Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Michal Kurgan
On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:17:48 +0100
Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Sat, 31 May 2008 03:03:42 +0200
 Luca Barbato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
   Which is where the design flaw is -- as-needed incorrectly assumes
   that the only type of dependency between shared objects is a name
   dependency. This isn't true with C++ static initialisers.
  
  I don't see why should be different than abusing .init in any other 
  language that let you do (ok, C, C++, asm mostly).
 
 In C++ it's not abuse. It's using the language as specified and
 designed.
 

Would that be possible for you (or anyone else) to point or provide
example of code that breaks after use of as-needed?

-- 
Michal Kurgan
http://dev.gentoo.org/~moloh


-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Roy Marples
On Saturday 31 May 2008 00:16:31 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
  Ok, then everything in the tree is covered and we can move to having
  --as-needed as default.

 Is the next version of everything in the tree covered? Have you made
 sure that software isn't merely working by fluke? 

We interupt this thread with breaking news!
A troll claims that future software packages may break!
This reporter sure hopes that the developers in question actually tests 
packages before they commit.
I, for one, welcome our new --as-needed Overlords.

 Is Gentoo really that desperate to turn everyone into a ricer?

Everyones ride should be pimped.

Thanks

Roy
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Peter Volkov
В Птн, 30/05/2008 в 20:28 -0700, Brian Harring пишет:
 Either way, basically it's coming down to if gentoo wants to follow 
 the definition of 'academic' right, or 'pragmatic' right. Exempting 
 ciaran, vote seems to be pragmatic.

Well, although I've asked about problems with having --as-needed by
default, I'd better go with academic. C++ is quite common language to
ignore its design problems and in the end it's not hard to define
LDFLAGS in make.conf.

-- 
Peter.

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Tobias Scherbaum
Mike Frysinger wrote:
 net-ftp/ncftp

i can take this one

wkr,
  Tobias


signature.asc
Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil


Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote:

I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these.

 net-misc/ntp

It would be good if someone took this, because a ton of people use it.

 net-misc/dropbear
 sys-libs/uclibc

I'd really like for someone to pick these up, since they're pretty 
critical for Gentoo on embedded systems.

Thanks,
Donnie
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Raúl Porcel

Mike Frysinger wrote:

net-misc/vnc


I already maintain that :P
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Tiziano Müller
Donnie Berkholz wrote:

 On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote:
 
 I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these.
 
 net-misc/ntp
might be a candidate for the sysadmin-herd.

Cheers,
Tiziano


-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread David Leverton
On Saturday 31 May 2008 11:14:33 Luca Barbato wrote:
 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
  Fact: the underlying issue is a libtool bug.

 Wrong, it isn't just that, --as-needed and libtool are unrelated.

The issue that as-needed tries to solve is libraries being linked to binaries 
or other libraries that don't use said library directly.  While it's true 
that libtool isn't the only cause, it does produce by far the most.

  Fact: as-needed does not fix this bug. It attempts to work around it.

 Wrong, --as-needed does exactly what is supposed to do, precise
 bookkeeping.

It does do what it's supposed to do, unfortunately what it's supposed to do 
isn't the right thing in all cases.  And it's not precise, it simply uses a 
different criterion that's better in some cases and worse in others.

  Fact: as-needed breaks standard-compliant code.

 Wrong, --as-needed breaks disputable code that happens to be
 standard-compliant by a specific read of the standard. The fact the
 specific code is something wrong from the security/style/maintainability
 point makes it a bonus.

No-one's given any reason why it's disputable, worse style or 
less maintainable, other than it doesn't work with --as-needed, quite a 
circular argument.  As for security... please show evidence, or I'll have 
to assume that that's just desperate FUD.

  Fact: fixing the libtool bug would give all the benefits purportedly
  given by using as-needed, without the drawbacks.

 Wrong, fixing libtool gives other benefits, so it's worth trying to fix
 it as well. The new autotools and proper usage of them makes life easier
 so it's worth improving on this side.

I really don't see what you're trying to say there
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Luca Barbato

Peter Volkov wrote:

В Птн, 30/05/2008 в 20:28 -0700, Brian Harring пишет:
Either way, basically it's coming down to if gentoo wants to follow 
the definition of 'academic' right, or 'pragmatic' right. Exempting 
ciaran, vote seems to be pragmatic.


Well, although I've asked about problems with having --as-needed by
default, I'd better go with academic. C++ is quite common language to
ignore its design problems and in the end it's not hard to define
LDFLAGS in make.conf.



To clarify:

- static initializers (as in __attribute__((constructor), so no, it 
isn't a C++ only feature) have nothing wrong with --as-needed.


- ugly code that refers to undefined symbols that are resolved to ones 
from the main binary and written in the constructor is broken already in 
 systems not allowing undefined refs.


- you don't have guarantees about the order in witch the .init sections 
are parsed and constructor function are called, they can be called in 
parallel and you have no means to have a predictable behavior, all you 
know is that everything will be called right before main() or as the 
first thing in dlopen().


- doing such stuff is uncommon since it isn't the simplest thing to do, 
doesn't work in every place, you have to be particular perverse and 
convoluted even to think about this.


- making such thing go away is good for security, maintainability and 
sanity.


lu

--

Luca Barbato
Gentoo Council Member
Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Alexis Ballier

 A.  Convince the portage developers to put it in
 make.conf/make.defaults.


By the way, I'm strongly opposed to this: it should be, at best, in the
profiles.
For instance, as long as bug #192403 isn't fixed, as-needed will cause
*a lot* of build failures on fbsd since gcc specs are broken and wont
append the -lc for shared libraries and -lpthread when -pthread is
used if I remember correctly.

Regards,

Alexis.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Marius Mauch
On Sat, 31 May 2008 04:26:39 -0700
Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Just to jump in quickly; this thread is about adding --as-needed to
 the default CFLAGS.  To get this accomplished you need to:
 
 A.  Convince the portage developers to put it in
 make.conf/make.defaults.

Wrong.

We don't control make.conf (the user does) or make.defaults (profile
maintainers do). 
We only control make.conf.example (which these days
only serves as documentation) and make.globals (which isn't the right
place for any arch-specific stuff, and CFLAGS are arch-specific by
definition).

Marius
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)

2008-05-31 Thread Duncan
Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted
[EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on  Sat, 31 May 2008
04:03:38 +0100:

 The correct fix is to make libtool only link to dependencies of
 dependencies when doing, for example, static linking. Debian has a
 half-working patch for this that I posted earlier in the thread.

Thanks.  That explanation (mostly snipped for brevity) was a great plain 
English explanation for those of us trying to follow along but not 
making any claim to be great programmers or at understanding the depths 
of libtool.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Philip Webb
080531 Mike Frysinger wrote:
 many of these are low maintence ...
 i'd forgotten i was even listed under them 
 as i havent seen a bug report in a long time.
 some i added (well probably too many) on a lark,
 so if they do end up being crappy and no one cares,
 i guess that's why we have a tree cleaners group.
...
 net-misc/ntp

This is rather basic, isn't it ?  It keeps your clock accurate.
Is there any alternative ?

 media-gfx/feh

This is an excellent app  seems usually bug-free.
I hope someone keeps an eye on it.

-- 
,,
SUPPORT ___//___,  Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
ELECTRIC   /] [] [] [] [] []|  Centre for Urban  Community Studies
TRANSIT`-O--O---'  University of Toronto
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Ali Polatel
Mike Frysinger yazmış:
 no herd:
 dev-libs/libtomcrypt
 dev-libs/libtomfloat
 dev-libs/libtommath
 dev-libs/libtompoly
 dev-libs/tomsfastmath

I'll take these if noone else wants them. I use them from time to time
for my studies.

-- 
Regards,
Ali Polatel


pgpzikkFYJLHN.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Jeroen Roovers
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:09:33 -0400
Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 net-ftp/ncftp

Yoink!


Kind regards,
 JeR
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Thilo Bangert


  net-misc/ntp

 This is rather basic, isn't it ?  It keeps your clock accurate.
 Is there any alternative ?

net-misc/openntpd - by the OpenBSD folks...

http://openntpd.org/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenNTPD

regards
Thilo


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.


[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Ali Polatel
Thilo Bangert yazmış:
 
 
   net-misc/ntp
 
  This is rather basic, isn't it ?  It keeps your clock accurate.
  Is there any alternative ?
 
 net-misc/openntpd - by the OpenBSD folks...
 
 http://openntpd.org/
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenNTPD

Or net-misc/clockspeed :-)


 
 regards
 Thilo

-- 
Regards,
Ali Polatel


pgpTI21xw09yX.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Saturday 31 May 2008, Donnie Berkholz wrote:
 On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote:

 I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these.

i think some of the herds are capable without a specific maintainer ... in 
this case, base-system and embedded wrt these three packages
-mike


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.


[gentoo-dev] profile shift for arm/s390/sh from stable to dev

2008-05-31 Thread Mike Frysinger
ive made this shift in profiles.desc:
sed -ir '/^(arm|s390|sh)/s:stable:dev:' profiles.desc
if/when we get dedicated arch maintainers, they can think about shifting back
-mike


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.


Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Gilles Dartiguelongue
Le samedi 31 mai 2008 à 13:31 -0400, ben tucker a écrit :
 Hi Mike,
 
 I am a good candidate for taking over maintenance of these, as my day
 job is a security developer for the world's largest software delivery
 infrastructure company for remote applications :-).
 
 net-libs/libvncserver
 net-misc/vnc
 
 I wouldn't mind taking app-editors/hexcurse over as well.
 
 What is the procedure be for me to take over maintenance of these
 three packages?

Option 1: become a gentoo developer
Option 2: find a gentoo developer willing to be your proxy

-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo


signature.asc
Description: Ceci est une partie de message	numériquement signée


Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs

2008-05-31 Thread Tobias Klausmann
Hi! 

On Sat, 31 May 2008, Philip Webb wrote:

 080531 Mike Frysinger wrote:
  many of these are low maintence ...
  i'd forgotten i was even listed under them 
  as i havent seen a bug report in a long time.
  some i added (well probably too many) on a lark,
  so if they do end up being crappy and no one cares,
  i guess that's why we have a tree cleaners group.
 ...
  net-misc/ntp
 
 This is rather basic, isn't it ?  It keeps your clock accurate.
 Is there any alternative ?

Yes, net-misc/openntpd and net-misc/chrony are alternatives.

Regards,
Tobias
-- 
fs_dprintk (FS_DEBUG_INIT, Ha! Initialized OK!\n);
linux-2.6.6/drivers/atm/firestream.c
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS

2008-05-31 Thread Ulrich Mueller
[Answering to some random message in this long thread.]

 On Sat, 31 May 2008, Brian Harring wrote:

 So... folks have pointed out a benefit to using --as-needed.
 The benefit itself doesn't seem particularly in dispute, analyze
 the fallout from it- if the best that is offered is the spec says
 otherwise, screw the spec frankly- a .01% breakage w/ 99.99% pkgs
 getting a positive gain is a strong argument for doing exemptions
 where needed.

Speaking about statistics: Either I have missed it, or so far nobody
has presented any solid numbers showing what the benefit of
--as-needed in terms of memory usage or program startup time is.

Could someone please show this comparison for some common programs?

I've just done this for Emacs (22.2-r2), virtual set size directly
after startup is 25280 and 25276 kB, for Emacs built without and with
--as-needed, respectively (resident set size is 14412 and 14396 kB).
I don't see any difference in startup time.

But maybe Emacs is an uncommon application, or I am looking for the
wrong things? Could one of the experts please shed some light on this?

Ulrich
-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS

2008-05-31 Thread Mike Auty

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ulrich Mueller wrote:
| But maybe Emacs is an uncommon application, or I am looking for the
| wrong things? Could one of the experts please shed some light on this?

I think you're looking for the wrong things.  I'm not an expert, but I
think --as-needed means that if there are 20 libraries on your system
that use libexpat.so.0 and 400 programs that use those 20 libraries,
when libexpat is updated to libexpat.so.1, you only need to rebuild the
20 libraries, not all 420 packages (as you would do otherwise).  I
believe that's the main reason for using as-needed...

Mike  5:)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAkhBp9oACgkQu7rWomwgFXr8JQCfYFDwcebduPVaY3yqUIEfVOxp
G80AoKV6SsAewxyyfv+fsiwbc6M1BHsc
=12e5
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] profile shift for arm/s390/sh from stable to dev

2008-05-31 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Saturday 31 May 2008, Mike Frysinger wrote:
 ive made this shift in profiles.desc:
 sed -ir '/^(arm|s390|sh)/s:stable:dev:' profiles.desc
 if/when we get dedicated arch maintainers, they can think about shifting
 back

for the confused ... you should still be adding these arches for stable 
requests and you should not be dropping their keywords
-mike


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.


[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS

2008-05-31 Thread Duncan
Mike Auty [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED],
excerpted below, on  Sat, 31 May 2008 20:32:42 +0100:

 I think you're looking for the wrong things.  I'm not an expert, but I
 think --as-needed means that if there are 20 libraries on your system
 that use libexpat.so.0 and 400 programs that use those 20 libraries,
 when libexpat is updated to libexpat.so.1, you only need to rebuild the
 20 libraries, not all 420 packages (as you would do otherwise).  I
 believe that's the main reason for using as-needed...

That has certainly been my experience.  I've had way less rebuilds to 
worry about since I added that to my LDFLAGS and rebuilt the system.  
revdep-rebuild -p, which I run regularly after major world upgrades, 
returns far fewer packages to rebuild, now.

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman

-- 
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list