Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Donnie Berkholz
Matthias Langer wrote:
 no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
 this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
 becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 

Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.

Thanks,
Donnie



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[gentoo-dev] Re: Packages up for grab

2007-07-16 Thread josé Alberto Suárez López

I'm the gnap leader/maintainer since Thierry leave gentoo. We are
working in new releases.

El sáb, 14-07-2007 a las 12:13 +0200, Christian Heim escribió:
 The following packages need some love and/or a new maintainer:
 
 Previously maintained by Thierry Carrez (Koon):
 - dev-embedded/gnap
 - dev-embedded/gnap-dev
 - dev-embedded/gnap-ext
 



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[gentoo-dev] Re: Packages up for grab

2007-07-16 Thread Christian Heim
On Monday 16 July 2007 08:19:19 josé Alberto Suárez López wrote:
 I'm the gnap leader/maintainer since Thierry leave gentoo. We are
 working in new releases.

 El sáb, 14-07-2007 a las 12:13 +0200, Christian Heim escribió:
  The following packages need some love and/or a new maintainer:
 
  Previously maintained by Thierry Carrez (Koon):
  - dev-embedded/gnap
  - dev-embedded/gnap-dev
  - dev-embedded/gnap-ext

Then *PLEASE* update the metadata.xml ...

Regards,

   Christian

-- 
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[gentoo-dev] Re: iuse defaults example

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Mike Frysinger wrote:
 there are ways to make the USE=nocxx - USE=cxx transition nice and i plan
 on going that route
 
What would those/that be?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Andrew Gaffney

Donnie Berkholz wrote:

Matthias Langer wrote:

no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 


Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.


That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at 
large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy 
(which we currently aren't), then so be it.


--
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Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Vlastimil Babka
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
 Donnie Berkholz wrote:
 Matthias Langer wrote:
 no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
 this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
 becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 

 Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
 to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
 benefit other people, and so they use them.
 
 That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the
 community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as
 our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it.

Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close
#gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then...

- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Donnie Berkholz wrote:

 Matthias Langer wrote:
 no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
 this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
 becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers.
 
 Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
 to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
 benefit other people, and so they use them.
 
It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by users. Not
to mention documentation written, support provided on irc and in forums,
which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the small matter of
defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling of which are those
who criticise elitist ``devs''.

Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an
organisation without the users?

steveL -- sick of this attitude (and waiting for the oh but we're users
too; so be moderated like us then.)

Here's an idea: close the dev m-l and have a dev forum instead. If you
cannot maintain the level of civility we have to, how can you possibly
claim to represent Gentoo to the level expected?


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Michael Krelin


That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the 
community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as 
our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it.




Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, 
progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of 
obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look 
better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite.


Love,
H
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Michael Cummings
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Vlastimil Babka wrote:
 Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close
 #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then...

...or devs...

Seriously, no users == no community. Why? Because devs don't get along
with each other well enough to qualify as a community. It's really the
untold masses that make Gentoo a community. What's one of the top
resources cited as the greatness of Gentoo? The wiki. Which isn't even
official or sanctioned, but that is instead run largely by the community
at large.

Bah. This entire debate is extremely disheartening. How many devs out
there sprung from the ground pre-formed, and how many started out as
users in the community? *That* is the pool from which we draw our ranks,
from which we get our support and direction. This elitist attitude is
what drives the rationale devs to be hermits and just answer to their
small piece of the pie - because we don't give two figs about who's ego
is mightiest, just that we are producing something useful that makes us
happy, without breaking things for those dependent on us, the users.

Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question
just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs,
well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no
sense in working any further on perl-land.

Bah.


- --

- -o()o--
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Gentoo Perl Dev|on irc.freenode.net
Gentoo/SPARC
Gentoo/AMD64
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08

2007-07-16 Thread Tom Knight
On Mon, Jul 02, 2007 at 08:43:36PM +0100, Peter Weller wrote:
 I nominate...
 
 tomk

Thanks for the nomination but I'll have to decline as I haven't got enough
free time at the moment to be on the council.

Tom
-- 
Tom Knight
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Marius Mauch
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:42:44 -0400
Michael Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 Vlastimil Babka wrote:
  Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close
  #gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors
  then...
 
 ...or devs...
 
 Seriously, no users == no community. Why? Because devs don't get along
 with each other well enough to qualify as a community. It's really the
 untold masses that make Gentoo a community. What's one of the top
 resources cited as the greatness of Gentoo? The wiki. Which isn't even
 official or sanctioned, but that is instead run largely by the
 community at large.
 
 Bah. This entire debate is extremely disheartening. How many devs out
 there sprung from the ground pre-formed, and how many started out as
 users in the community? *That* is the pool from which we draw our
 ranks, from which we get our support and direction. This elitist
 attitude is what drives the rationale devs to be hermits and just
 answer to their small piece of the pie - because we don't give two
 figs about who's ego is mightiest, just that we are producing
 something useful that makes us happy, without breaking things for
 those dependent on us, the users.
 
 Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question
 just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs,
 well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no
 sense in working any further on perl-land.

I think you're misinterpreting those statements.
Consider if you have choose if you spend your time implementing a
feature that you personally want to have or one that a user wants (and
is of no use to yourself), which one would you choose, assuming that
both have the same cost?
It's all about priority, nothing more, nothing less.

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Alin Năstac
Steve Long wrote:
 Donnie Berkholz wrote:

   
 Matthias Langer wrote:
 
 no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
 this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
 becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers.
   
 Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
 to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
 benefit other people, and so they use them.

 
 It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by users. Not
 to mention documentation written, support provided on irc and in forums,
 which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the small matter of
 defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling of which are those
 who criticise elitist ``devs''.

 Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an
 organisation without the users?
   
No, Gentoo *the organisation/community* wouldn't be where it is today
without its users, that is for sure.
However, Gentoo devs - as individuals - don't owe to community anything.
Quite the contrary, if I may say so myself.

That being said, all devs are working on our beloved distro having the
common interest in mind, just it gets harder and harder to keep your
morale/motivation high while you are exposed to rants and flame wars
like this.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Andrew Gaffney

Vlastimil Babka wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Gaffney wrote:

Donnie Berkholz wrote:

Matthias Langer wrote:

no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 

Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.

That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the
community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as
our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it.


Are you people serious? Let's ban nondevs from bugzilla then? Close
#gentoo, disband PR, etc? Not sure if we can keep any sponsors then...


You misunderstand. I'm not saying that all non-devs can get bent and their 
opinions be damned. I'm just saying that at the core, Gentoo is still the same 
as it was back in the day. Gentoo isn't a commercial distribution, and nobody 
pays us, so we can do anything we want, whether the user community at large 
likes it or not. We ultimately answer only to ourselves.


--
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Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Andrew Gaffney

Marius Mauch wrote:

I think you're misinterpreting those statements.
Consider if you have choose if you spend your time implementing a
feature that you personally want to have or one that a user wants (and
is of no use to yourself), which one would you choose, assuming that
both have the same cost?
It's all about priority, nothing more, nothing less.


Yep, this is all anyone is trying to say. We aren't paid, so we work on what we 
feel like working on, and do what we feel like doing (within reason).


--
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Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Richard Freeman
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Andrew Gaffney wrote:
 
 Yep, this is all anyone is trying to say. We aren't paid, so we work on
 what we feel like working on, and do what we feel like doing (within
 reason).
 

This is the great difficulty with any open-source project, and yet most
work fairly well (including Gentoo despite all the talk in the last few
months).

Nobody is paying the devs to be devs.  Nobody is paying the ATs to be
ATs, nobody is paying the formum mods to keep things clean.  Nobody is
paying the users to submit bugs, or to humor the flamewars that often
follow in bugzilla.

Why are the users here?  Gentoo meets a need.

Why are the devs here?  Gentoo meets a need.

While they might have different roles, ultimately we all benefit from
working well together.  What the project needs to do is to create an
environment where each can succeed without burning out.  This requires
effort on all parts, and the occasional application of moderation
between the brain/keyboard interface (regardless of one's stance on ML
moderation I think we can all agree on this point).

I think that this particular debate is coming across fairly divisively,
and has the potential to be very damaging.  I think we need to choose
our words carefully.

Ultimately we're all here to scratch an itch of some kind.  To the
extent that devs work on projects that might not benefit themselves
personally we need to recognize and appreciate their charity.  For their
part devs have to realize that users often do recognize this and often
do try to go out of their way to humor some devs abrasive retorts in
bugzilla/etc (and this does not in ANY way apply to all, or even most,
devs).  There are both devs and users which give the larger population a
bad reputation, even though their individual contributions might warrant
their continued participation in Gentoo - and we all need to recognize this.

The fact is we all get further ahead in life when we learn to work
together.  Some here might not be in the working world yet - trust me -
corporate IT is a whole different beast whether you're working for a
start-up or an enterprise - say something rash to a customer or partner
and you might never work in the industry again (and that goes both ways
in the vendor/customer relationship).  For those already in the real
world - it is nice to have a project where one can pick and choose what
one works on without having to keep one's guard up - but all
interactions in life require some level of care if we ant to work together.

Ultimately fostering some level of professionalism has to be a goal of
the project.  It doesn't have to be so dry that there isn't any fun -
but raging flamewars will cause the project to bleed contributors,
future-contributors, and sponsors (those nice infrastructure servers
require power, bandwidth, hardware, and people to run them).  And we
don't need the bureaucracy associated with most large IT organizations
to accomplish this - just being polite goes a long way.  When somebody
treats you as if you're their personal slave do feel free to point it
out, but do so nicely and they'll probably get the point and bug you a
whole lot less in the future than if they just get a snappy retort.  And
extreme problem cases can always be dealt with using technical means
(bans/etc).
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Re: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors

2007-07-16 Thread Wernfried Haas
On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote:
 I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it.

Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. 
As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is
and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?).

cheers,
Wernfried

-- 
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Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)

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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Andrew Gaffney wrote:
 You misunderstand. I'm not saying that all non-devs can get bent and their
 opinions be damned. I'm just saying that at the core, Gentoo is still the
 same as it was back in the day. Gentoo isn't a commercial distribution,
 and nobody pays us, so we can do anything we want, whether the user
 community at large likes it or not. We ultimately answer only to
 ourselves.
 
Sure, but since you're only doing exactly what you want, when you want, why
do you guys keep bleating about how much work you have, and what
extravagant demands us lusers make on you?

And please don't tell me you're not proud of being a Gentoo dev, and it
doesn't help you personally in your careers. You're a bunch of selfish
malcontents according to your definition. Some coders know that without
users their code is worthless. NFC why anyone would want to be a ``dev''
like you outline.

If you don't like it, ignore it.

BTW I sincerely hope that isn't _all_ that motivates you, Mr Gaffney.
Doing anything [you] want, whether the user community at large likes it or
not, is a recipe for disaster for _any_ software project.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: council and proctors

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Wernfried Haas wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote:
 I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it.
 
 Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting.
 As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is
 and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?).
 
Is it just me, or has the current Council grown bored of posting links to
the logs to this list? There seem to be an awful lot of unannounced,
unlogged meetings, and one is at a loss to know whether these have been
full meetings or the two of us got together and decided sort of affair.

Code and conduct: the only things that really count.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: council and proctors

2007-07-16 Thread Petteri Räty
Steve Long kirjoitti:
 Wernfried Haas wrote:
 
 On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote:
 I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it.
 Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting.
 As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is
 and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?).

 Is it just me, or has the current Council grown bored of posting links to
 the logs to this list? There seem to be an awful lot of unannounced,
 unlogged meetings, and one is at a loss to know whether these have been
 full meetings or the two of us got together and decided sort of affair.
 
 Code and conduct: the only things that really count.
 
 

Logs yes but the monthly meetings have been at the same time in the same
place.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Thomas Tuttle

On Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:54:44 -0400, Daniel Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED]
said:
 I do like the gentoo-politics idea that came up a few weeks ago, which 
 was to move politics off gentoo-dev and to another list, but I'd view it 
 from another perspective (and avoid the words 'politics'): make 
 gentoo-dev for development topics only, and have another list for the 
 rest. But, I suspect we'd come back to the same problem on both lists, 
 where some people are too keen to talk and deviate too far away from 
 technical discussion.

On IRC, when a conversation wanders offtopic, one of the ops just nudges
the participants and says hey, you should move your conversation to
#gentoo-foo (or ##foo or whatever).  Wouldn't it be easy enough for
someone to do that here?  It'd be pretty easy to specify what's on- and
off-topic for each list, and it would be friendlier than moderation,
just like it's friendlier for IRC ops to ask you nicely to switch
channels than to simply kick you out.

--Thomas Tuttle
-- 
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Wulf C. Krueger
Hello Steve!

On Monday, 16. July 2007 18:17:00 Steve Long wrote:
 Sure, but since you're only doing exactly what you want, when you want,
 why do you guys keep bleating about how much work you have, and what
 extravagant demands us lusers make on you?

Now, now. You're a nice guy on IRC so what is this nonsense about? :-)

Yes, every single Gentoo dev is here for a reason. Some because they want 
to improve the stuff they use themselves, some want to be able to help 
users better (yes, such people exist! ;-) ) and some, like myself, simply 
have fun working on stuff they use *and* helping people by doing that.

(And then there are some idealistic motives but let's keep those aside for 
now.)

 And please don't tell me you're not proud of being a Gentoo dev, 

Yes, I admit it, I am because this is the finest Linux distribution I 
could find and because there are a lot of nice people around.

Yes, some Gentoo devs behave like morons some of the time, like myself 
again ;), but then, it's the same among the user base so I don't think 
this is something special between devs.

This thread is now a dumpster for every complaint any given dev or user 
may have and overly complicated ideas are exchanged to solve problems 
which I simply don't see we're having. Yes, there's a lot of traffic here 
which will soon drop back to normal once people realised they have beaten 
this horse to death quite a few postings ago.

Personally, I originally favoured the idea of making -dev r/o for anyone 
but Gentoo devs and have the latter moderate-in anyone else. Obviously, 
though, this meets with strong resistance by some users and devs so let's 
simply make this ominous -project mailinglist and see if/how it works.

I don't think either solutions makes much sense because it complicates 
matters unnecessarily but if people really lack a minimum of discipline 
*and* can't ignore the few loudmouths then so be it.

 and it doesn't help you personally in your careers. 

It doesn't help *me* in my career at all. :-)

I'm not in this for money, personal gains or accelerating my career 
anyway, though. I'm in this for fun, for the people (be they devs or 
users, I don't really care) and in the hope that I might make the world 
at least a wee, tiny bit better by what I do and how I try to do it.

 You're a bunch of selfish malcontents according to your definition. 

No, you're exaggerating. :-) Yes, the way some fellow devs stated it, was 
rather blunt but I'm sure they didn't mean it that way.

Best regards, Wulf


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 08:42:44 -0400
Michael Cummings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Talk like this, especially from people I respected, makes me question
 just what its worth to keep going. If Gentoo is only about the devs,
 well, I'm happy with the way things are now, they work for me, so no
 sense in working any further on perl-land.

You're still doing the work because you want to do it. The benefit to
you is that it fulfills you somehow, which means you're doing it for
yourself. You're interpreting things more narrowly.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:34:31 +0100
Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It also happens that bugs are reported, and patches provided, by
 users. Not to mention documentation written, support provided on irc
 and in forums, which are the envy of every OS out there. Oh and the
 small matter of defending Gentoo against detractors, the most telling
 of which are those who criticise elitist ``devs''.
 
 Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an
 organisation without the users?

And why do they contribute patches etc? Because it bugs them that
something is broken. Or maybe because it gives them pleasure to
help others. They're doing it for themselves too. In an open-source,
volunteer world, everyone contributes because it _in some way_ benefits
them to do so.

Thanks,
Donnie


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Jakub Moc
   __  __   _
|__  / _ \|  \/  |/ ___| |
  / / | | | |\/| | |  _| |
 / /| |_| | |  | | |_| |_|
/\___/|_|  |_|\(_)

Anyone tell me how can I get rid of this junk in my mailbox? Where's the
damned -announce list? Please, stop feeding this kind of debates down
everyone's throat.

:X


-- 
Best regards,

 Jakub Moc
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 Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95  B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E

 ... still no signature   ;)



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[gentoo-dev] About to retire

2007-07-16 Thread Ned Ludd
Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less.

dev-embedded/gpio 
dev-util/elfkickers 
net-firewall/arptables 
net-firewall/ebtables 
net-misc/netkit-telnetd 
net-misc/vconfig 
net-proxy/middleman (dead upstream)
net-wireless/chillispot 
sys-devel/sparse 

-- 
Ned Ludd [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Donnie Berkholz wrote:

Matthias Langer wrote:
  

no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 



Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.

  
That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) 
post I have ever read. You should be ashamed.


Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean they 
dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case then none 
of the current developers would have originally been part of the 
userbase to begin with.


Gentoo is becoming a joke, how many more developers have to leave? How 
many more harmful articles will it take? Users have left in droves and 
you seem to be becoming more and more insular the worse it gets.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] About to retire

2007-07-16 Thread Denis Dupeyron

On 7/16/07, Ned Ludd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
shits less.


We don't really know each others. Most of what I know about you is
through plasmaroo, and based on that I have the highest respect for
you. So here's my advice (yeah, I'm even older than Uncle Seemant):
drop those packages, take some time off, grab a fresh beer, whatever,
but don't retire. If you do, the tards win.

Denis.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] About to retire

2007-07-16 Thread Peter Volkov
В Пнд, 16/07/2007 в 10:50 -0700, Ned Ludd пишет:
 net-firewall/ebtables 
 net-misc/netkit-telnetd 

taken.

base-system, are there any objections if I add you as the herd? related
applications like iptables and other netkit-* apps belongs to your
herd...

 net-firewall/arptables 

and if I manage to fix bug 162886, I'll take this too.

-- 
Peter.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:16:45 +0100
George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Donnie Berkholz wrote:
  Matthias Langer wrote:

  no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read
  on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that
  it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own
  developers. 
 
  Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's
  paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to
  do also benefit other people, and so they use them.
 

 That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) 
 post I have ever read. You should be ashamed.

Well, I'm not. I have no idea what you read, but it doesn't appear to
be what I wrote.

 Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean
 they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case
 then none of the current developers would have originally been part
 of the userbase to begin with.

What relevance does this have to anything I said? I wasn't addressing
anything about being part of communities; I was addressing the
motivation of volunteers contributing to Gentoo.

Thanks,
Donnie


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[gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Doug Goldstein
So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
Celcius...

Discuss!

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Roy Marples
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
 to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
 vs Celcius...
 
 Discuss!

Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Vlastimil Babka
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Doug Goldstein wrote:
 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
 debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
 Celcius...
 
 Discuss!

I don't care, as long as the temperature is somewhere in the middle of
linear scale between freezing water and average healthy human body
temperature. And not higher than the latter, as nowadays!
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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[gentoo-dev] Re: So...

2007-07-16 Thread Christian Faulhammer
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
 to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
 vs Celcius...

 Did you know that a black body of that temperature would have a
heat flux density of 518,65 W/m^2?  Or for you imperal unit lovers:
1,008426495 hp/sqyd

V-Li

-- 
http://www.gentoo.org/
http://www.faulhammer.org/
http://www.gnupg.org/


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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Catalin Zamfir Alexandru
 On Monday 16 July 2007 19:12, Roy Marples wrote:
 On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400

 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
  to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
  vs Celcius...
 
  Discuss!

 Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here.

It's been 42 degrees Celsius in Bucharest Romania. Like Jamie [Mythbusters] 
used to say: You'd fry ... you'd boil.. Well ... I'm dying ...

-- 
Catalin Z. Alexandru,
Executive Editor;
E-Mail  : [EMAIL PROTECTED];
Mobile  : 0726.683.373;
Web : http://www.theg33ks.com/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Dale
Roy Marples wrote:
 On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400
 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
 to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
 vs Celcius...

 Discuss!
 

 Sorry, but on topic posts are not allowed here.
   

Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. 

I can't believe I am posting this.  I guess since we will not be allowed
to or not allowed to in a timely matter in the near future, I better
make good of it. 

Dale

:-)  :-)


Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Luis Medinas
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:
 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
 debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
 Celcius...
 
 Discuss!
 
Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with
Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to
Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C +
273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on
real life problems i have to solve.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Catalin Zamfir Alexandru
 On Monday 16 July 2007 19:27, Vlastimil Babka wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Doug Goldstein wrote:
  So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
  debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
  Celcius...
 
  Discuss!

 I don't care, as long as the temperature is somewhere in the middle of
 linear scale between freezing water and average healthy human body
 temperature. And not higher than the latter, as nowadays!
 - --
 Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
 Gentoo/Java
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For all those damned SUVs out there ...

-- 
Catalin Z. Alexandru,
Executive Editor;
E-Mail  : [EMAIL PROTECTED];
Mobile  : 0726.683.373;
Web : http://www.theg33ks.com/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Peter Weller
On Thu, 12 Jul 2007 13:24:32 -0700
Mike Doty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 All-
 
[..snip..]
 
 We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now
 would be the time.
 
 --taco

Eeer, I think this is one of the most idiotic ideas I've heard since
I started using Gentoo.

As I've seen before in various projects, a blacklist is *much* easier
to maintain than a whitelist, it makes *much* more sense to get a team
of people (not necessarily developers?) to moderate the Mailing Lists,
to a standard, complete, set of rules - was the CoC complete when the
Proctors started? Could this be why the idea didn't work originally?

A Mailing List should be treated like the forums and IRC, those who
misbehave get a warning. Then if they continue, a ban. They had their
chance, they fucked up, sod them.

And now there's people polluting the Mailing List with the freakin'
weather in what seems to be some form of a protest to the ML changes.
This is stupid. Don't make the changes. Make a complete set of rules for
moderation, appoint a suitable team of developers (and users?) to
moderate the mailing list, make sure that they've had experience in
moderation. Pick moderators from various timezones to ensure a timely
stop to any potential flamewars. Teach the people using the mailing
list that there is NO excuse for misbehaviour. A ban is a ban, you
can't get around it. No bribing high-up council members or devrel
members to get you unbanned. This will bring about a fall in the
system. The moderators should get the final word, end of. Keep
discussions *technical*, attempt not to bring personal differences into
the public. Take it off-list, just as you would PM someone on the
forums or IRC. It's the same thing.

Anyway, those are just my 2 cents.

welp


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:02:07 +0100
Peter Weller [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 The moderators should get the final word, end of.

That would only work if Gentoo could find decent moderators who are
prepared to put lots of effort into work that is, let's face it,
entirely unnecessary and serving no point beyond letting a few people
able to be seen to be 'doing something'.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh



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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Richard Freeman
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Dale wrote:
 On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400
 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   
 So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
 to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
 vs Celcius...

   
 
 Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. 
 

Well, as one of the nicer off-topic threads on this list, might I
mention that I always wanted to patent a thermostat that regulates heat
index (or comfort index - a combination of temp and humidity) instead of
temperature.  And not just a humidistat - I don't want to dump water
into the air if it is dry - I just want to turn down the AC when it is
dry...

Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of
getting a patent.  Then again, maybe somebody already has one but isn't
bothering to manufacture them - that would explain why I can't find one
for sale anywhere.

Instead I just have to set my temperature lower at night to compensate
for increased humidity - which is really just a lousy hack.  Where is
the Honeywell bugzilla when you need it...  :)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Wernfried Haas
On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote:
 On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:
  So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
  debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
  Celcius...
  
  Discuss!
  
 Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with
 Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to
 Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C +
 273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on
 real life problems i have to solve.

Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific
0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some
obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average
gentoo-dev poster. :-)

cheers,
Wernfried

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine

-- 
Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
#gentoo-forums (freenode)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Wernfried Haas wrote:

On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:

So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
Celcius...

Discuss!


Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with
Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to
Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C +
273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on
real life problems i have to solve.


Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific
0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some
obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average
gentoo-dev poster. :-)

cheers,
Wernfried

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine

tbh, you really need a different one for developers that takes into 
account how far above or below sea level you are because as the air gets 
thinner the mass of the water that is used to regulate their temperature 
would change in relation to the caffiene molecules

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Thomas Tuttle
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 19:49:23 +0200, Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
    __  __   _
 |__  / _ \|  \/  |/ ___| |
   / / | | | |\/| | |  _| |
  / /| |_| | |  | | |_| |_|
 /\___/|_|  |_|\(_)
 
 Anyone tell me how can I get rid of this junk in my mailbox? Where's the
 damned -announce list? Please, stop feeding this kind of debates down
 everyone's throat.

Hmm.  /me doesn't know any MUA's with a kill thread option off the top
of his head (especially one that would remember the Message-ID's so it
could kill new messages from the same thread) but in mutt you could hit
^D to delete the entire thread, IIRC.

--Thomas Tuttle
-- 
Thomas Tuttle - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.ttuttle.net/

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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Ryan Reich

Mike Doty wrote:

All-

We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only
devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post.  devs who moderate in
bad posts will be subject to moderation themselves.  in addition the
gentoo-project list will be created to take over what -dev frequently becomes.
there is no requirement to be on this new list.

This will probably remove the need for -core(everything gets leaked out anyway)
but that's a path to cross later.

We're voting on this next council meeting so if you have input, now would be
the time.

--taco


As a user rather than a dev I waited to respond to this until I saw
some of the discussion, since I'm new to Gentoo culture.  Most opinion
seems to have been extremely negative, along the lines of This will
kill Gentoo because it will alienate the users, together with some
very defensive responses from supporters, and a few who don't seem to
care at all.  I was also originally quite negative about it, but
rereading the statement I have come to see some merits in the general
idea.  Developers (who are required to read the list and for whose
continued collaboration and productivity it exists) should have the
ability to banish non-developers who abuse their subscriptions to make
technical discussions personal.  This is only reasonable.  However,
moderating this list will just place an obstacle in the path of casual
user participation and foster a sense of entitlement among the more
resentful developers (those would be the ones making claims that
Gentoo is not about what devs can do for the users, but merely about
everyone serving their own interests).

So a better solution would be to adopt the proposal for a
developer-moderated blacklist.  However, if such powers are expected
to be exercised routinely, simply issuing it carte blanche would be
ignoring a much larger issue having to do with the quality of the
developer community (not to be confused with the larger developer-user
community) itself.  A good example of a list which follows this sort
of policy, and which I also read (skim), is the linux-kernel mailing
list, which I consider to be perhaps the optimal open-source
developer's list.  It has high volume, which people here (and there)
sometimes dislike, but that's because they track contributions on the
list rather than through Bugzilla, so ignore that aspect.  The point
is that each and every conversation is on-topic, competent, technical,
and very patiently conducted.  Even when one developer makes strong
(sometimes very strong) remarks it is, as far as I have observed,
never met in kind.  They bury their egos for the sake of the project,
because they are all good at what they do, respected for it, and get
enough gratification from their work that they don't need to seek
cheap thrills through mailing-list flamewars (indeed, that would
detract from their job satisfaction).  Stupid, inflammatory, and
provocative letters are rarely answered and never develop into
flamewars, because no one dignifies them with responses.  On very rare
occasions I have seen a frivolous conversation (one about some penguin
game comes to mind), which reached a surprising saturation before one
of the lead developers threatened excommunication to the participants.
This is the ONLY time I have ever seen the blacklist powers
explicitly exercised, and it completely ended the idiocy.  Power
exercised with extreme caution will hit twice as hard when it finally
comes, because they'll know you mean it.

I mention this because it is a pretty high standard, but is in my
opinion just about the least you can really expect of a mailing list
for a volunteer software development project.  If this list
degenerates into regular flamewars, it is not the fault of the users;
there will always be idiots, but hopefully these people are too
self-centered to think of contributing to something like Gentoo.
Flamewars are the fault of the developers who participate in them,
though no one will like to hear me say this.  It's a developer's list
and the flamewars wouldn't go anywhere if only a small cabal of lusers
stoked them.  And from what I've said above, having observed it in the
LKML, if developers are doing this it's because they don't respect
their work enough, in which case, why do they continue developing?
But I've noticed three at least quitting since this discussion
started, so maybe they don't.  So before you go and moderate the list
in any form, think about why at least a few of your number are so
immature.  Maybe I'm wrong, and they do like their work, but at the
very least you should start by making a serious attempt to reform the
mailing list culture by pure social pressure before actually
implementing a moderation scheme.  After all, it's true that users are
granted access to this list as a privilege: the privilege of putting
in their two cents and thereby contributing to a project that takes
itself as seriously as the users apparently take it.  The only 

Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote:
 Oh dear.  slight delay in an email list forum?  That's like saying
 you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to
 wait 30 seconds before you can say anything  In effect you reduce that
 person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment.  The
 comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by
 the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on.

On a mailing list?

We're not talking IRC here.  We're talking mailing lists.

I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the
WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful
input.  Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server
will even pretend that it is.  Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between
posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of
anything.  After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I
am still managing to participate in this conversation.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
 That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community 
 at 
 large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal 
 toy 
 (which we currently aren't), then so be it.

Exactly.

I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it.  It scratches an itch
that I have.  I like using it personally and also professionally.  I
find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for
myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're
interested in changing things in the same manner as I am.  This is
exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer.

That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers,
will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but
until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on
what I choose to work on myself.

If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they
work on something that interests you, offer to pay them.  Unless they're
your employee, they owe you nothing.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:34 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
 Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an
 organisation without the users?

Who ever said that?

Please don't read your own whatever into what is being said.  I know I,
for one, don't really care what your opinion is on what Donnie said, and
would rather focus on what he actually said.

Gentoo developers work on Gentoo because they get something out of it.
Period.

Some developers do it solely out of the joy they feel by helping users.
Some developers do it solely to improve Gentoo for their own use.  Both
of these developers are just as selfish in that they work on Gentoo
because of what it bring to them.  Remember that we're not paid.  This
means that everyone here has some motivation, besides money, that keeps
us here.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 14:37 +0200, Michael Krelin wrote:
  
  That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the 
  community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as 
  our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it.
  
 
 Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, 
 progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of 
 obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look 
 better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite.

Well said...

Remember that if we really didn't give a crap about the community, we
wouldn't be writing open source software.  If we didn't care about the
users, we wouldn't release our software to them.  We wouldn't have a bug
tracker, forums, and all the other things that we do and maintain solely
for the community.

To phrase it in another manner that might make more sense, any given
developer is going to be more interested in fixing/changing what is
important or interesting to them than what some group of users wants
them to fix/change.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Torsten Veller
* Mike Doty [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
 We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only
 devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post.

What will you do when users start sending mail from dev addresses?

Thanks,
Torsten
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Andrew Gaffney

Torsten Veller wrote:

* Mike Doty [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

We're going to change the -dev mailing list from completely open to where only
devs can post, but any dev could moderate a non-dev post.


What will you do when users start sending mail from dev addresses?


There's nothing to prevent that now. That's part of the reason that devs are 
encouraged to sign their messages to the mailing lists.


--
Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/
Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote:

Oh dear.  slight delay in an email list forum?  That's like saying
you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to
wait 30 seconds before you can say anything  In effect you reduce that
person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment.  The
comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by
the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on.


On a mailing list?

We're not talking IRC here.  We're talking mailing lists.

I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the
WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful
input.  Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server
will even pretend that it is.  Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between
posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of
anything.  After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I
am still managing to participate in this conversation.

This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job 
description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could 
just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they 
are even there.


Seeing as most of them are forum mods there could even be a why was I 
blocked? thread in Feedback...


Their decision to forward emails to a -politics (or whatever it was) ML 
would be a great one

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[gentoo-dev] For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
:0
* ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org.
* ^Subject:.*ML changes
/dev/null

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chris Gianelloni
On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 23:30 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
 This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job 
 description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could 
 just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they 
 are even there.

Seeing as how our original ideas for how the proctors would work pretty
much fell exactly in line with this, I would say yes to your question.

Of course, I now tend to agree that having a larger pool of mods for
gentoo-dev is probably better.  It allows any developer to participate,
reducing the good ol' boy argument, since participation is open to all
developers.

-- 
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation


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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Will Briggs
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
 On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote:
 Oh dear.  slight delay in an email list forum?  That's like saying
 you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to
 wait 30 seconds before you can say anything  In effect you reduce that
 person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment.  The
 comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by
 the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on.
 
 On a mailing list?
 
 We're not talking IRC here.  We're talking mailing lists.
 
 I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the
 WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful
 input.  Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server
 will even pretend that it is.  Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between
 posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of
 anything.  After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I
 am still managing to participate in this conversation.
 

1) The smaller the moderation time, the smaller the benefit of having
moderation at all.  The greater the moderation time, the greater the
penalty for not being one of the in crowd.   3 hours is an
interesting figure to consider in this light and I would love to see
some justification as to why that is the sweet spot (if, in fact, a
sweet spot exists)

2) I agree - I too sleep between reading gentoo-dev.  But the difference
is that you are talking about a delay in reading the list (like, for,
yeah, sleep).  The proposal, however, is a delay between between your
awareness of the current state of the conversation (and your writing of
a reply), and the actual distribution of your reply.

So, for instance: someone asks a (technical) question, no-one has
replied, so I reply.  $moderation_delay later my answer is distributed,
but in the mean time n other people have answered.  I (or they depending
on whether they were moderated as well) look like an idiot, and the end
result is more noise on the list, not less.

And you can throw in a whole other bunch of the sorts of thing that can
happen in the delay between reading  writing, and the actual
distribution of the email -- clarifications, retractions (Don't worry
I've solved it emails), solutions, and even warnings from people that
the thread is off-topic!

This is only compounded when the thread needs a bit of to and fro (the
when you said X, did you mean X+Z? type email).

Email being what it is there are always posts that pass in the night
and double-ups and delays.  These, while minimal, are one of email's
inherent frustrations.  The proposal simply amplifies that frustration.

Moderation delay is not the same thing as having a sleep between
readings of the list.

W.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors

2007-07-16 Thread Ferris McCormick
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 17:08:31 +0200
Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Sun, Jul 15, 2007 at 05:11:56PM +0200, Timothy Redaelli wrote:
  I have always thought that proctors/COC is useless, I vote to remove it.
 
 Proctors have already been removed in the last council meeting. 
 As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is
 and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?).

I am sure not devrel.  That's one reason we had proctors to begin
with.  Council, I guess.
 
 cheers,
   Wernfried
 
 -- 
 Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org
 Gentoo Forums - http://forums.gentoo.org
 forum-mods (at) gentoo.org
 #gentoo-forums (freenode)
Wernfried, regards,

- -- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at 
large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy 
(which we currently aren't), then so be it.


Exactly.

I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it.  It scratches an itch
that I have.  I like using it personally and also professionally.  I
find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for
myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're
interested in changing things in the same manner as I am.  This is
exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer.

That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers,
will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but
until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on
what I choose to work on myself.

If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they
work on something that interests you, offer to pay them.  Unless they're
your employee, they owe you nothing.

Maybe you should change the Gentoo philosophy: 
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml


Us, the Gentoo Proletariat, respect the developers because of the great 
work they do for free but that doesn't absolve you of any responsibility 
towards Gentoo, quite the opposite. The Gentoo philosophy and how it 
states the need for Gentoo to accomodate the needs of it's users 
establishes a minimum level of responsibility from the Distro to it's 
userbase so basically stating I do what I want and how I want is not 
in keeping with the way Gentoo was meant to be run and shouldn't be how 
it is being run at this moment in time.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Michael Krelin

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 14:37 +0200, Michael Krelin wrote:
That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the 
community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as 
our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it.


Of course Gentoo owes to the community a lot. A lot of its progress, 
progress of the applications included, etc. But it's not a matter of 
obligation. Being nice to others is a nice thing to do and a way to look 
better too. The opposite is... well, the opposite.


Well said...

Remember that if we really didn't give a crap about the community, we
wouldn't be writing open source software.  If we didn't care about the
users, we wouldn't release our software to them.  We wouldn't have a bug
tracker, forums, and all the other things that we do and maintain solely
for the community.


I didn't doubt Gentoo attitude towards community. This is why statements 
like the one above strike me as exceedingly out of place.



To phrase it in another manner that might make more sense, any given
developer is going to be more interested in fixing/changing what is
important or interesting to them than what some group of users wants
them to fix/change.


This is an attempt to make sense of the statement, which, interpreted 
this way is absolutely irrelevant to the issue at hand.


Love,
H
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RE: [gentoo-dev] council and proctors

2007-07-16 Thread Chrissy Fullam
 
Ferris McCormick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 As far the CoC is concerned, i'm not sure what the current status is 
 and if anyone is supposed to enforce it atm (devrel? userrel?).

 I am sure not devrel.  That's one reason we had proctors to begin
 with.  Council, I guess.

While I cant say for sure what fmccor meant by the above comment, I can say
that he is speaking for himself, not on behalf of the Developer Relations
team.
Developer Relations will continue to assist on requests and any extra bit
that we can. We will see which way this ML thing takes Gentoo and offer our
support in any way we can.

Kind regards,
Christina Fullam
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | GWN Author


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Chris Gianelloni wrote:

 On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:34 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
 Are you really claiming that Gentoo could possibly function as an
 organisation without the users?
 
 Who ever said that?
 
 Please don't read your own whatever into what is being said.  I know I,
 for one, don't really care what your opinion is on what Donnie said, and
 would rather focus on what he actually said.
 
Yeah well maybe then you could focus on what I actually said meaning the
whole of the mail, as opposed to just part of it. And if you don't care
what I think, just ignore me fgs.. God knows you're close to my procmail
script. What? You troll..

Oh noes! It posts from a gentoo.org address. Excuse me while I swoon (not.)


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[gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08

2007-07-16 Thread Ryan Hill
Torsten Veller wrote:
 | for the quick low down:
 |  - nominations are from July 1 through July 31
 |  - anyone can nominate
 |  - only Gentoo devs may be nominated
 | 
 | so get with the nominating people !

I noticed Kumba isn't nominated, so I'll throw him into the ring.


-- 
dirtyepic salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed
 gentoo org  it could suck an ancient virus from the sea
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Chris Gianelloni wrote:

 On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 23:30 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
 This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job
 description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could
 just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they
 are even there.
 
 Seeing as how our original ideas for how the proctors would work pretty
 much fell exactly in line with this, I would say yes to your question.
 
So why did you shaft them?

 Of course, I now tend to agree that having a larger pool of mods for
 gentoo-dev is probably better.  It allows any developer to participate,
 reducing the good ol' boy argument, since participation is open to all
 developers.
 
OFC you do!



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Re: [gentoo-dev] New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)

2007-07-16 Thread Camille Huot

Welcome p-y!

2007/7/15, Pierre-Yves Rofes [EMAIL PROTECTED]:


@Remi: Yeah, the french conspiracy strikes again :D
btw, I hope we'll have an opportunity to meet all the frenchies near Paris
around some beers one of these days :)


Be sure we will ;)
--
Camille Huot
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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Donnie Berkholz wrote:

 Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean
 they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case
 then none of the current developers would have originally been part
 of the userbase to begin with.
 
 What relevance does this have to anything I said? I wasn't addressing
 anything about being part of communities; I was addressing the
 motivation of volunteers contributing to Gentoo.
 
Well maybe you should bear in mind that you are talking in front of the
whole community.

Reply-To Munging? irrelevant ofc.

Amateurs..

Sorry amne, but they are.. How many of them are even over 30, as a
percentage?

/ignore Thread is now on.. honestly guys, grow up. Flames off-list please.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Chris Gianelloni wrote:

 :0
 * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org.
 * ^Subject:.*ML changes
 /dev/null
 
Sorry was there some reason the rest of us had to read this? If so, please
explain it like a responsible Council member. Or is this your swansong? If
so it's l4m3.



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[gentoo-dev] Re: About to retire

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Denis Dupeyron wrote:

 On 7/16/07, Ned Ludd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Well it's clear that nearly everybody is a fucking tard on this list. So
 before I depart. Here is a list of shit that's going to need to be
 maintained or dropped from the tree. Do what you will I could give two
 shits less.
 
 We don't really know each others. Most of what I know about you is
 through plasmaroo, and based on that I have the highest respect for
 you. So here's my advice (yeah, I'm even older than Uncle Seemant):
 drop those packages, take some time off, grab a fresh beer, whatever,
 but don't retire. If you do, the tards win.
 
++ (from someone you prob'y consider a tard, but who nonetheless holds you
in the highest [technical] regard.)

portage-utils rocks, and so does qxpak.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Petteri Räty wrote:

 It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves
 py Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security
 team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his
 studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?)
  as a security network engineer for a small consulting company.

YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done for
getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis.

 Please give him the usual flamy welcome.
 
/me lights the barbecue.. ;)


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[gentoo-dev] Re: ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

 On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 21:02:07 +0100
 Peter Weller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 The moderators should get the final word, end of.
 
 That would only work if Gentoo could find decent moderator
Sorry I know I said ignore thread but really: just cos the forum mods
banned you it really doesn't make them indecent moderators.. It just
means you need to change your behaviour. Think about it.

 who are 
 prepared to put lots of effort into work that is, let's face it,
 entirely unnecessary and serving no point beyond letting a few people
 able to be seen to be 'doing something'.
 
Yes dear. _yawn_

And now Ignore Thread really _is_ on.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: So...

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Richard Freeman wrote:
 Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of
 getting a patent.

Nah, you have a year to file in the US ;) The ROTW might not agree, however.


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[gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread Ryan Hill
Steve Long wrote:
 Chris Gianelloni wrote:
 
 :0
 * ^List-Id:.gentoo-dev.gentoo.org.
 * ^Subject:.*ML changes
 /dev/null

 Sorry was there some reason the rest of us had to read this? If so, please
 explain it like a responsible Council member. Or is this your swansong? If
 so it's l4m3.

Please stop blatantly trolling.  It will not be tolerated on this list.

-- 
dirtyepic salesman said this vacuum's guaranteed
 gentoo org  it could suck an ancient virus from the sea
  9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3  5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8)

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RE: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread Chrissy Fullam
Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on
topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything.
If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect
them enough to allow them their own opinion.
The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes.
If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make
alternative suggestions. 

The original proposed idea:
* Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by
non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails
should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the
right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate.
Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for
further action. Devs would be required to be on this list.
* Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a
requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really
isnt development related.

I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no
good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up
with those alternatives. 

Kind regards,
Christina Fullam
Gentoo Developer Relations Lead | GWN Author

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08

2007-07-16 Thread Jan Kundrát
I'd also like to nominate mcummings (he's an old guy in Gentoo land and
his mails look reasonable), lack (he's a bit fresher, but his mails are
good) and kumba (old guy, nice mails).

XML has been updated.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub  more beer  /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)

2007-07-16 Thread Luis Francisco Araujo
Steve Long wrote:
 Petteri Räty wrote:
 
 It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves
 py Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security
 team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his
 studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?)
  as a security network engineer for a small consulting company.

 YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done for
 getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis.
 

Can you please stop sending these kind of harmful emails?

Thanks,

-- 

Luis F. Araujo araujo at gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chrissy Fullam wrote:

Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on
topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything.
If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect
them enough to allow them their own opinion.
The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes.
If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make
alternative suggestions. 


The original proposed idea:
* Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by
non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails
should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the
right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate.
Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for
further action. Devs would be required to be on this list.
* Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a
requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really
isnt development related.

I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no
good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up
with those alternatives. 

Stopping or postponing technical posts on -dev will always be counter 
productive. Just create a topic in another list (-politics sounds a good 
one), forward all further responses there and if necessary create a new 
post to -dev to carry on the original discussion. The people involved in 
the -politics discussion can then carry it on somewhere else.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll
then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a
stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne
never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done
to death or anything, is it?

And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.


Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. 
Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this 
subject. Capiche?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll
then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a
stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne
never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done
to death or anything, is it?

And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.


Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. 
Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this 
subject. Capiche?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread Doug Goldstein

Richard Freeman wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Dale wrote:

On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:06:37 -0400
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves
to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit
vs Celcius...

  
Well, let's throw in the effect of humidity too. 



Well, as one of the nicer off-topic threads on this list, might I
mention that I always wanted to patent a thermostat that regulates heat
index (or comfort index - a combination of temp and humidity) instead of
temperature.  And not just a humidistat - I don't want to dump water
into the air if it is dry - I just want to turn down the AC when it is
dry...

Then again, I guess this post pretty-much obliterates my chance of
getting a patent.  Then again, maybe somebody already has one but isn't
bothering to manufacture them - that would explain why I can't find one
for sale anywhere.

Instead I just have to set my temperature lower at night to compensate
for increased humidity - which is really just a lousy hack.  Where is
the Honeywell bugzilla when you need it...  :)
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That's an awesome idea. Seriously, get this made. I want to buy one now. 
You name the price!


Amazingly enough, this thread brought up a product development 
discussion after all.


--
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread Vlastimil Babka
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steve Long wrote:
 And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.

Why would anyone do that? His trolling is sophisticated, but you're just
an annoying spammer.
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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[gentoo-dev] Re: Re: New developer: Pierre-Yves Rofes (p-y)

2007-07-16 Thread Steve Long
Luis Francisco Araujo wrote:

 Steve Long wrote:
 Petteri Räty wrote:
 
 It's a joint pleasure for me and diox to introduce to you Pierre-Yves
 py Rofes. Instead of the snake people he will be joining our security
 team. Py originates from Paris, France, and has just finished his
 studies in computer science. He'll be hired soon (or maybe already was?)
  as a security network engineer for a small consulting company.

 YAY! aiui there's only 4 or 5 people in the security team, so well done
 for getting another sucker^H^H^H volunteer, Tavis.
 
 
 Can you please stop sending these kind of harmful emails?
 
It was a joke araujo, and not in the same context as any other mail. I have
seen many others similar, and if you or any one else wishes to raise it
with the proctors, the council or whoever else, I will look for the
precedents in the mailing-list archives.

 Thanks,
 
yw.


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[gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball

2007-07-16 Thread Alin Năstac
I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].

Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
context of the upcoming ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create command.

The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream doesn't
offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from their svn
repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in pkg_setup() to
create it
(see the ebuild), but now ebuild $PF.ebuild setup verify the digest before
running pkg_setup().

[1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567



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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball

2007-07-16 Thread Marius Mauch
On Tue, 17 Jul 2007 07:25:02 +0300
Alin Năstac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].
 
 Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
 context of the upcoming ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create command.
 
 The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream
 doesn't offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from
 their svn repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in
 pkg_setup() to create it
 (see the ebuild), but now ebuild $PF.ebuild setup verify the digest
 before running pkg_setup().
 
 [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567

Two questions:
- are there more packages that could benefit from this?
- is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the
ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script?

Marius

-- 
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball

2007-07-16 Thread Alin Năstac
Marius Mauch wrote:
 Two questions:
 - are there more packages that could benefit from this?
   

None that I know of. However, there might be other similar packages
without a source tarball (slim chance, but quite possible). At first, I
asked upstream to provide such tarball, but I got refused because
SourceForge file release process is far too annoying.
As a side note, if bitpim wasn't such a fairly popular package, I
wouldn't even bother with it (personally I don't use it).

 - is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the
 ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script?
   

There are 2 reasons:
  a) convenience - no need to pass version to the script
  b) maintainability - easy to take over when I will be gone

P.S: The name proposed by me isn't exactly right, as Mike already
remarked on the bug. I suggest to use src_create as function name.



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Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC : New ebuild function pkg_create for creating corespondent sorce tarball

2007-07-16 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Tuesday 17 July 2007, Marius Mauch wrote:
 Alin Năstac [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  I was asked to discuss here a portage enhancement proposed by me [1].
 
  Basically I need a pkg_create() that will be executed only in the
  context of the upcoming ebuild ${PF}.ebuild create command.
 
  The package where I need it is app-mobilephone/bitpim. The upstream
  doesn't offer a source tarball, so I need to construct it myself from
  their svn repository. Up till recently, I used some hackery in
  pkg_setup() to create it
  (see the ebuild), but now ebuild $PF.ebuild setup verify the digest
  before running pkg_setup().
 
  [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=185567

 Two questions:
 - are there more packages that could benefit from this?
 - is there a particular reason this has to be integrated into the
 ebuild and should not be handled by an ordinary script?

i'll have to ponder for a while, but in the past, i could have made use of 
something like this ... lacking it, i had hand written scripts to do it for 
me.  every case where i needed this though it was a similar situation -- 
upstream did not provide a release, but did provide SCM access.  actually, 
netpbm is another example of where this could be utilized as they only tag 
releases in their svn, not roll tarballs ...
-mike


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