Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 19, 2003, at 3:33 PM, Costin Manolache wrote: Ted Husted : [SNIP] I agreed w/ every word from Costin. And look what's happening with logging: Now that it's a TLP, they are bringing-in the various Log4J compatibles. Now, there can be one Apache logging project serving every platform.

[OT] [JOKE] Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Brian McCallister
Holy war time: IoC TLP's public class Log4J implements JakartaAware, LoggingAware { ... } public class Log4J { public void setJakarta(Jakarta jakarta) { ... } public void setLogging(Logging logging) { ... } } public class Log4J { public Log4J(Jakarta jakarta,

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 19, 2003, at 2:27 PM, Ted Husted wrote: Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: ASF is a group of projects administered by the Apache board members. The board delegates certain responsibilities over to the PMCs of the individual projects while still maintaining the authority and management

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Sat, 20 Dec 2003 07:36:20 -0500 Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: One example might be a lawyer working closely w/ a community (for whatever reason) - that lawyer might be providing tremendous input and participation, but has no need/use for committership. That person could still be a member

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Ceki Gülcü
Log4j is not leaving. It is simply moving to a new room in the house, a room with a different label but still located within the same house. As any house, this house offers protection and comfort to its inhabitants. It is a place where developers can unleash their creative powers onto the world.

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
PROTECTED], Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 20, 2003, at 8:24 AM, Ceki Gülcü wrote: Log4j is not leaving. It is simply moving to a new room in the house, a room with a different label but still located within the same house. As any house, this house offers protection and comfort to its inhabitants. It is a place where developers

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Ted Husted
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: I'd say it the other way around. The ASF is a collection of communities that create and maintain codebases. To obtain infrastructure support and some legal protection, these communities donate the copyright of its software and ownership of its brand to the Foundation.

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Santiago Gala
El sábado, 20 dici, 2003, a las 14:00 Europe/Madrid, Geir Magnusson Jr. escribió: On Dec 19, 2003, at 2:27 PM, Ted Husted wrote: (...) A very subtle concept is that the ASF doesn't actually own the codebase. The codebase belongs to its community, and under the Apache License, that community

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Ted Husted
Santiago Gala wrote: [SNIP] This implies that those having easier ability or will to maintain the product are the effective owners of it. as in a rapidly changing environment, software rot takes care of static code bases. Exactly. There is a saying from Dune: Whoever has the power to destroy

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-20 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 20, 2003, at 11:36 AM, Santiago Gala wrote: El sábado, 20 dici, 2003, a las 14:00 Europe/Madrid, Geir Magnusson Jr. escribió: On Dec 19, 2003, at 2:27 PM, Ted Husted wrote: (...) A very subtle concept is that the ASF doesn't actually own the codebase. The codebase belongs to its

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Michael Davey
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? Henri Yandell wrote: Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. Jakarta is the *brand*. It defines

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Ted Husted
Michael Davey wrote: Jakarta is the *brand*. It defines itself. Jakarta brand development. A brand can give a unique identity and grouping to an otherwise disparate and commodity range of goods and services. Apache is a brand too, and, IMHO, a much stronger brand than Jakarta. I believe

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Geir Magnusson Jr.
On Dec 19, 2003, at 8:01 AM, Ted Husted wrote: Michael Davey wrote: Jakarta is the *brand*. It defines itself. Jakarta brand development. A brand can give a unique identity and grouping to an otherwise disparate and commodity range of goods and services. Apache is a brand too, and, IMHO, a

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
PROTECTED], Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Michael Davey
Ted Husted wrote: Michael Davey wrote: Jakarta is the *brand*. It defines itself. Jakarta brand development. A brand can give a unique identity and grouping to an otherwise disparate and commodity range of goods and services. Apache is a brand too, and, IMHO, a much stronger brand than

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Thanks Craig, this is elaborate, informative and puts the issue in my perspective. May be this should be put on the website too somewhere. Here are my inferences so far... inferences ASF is a group of projects administered by the Apache board members. The board delegates certain

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Craig R. McClanahan
Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thanks Craig, this is elaborate, informative and puts the issue in my perspective. May be this should be put on the website too somewhere. Here are my inferences so far... inferences ASF is a group of projects administered by the Apache

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Ted Husted
Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: ASF is a group of projects administered by the Apache board members. The board delegates certain responsibilities over to the PMCs of the individual projects while still maintaining the authority and management responsibilities. The PMC is responsible for a wholesome

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Costin Manolache
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Radical view: allow the subprojects to send 1-2 delegates to the PMC and require each subproject to send one or die. This would size the PMC, assure that heart attack in the crowd syndrome doesn't take place and make the discussion more manageable. Have the sub projects

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Costin Manolache
Ted Husted wrote: Michael Davey wrote: Jakarta is the *brand*. It defines itself. Jakarta brand development. A brand can give a unique identity and grouping to an otherwise disparate and commodity range of goods and services. Apache is a brand too, and, IMHO, a much stronger brand than

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-19 Thread Costin Manolache
:-) Costin - Original Message - From: Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 9:11 PM Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: On Thu, 18 Dec 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: IMO it would be sad if projects like struts or tapestry leave jakarta - since they are closely related to web development and server side java (

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Tetsuya Kitahata
On Thu, 18 Dec 2003 20:24:00 -0500 (Subject: Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?) Harish Krishnaswamy wrote: How about Jakarta = Java Development? Then, they all seem in place, no? -Harish +1. Agreed. Why don't Jakarta adopt EU-like governance style? (Board = Secretariat

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Henri Yandell
Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java, or

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
That's true, so back to Jakarta = Server side web development! But is it restricted only to Java web development or just plain web development? -Harish Henri Yandell wrote: Because it's wrong. XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Stephen Colebourne
Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject. But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe Bloggs works'. There simply is no one

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
I like the idea but does this mean we will be dumping the Jakarta banner? Or will it serve as an incubator for TLPs? The Jakarta banner has earned quite a reputation and would be a shame to dump it. -Harish Stephen Colebourne wrote: Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Phil Steitz
Stephen Colebourne wrote: Not really (my POV) As people we naturally think in terms of the hierarchy ASF to Jakarta to MySubProject. But the middle layer is artificial. It could just as well be XML or DB or WebApps or Java or C or 'Projects starting with S' or 'Projects where Joe Bloggs works'.

RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Henri Yandell wrote: XML has lots of Java bits, and Maven, Ant, Cocoon, Avalon, James are all Java Development and not in Jakarta. If we go with this approach, we end up with the continuation of: should digester be in jakarta or xml etc. Does XML take precedence over the fact it's in Java,

RE: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Noel J. Bergman
Costin Manolache wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: Noel J. Bergman wrote: There is a difference between a hierarchy and a confederation. There is absolutely nothing that says that we cannot have: [list of PMCs] All without a single change to the Jakarta domain. No one

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Harish Krishnaswamy
Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Bill Barker
: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project? Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish

Re: Jakarta: Confederation or Single Project?

2003-12-18 Thread Craig R. McClanahan
Quoting Harish Krishnaswamy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Could someone please explain the motivation behind the creation of Jakarta and how it got to where it is today? May be that would help answer some of the questions we have? -Harish These comments are going to be (like anyone's would be)