 
> it, it does).
>   +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the 
> Java Community
>   +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun 
> to claim that
>   +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
>   +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
>   +licensing terms, feel free to contact+href="mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us 
> know what you
>   +think. Thanks.
>   +
>   +
>   +
>   +
>
>
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:  
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, 
> e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
> 

--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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[Fwd: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml]

2002-01-30 Thread Ted Husted

I'm not comfortable with carrying this type of editorial matter at the
top of the home page, and would like to move it to the news and status
page. 

-Ted.

 Original Message 
Subject: cvs commit: jakarta-site2/xdocs index.xml
Date: 30 Jan 2002 21:53:04 -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: "Jakarta WebSite CVS List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

jon 02/01/30 13:53:04

  Modified:docs index.html
   xdocsindex.xml
  Log:
  lets have a little fun.
  
  Revision  ChangesPath
  1.52  +32 -0 jakarta-site2/docs/index.html
  
  Index: index.html
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/docs/index.html,v
  retrieving revision 1.51
  retrieving revision 1.52
  diff -u -r1.51 -r1.52
  --- index.html29 Jan 2002 01:47:06 -  1.51
  +++ index.html30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.52
  @@ -140,6 +140,38 @@
  

 
   
  +  That
flaming fireball in the sky...
  +
  +  
  +  
  +
  +
  +In a recent http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=SunInterview";>article,
Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and Platform
  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
  +
  +
  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the
  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts
  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
  +
  +
  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing
  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does).
  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
Community
  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
that
  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
  +licensing terms, feel free to contact mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us know what you
  +think. Thanks.
  +
  +
  +
  +  
  +  
  +
  +
  +  
  +
 Welcome
   
 
  
  
  
  1.21  +28 -0 jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml
  
  Index: index.xml
  ===
  RCS file: /home/cvs/jakarta-site2/xdocs/index.xml,v
  retrieving revision 1.20
  retrieving revision 1.21
  diff -u -r1.20 -r1.21
  --- index.xml 20 Jan 2002 16:28:07 -  1.20
  +++ index.xml 30 Jan 2002 21:53:03 -  1.21
  @@ -9,6 +9,34 @@
   
   
   
  +
  +
  +In a recent http://www.theserverside.com/resources/article.jsp?l=SunInterview";
  +>article, Karen Tegan, Director of J2EE Compatibility and
Platform
  +Services for Sun Microsystems, had the following to say:
  +
  +
  +
  +"The J2EE Compatible brand has achieved significant momentum over the
  +past two years, and we want to make sure that any open source efforts
  +don't impact the viability of that effort."
  +
  +
  +
  +In other words, Sun doesn't give a hoot about whether J2EE licensing
  +restricts open source J2EE products (in case you missed it, it does).
  +Thus, the Apache Software Foundation's involvement in the Java
Community
  +Process (JCP) is simply an advertising statement for Sun to claim
that
  +they have a 'vision which uses open standards and non-proprietary
  +interfaces'. If you would like to express your opinions of Sun's
  +licensing terms, feel free to contact mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]";>[EMAIL PROTECTED] and let us know what
you
  +think. Thanks.
  +
  +
  +
  +