Re: Is open source unamerican...
Pier, I am not sure that Allaire is entirely insane. He says: Open source is an intellectual-property destroyer ... I can't imagine something that could be worse than this for the software business and the intellectual-property business. It takes a huge amount of effort to build reliable general purpose software. In open source we give it away for nothing. Users rush to OSS because they get something valuable for free. If I could eat for free at the Greek restaurant around the corner, I'd eat there 7 times a week even tough it is smoky and I happen to prefer Turkish cuisine. :-) Unfortunately, the restaurant owner does not see things the same way. What is the economic model behind OSS? I am not 100% sure OSS can scale to become a really big industry. No one in the OSS business is making money except perhaps Tim O'Reilly. Btw, his company keeps 90% of the revenue. The author gets 10%. I repeat: 90% for the paper, 10% for IP. So much for IP. OSS seems so successful because few individuals can make a huge difference. Linus is doing OSS because some bigger company thinks it's good publicity. Many OSS authors have a patron behind them much like scholars and artists did a few centuries ago. However, I dread the day when OSS becomes so successful as to kill (not just weaken) software businesses such as Microsoft. What's the point of developing software if chances for getting any revenue are slim? This is all rhetorical of course. In today's world, you land a 100'000$ job if you can spell Java. This situation of plenty might not last for ever, especially if all the world's software needs were to be fulfilled by OSS. Beware of what you wish for as you might just get it. Just my 2 counter cents. Ceki ps: Oh, coming back to MS, I think it's very "unamerican" to label competition "unamerican" but the bigger the lie is... At 18:19 17.02.2001 -0800, you wrote: I found this on another mailing list completely unrelated to Open Source, and I believe it makes more sense around here :) Microsoft has completely lost its mind... http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2001/02/15/unamerican/index.html Pier -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ceki Glc Web: http://qos.ch av. de Rumine 5 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (preferred) CH-1005 Lausanne [EMAIL PROTECTED] Switzerland Tel: ++41 21 351 23 15 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source unamerican...
Hi Ceki! Long mail follows. Ceki Glc wrote: Pier, I am not sure that Allaire is entirely insane. He says: Open source is an intellectual-property destroyer ... I can't imagine something that could be worse than this for the software business and the intellectual-property business. It takes a huge amount of effort to build reliable general purpose software. In open source we give it away for nothing. Users rush to OSS because they get something valuable for free. If I could eat for free at the Greek restaurant around the corner, I'd eat there 7 times a week even tough it is smoky and I happen to prefer Turkish cuisine. :-) Unfortunately, the restaurant owner does not see things the same way. Nobody is saying that software should be "free" in that sense -- essentially what is called "gratis" in Spanish. It should be "free" as in "freedom". The situation as it stands now might perhaps be explained with another foodstuff example. You can go to the local restaurant and ask to have your food served without salt -- you may want your steak raw, or burnt. Perhaps you don't want dressing with it. And then you can go to Macdonald's and get one of those nice little packages where they have put it all together for you. Now imagine they didn't allow you to take out the onion -- and the package explicitly disallowed you to look inside the bread. It would be very convenient for them, since they might package all kinds of stuff without your knowing. But I sure want to know what I'm eating, and that's why I don't like going to fast-food joints. You may even eat at home -- it's cheaper, but you get to DoItYourself. Nobody will propose that home cooking should be forbidden for restaurants to thrive, and yet that is exactly what Allaire says. The basic difference is, food ingredients cost money, software ingredients do not. Microsoft hacks a program once, and then sell the product a zillion times. This economy of scale is unprecedented, except perhaps in the intellectual property business. Microsoft earns a disproportionate amount of money with it. What is the economic model behind OSS? I am not 100% sure OSS can scale to become a really big industry. No one in the OSS business is making money except perhaps Tim O'Reilly. Btw, his company keeps 90% of the revenue. The author gets 10%. I repeat: 90% for the paper, 10% for IP. So much for IP. There's a rock-solid economic model in hardware. You don't go to the computer shop and say: I want an open-source Pentium III with an open-source 17" monitor. I haven't yet heard an OSS proponent ask for free iron to run Linux. There's an economic model in services. You don't get Linux installed for free -- either you DIY or contract with a company. And there's an economic model for companies that get involved in open source. Apple, Sun, IBM -- the biggies are slowly getting it. Even the most draconian of OSS licenses, GPL, is accepted and built upon by them. Why? just because they earn more money with it. OSS seems so successful because few individuals can make a huge difference. Linus is doing OSS because some bigger company thinks it's good publicity. Many OSS authors have a patron behind them much like scholars and artists did a few centuries ago. However, I dread the day when OSS becomes so successful as to kill (not just weaken) software businesses such as Microsoft. What's the point of developing software if chances for getting any revenue are slim? This is all rhetorical of course. In today's world, you land a 100'000$ job if you can spell Java. This situation of plenty might not last for ever, especially if all the world's software needs were to be fulfilled by OSS. Beware of what you wish for as you might just get it. Just my 2 counter cents. The question is, there's a huge demand for software this days. But most people are reinventing the wheel at each company; we don't build upon other folks' work. The real problem in the software industry is that more than 1/2 of all projects are cancelled -- they fail. And most projects that are eventually completed are over budget and buggy as hell. This is what is giving us developers a bad image, and in the long term is very harmful for the industry as a whole. If all of us had good frameworks and utilities to build upon, we'd do more work -- and of better quality. Most of the software in the world is done for banks and the military, and most of the rest is for vertical markets. The small remainder is what would be most benefited by OSS. (I can post hard data to back up my assertments, if you don't believe them.) Microsoft is not threatened because OSS software is gratis; Microsoft is threatened because they have a monopoly upon systems software for Intel machines. All the "evil" empire stands on a very antiamerican base, and that is what Linux threatens. But I don't see the likes of Adobe, IBM and Blizzard Entertainment troubled in the least by the
Re: Is open source unamerican...
On Thu, Feb 22, 2001 at 08:35:43AM +1100, Green, Alan wrote: Ceki Glc wrote: I am not sure that Allaire is entirely insane. He says: Open source is an intellectual-property destroyer ... I can't imagine something that could be worse than this for the software business and the intellectual-property business. Shouldn't this be attributed to Jim Allchin, "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief"??? (http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html) Actually, it looks like he meant the GPL specifically. But is this a common topic around here, or should I stay subscribed and wait for less political content? http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/zd/20010220/tc/microsoft_clarifies_exec_s_open-source_concerns_1.html -- Adam Haberlach| All your base are belong to us. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.newsnipple.com | '88 EX500'00 ^ | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is open source unamerican...
Ceki Glc wrote: I am not sure that Allaire is entirely insane. He says: Open source is an intellectual-property destroyer ... I can't imagine something that could be worse than this for the software business and the intellectual-property business. Shouldn't this be attributed to Jim Allchin, "Microsoft Corp.'s Windows operating-system chief"??? (http://news.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-4825719-RHAT.html) a - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is open source unamerican...
Hi guys! This is what I think about Open Source being "unamerican" First of all, let me tell you that I am not North American I am Venezuelan (that's South Amarican) and my parents are Cuban, so let me tell you that Open Source isn't comunism, Open Source IS Freedom, in the sense that you are free to choose what really works best for you, what ever that means. It is simply your choice! Now I call that freedom. Microsoft usually forgets that they are not the only ones that undestands technology, sure they have great people, but what they forget is that must of us understand technology too, must of us work every day with technology, must of us have found that their mediocre software solutions are not up to the task, are missing essential features we need(not what they think we need) or are just plain too unstable (who wants to work extra time restoring a server that has just crashed?) We have found a way to fix problems to our everyday tasks, and create great solutions along that way. WE ARE GREAT SOFTWARE DESIGNERS TOO, once again, WE ARE GREAT SOFTWARE DESIGNERS!, and that is something that really counts. We can design software solutions that are far better that anything MS has(Tomcat, Cocoon, Apache) Microsoft thinks that they can create software solutions for every need that we had, that we have, and that probably we will have in the future! Calling that a Intelectual Propertry Destroyer (---what this mean any way?) is something that I don't get. Does this mean that we should only use things that we can buy? Things with a brand on it? What happens when "Intelectual Property" stuff is not up to the task? Are we going to pay for something that it is not worth? Would any one here pay for something he or she doesn't need? Do you go to the must expensive store? Do you buy without payinng attention to the price ticket? Microsoft imagines a world with only one operating system, one office suite, one data baseThis vision really looks like Comunism to me, or worst like a Science Fiction story of some uncertain and obscure future. If you play the futurist role just for a second, think that probably we will have must electronic a consumers goods and stuff with a OS embbeded on it. Do you think that MS should be everywhere! In your car, your watch, your microwave, your bank, your air plane, or even in the life supporting equipment that is helping someone to breath? You can call me paranoic, but really just for a moment... Second point is about the so called "American Way"; although you probably have another point of view with this. Is making money all there is "American" in the phrase? So making money and doing clean bussines and being proud of it (like you should!) is a an important part of it. But what about sharing, working together, and helping each others? A great country isn't built around frontiers, that is mine, thats yours. You people (North American) built a great country with hard work, sharing what you have, with a great sense of freedom and humans rights, and with a great sense of what is the best for the whole (community, country) in your mind! Your model is so good and fare, that it has been imitated by a great deal of countries, sure you have problems, but who hasn't? I can't imagine somthing more american that the spirit of collaboration, sharing and the sense of community that we share! If anybody here whats to sell what we have produce or sell the support we are free to do it? The american way! When a tragedy occurs in the United States, like a earthquake, a bomb, a plane crash, It is amazing the way the WHOLE country moves and reacts as one to solve the problems, for this insignificant and ignorant outsider, that is the American Way, help each others, collaborate, do what is best for all, not for individuals. Doesn't "help each other", "collaborate", "solve problems", "sense of community", "freedom", "choice", "support", "innovation" what makes the american way the succesful model it is? Well,"help each other", "collaborate", "solve problems", "sense of community", "freedom", "choice", "support" and "innovation" is what makes Open Source model the succesful proyect and model it is, just like the american way, the real one, the whole one, not just a small fraction of it! Victor Medina Universidad Tecnologica del Centro Valencia-Venezuela [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Is open source unamerican...
"They were pursuing their own happiness without regard to revenue generation or market share. What could be more American than that?" hmm, doesn't sound American to me - sounds more like socialism. Not that I agree or disagree with MS - but those lines are just wrong. American == Capitalism == Market share == IMHO anyway. -Dug "Pier P. Fumagalli" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/17/2001 09:19:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Is open source "unamerican"... I found this on another mailing list completely unrelated to Open Source, and I believe it makes more sense around here :) Microsoft has completely lost its mind... http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2001/02/15/unamerican/index.html Pier -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is open source unamerican...
The American way should be about having equality and the reasonable freedom to do what you want. Just because many people have used this freedom to obtain massive amounts of money and power, does not mean it is the American way. In fact it is almost anti American in a way because these people usually interfere with the freedom of others by becoming very dominate and controlling (can anyone say dictatorship). Now I'm not against making money, in fact I love making money, but I also value freedom and equality for myself and others. What ever a person/company does with their code, sell it, give it away, throw it away or what ever, the bottom line is that it is their choice to do as they please with it and that is the American way. I respects Microsofts owners decision to sell it's products and make money, but I don't respect many of its dictatorship like actions. -david -Original Message- From: Doug Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 6:51 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is open source "unamerican"... "They were pursuing their own happiness without regard to revenue generation or market share. What could be more American than that?" hmm, doesn't sound American to me - sounds more like socialism. Not that I agree or disagree with MS - but those lines are just wrong. American == Capitalism == Market share == IMHO anyway. -Dug "Pier P. Fumagalli" [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 02/17/2001 09:19:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] cc: Subject: Is open source "unamerican"... I found this on another mailing list completely unrelated to Open Source, and I believe it makes more sense around here :) Microsoft has completely lost its mind... http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2001/02/15/unamerican/index.html Pier -- -- -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Is open source unamerican...
How Ironic, the very thing that Microsoft conveyed during anti trust trials, which is "innovation" and government intervention would only stifle it, apparently does not apply to us I guessed? -Original Message- From: Pier P. Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 6:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Is open source "unamerican"... I found this on another mailing list completely unrelated to Open Source, and I believe it makes more sense around here :) Microsoft has completely lost its mind... http://www.salon.com/tech/log/2001/02/15/unamerican/index.html Pier -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
