RE: Just in case you're curious

2004-01-03 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

 Everything is back on the private list again.  Odd to discuss including
 more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion.

It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the
public list.

--- Noel


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2004-01-03 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Jan 3, 2004, at 9:53 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Everything is back on the private list again.  Odd to discuss 
including more
people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion.
Oh, quit it.

Discussing individual people should be done in private to let people 
speak freely and avoid potential embarassment of those being discussed.

geir

--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2004-01-03 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:23:28 -0500
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
  Everything is back on the private list again.  Odd to discuss including
  more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion.
 It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the
 public list.

Agreed. We saw over 20 unsubscribers here in these two weeks.
Keeping this list a bit quiet would put the brakes on it, maybe ;-)

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2004-01-03 Thread Henri Yandell


On Sun, 4 Jan 2004, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

 On Sat, 3 Jan 2004 12:23:28 -0500
 Noel J. Bergman wrote:
   Everything is back on the private list again.  Odd to discuss including
   more people in the PMC while excluding them from the discussion.
  It is inappropriate and inconsiderate to discuss individual people on the
  public list.

 Agreed. We saw over 20 unsubscribers here in these two weeks.
 Keeping this list a bit quiet would put the brakes on it, maybe ;-)

It should be noisy I reckon. Just that the PMC list has a tiny set of
discussions that should happen there [namely adding people to the PMC and
some legal worries], which sometimes diverge into something that should
move to General.

Hen


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RE: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Lawrence E. Rosen
 No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers 
 on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The 
 point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can 
 legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered 
 to participate in the decisions that govern the project.

Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF?
And what legal empowerment is being granted?

/Larry Rosen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 21, 2003, at 8:17 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:

On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 07:17:57AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we 
discuss
something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
to be on Google.
No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC
is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on
the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they
are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern
the project.
The reason is *not* that the ASF will protect them. There is no reason 
to believe that committers are guaranteed legal protection, nor should 
there be an expectation that they will receive protection.

I'd bet that the ASF would do all it could to help a committer, but 
that's totally different than what you believe.

The only people granted legal protection are directors, officers and 
members (and I'm sure that's only if they are dragged into a suit just 
because of membership status itself), and in some special cases, others 
working as 'agents' on behalf of the corporation, at the direction of 
the corporation.  Only the PMC Chair is an officer of the corporation.

The point of getting the committers on the PMC is to ensure that any 
action made on behalf of the corporation is overseen by those 
designated by the corporation to oversee such activities, namely, by 
the PMC.

geir

-aaron

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Vic Cekvenich
BIG SNIP

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
... sensitive things should be on the PMC
 list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
/end Geir 
What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? 
This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are 
ashamed of it, don't do open source community.

For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we 
will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?

What do I mean by that:
ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, commit 
the code to do it.

ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out 
roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for 
commiters, but does not committ itself?.
What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of 
code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where 
have they CVSed latelly.

ASF is still very small, $100K in the bank. It's committer volunters and 
users that use it.
No need for a rulling class, what's wrong with peers?
Some officers rotated in for admin.
If commiters don't get active to make it better, it will get worse. 
People I know are active in CVS (via CVS posts I see) have said very 
little relative to people I never see in CVS.

Vic
(Struts user)
Ex: germaine issue, why no public vote of any kind on it ever, else 
link it for me.  I think once germaine is addressed, things go back to 
normal. None of this : we are not smart enough to understand. This is 
the only issue that is secret, AFAIK.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:

BIG SNIP

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
... sensitive things should be on the PMC
 list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
/end Geir 
What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community? 
This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are 
ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are considered 
a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.

If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have 
included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive

because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our 
act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it 
as a group.

IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make 
things clear and non-confusing.

For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we 
will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?

What do I mean by that:
ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something, 
commit the code to do it.

ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out 
roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for 
commiters, but does not committ itself?.
What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of 
code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where 
have they CVSed latelly.
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are 
trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta 
onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.

Please re-read.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 8:05 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:

On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
What could be something that is sensteive in an open source 
community?
This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are 
considered
a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.
I agree. Also, I think [PROPOSAL] As it ever were mail
was very reasonable. However, just one question came to my mind.
Have The Committer Votes (I mean, [VOTE] in to elect new committer)
to be taken place at Jakarta PMC list? ... This is very sensitive
issue (maybe causes inter-personal dispute), i guess.
Could you please explain more?
Committer votes haven't taken place on the Jakarta PMC list.  PMC 
member votes have, but that's a different thing.

Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects 
do committer votes in public.  Some people outside of Jakarta feel that 
this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open 
discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.

I can see both sides of this - do it in public because it's a good pat 
on the back for a person to see fellow community members supporting 
him or her, but on the other hand, it would be a shame for people to be 
unable to say how they feel about a proposed committer and have that 
POV understood by others w/o possibly hurting the feelings of the 
person being voted on.

I hope this is something we take up when we have this PMC issue sorted 
out.

geir

Thanks in advance.

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])

P.S.
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
Well said.

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk
 about
 open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.
 
 
 And you know there's a difference.  :)
 

Not to me.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk
 about
 open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.
 
 
 And you know there's a difference.  :)
 
 What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive?  The
 recipe
 to the secret Jakarta Eggnog?  I thought Jon took that with him...  I
 think
 it is:
 
 Lots of expensive Bze
 Cheap store-bought eggnog
 
 There... Impeach me.  I've divulged the state secrets.
 
 
 -Andy
 
 
 That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
 in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we
 discuss
 something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
 to be on Google.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 -- 
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?
 
 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are
 almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or
 its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree
 with
 everything espoused in the above email.
 
 
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
YES! -- And members, and board, and incubator, and

Move it into the open.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Aaron Bannert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 17:11:02 -0800
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 On Thu, Dec 18, 2003 at 09:58:53AM -0500, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
 public?
 
 Do you believe there are discussions happening on PMC lists that should
 be happening on public dev lists?
 
 -aaron
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect.
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: mvdb.com
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
 If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
 that PMC.
 
 Mvgr,
 Martin
 
 On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Now the conversation is here, that is the solution.  You're welcome.
 
 -Andy
 
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
 to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
 
 geir

Heads up,

FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be
voting/discussing here.

While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for:

* PMC nominations/discussion
* legally precarious issues
* things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted.  I favor openness, but
the peanut gallery isn't helpful.

Pointedly,

I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of Jakarta on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I will discuss it here.  This is my personal choice.  I choose to
work in the open.  I choose to be googled.  I volunteered for it in fact.

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
 escribió:
 
 
 
 On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
 escribió:
 
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
 up
 until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
 board
 etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear
 on
 the
 board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
 
 
 I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.
 
 When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
 
 Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.
 
 I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
 batch
 vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
 
 
 This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
 
 I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
 to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
 

While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet committers.

-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:
 
 
 BIG SNIP
 
 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
  list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
 /end Geir 
 
 What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
 This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
 ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
 
 There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are considered
 a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.
 
 If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
 included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive
 
 because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our
 act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
 as a group.
 
 IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
 things clear and non-confusing.
 
 
 For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
 will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
 
 What do I mean by that:
 ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
 commit the code to do it.
 
 ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
 Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out
 roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
 commiters, but does not committ itself?.
 What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
 code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
 The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
 have they CVSed latelly.
 
 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
 
 Please re-read.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Danny Angus





Andy wrote:

 FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will be
 voting/discussing here.
snip
 I choose to
 work in the open.  I choose to be googled.  I volunteered for it in fact.

Well said, I agree with this.
But why be so confrontational about it? After all in the tradition of itch
scratching you took issue with the private discussions and did something,
no one is questioning that it was the right outcome and that we were being
half-assed about it, but what is this argument about now?

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want 
to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant.

IIRC, the thread in play at the time was my note to ask the opinion of 
all PMC members re the CLA signing, to make sure that it was a clear 
message we all wanted to go out with.  IRRC, you never even responded 
to it.

Further, IIRC, there was broad consensus that things should be public 
(I think it was Peter's first nudge), and we were working that 
direction.

geir

On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:04 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

Well, saying please and asking nicely had no effect.
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.

From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Organization: mvdb.com
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: 22 Dec 2003 01:53:20 +0100
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
that PMC.
Mvgr,
Martin
On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Now the conversation is here, that is the solution.  You're welcome.

-Andy


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Danny Angus




 While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet committers.

I certainly think that increasing the size of the PMC makes it easier for
things to get discussed on the PMC list, but if people care (and you do for
one) about visibility the very nature of things mean that it won't happen
for long before someone starts to get obstreperous.

I know from the past that you'd favour a fully open process, but we don't
have that. I don't think this should _necessarily_ be a social experiment,
in open management, this isn't a political project its about software.

d.


--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious


 On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:


 BIG SNIP

 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 ... sensitive things should be on the PMC
  list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
 /end Geir 

 What could be something that is sensteive in an open source community?
 This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
 ashamed of it, don't do open source community.

 There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are considered
 a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.

 If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
 included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive

 because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our
 act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
 as a group.

 IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
 things clear and non-confusing.


 For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
 will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?

 What do I mean by that:
 ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
 commit the code to do it.

 ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
 Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out
 roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
 commiters, but does not committ itself?.
 What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
 code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
 The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
 have they CVSed latelly.

 Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
 trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
 onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.

 Please re-read.

 geir

 --
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
You are free to do what you want.  Is this then about personal google 
hitcount?

On Dec 21, 2003, at 11:06 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
geir
Heads up,

FYI, except where I feel the situation absolutely mandates it, I will 
be
voting/discussing here.

While I'm not sure I agree, out of courtesy, I will vote privately for:

* PMC nominations/discussion
* legally precarious issues
* things too likely to cause me to get slashdotted.  I favor openness, 
but
the peanut gallery isn't helpful.

Pointedly,

I will not discuss the organization, structure, software, etc. of 
Jakarta on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  I will discuss it here.  This is my personal choice.  I choose 
to
work in the open.  I choose to be googled.  I volunteered for it in 
fact.

-Andy
--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.

From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 07:35:45 -0500
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 21, 2003, at 3:51 AM, Santiago Gala wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
escribió:


On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
escribió:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members
up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to 
the
board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them 
appear
on
the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].

I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.

When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.

I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a
batch
vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.
This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists.
I think the problem isn't the private list, on which we will continue
to do work, such as voting, but follow up.
geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 10:31 AM, Danny Angus wrote:





While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet 
committers.
I certainly think that increasing the size of the PMC makes it easier 
for
things to get discussed on the PMC list, but if people care (and you 
do for
one) about visibility the very nature of things mean that it won't 
happen
for long before someone starts to get obstreperous.
Just to save everyone the trip to dictionary.com :

ob·strep·er·ous    Pronunciation Key  (b-str
p
r-
s, 
b-)
adj.
 1. Noisily and stubbornly defiant.
 2. Aggressively boisterous.
I know from the past that you'd favour a fully open process, but we  
don't
have that. I don't think this should _necessarily_ be a social  
experiment,
in open management, this isn't a political project its about software.
No one wants things unnecessarily private.  The less the better.  The  
less organizational conversation the better - more tech, more  
community.

This stuff is tiring :)

geir

d.

--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are  
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or  
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree  
with
everything espoused in the above email.

From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Mon, 22 Dec 2003 07:38:54 -0500
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:27 AM, Vic Cekvenich wrote:

BIG SNIP

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
... sensitive things should be on the PMC
 list, and non-sensitive things should be on the general@ list.
/end Geir 
What could be something that is sensteive in an open source  
community?
This is new direction. Gray areas should be well exposed. If you are
ashamed of it, don't do open source community.
There are lots of things.  Committer votes, for example, are  
considered
a sensitive issue.  Inter-personal disputes.

If you would have been fair with your attribution, you would have
included what I then said next, namely that I felt it sensitive
because of the confusion that it sews.  My hope was for us to get our
act together before we approached the rest of the community, and do it
as a group.
IOW, simply to get a handle on how we approach the community to make
things clear and non-confusing.
For a developer ... lets have some code in open, and the bad code we
will just have in a encrypted jar. Is this open source?
What do I mean by that:
ASF used(?) to be Libreterian: If you want code to do something,
commit the code to do it.
ASF used(?) to be run by commiters.
Now some are trying to develop rulling class, that is carving out
roles for itself and rules to legislate iteligence and integrity for
commiters, but does not committ itself?.
What happend to emritius commiters? People who did not CVS a chunk of
code in a while lose vote rights and their berucrat office.
The people that are vocal on berucracy are same people I wonder where
have they CVSed latelly.
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.
Please re-read.

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient (or  
responsible for delivery of the message to the intended recipient)  
please notify us immediately on 0141 306 2050 and delete the message  
from your computer. You may not copy or forward it or use or disclose  
its contents to any other person. As Internet communications are  
capable of data corruption Student Loans Company Limited does not  
accept any  responsibility for changes made to this message after it  
was sent. For this reason it may be inappropriate to rely on advice or  
opinions contained in an e-mail without obtaining written confirmation  
of it. Neither Student Loans Company Limited or the sender accepts any  
liability or responsibility for viruses as it is your responsibility  
to scan attachments (if any). Opinions and views expressed in this  
e-mail are those of the sender and may not reflect the opinions and  
views of The Student Loans Company Limited

Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Costin Manolache
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
Vic, if you've been paying ANY attention, you'd know that what we are
trying to do is just the opposite - get *every* committer in Jakarta
onto the PMC, *eliminating* this needless boundary.


While closing out everyone else.  Like those who are not yet committers.


I think all active committers should be in the PMC - maybe with a 3 
months waiting or something similar. Not because of oversight concerns 
or to close out everyone else, but because it is the right thing.

I do agree with you that jakarta-general should be used for most 
discussions, and it was a mistake to have the threads about oversight in
the PMC list.

With all committers in the PMC it is more likely someone will notice 
that some threads should be public and speak up sooner ( just as you
did ).



Costin





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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 08:12:02 -0500
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

 Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects 
 do committer votes in public.  Some people outside of Jakarta feel that 
 this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open 
 discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.

Yes, HTTP Server Project / APR Project folks often feel that it is
improper, it seems. (I am not a HTTPD guy ;-) I've heard such opinions
on other lists before.

Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do not
have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.

Only one concern. Maybe Jakarta has many *zombie* committers.
I hope current (jakartan) voting rule hadn't affected to the *inflated
zombies* phenomena. To eliminate *zombie* committers would be one
of the critical issues for Jakarta PMC, I imagine. (This is also
board members' concern, I imagine)

Anyways, I think Jakarta can have Jakartan-Way.
Good luck, folks. (And thanks)

Sincerely,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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RE: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
  Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
  do committer votes in public.  Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
  this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
  discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.

 Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
 is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do
 not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.

There are good reasons for the guidelines.  One of the other Apache projects
recently had a situtation where someone proposed a new Committer in public,
there was a negative reaction from some people, and it created an
unfortunate situation in public.  There is no reason to either subject
anyone to that, or leave a public record of it.

Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there
should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public.

--- Noel


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 +
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want 
  to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant.
 +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) !

It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-)
(Maybe, reincarnation of yeti)

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
 Tetsuya Kitahata wrote:
  Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
   Here in Jakarta (as well as other projects, I assume), the sub-projects
   do committer votes in public.  Some people outside of Jakarta feel that
   this is improper, and should be done in private to ensure that open
   discussion can happen in a way that doesn't hurt peoples feelings.
  Well, I think it that vote jakartan-way (to vote new committers in)
  is reasonable as well as the way other (single projects -- which do
  not have many subprojects under their umbrella) projects had chosen is.
 Once the PMC situation is squared away by any of a few approaches, there
 should be no reason to hold Committer or PMC Member votes in public.

Makes sense. Thanks.

I'd subscribed to all the -dev lists and downloaded all the 
archive messages from jakarta.apache.org/mail/**.

I found it that if PMC situation would be squared away, PMC
list could take over the place for committer votes, too.
I had a stats of the contributors' messages and sometimes felt
I do want to vote him/her in to XX subproject if I were a committer
of this (sub)project where I am not a committer nor a PMC Member.
(So, I often did non-binding votes -- +1 to excellent
persons ... Right?  Adam @ gump)

I think you folks can choose the appropriate persons for the 
jakarta-committership, granted you won't hold Committer votes
in public. -- I remember that one of the ASF members has already
invented nice voting machine program @ minotaur (wrapper program
for qmail, if i remember correctly) -- Maybe you/we will be able
to make use of it (Then, PMC list's traffic won't be increased).

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Dain Sundstrom
Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  From 
what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability 
protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf of 
the organization.  Further is it seems that the ASF does not believe 
this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my personal 
logical conclusion based on statements around why someone would like to 
join a PMC).  This protection is usually referenced when people talk 
about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas.

I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice to 
have one.

Happy Holidays

-dain

/*
 * Dain Sundstrom
 * Partner
 * Core Developers Network
 */
On Dec 21, 2003, at 9:08 PM, Lawrence E. Rosen wrote:

No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers
on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The
point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can
legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered
to participate in the decisions that govern the project.
Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from 
ASF?
And what legal empowerment is being granted?

/Larry Rosen

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  From 
what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability 
protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf 
of the organization.  Further is it seems that the ASF does not 
believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my 
personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone 
would like to join a PMC).  This protection is usually referenced when 
people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas.

I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice 
to have one.

I did respond.  As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC 
members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the 
corporation in good faith.

And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing in 
OSS matters.

geir

Happy Holidays

-dain

/*
 * Dain Sundstrom
 * Partner
 * Core Developers Network
 */
On Dec 21, 2003, at 9:08 PM, Lawrence E. Rosen wrote:

No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers
on the PMC is not to keep discussions out of google. The
point of getting them on the PMC is so that the ASF can
legally protect them, and so that they are legally empowered
to participate in the decisions that govern the project.
Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from 
ASF?
And what legal empowerment is being granted?

/Larry Rosen

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Dain Sundstrom
On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  From 
what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability 
protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf 
of the organization.  Further is it seems that the ASF does not 
believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my 
personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone 
would like to join a PMC).  This protection is usually referenced 
when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other 
areas.

I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice 
to have one.

I did respond.  As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC 
members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of the 
corporation in good faith.
Sorry missed your reply.  From what I have seen there are vastly 
differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF).  
Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, but 
it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least anytime 
soon ;)

And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing 
in OSS matters.
I know Larry.  He used to a company I used to do business with.

-dain

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:07 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  From 
what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability 
protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf 
of the organization.  Further is it seems that the ASF does not 
believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my 
personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone 
would like to join a PMC).  This protection is usually referenced 
when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other 
areas.

I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be nice 
to have one.

I did respond.  As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC 
members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of 
the corporation in good faith.
Sorry missed your reply.  From what I have seen there are vastly 
differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF).  
Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, but 
it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least 
anytime soon ;)
Feel free to send them to me.  I'm interested.  I'll be happy to report 
back a summary or correction.


And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing 
in OSS matters.
I know Larry.  He used to a company I used to do business with.
Ah  Sorry. :)

geir

-dain

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Dain Sundstrom
On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:13 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 7:07 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 5:58 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

On Dec 22, 2003, at 6:23 PM, Dain Sundstrom wrote:

Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  
From what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have 
liability protection from the ASF because the PMC members are 
acting on behalf of the organization.  Further is it seems that the 
ASF does not believe this protection extends to those not in the 
PMC (this is my personal logical conclusion based on statements 
around why someone would like to join a PMC).  This protection is 
usually referenced when people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if 
it extends to other areas.

I'm not aware of an official statement on this, but it would be 
nice to have one.

I did respond.  As I understand it, here is no protection for PMC 
members except for the chair, if he or she was acting on behalf of 
the corporation in good faith.
Sorry missed your reply.  From what I have seen there are vastly 
differing opinions on this matter (from ranking people in ASF).  
Anyway, it would be nice to see something official on this matter, 
but it is a legal matter and therefore unlikely to happen (at least 
anytime soon ;)
Feel free to send them to me.  I'm interested.  I'll be happy to 
report back a summary or correction.
I doubt the ASF wants me to make declarations about what legal 
protections they provide to PMC members.  Even if they did want me to 
come up with a straw man, I wouldn't even know where to start.

And if you don't know Larry, he's a well-known attorney specializing 
in OSS matters.
I know Larry.  He used to a company I used to do business with.
Ah  Sorry. :)
AHHH... can't type today.  Meant to write He use to *represent* a 
company...

-dain

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Stephen McConnell


Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sun, 21 Dec 2003 21:04:26 -0500
To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

   

You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk
about
open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.
 

And you know there's a difference.  :)

   

Not to me.

Wow ... and you say just don't get the difference!
ROTFL
Stephen.

--

Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Stephen McConnell


Dain Sundstrom wrote:

Larry,

I'm surprised that no one answered this (at least that I saw).  From 
what I understand, ASF believes that those on PMC have liability 
protection from the ASF because the PMC members are acting on behalf 
of the organization.  Further is it seems that the ASF does not 
believe this protection extends to those not in the PMC (this is my 
personal logical conclusion based on statements around why someone 
would like to join a PMC).  This protection is usually referenced when 
people talk about IP, and I'm not sure if it extends to other areas. 


This conflicts with my own understanding of the situation.

I am a member of the Avalon PMC but there is nothing that I am aware of 
that gives me any protection at all.  In fact the recent emails have 
suggested there is a distinction between the opinion of the chair 
(recognized) and the opinion of the PMC (not recognized).  Basically the 
PMC can say what it wants - but that does not count at the level of the 
board.  What matters is what the chair states (even if the chair states 
things that contradict PMC members or PMC collective opinion).

I''m also interested in a clarification of the function and purpose of a 
PMC relative to the Board.

Stephen.

--

Stephen J. McConnell
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Lawrence E. Rosen asked:

 Would someone please explain what protection committers expect from ASF?
 And what legal empowerment is being granted?

I doubt that very many people can answer that question with any authority at
all.  Certainly not me.  The most that I can do for you is provide a couple
public references:


http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.orgmsgNo=2642


http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
.orgmsgNo=2711

Hope that helps.

--- Noel


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-22 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-)
 (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti)

Andrew means Strong and Manly.  Fairly gender specific.

http://www.andythenamebender.com/name-meanings/Andrew.htm

I like this:


Origin: Shakespearean
Meaning: 'Twelfth Night', also called 'What You Will' Sir Andrew Aguecheek.


Though I like to think of myself more as Feste albeit my girth gives more
truth to the former.  ;-)

-Andy
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Tetsuya Kitahata [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Organization: The Apache Software Foundation, Committer
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2003 07:16:44 +0900
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 On Mon, 22 Dec 2003 16:10:27 +
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 I realize that arguing with you on this will have no effect, but I want
 to keep working to extinguish the meme you keep trying to plant.
 +1, Andrew seems to have boundless energy in this regard ;-) !
 
 It seems that he/she/it is a *winter* person ;-)
 (Maybe, reincarnation of yeti)
 
 -- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
 
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Santiago Gala
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
El domingo, 21 dici, 2003, a las 02:35 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell 
escribió:



On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
escribió:
http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear 
on
the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].

I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.

When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?
Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.

I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a 
batch
vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.

This is the kind of problems that happen with private lists. I received 
a copy of my nomination from Andrew, back in October.
But, as I saw no resolution about the election here, I thought there 
had been no vote.

I have subscribed board@ in December, because Greg encouraged all 
members doing so. I previously thought I could read the archives but 
not subscribe to it. Had I done it earlier I would have seen the 
message to the board confirming the elections in Nov 19. (I did a grep 
in the archives yesterday, this is how I know now that I have actually 
been elected, somewhere in november).

Regards,
 Santiago
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk about
open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.

What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive?  The recipe
to the secret Jakarta Eggnog?  I thought Jon took that with him...  I think
it is:

Lots of expensive Bze
Cheap store-bought eggnog

There... Impeach me.  I've divulged the state secrets.


-Andy

 
 That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
 in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we discuss
 something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
 to be on Google.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Sorry to hear you didn't understand my mail at all
If that is the way a PMC member communicates, I can never be part of
that PMC.

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sun, 2003-12-21 at 23:10, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 Now the conversation is here, that is the solution.  You're welcome.
 
 -Andy



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 21, 2003, at 5:03 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

You go discus your private matters wherever you like, I'd like to talk 
about
open source projects and am quite willing to do so in the open.

And you know there's a difference.  :)

What that we've discussed so far has been SSSooo sensitive?  The 
recipe
to the secret Jakarta Eggnog?  I thought Jon took that with him...  I 
think
it is:

Lots of expensive Bze
Cheap store-bought eggnog
There... Impeach me.  I've divulged the state secrets.

-Andy

That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested
in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we 
discuss
something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have
to be on Google.

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-21 Thread Aaron Bannert
On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 07:17:57AM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested 
 in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we discuss 
 something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have 
 to be on Google.

No, that is not correct. The point of having most committers on the PMC
is not to keep discussions out of google. The point of getting them on
the PMC is so that the ASF can legally protect them, and so that they
are legally empowered to participate in the decisions that govern
the project.

-aaron


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-20 Thread Santiago Gala
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell 
escribió:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the 
board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on 
the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].

I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.

When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?

Regards,
 Santiago
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rPzeRQpFq9dNypbNXXDYIy8=
=/byG
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 19, 2003, at 12:56 AM, Rainer Klute wrote:

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:16 -0500 Harish Krishnaswamy 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is 
the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the 
origanization. I can understand certain
private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything 
else, I think, should be out in
the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some 
talk going on about the
Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would 
appreciate the knowledge sharing in
such metters.
That's just as I see it. Discussions should definetly take place HERE.
That's the point of getting as many people as are seriously interested 
in the subject on the PMC.  Then all can participate, and if we discuss 
something sensitive (as defined by the discusser), it doesn't all have 
to be on Google.

geir

--
Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-20 Thread Henri Yandell


On Sat, 20 Dec 2003, Santiago Gala wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1


 El jueves, 18 dici, 2003, a las 15:52 Europe/Madrid, Henri Yandell
 escribió:

 
  http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
  until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the
  board
  etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on
  the
  board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].
 

 I have just discovered I'm listed as PMC member in the web page.

 When was I appointed? is there no notification to elected people?

Ack. Sorry. Completely my mistake.

I added you along with three others, thinking you'd been part of a batch
vote with them. Instead your vote was separate one.

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-19 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Andrew,

The big difference between Geir and you, is that Geir is actually trying to give 
feedback and explain the situation on what's going on.
The only messages I keep reading from you are protests against private lists and that 
they should be public  and for the rest nothing at all constructive.
After a year watching your posts I have come to the conclusion that you probably still 
don't get it : you are the problem.
You are part of that private list and  have therefore the same responsibility as the 
other PMC members.
If you think as a PMC member (you are that according to the jakarta website) that 
something should be in the open, just do it, instead of just saying that everything is 
decided in private without saying what is private.(that is even WORSE than keeping it 
private!)
I think you are way out of line here blaming others, start looking at yourself for 
once!
Hope to hear some constructive things from you in the future..
I don't expect a response from you, since you said you would never want to have 
anything to do with me, so I respect that.

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-19 Thread Rainer Klute
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:16 -0500 Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
  But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
  source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
 
 As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can 
 understand certain 
 private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, 
 should be out in 
 the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on 
 about the 
 Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the 
 knowledge sharing in 
 such metters.

That's just as I see it. Discussions should definetly take place HERE.

Best regards
Rainer Klute

   Rainer Klute IT-Consulting GmbH
  Dipl.-Inform.
  Rainer Klute E-Mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Körner Grund 24  Telefon: +49 172 2324824
D-44143 Dortmund   Telefax: +49 231 5349423

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.

|  Don't feed  |
|  the trolls  |

   |
   |
   |
--\|/


--
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?
The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are 
almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or 
its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree 
with
everything espoused in the above email.

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 17, 2003, at 11:01 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Yep. Do that.  Every committer should want to be part of the PMC.

geir

--
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Serge Huber
At 04:19 AM 12/18/2003, you wrote:
The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.
Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term 
effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to 
have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.

Just my 2ct...

Regards,
  Serge Huber.
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus





 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.

 Well at least it's honest. But it makes me wonder about the long term
 effect of a private decision process in an open source group. It seems to

 have almost destroyed the XFree86 project recently.

It's certainly not deliberate. Least I hope not.
I guess Andy was trying to shame people into using this list. Go Andy .
d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andy Armstrong
Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)

--
Andy Armstrong, Tagish
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:
As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?

--
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:


 On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

  Henri Yandell wrote:
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
  existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
  Who's the best person to nudge then? :)

 Anyone.  Interested?

Whoever knows you as an active committer Andy and is on the PMC.

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/whoweare.html lists the PMC members up
until the previous addition of 20 or so. That list has to go to the board
etc and I plan to add them to the list as soon as I see them appear on the
board's list [in the committers/ cvs module].

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andy Armstrong
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?
Yes, very much thanks.

--
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
public?
-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.

 From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Wed, 17 Dec 2003 23:01:11 -0500 (EST)
 To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Just in case you're curious
 
 
 subjects have been:
 
 how the PMC should work
 organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so
 far]
 how to ensure oversight of jakarta
 general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
  social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
  [it shouldn't seems the end result here]
 how to get more CLA's signed by committers
 log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
 whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a
 bit
 
 Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
 this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
 thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
 at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
 did anyway.
 
 As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
 member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 Hen
 
 On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 
 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.
 --
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI
 
 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?
 
 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
 everything espoused in the above email.
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
the
 public?

For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other
commercial/open hybrids.
OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed
by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department.
From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of
consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be
better off here.

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the origanization. I can understand certain 
private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else, I think, should be out in 
the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some talk going on about the 
Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate the knowledge sharing in 
such metters.

-Harish

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell


On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Danny Angus wrote:

  Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
  name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to
 the
  public?

 For the record I'm in favour of transacting business HERE.
 But I would like to respond by saying that as I understand it it is the
 source and the development of it which is open, not the organisation.
 So of course we would still be, like MySQL and JBOSS and so many other
 commercial/open hybrids.
 OTOH I don't think I'd like participating as much if decisions were imposed
 by the secret handshakes and arcane knowledge department.
 From what I can see there is no conspiracy here, just some lack of
 consideration by people starting threads on the PMC list which would be
 better off here.

Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more
aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this
open forum.

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Danny Angus




 As a committer I would like to know what's going on with the
origanization. I can understand certain
 private conversations that involve legal implications, but anything else,
I think, should be out in
 the open to do justice to the committers. It seems like there is some
talk going on about the
 Jakarta banner in private that I have no clue about. I would appreciate
the knowledge sharing in
 such metters.

Harish,
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.

Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
(including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have
been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly
just at the My Idea stage.

I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it
is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us
all.

d.



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:58 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more 
than
name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open 
to the
public?
This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we 
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion 
of the things that are concerning us.

The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to 
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
First off, as a commiter your entitled to be proposed for membership of the
PMC, which I'd be happy to do.
Thanks for the offer but I don't know if I would qualify for one. The description on the website is 
pretty broad.

Secondly there has been a long drawn out debate in numerous places
(including here) about the future direction of Jakarta, recently there have
been threads on the PMC list which raise the issue, but they are mainly
just at the My Idea stage.
I hope those who have been debating there will raise their issues here, it
is important to involve the whole community in this debate as it affects us
all.
Absolutely, this kind of stuff, I think, belongs here.

-Harish



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Re: PMC mailing list (Re: Just in case you're curious)

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:52 AM, Joe Germuska wrote:

Anyone.  Interested?
I'm interested in being on the PMC mailing list; I just became a 
Struts committer.  My apache ID is germuska.
Joe,

I took the liberty of cc-ing the general Jakarta list.

Congrats on becoming a committer.   I hope that your CLA has been 
signed and sent to the ASF. :)

What we are trying to do is expand the Jakarta PMC to give as much 
inclusion and oversight as possible for all jakarta projects.  To that 
end, we are looking for committers that are interested in the oversight 
of the projects, not just working on the projects.  Fundamentally, this 
means that the committers are ensuring that the code and other 
contributions that is being added to the project's CVS is properly 
contributed (via a committer w/ a CLA or on a public list where it's 
clear it's a freely given contribution) and properly licensed.

This is a subject we'll be discussing more on the general@ list, and I 
urge you to pay attention, participate and decide if this is something 
you wish to volunteer for.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 10:23:25 -0500 (EST)
Henri Yandell wrote:

 Agreed. Andy's highlighted the issue and I'm sure there'll be more
 aggressiveness on pushing threads that don't need to remain closed to this
 open forum.

About the issue of openness and closeness:

board@ is *public* for all the ASF members. (Any ASF
members can be a *read only member* to the board@ list)
board@ is open list? close list?

WS (WebServices) project discuss most of the important
issues at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] at the same time.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is open list? close list?

--

I think that jakarta should choose an appropriate method
which suffices for most of the jakarta committers' needs.

For example:
Create topics for discussion -- PMC list
Vote -- general@ (or another appropriate list : important issues)
PMC list (trivial issues)
Report to all the jakarta committers -- general@

--

Also, please read this (Roy T. Fielding said @ incubator list
at Fri, 26 Sep 2003)  all the jakarta committers and PMC members

--

 A release requires 3 +1 and a majority of those voting, wherein
 the only people allowed to vote are the PMC responsible for that
 code.  In other words, the usual rules apply -- it is simply harder
 to get the votes.

--

 According to the bylaws, the only people authorized to make 
 decisions
 on behalf of the ASF (including the decision to release code to the 
 general
 public) are officers or the PMC responsible for the project.  All other
 votes are to be ignored or considered advisory only, and no I don't care
 how long some of our umbrella projects have been ignoring that fact.

It seems that most of the committers in jakarta do not know
this fact. Before the discussion of *openness/closeness*, 
I think we should have common understanding on this.

Regards,

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 

Isn't everything you disagree with?

 I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that we
 are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
 of the things that are concerning us.


Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)


Glad you caught that.

-Andy
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 
Andrew C. Oliver
http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
For Java and Excel, Got POI?

The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
everything espoused in the above email.


 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 11:28 AM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on 
something.  That's commonly known as FUD.


I think the best way to describe what is going on in private is that 
we
are trying to get things organized enough to have a public discussion
of the things that are concerning us.

Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just 
that I disagree.  See the difference?


The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how 
to
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)

Glad you caught that.
The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we 
are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as 
much of the community as possible into that governance process to make 
things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is 
this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for 
the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially 
since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.

Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing 
Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Dirk Verbeeck
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:

Henri Yandell wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.


Who's the best person to nudge then? :)


Anyone.  Interested?
Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should 
join as well.

-- Dirk



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell

On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
 
  On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
 
  Henri Yandell wrote:
 
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an
  existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 
  Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
 
 
  Anyone.  Interested?

 Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should
 join as well.

Noted.

Hen


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Sam Ruby
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 17, 2003, at 10:19 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
private lists now.

|  Don't feed  |
|  the trolls  |

   |
   |
   |
--\|/
I must admit that that was my first reaction too, but observing the net 
effect of this email, good discussions are happening on [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
because of it.  Nothing in what I am about to say hasn't been said 
before, but hopefully pulling it all together will help people put the 
puzzle pieces together.

A few general comments:

* The assertion that decisions are being made on private lists is 
laughable.  The Jakarta bylaws are woefully out of date, as they were 
based on a different era where there was a ruling few who were 
responsible for wide oversight.  Mostly what has been discussed on the 
PMC mailing list is the process by which we decide the process to change 
the bylaws.  Exciting stuff, trust me.  And for those who are 
interested, decisions such as the one by log4j to become a project were 
made on the log4j mailing lists, as they should be.

*  The end goal is one where people feel empowered to make decisions. 
Not empowered in the '80s management buzzword sense, but empowered in 
terms of don't look to the pmc to make decisions for you.  Truth be 
told, the simplest way to achieve this is to place everybody who might 
potentially be affected by a decision on the PMC.  So, we are embarking 
on exactly that direction.  Incrementally.

*  This direction has implications.  If person x is on the Jakarta PMC, 
and codebase y is managed by Jakarta, then person x has a say over such 
matters as any releases of codebase y.  If this doesn't make sense, the 
solution is to put codebase y into a separate PMC.

*  There will always be discussions in private, particularly when they 
involve people issues.  A sister project recently had an issue dealing 
with a person voted down to become a commmitter, and this had a negative 
impact not only on that individual but on the community.  This project 
has since decided that all committer votes are to be done in private. 
While Jakarta hasn't yet had such an experience, it is worth noting that 
it is impossible to keep a secret when there are dozens of members on 
the PMC, but it is possible to keep such discussions out of Google 
searches and web archives.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -Original Message-
 From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
  member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.
 
 Do you feel that we'll still be an open source organization in more than
 name if all decisions end up being made on private PMC lists not open to the
 public?

Andrew,

I can see how you might see the private list as secretive, devious, or
underhanded. 

I just see a private list as a necessity, I couldn't imagine the % increase
in e-mail traffic if the pmc list was open to anyone, or it was carried
on the general list. There are enough tangential conversations on the
pmc list now, so say doubling the number of posters could increase the volume to 3-4X 
what it is now.

If you feel strongly enough about it, if you wanted to create a digest of what was 
said by sifting through all the emails here and post it on general daily that would be 
ok by me.

-Rob

-Rob



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.
 
 
 Isn't everything you disagree with?
 
 You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
 something.  That's commonly known as FUD.


I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?


I'm not sure you do.
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 

Ironic.

 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.


Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
isn't always convenient.
 
-Andy

 geir
 
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 8:02 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

This is FUD.  No decisions are being made in private.

Isn't everything you disagree with?
You are making assertions that aren't correct to cast doubt on
something.  That's commonly known as FUD.
I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions 
about
the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Remember what you said.  You said that decisions were being made in 
private.


Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should 
we
describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's 
just
that I disagree.  See the difference?

I'm not sure you do.
But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is 
you making things up.



The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
to
make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
Glad you caught that.
The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem, 
especially
since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.

Ironic.

Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place 
here.
No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
isn't always convenient.
And thinking things through isn't either.  But sometimes it must be 
done.

geir

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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
 
 I'm sorry, I hallucinated that we were having all of these discussions
 about
 the future of jakarta and how to best reorganize it on
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Remember what you said.  You said that decisions were being made in
 private.


Oh yes, I hallucinated the [VOTE] threads too.  Damn those hallucinations.
I hallucinated the refactoring proposal and everything.
 
 
 Which is IMHO, PRECISELY why it should take place here.  Why should
 we
 describe it if when we can let it describe itself?
 
 Here I disagree with you, and what you are saying isn't FUD - it's
 just
 that I disagree.  See the difference?
 
 
 I'm not sure you do.
 
 But do you see the difference, right? One is a disagreement, and one is
 you making things up.


No Gier, take a deep breath and determine whether you distinguish yourself
with this conversation.  I shall give you the honor of the last word.

-Andy
 
 
 
 The ironic thing is that the upshot of what we are discussing is how
 to
 make governance of Jakarta as inclusive as possible :)
 
 
 Glad you caught that.
 
 The private list of any PMC has it's place.  The specific problem we
 are solving has to do with governance of Jakarta and how to bring as
 much of the community as possible into that governance process to make
 things as transparent and accountable as possible.  Because there is
 this specific problem, I think that the private list is fine venue for
 the PMC to organize how it is going to approach the problem,
 especially
 since it's clear that we want to bring this to general@ ASAP.
 
 
 Ironic.
 
 Ignoring this is convenient to support a position characterizing
 Jakarta as not open, but ignores the facts of the matter, IMO.
 
 
 Yeah right.  I favor all of the present discussion on PMC@ take place
 here.
 No more secret discussions except when they MUST be secret...  Openness
 isn't always convenient.
 
 And thinking things through isn't either.  But sometimes it must be
 done.
 
 geir
 
 -- 
 Geir Magnusson Jr   203-247-1713(m)
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-18 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 18, 2003, at 5:39 PM, Dirk Verbeeck wrote:

Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
On Dec 18, 2003, at 9:30 AM, Andy Armstrong wrote:
Henri Yandell wrote:

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an 
existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.


Who's the best person to nudge then? :)
Anyone.  Interested?
Looks like there is some important stuff going on so maybe I should 
join as well.
Either you believe that everyone should join (as I do), or that no one 
should join (as the break up Jakarta crowd would implicitly have it) 
other than to run a website.

You get a big welcome from me if the former, and a good luck, do 
good work from me if the latter.

geir

-- Dirk



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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-17 Thread Henri Yandell

subjects have been:

how the PMC should work
organising a vote or something for a new pmc chair [5 or 6 people nominated so far]
how to ensure oversight of jakarta
general ramblings about jakarta futures in terms of TLPs and whether
   social pressure should ever be applied to move a project to TLP-ness
   [it shouldn't seems the end result here]
how to get more CLA's signed by committers
log4j has asked for TLP-ness, and the board voted in favour today
whether there should be a policy for jakarta wiki's, though it off-topic'd a bit

Some could have started on this list. Others could easily have moved to
this list after they went on, but moving to a new list is confusing to the
thread. Hopefully that'll improve, I'm sure Andy will be able to point out
at the start of threads when things should move to here. Some threads
did anyway.

As a slight aside, getting on the PMC list just means nudging an existing
member and pointing out that you are an active committer to Jakarta.

Hen

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now.
 --
 Andrew C. Oliver
 http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp
 Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI

 http://jakarta.apache.org/poi
 For Java and Excel, Got POI?

 The views expressed in this email are those of the author and are almost
 definitely not shared by the Apache Software Foundation, its board or its
 general membership.  In fact they probably most definitively disagree with
 everything espoused in the above email.


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Re: Just in case you're curious

2003-12-17 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata

On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 22:19:41 -0500
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:

 The reason everything is quiet here is all decisions are being made on
 private lists now. 

It would be okay unless all the decisions will have been made
on infrastructure@ list.

... ;-)

-- Tetsuya. ([EMAIL PROTECTED])


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