Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote: It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C# thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful??? mickysoft ? Hmmm ... The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not. Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an open platform but wont be because it is not. Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a bit premature don't you think? Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of other parts of these projects aswell. There is also external ports of other projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do. I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs. However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also do so. Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in. -- Cheers, Pete Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code than Sun Microsystems? Hmmm? Guess I must have missed the banana boat on this one. I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more restrictive. Yah, that's the ticket. Why don't we get a dialogue going on why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter, if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background. Micael At 07:12 PM 2/25/02 +1100, you wrote: On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote: It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C# thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful??? mickysoft ? Hmmm ... The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not. Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an open platform but wont be because it is not. Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a bit premature don't you think? Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of other parts of these projects aswell. There is also external ports of other projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do. I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements in the core framework that it will be good enough for almost all my needs. However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also do so. Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in. -- Cheers, Pete Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -- Voltaire -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code than Sun Microsystems? err ... you trolling ? guess so. I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more restrictive. actually the C# language is less restrictive. The PMC head of jakarta actually sits as a spec lead (or chair or whatever the ECMA calls it) on one of the standardization groups. Compare this to the Java language which can not be reimplemented outside of sun legally. Fun eh? Of course no need to lets facts get in the way pof a good religion. Why don't we get a dialogue going on why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem a few people have tried that and look where it got. rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter, if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background. intelligent argument. I think you left out phrases like Microshaft or Micro$loth or whatever it is you kiddies use these days. -- Cheers, Pete *--* | Despite your efforts to be a romantic hero, you will | | gradually evolve into a postmodern plot device. | *--* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole group! -Andy On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Thanx, Andy. There have been such rumours! ;-) At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote: Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole group! -Andy On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Darn...and I was saving that one for April 1 :-) On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:43:05 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. Thanx, Andy. There have been such rumours! ;-) At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote: Yes! Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this big farce.. We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to Bill! Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole group! -Andy On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On 2/24/02 01:28, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ I admit that I have fear and loathing of the .NET moniker and all that Microsoft is associating it with. But as far as the CLI and the class libraries, well, quite frankly they don't suck. They're not great, I prefer Java, but they don't suck. Java will still be around for a long time no matter what happens. It's been too important an event in software engineering to become dead. But the licensing issues are going to have a non trivial effect on what happens. Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. Heh. :) .:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On 2/24/02 13:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? Troll. .:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
I keep telling you: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ Get this guy to release it APL and then we can get up and go! :-) -Andy On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 04:28, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and run them on Cocoon? Rats ... :-) Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
You laugh... IT HAS BEEN PROPOSED!!! http://www.mail-archive.com/cocoon-dev@xml.apache.org/msg10094.html On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 15:20, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: On Sun, 24 Feb 2002, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. I thought you already did ... you mean I *cannot* write device drivers and run them on Cocoon? Rats ... :-) Craig -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.superlinksoftware.com http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
To build on what Micael said, It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C# thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful??? Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C# is a bit premature don't you think? /Colin Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java? That amazes me. Do you guys work for Microsoft? At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote: James Duncan Davidson wrote: On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. uh, I take this as a compliment :) sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. Wise words, brother, wise words. But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/ Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to avoid all this. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On 2/5/02 08:24, Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something like this about June of 2002. sigh You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not worth fighting all the battles at once. .:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (snip) They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) possible. They're going about it the wrong way (still). small - embedded (J2ME) pipe dream. If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang win. No. Bytecodes + built-in security (sandboxes, etc.) make java a substantial win for Telephone operators. C# is not yet prepared for taking this market. Solutions like ActiveX are a mess to deploy and suffer from logistic (deploy for a hundred hardware variants), reliability (crashes in user C/C++ code) and big security problems (bad security model). The telephones that we will see in the next couple of years will use java. And this is a substantial market (in the thousands of millions units) where Sun wants to take their license for every telephone sold, and sell at the same time their java hardware and expertise (read J2EE) in the server side to the operators and service providers. If it stays small, Palm and KR win. Sun has to bet on something in between or start making Java native chips again.. Its a pipe dream of a business plan. I think it is actually working well for Sun, from what I see in their relation with big mobile operators and handset makers. Whether Sun will survive to a mature multiplatform C# solution with the ability to run java applets (midlets...) is another thing. Don't forget that Microsoft are better when they arrive second to the market (see IBM MS-DOS, Digital Research solution vs Windows, Lotus/Excel, WordPerfect/Word, dBase/SQL Server,...) why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). don't forget that they have a good sales channel to big corporations like banks, phone operators, utility companies,... Quite often better than the one MS has. Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. perhaps. I feel like I'm legacy myself. I feel lazy about switching to C# stuff. I feel older every day that passes ;) Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to mak e java solid. probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's interests, if that changes so does Sun). I agree that we have been used. We are used every day. But I feel happy overall with my java experience. Programming in java is funny (like it was in the Smalltalk days, even with some lisps). Programming against current MS APIs is *not* fun. I don't feel abused by the Sun people WRT java. From the beginning I saw Sun as I see them now. Even if I regret that they do not Open Source java, the market will never be the same after their (wise) move back then. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend. If maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an objective for Mono then it will fail. The 3000 lb gorilla will never loose control of its illegitimate child. Regarding C#. I still think I'd rather learn D www.digitalmars.com/d I've seen they still have pointers. I will not go there until they drop them. ;) WRT crossplatform stuff, time is coming when we will impose *our* laws. With linux becoming a major player in the OS level (and I bet it will be a player in the desktop market real soon), crossplatform is beginning to be their problem, rather than ours. As OpenSource works in public, with no hidden
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 11:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. BUT THERE WON'T BE! you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy I don't respond to personal attacks. If you think thats a personal attack then ... the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed). Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage from COM and .NET etc. Have you actually looked at the language? er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is enough to make it one of the best releases yet. So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as I know and what was pushed back etc. Hmmm .. NIO has always been in jdk1.4 - not sure why you would think it is not. Som stuff will be added to it in the future I suspect - specifically support for things like Unix domain sockets + named pipes will probably be present in jdk1.5 depending on who wins out on the EG :) -- Cheers, Pete --- Don't take life too seriously -- you'll never get out of it alive. --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
snip/ Become a strategist. There will always a need for people telling people what they should do next. At least for people that does not read these lists. ;) Where do I sign? :-) I'm always happy telling people what they should do next ;-). -Andy -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting. Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize bytecode, crapola linking model, etc). *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting. If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly fall down in that area. It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux peeps then who knows ;) -- Cheers, Pete You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by definition, half of them are even dumber than that! J.R. Bob Dobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of just software. They already sell services :) -- Arnaud, STE-Formations Informatiques, fapse, ULg, .BE -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
+1 Kevin A. Burton wrote: Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. ... hm.. this discussion could be on the list... buy anyway. -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA. -- Java Web Development with Struts. -- Tel +1 585 737-3463. -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting. Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on Linux. Technically there are things about C#/CLR/etc that are far superior to Java (much better meta-data support, no JNI pain, a nicer GUI setup, support for C based languages, etc) and theres also things that suck (hard to optimize bytecode, crapola linking model, etc). True, but if past predictors continue to hold, there will never be a version that runs reliably on another platform. And windows is a very crappy platform. (I can do Solaris, UNIX, I prefer Linux but I can cope with other good OSes) *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. BUT THERE WON'T BE! That's the kicker. If we're just talking about Java alternatives, I'm falling more in love (from a distance) with the D language. It needs bytecode, etc (but I think the platform should evolve in the language perhaps but separately from it) I don't think Sun will lose on high-end or the embedded device market but everywhere else I think is debatable ;) A lot of people I know who are java advocates have seriously looked at swapping to C# - at least for the desktop. Given how weak the C# runtime is now (at least compared to java) this I find interesting. Microsoft people will of course switch to it. People who need serious servers will need something that runs on UNIX. If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly fall down in that area. So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of time its taken. Mostly candy no meat. It will be interesting to see how IBM reacts. They have some damn fine VM people there, if they were to go the C# path and bring along all the Linux peeps then who knows ;) I've never had much luck with IBM's JDKs. I seem to be the guy who always runs into some horrible bug. -Andy -- Cheers, Pete You know what a dumbshit the 'average man' on the street is? Well, by definition, half of them are even dumber than that! J.R. Bob Dobbs -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting. Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on Linux. Peter is correct. A few links (you can see my name in the first one): http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/MEMENTO/TC39-G3.HTM http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/NEWS/NEWS.HTM http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLIFAQ.asp For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment). Note: there are some people who view open source implementations of .Net as controversial as, say, open source implementations of popular MS file formats, for pretty much the same reasons. For my part, I have no interest in sticking it to Sun. Or to Microsoft for that matter. I simply want to see more of us working together. That's why I integrated PHP and Java. That's why I created Gump. That's why I participate in these standards. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Peter is correct. A few links (you can see my name in the first one): http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/MEMENTO/TC39-G3.HTM http://www.ecma.ch/ecma1/NEWS/NEWS.HTM http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp I was aware of this. I saw your mugshots and bios remember ;-) http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLIFAQ.asp For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment). ME TOO!! (well not JavaOne but other smaller more affordable events) Note: there are some people who view open source implementations of .Net as controversial as, say, open source implementations of popular MS file formats, for pretty much the same reasons. *shrug* I have no objection to an open source impl. of .NET. Hell if C# turns out to be a decent language and ACTUALLY ran WELL on other platforms I'd have not objection to it. I'm convinced POI can crack open all of the major Office file formats and do so workably. If I wasn't I'd not be involved in it. I'm simply not convinced that you'll be able to make C# more than it is (a proprietary answer to Java). Moreover, POI is an intellectual excercise. We're implementing a convoluted binary structure purely in a language with convoluted IO APIs. What could be more intellectually challenging than that? For my part, I have no interest in sticking it to Sun. Or to Microsoft for that matter. I simply want to see more of us working together. That's why I integrated PHP and Java. That's why I created Gump. That's why I participate in these standards. To be clear. What I meant was, C# on WINDOWS -- strongheck/strong no. I don't want to use windows. So far to be honest C# has failed to impress me. From what I've read, if I were to devote my time to another language, it would probably be adding a bytecode compiler and runtime environment to D http://www.digitalmars.com/d/ Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it. Until then C# is on my heck no list. (Sorry) - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Andrew C Oliver wrote: A few links: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp I was aware of this. Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it. Until then C# is on my heck no list. (Sorry) Obviously you didn't follow the links. I've reduced the set this time. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0500 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. Andrew C Oliver wrote: A few links: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp I was aware of this. Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it. Until then C# is on my heck no list. (Sorry) Obviously you didn't follow the links. I've reduced the set this time. I'll eat my words. Damn, I just agreed to try C#. Schisse, Ich glaube dass nicht! It might be fun one day to create a C#-mono port of POInot right now though...very busy. BTW I'll be offline next week. Goin to Boston (actually NH, but flying into Boston). Anyone in Boston? -Andy - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from? yep, you guessed it right: Java. They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) small - embedded (J2ME) why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading. Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle. Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the cliff at full speed. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Hi Stefano, -Mensaje original- De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...] My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. And you will be a tinkerer, able to create a non-commercial bare-bones application in two seconds. For more, you will have to pay Microsoft. This implementation is intended to meet the needs of academics, researchers, curious tinkerers, and those who wish to build independent versions of the proposed ECMA standards. Courtesy of Sam Ruby: http://www.microsoft.com/partner/products/microsoftnet/SharedSourceCsharpCLI FAQ.asp The Microsoft .NET Framework and its accompanying C# compiler are a commercial product, and have features not found in the ECMA working drafts. [...] The source code to the .NET Framework will be available under Microsoft's Shared Source Licensing Framework-see http://www.microsoft.com/sharedsource for more details. Is that acceptable for an Apache developer? Un saludo, Alex.
RE: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Most of the Mono Ximian crowd is in Boston IIRC. Give them a shout. Scott -Original Message- From: acoliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:01 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 10:48:28 -0500 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote. Andrew C Oliver wrote: A few links: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/dotnet/2002/02/04/mono.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/23919.html http://www.ximian.com/devzone/projects/mono.html http://www.gnu.org/projects/dotgnu/ http://www.halcyonsoft.com/news/javadotnet.asp I was aware of this. Bottom line: Port C# to Linux and then I'll at least look at it. Until then C# is on my heck no list. (Sorry) Obviously you didn't follow the links. I've reduced the set this time. I'll eat my words. Damn, I just agreed to try C#. Schisse, Ich glaube dass nicht! It might be fun one day to create a C#-mono port of POInot right now though...very busy. BTW I'll be offline next week. Goin to Boston (actually NH, but flying into Boston). Anyone in Boston? -Andy - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual. As soon as a java2c# porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on... -Original Message- From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 8:25 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from? yep, you guessed it right: Java. They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) small - embedded (J2ME) why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading. Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle. Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the cliff at full speed. -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal. Simple: JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this wildly. I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims that one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement - and its been 5 months and counting... James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
on 2/5/02 10:55 AM, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the other hand the porting tool already exists. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/. Yet the hordes still remain. - Sam Ruby My favorite quote: The Java Language Conversion Assistant has been developed independently by Microsoft. It is neither endorsed nor approved by Sun Microsystems, Inc. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Sam, I always get a kick out of your droll submissions. Thanks for the quiet humor, which always includes informational content and never is too biting. Micael At 01:55 PM 2/5/02 -0500, you wrote: Scott Sanders wrote: Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual. As soon as a java2c# porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on... Doesn't need to be to C#. The bytecodes are language independent. You can write one class in Java, subclass it in VB, and call the result from Perl. On the other hand the porting tool already exists. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jump/. Yet the hordes still remain. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Wed, 6 Feb 2002 04:09, Fernandez Martinez, Alejandro wrote: Hi Stefano, -Mensaje original- De: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] [...] My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. And you will be a tinkerer, able to create a non-commercial bare-bones application in two seconds. For more, you will have to pay Microsoft. err - you read what people write? Look at the license above. Do you consider people use other OSS tinkerers? In no way will you ever have to pay MS to use one of these impls. -- Cheers, Pete --- The difference between genius, and stupidity? Genius has limits --- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting. Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on Linux. yes. Thats its primary target. *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. BUT THERE WON'T BE! you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed). If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly fall down in that area. So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of time its taken. Mostly candy no meat. er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is enough to make it one of the best releases yet. -- Cheers, Pete Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote: Sam, I always get a kick out of your droll submissions. Thanks for the quiet humor, which always includes informational content and never is too biting. Micael If you liked that, you might also like http://radio.weblogs.com/0101679/2002/02/02.html#a61 . On the other hand, I wouldn't spend too much time at that site as it is filled with boring stuff like Web Services. - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
From: Scott Sanders [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Stefano, you are right on the mark as usual. As soon as a java2c# porting tool is available, the hordes will probably be moving on... Actually, forget a porting tool. I want an open-source version of something like this: http://msdn.microsoft.com/visualj/jsharp/beta.asp Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of years: hah... yeah... right. How much money do they have in the bank? Don't expect SUN to disappear in any less time than a decade. Even if they did EVERYTHING wrong from here on out they would still be around. Same with Microsoft and Oracle. if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from? yep, you guessed it right: Java. It is a valid point. I don't know the numbers though. I would expect at least 1/2 of Java's base to go away if C# sharpens up and looks better while Java is more proprietary. Could they make enought money to justify keeping Java proprietary? Maybe... Enough money for SUN? Probably not. Look what they did for OpenOffice. They should do this for Java and take another stab at Microsoft. snip/ Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. I don't need 10 billion dollars. 100 people collaborating towards this effort would be enough. Look what the Free Dmitry community did. We DON'T have to sit around and let other people control our destiny. We can take a stand! now. We can send (snail) mail to SUN executives, we can gather outside JavaOne and protest. SUN has lied to us. Whether this is deliberate or not is another story. I want to move on. The community is what is important. Look what we did at Apache? No imagine a fraction of the people here working to get SUN to release Java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can always make the argument that legacy systems will still need support. These are also the same people that will NOT migrate to an Open Source Java implementation even if it comes from SUN. You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. That is an understatement! snip/ Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid. Aren't you mad about this? Don't you want to change things? Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste of your time. There are a bunch of things we could do about this. I don't know about you but I am not smart enough to figure out the best approach. Should we protest JavaOne? Should we create an online petition for SUN to free Java? Should we petition Apache to take a stand on this? Should we draw a line in the sand? Should we start a letter writing campaign? I don't know. I do know that the future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. It is? If Java is a commercial reality I have yet to see if. A Java commercial reality will have to compete with a C# commercial reality. Microsoft has a monopoly and our governent (US) isn't going to do anything about it. A proprietary Java (even if SUN wants to make money) is going to loose against C#. We just have to convince SUN of this. They aren't stupid... they are a bunch of smart guys over there. snip/ Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the cliff at full speed. snip/ I think we can agree that things are starting to get very uncomfortable. I don't know what is going to happen. I just don't want to sit back and allow myself to get steam rolled. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ Patriotism is the last refuge of
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
From: Stefano Mazzocchi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from? Yes, it's the case for many high-end Unix systems, AIX, HPUX, Solaris suffer from the concurrence of cluster of low end system, thanks to IP routing/switching technology and it's ok for IP services, including all Web Services. But business processing is not just IP oriented, you've got DATABASES and BATCH processing which still need very powerfull hosts, there is still today many VMS and OS/390 systems around and they will be there for a pretty long time due to the quantity of in-house developpment on RPG, COBOL, PL1 running on these boxes. But you're true by saying that the number of high-end Unix servers may decrease. yep, you guessed it right: Java. Exact They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. The alternative could came from initiative like Gnome and KDE, running on low cost Unix boxes running Linux or FreeBSD and using StarOffice and evolution products. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) small - embedded (J2ME) why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). For Sun chips and also for IBM Power architecture and Intel i32/i64... Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Kevin is rigth when he try to convince Sun to push Java on OpenSource, may be not all the JVM but why not important parts, like external APIs. Why not give to Jakarta James Project the javamail API as they do with Servlet and Jasper for Tomcat. May be because in both case there was OpenSource alternative like servlet compat hosted at euronet.nl and gnujsp for example. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) Yes, Sun can't sell JDK when IBM continue to provide them for free on major platform, and that may be the answer. Sun could provide better JVM for money but there is today some companies who do that also but I'm unsure these companies have great profits/loss ratio. And there is still projects like GnuCC Java which in that case will gain more interest and more developpers behind them. Question here, GnuCC for Java is hosted by Redhat which is an AOL target. And AOL is also a Sun ally so All in one, the current JDK 1.3 and to be announced JDK 1.4 may be suffisant for the next 10 years to come. Did future needs will require core JVM updates or just external APIs ? I'm sure we could all live with current JDK 1.3 and external API from ASF, Exolab, and all the OSS providers... You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Sure and may be also have problem with US Department of Justice ;) Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. No, and for example take a look at IBM. They converted all their developpers to Java using tools like Visual Age for Java and now Eclipse (www.eclipse.org). Do you think that IBM will drop all the investments to convert them back to C# and .NET ? Better IBM have Java on platform from i32 pc boxes to AIX, iSeries and up to OS/390, it's a standard for them and they won't let Java die. Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid. Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Not necessary, Java could live for many years even if Sun try to make us pay for it. Again IBM is the major SDK providers on platform like Windows, Linux and it's own systems. And there is also Kaffe which could be pushed by the community. And there is GnuCC for Java. Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading. Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle. Anyway people: be ready to jump off the
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
De: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: martes 5 de febrero de 2002 15:09 For those who don't know me and might perceive this as an endorsement, I have worn Microsoft shirts to JavaOne (just ask Pat Sueltz), and NetScape shirts to the Microsoft PDC (just ask Dick Hardt or the MS VP in charge of Hailstorm who's name escapes me at the moment). ( Trying to standup after laugthing for half of an hour :) for that matter. I simply want to see more of us working together. That's As Always, you are the man , Sam.. +1000 I think this the *real* apache way, Now, i would like to propose to drop the java word from the Jakarta Home Page and Mission Statement.. ;)) to be prepared for future.. :))) Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Kevin A. Burton wrote: Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste of your time. Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more: - the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so efficient with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of its code written in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat because java technical evolution can't stand the rate of community evolution - the java enthusiasts who is going to sit in front of the moscone center in order to change Sun official's minds about Java licensing saying that they lied to him because instead of giving him 100% of their intellectual property, they gave him just 90% and now they are keeping the 10% for them Now tell me: who is wasting his time? -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 11:24, Stefano Mazzocchi wrote: Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. In case you didn't notice, Sun might go out of business as soon as a couple of years: if even Oracle says that bigiron is dead, Google and yahoo run on huge though inexpensive clusters of pc clones, Dual G4 machines are starting to beat the pants out of Sun boxes and run unix where the hell is Sun going to earn its money from? yep, you guessed it right: Java. unlikely, that's a difficult transition to make. Its easier to become the next Borland than a cross-platform-microsoft-like-palm-like-hybrid-thing. Java doesn't offer sun much of a business plan. They dropped the ball for java on the desktop: sun management decided that it will never happen: there will be no Java version of StarOffice. So they want to earn money on the other two sides: big - enterprise (J2EE) possible. They're going about it the wrong way (still). small - embedded (J2ME) pipe dream. If embedded resources grow substantially (to where embedded means a system about as capable as my desktop), Bill G. and the gang win. If it stays small, Palm and KR win. Sun has to bet on something in between or start making Java native chips again.. Its a pipe dream of a business plan. why? simple: these are the things that pay off and these are the things that go along better with Sun core business: which is hardware (both big fat machines and silicon chips). Now: is Sun going to change this because Mr. Burtonator cries on his own mail list? yeah, sure. Unless he has a few 10 billion dollars to invest in Sun to open up java. Sun can't start selling JDK's, otherwise people will switch to .NET (or OSS clones of it, see Ximian MONO), but it sure can stop improve on it (after 1.4 is out) and give away for free *normal* java implementations and sell better/faster/more-scalable JVMs (which is what M$ will be doing with .NET) You can be sure Sun has a lot to learn from M$ on the marketing-software side of things. Yep, people, Java is turning into legacy for most corporations: they'd rather spend some thousand dollars in new software (which will run on sparc only, of course) than spend millions in retraining people, porting software to .NET and blah blah blah. perhaps. Where does OSS stand? We have been *used* to make java solid. probably (Sun = Corporation, Corporations operate in their own interests and not for the public good -- OSS served and possibly serves Sun's interests, if that changes so does Sun). Now things are changed: they think they don't need us anymore because Java is a commercial reality. That's the truth and you'd better learn it fast. My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye. Think long and hard before you jump on this bandwagon my friend. If maintaining cross-platform compatibility with the .NET version is an objective for Mono then it will fail. The 3000 lb gorilla will never loose control of its illegitimate child. Regarding C#. I still think I'd rather learn D www.digitalmars.com/d If mono branches from .NET one starts asking why start with what I'm sure has baggage from the Microsoft platform in the first place. Interesting enough, this is where Ximian is leading. Or we wait for another mozilla-like miracle. Anyway people: be ready to jump off the train, we are approaching the cliff at full speed. Agreed. Sun is self-immolating and fast. I really do not see them surviving the decade, and I'm skeptical about their survival beyond year 6 or 7 at least in their present form. I'm really not sure what skillsets I should pick up from here. I'm considering not being a programmer at all anymore (professionally) and moving more toward the administrative side of things (again I'd never give up coding for fun). Seems a safer bet now that we're moving into what I predict will be a decade of fad languages, etc. -Andy -- Stefano Mazzocchi One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Friedrich Nietzsche
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 14:47, Peter Donald wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 23:41, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: On Tue, 2002-02-05 at 03:14, Peter Donald wrote: On Tue, 5 Feb 2002 11:38, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. You sure it is more proprietary? I believe our PMC head actually sits as head on one of the standardization efforts for C#s core libraries. With the recent change to BSDL/MIT licensing with one of the opensource runtimes things are starting to look interesting. Can I run it on Linux? Will a WORKING non-broken version ever run on Linux. yes. Thats its primary target. *if* there was an open, semi-stable platform then I am sure a fair chunk of people would flock to it - especially if it is under a nice license like MIT that both the BSD and GPL people seem to like. BUT THERE WON'T BE! you seem sure of yourself. I think there will be - many of the C people envy I don't respond to personal attacks. the java platform but few are willing to change languages and throw away years of invested effort. Theres big companies contributing to the opensouece version (which is why it is now MIT licensed). Right, but what I mean is this: If you attempt to maintain compatibility with the MS version then you will always be behind, broken and stalled, if you don't then why start with what I imagine has baggage from COM and .NET etc. If JDK1.5 comes out in time with all its very kool features I think Java still has a fighting chance ... maybe. If the J2SE was opensourced then it would almost win by default. However Sun is nowhere near as agile as MS - still too much of a slow hardware company - so they will almost certainly fall down in that area. So far I'm unimpressed with what has been added to 1.4 in the period of time its taken. Mostly candy no meat. er? Do you know whats in there ? NIO and decent accelerated GUI stuff is enough to make it one of the best releases yet. So the IO stuff made it? I heard it was pushed to 1.5! I've been running with 1.4 for testing purposes but haven't thoroughly studied it. I based my statement on what was SUPPOSED to be included so far as I know and what was pushed back etc. The good news is Java Generics got pushed back to 1.5. Sun still has time to rethink this crappy cop-out implementation. Couldn't care less about GUI stuff really. -- Cheers, Pete Sorry, I forgot to take my medication today. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stefano Mazzocchi [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Kevin A. Burton wrote: Dont't sit back and do nothing. Sending emails to this list is just a waste of your time. Try to imagine what makes Sun officials worry more: - the guy who pushed java technology in the ASF since '97 and was so efficient with his java-lover friends that the ASF has more than 70% of its code written in Java and now thinks seriously at abandoning the boat because java technical evolution can't stand the rate of community evolution What is your problem!? OK... when you get SUN to Open Source Java you can walk around with your head high... Until then any effort that contributes to this is a Good Thing in my book. - the java enthusiasts One person would look bad. 1000 people out from of Moscone would ge a good thing. who is going to sit in front of the moscone center in order to change Sun official's minds about Java licensing saying that they lied to him because instead of giving him 100% of their intellectual property, they gave him just 90% and now they are keeping the 10% for them Now tell me: who is wasting his time? snip/ Hm... are you saying that protesting is a waste of time? It is one of the efforts that sent Dmitry back to Russia ... My point was that a lot of just spend a lot of time arguing about this stuff and don't try to correct anything in the real world. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ Acts performed with a delusive mind produce painful results -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8YIPqAwM6xb2dfE0RAhN0AJ9K/s7ixmYrtWjI3EznjOlauMq7BgCeKLJx KHLUFFp6j7QonfqABgd5A2w= =7aDo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Jerry Bortvedt jerry.bortvedt@oTo: [NAME OMITTED], racle.com cc: Subject: Re: OCS4J availability 06/28/2001 02:37 PM Hi [NAME OMITTED], Try http://otn.oracle.com/products/ocs4j/content.html I don't off hand know what the licensing agreement is for this, so whether it is free probably depends on how you want to use it. Jerry [NAME OMITTED],wrote: Hi Jerry! I am interested in using OCS4J NOW. Is Oracle offering OCS4J as a separate free package (I checked OTN and found nothing). Thnaks in advance! [NAME OMITTED], (See attached file: jerry.bortvedt.vcf) -Original Message- From: James Strachan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 1:29 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal. Simple: JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this wildly. I've asked Jerry the Oracle guy several times (off-list) and he claims that one day Oracle will commit to releasing an open source reference implementation - but I'm still waiting for an official announcement - and its been 5 months and counting... James _ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. I hope that Sun will recall from its previous mistakes, like putting Solaris in OSS just when Linux was so widely used on Unix boxes that it became a de-facto reference in business even considered by IT. May be they will wake-up when MS .NET will start to populate 70% of the Web Services of the Planet, at that time they'll propose Java to OSS. But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad. Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of just software. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
On Mon, 2002-02-04 at 16:58, Kevin A. Burton wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Sorry for the X-post. Then don't do it. I just created a new mailing list: [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can sign up here: http://entropy.yi.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/java-is-dead ... Are you upset at the way Java is being handled by SUN? Do you feel lied to about the fact that SUN is still keeping Java proprietary even after they promised us for *years* that it would be standardized? Are you looking towards .NET/C# as an alternative but still optimistic about Java? Heck no. .NET/c# why would I want to use an even more proprietary thing to get back at SUN? Heck no. Do you *hate* the JCP? probably too strong a word. Are you sick of the fact that SUN keeps throwing new features into the VM and bloating it beyond belief? no. I think the VM needs a few new *well engineered* features. Do you want SUN to Open Source Java? I think so...I'm not always sure about that. Do you want to collaborate around other Open Source Java implementations? perhaps. ... I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. no offense but if java is dead, why would you want a mailing list to beat a dead horse? Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. Please feel free to forward this email or link to the mailing list from your site. Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! - Emiliano Zapata -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8XwPpAwM6xb2dfE0RAs5MAKCjopim62GAoeZSKxcPK8l5+VkJTwCbBVoC 5uMWqzV1IrVYFdcZjk8YcQ8= =Vgaj -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- www.superlinksoftware.com www.sourceforge.net/projects/poi - port of Excel format to java http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html - fix java generics! The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. -Ambassador Kosh -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: on 2/4/02 1:58 PM, Kevin A. Burton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I created the java-is-dead mailing list to address these issues. Note that this mailing list is a place to help fix things. The java-is-dead mailing list is for people who love Java but are *very* concerned. The only people who can fix these things is Sun. This mailing list sounds like a black hole and these types of politics usually don't work against Sun (neither do online polls)... The way to get Sun's attention is to corner them into a hole and then pound on their head for a few years. Then, if you are lucky, you might get them to concede on an issue or two so that only you will be happy. Well there really isn't any place to organize an effort like this... AKA java-is-dead :) ... and yes I agree. SUN is VERY stubborn even when faced with an inevitable fact of life. I just don't want to scrap all the Java work I have done over the last few years just because SUN managers can't pull their heads out of the sand :( Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees! - Emiliano Zapata -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8X0drAwM6xb2dfE0RAqtzAJ9w+C3rv7MGZD609xu6qfBGmNUr3wCfX/PB xOmgptKLTBkKFIJkppPMqrI= =NdDd -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Kevin A. Burton Sent: Monday, February 04, 2002 9:48 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: snip/ But before doing that, they could try to just put some importants API like javamail, jta, jndi, jdbc2ext back to OSS as they do for servlets. Nota, that these APIs are mandatory to build and use the ASF Tomcat 4.0, which make me and others pretty bad. Yes... I couldn't agree more. SUN takes all the NEW CODE and make it proprietary and continually bloats the JDK. Thanks guys ! :( Frankly Sun should learn from IBM model and start to sell services instead of just software. ... SUN and learn shouldn't be in the same sentence :) Kevin - -- Kevin A. Burton ( [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) Location - San Francisco, CA, Cell - 415.595.9965 Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED], Web - http://relativity.yi.org/ Copyright exists to improve science not to preserve the rights of the author. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Get my public key at: http://relativity.yi.org/pgpkey.txt iD8DBQE8X0fLAwM6xb2dfE0RAkmfAJ4mo4r7qRS6rRXjr8Kflffv1ZO7ZgCeN7Nt +rHGEPJ4ceN2c/qYlJJc008= =aqyl -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!
-Original Message- From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 05, 2002 12:29 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved! on 2/4/02 8:29 PM, Aaron Smuts [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone explain the issue, especially with reference to JSR107 (JCACHE). Aaron Yes. I'm on JSR 107 and I seem to be the only really vocal person there about my needs. Brian Goetz cares as well, but isn't nearly as vocal. Simple: JSR107 is being created under a non-open source license and Oracle will own the rights to the specification of the JSR. I'm complaining about this wildly. Hmmn. So what is the significance? What does this mean for implementations? Could Oracle charge a fee, if they wanted, or prevent others from implementing it? What are the worse case scenarios? What is the purpose (said, actual . . .) of the JSR? Aaron -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
