Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Anything happening in this regard? -Harish Costin Manolache wrote: Ted Husted wrote: Right now, the only plan seems to be to nominate committers one-by-one on the PMC list. I'm just saying that we shouldn't play favorites. I believe all Jakarta committers have already earned membership in

Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Henri Yandell
A vote is on-going at the moment [ends Sunday] for 20 or so people, but I've not heard of any movement on the plans to increase in a more aggressive way. Hen On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Anything happening in this regard? -Harish Costin Manolache wrote: Ted Husted

Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Thanks, will results be posted here? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: A vote is on-going at the moment [ends Sunday] for 20 or so people, but I've not heard of any movement on the plans to increase in a more aggressive way. Hen On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Anything happening

Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Henri Yandell
Currently that doesn't happen. Would be nice if it could, but it just doesn't fit. When someone wins a vote, they're invited to join. If they accept, which they signify by joining the PMC list [the Jakarta Chair moderates it], then the Jakarta Chair passes their name onto the board and they're

Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Thanks for the update. I don't understand why anything but the actual vote needs to be in private. There should probably be a public nomination list with reasons for hand picking (if hand picked) and a public results list with just a tally, like how JCP does it

RE: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Noel J. Bergman
I don't understand why anything but the actual vote needs to be in private. There should probably be a public nomination list with reasons for hand picking (if hand picked) and a public results list If you are nominated and not elected people would know. Otherwise, there is privacy. I do

RE: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Henri Yandell
On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: I don't understand why anything but the actual vote needs to be in private. There should probably be a public nomination list with reasons for hand picking (if hand picked) and a public results list If you are nominated and not elected people

RE: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Personally, I would send in the list to the board, get it ACK'd, and then celebrate the results with a public congratulatory notice. --- Noel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail:

Re: Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-14 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Jan 14, 2004, at 3:30 PM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 14 Jan 2004, Noel J. Bergman wrote: I don't understand why anything but the actual vote needs to be in private. There should probably be a public nomination list with reasons for hand picking (if hand picked) and a public results list

Extending the PMC ( was: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status)

2004-01-05 Thread Costin Manolache
Ted Husted wrote: Right now, the only plan seems to be to nominate committers one-by-one on the PMC list. I'm just saying that we shouldn't play favorites. I believe all Jakarta committers have already earned membership in the PMC; we should tender the offer to every Jakarta committer and let

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2004-01-01 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2004 05:04:32 +0900 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:27:30 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 30, 2003, at 8:37 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Martin Cooper wrote: This doesn't seem quite right to me. I agree that when we have voted in a new committer, both the existing committers and the new committer have had the same expectations with respect to their rights and

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: On Dec 30, 2003, at 8:37 PM, Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: Martin Cooper wrote: This doesn't seem quite right to me. I agree that when we have voted in a new committer, both the existing committers and the new committer have had the same expectations with respect to

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
If I were the chair of the Jakarta PMC and a board member and favored seeing Jakarta split up into TLPs, I'd do this: 1. Put everyone on the PMC 2. Get them in a reorganization type discussion Because the bulk of the 700? committers at Apache are in Jakarta and the bulk of the discussion has no

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:13:59 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: If I were the chair of the Jakarta PMC and a board member and favored seeing Jakarta split up into TLPs, I'd do this: 1. Put everyone on the PMC 2. Get them in a reorganization type discussion In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Henri Yandell
On Thu, 1 Jan 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:13:59 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: If I were the chair of the Jakarta PMC and a board member and favored seeing Jakarta split up into TLPs, I'd do this: 1. Put everyone on the PMC 2. Get them in a reorganization

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 10:18:29 -0500 Ted Husted wrote: If Struts does graduate to a TLP, I would update the wiki page based on our own experience (if someone doesn't beat me to it) and post a link to all the DEV lists. (Unless, of course, the growing consensus changes and the PMC decides to do

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
Hi, Henri and all On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 12:44:31 -0500 (EST) Henri Yandell wrote: I'd like to see the jakarta XXX PMC groups to be organized into subgroups realms. Jakarta has it's own brand. You can have either Jakarta POI or Apache POI, i guess... subsets of the group. .. thus would be

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: Two major options seem to be: 1) Big PMC that everyone is on, with the reality that we have interest in various areas. 2) Promote projects to TLP. 2) is not realistic. Why not? I don't agree that ALL projects should, but Henri didn't say

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 13:36:27 -0500 Noel J. Bergman wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Henri Yandell wrote: Two major options seem to be: 1) Big PMC that everyone is on, with the reality that we have interest in various areas. 2) Promote projects to TLP. 2) is not realistic.

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS. (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)! You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less. Yes. Size matters. This is obviously not feasible for Jakarta as we are demonstrating so aptly. You/I can see the

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-31 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Wed, 31 Dec 2003 14:27:30 -0500 Andrew C. Oliver wrote: In HTTPD/APR world. mostly Apache MEMBERS = Apache COMMITTERS. (OH, you pointed it our, 6 months ago ;-)! You must mean HTTPD PMC Members ~= HTTPD Committers more ore less. Yes. Obvious. HTTPD (Apache HTTP WebServer Project) does

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-30 Thread Ted Husted
- Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status SNIP/ I never understand why you keep doing

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-30 Thread Henri Yandell
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Ted Husted wrote: Right now, the only plan seems to be to nominate committers one-by-one on the PMC list. I'm just saying that we shouldn't play favorites. I believe all Jakarta committers have already earned membership in the PMC; we should tender the offer to every

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-30 Thread Martin Cooper
On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Ted Husted wrote: - Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-30 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Martin Cooper wrote: On Tue, 30 Dec 2003, Ted Husted wrote: - Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Ted Husted
- Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status SNIP/ Because the PMC would consist of those

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Ted Husted
- Original message From: Costin Manolache [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 12:12:29 -0800 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status SNIP/ Ted, Stephen - you are free to propose or encourage any

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 29, 2003, at 10:17 AM, Ted Husted wrote: - Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 16:05:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Danny Angus
We should trust the judgment of our community, let each committer decide for themselves, and then Jakarta be whatever Jakarta wants to be. +1 I totally agree, and I would hope that no one seriously holds any other view. Concern about oversight has been flagged as an issue for us to address

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-29 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
+1! On Dec 29, 2003, at 6:01 PM, Danny Angus wrote: We should trust the judgment of our community, let each committer decide for themselves, and then Jakarta be whatever Jakarta wants to be. +1 I totally agree, and I would hope that no one seriously holds any other view. Concern about

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 9:39 AM, Stephen Colebourne wrote: There has been considerable emphasis on this list over recent weeks for the sticking plaster approach. That is to make small minor changes to Jakarta in the hope the board will stop hassling us. The board isn't hassling. They have valid

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Ted Husted
+1 I agree that interested volunteers should: * setup a Wiki area describing the TLP process and rationales , AND * give notice to each and every Jakarta DEV list that the area exists. My main beef is that we have not done due diligence in alerting ALL of the subprojects of the latest

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Geir, I agree with everything that you said, except one. You have the idea that when a project moves to TLP status it leaves Jakarta, and that saddens you. You said the same thing when Logging was promoted, and Ceki tried to reassure you that it wasn't going far. Although I concur that projects

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 10:50 AM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir, I agree with everything that you said, except one. You have the idea that when a project moves to TLP status it leaves Jakarta, and that saddens you. In the above sentence, there is one correct statement : .. when a project moves to

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Ted Husted wrote: +1 I agree that interested volunteers should: * setup a Wiki area describing the TLP process and rationales , AND Do you think we all should setup our own individual Wiki page, or work together? I'm getting the feeling you don't want to work

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
I have added to the wiki http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?JakartaPMCTopLevelProjectAppli cation a section on board meeting dates (Jan 21st according to the archives). (If anyone knows a better source, or more dates, please update the wiki). Any suggestions of someone who could comment

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Ted Husted
On Dec 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Ted Husted wrote: +1 I agree that interested volunteers should: * setup a Wiki area describing the TLP process and rationales , AND Do you think we all should setup our own individual Wiki page, or work together? I'm getting the feeling you don't want to work

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] What really saddens me is the idea of chasing them out the door. To use an analogy, its like being the parents of a family, where the children, aged from 4 to 40, are all living at home. It strikes me that it isn't healthy for that 40 year old to be

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Ted Husted
- Original message From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: Sun, 28 Dec 2003 11:11:07 -0500 Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status On Dec 28, 2003, at 10:25 AM, Ted Husted wrote

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 11:26 AM, Stephen Colebourne wrote: From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] What really saddens me is the idea of chasing them out the door. To use an analogy, its like being the parents of a family, where the children, aged from 4 to 40, are all living at home. It strikes

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: it's good to see projects come out of Jakarta and continue to grow, and it's sad to see them leave, like when leaving a friend after a visit. I understand. And I understand why you view Jakarta that way. Why do you not feel that Jakarta could be an active community

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Costin Manolache
Stephen Colebourne wrote: From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] What really saddens me is the idea of chasing them out the door. To use an analogy, its like being the parents of a family, where the children, aged from 4 to 40, are all living at home. It strikes me that it isn't healthy for

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Costin Manolache
I think I missed the VOTE thread where this proposal has been approved. So far I've seen 2 +1 and 2 -1 votes ( including mine ), this doesn't seem like a consensus. It's better to wait for the vote to finish ( and it would be nice to have a [VOTE] thread and a time limit ) before starting to do

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Costin Manolache wrote: I see jakarta more like a union ( EU-style ), were the different projects that joined are mature entities that choose to be part of jakarta ( and can choose to get out - all that's needed is a vote ). And the PMC role is to make sure the rules are respected Project

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Danny Angus
-1 I don't think the PMC should be doing anything other than encouraging sub-projects to *consider* TLP at this stage. The proposal contains a number of detailed actions most of which I'd wholeheartedly support as they will help sub-projects to consider pro's and con's of promotion. However

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 1:42 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: it's good to see projects come out of Jakarta and continue to grow, and it's sad to see them leave, like when leaving a friend after a visit. I understand. And I understand why you view Jakarta that way. Why do you

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 3:44 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Costin Manolache wrote: I see jakarta more like a union ( EU-style ), were the different projects that joined are mature entities that choose to be part of jakarta ( and can choose to get out - all that's needed is a vote ). And the PMC role is

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 3:49 PM, Danny Angus wrote: -1 I don't think the PMC should be doing anything other than encouraging sub-projects to *consider* TLP at this stage. I don't even think they should do that. I don't think the PMC should take a position either way. I don't think there should

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
Firstly, having details collected together in one place for 'how to become a TLP' is a good thing IMHO. I doubt you are asking us to deny information to subprojects, are you? Secondly, I am acting because I have been the responsibility to act. As a Jakarta PMC member I have direct responsibility

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think a lot of what you say presupposed some sort of onerous additional work that comes from being a part of the Jakarta PMC. I would argue that it's no different - if you are providing oversight independently of Jakarta or part of Jakarta, it's

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 4:44 PM, Stephen Colebourne wrote: From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think a lot of what you say presupposed some sort of onerous additional work that comes from being a part of the Jakarta PMC. I would argue that it's no different - if you are providing oversight

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: you haven't seen what the EU has been up to :) Talk about over-regulation... LOL :-) OK, so it is a bad analogy. I don't believe that either Costin or I live in the EU. The PMC is supposed to be performing the active management of one or more projects, not

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen Colebourne
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] We need to get that view corrected, because there is *nothing* that states that every member of the PMC is *directly* responsible for ever part of every code, doc, mail list and CVS usage in Jakarta, the key word is directly. As a PMC member, I should

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
I'll try to be brief. I agree w/ you - I don't want to have to watch ever project. I'm also not interested in endless debate. I'm also not interested in legislation, process or overbearing procedure. And I'm not interested in breaking up Jakarta. All I want to do is get CLAs signed and

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 28, 2003, at 6:05 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: you haven't seen what the EU has been up to :) Talk about over-regulation... LOL :-) OK, so it is a bad analogy. I don't believe that either Costin or I live in the EU. I don't either. I live in Connecticut, USA.

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen McConnell
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: You also can't get soft cheese at a reasonable temperature in a restaurant under EU regs. They must keep them cold until being served. Ug. I can help you out on this particular subject! No shortage of soft cheese ready for a stated day of delivery where live.

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Stephen McConnell
Stephen McConnell wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: You also can't get soft cheese at a reasonable temperature in a restaurant under EU regs. They must keep them cold until being served. Ug. I can help you out on this particular subject! No shortage of soft cheese ready for a stated

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Robert Leland
-1 My knee jerk reaction to Proactively encourage TLP status is the same as I had to one of my conservative friend who set out to convert a family of another religion to their true religion. That is repugnant to me, and so is Proactively encourage TLP status If you want to make the information

RE: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: We see a couple of things differently. For one, you don't seem to believe that a community can be built by multiple collaborating PMCs. I don't believe that the Apache vs Jakarta Commons analogy applies. AFAICS, Apache Commons was an idea

Re: [PROPOSAL] Proactively encourage TLP status

2003-12-28 Thread Henri Yandell
Agreed on the -1 for the proposal's subject line, yet +1 to Stephen's suggestions of preparing Wiki resources for Jakarta sub-projects that want to move to TLP-ness. I do plan to proactively encourage TLP status for Commons, but as a Commons committer. As a Taglibs committer I'm happy where it