Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:17:48 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 31 May 2008 03:03:42 +0200 Luca Barbato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Which is where the design flaw is -- as-needed incorrectly assumes that the only type of dependency between shared objects is a name dependency. This isn't true with C++ static initialisers. I don't see why should be different than abusing .init in any other language that let you do (ok, C, C++, asm mostly). In C++ it's not abuse. It's using the language as specified and designed. Would that be possible for you (or anyone else) to point or provide example of code that breaks after use of as-needed? -- Michal Kurgan http://dev.gentoo.org/~moloh -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
On Saturday 31 May 2008 00:16:31 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Ok, then everything in the tree is covered and we can move to having --as-needed as default. Is the next version of everything in the tree covered? Have you made sure that software isn't merely working by fluke? We interupt this thread with breaking news! A troll claims that future software packages may break! This reporter sure hopes that the developers in question actually tests packages before they commit. I, for one, welcome our new --as-needed Overlords. Is Gentoo really that desperate to turn everyone into a ricer? Everyones ride should be pimped. Thanks Roy -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
В Птн, 30/05/2008 в 20:28 -0700, Brian Harring пишет: Either way, basically it's coming down to if gentoo wants to follow the definition of 'academic' right, or 'pragmatic' right. Exempting ciaran, vote seems to be pragmatic. Well, although I've asked about problems with having --as-needed by default, I'd better go with academic. C++ is quite common language to ignore its design problems and in the end it's not hard to define LDFLAGS in make.conf. -- Peter. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
Mike Frysinger wrote: net-ftp/ncftp i can take this one wkr, Tobias signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote: I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these. net-misc/ntp It would be good if someone took this, because a ton of people use it. net-misc/dropbear sys-libs/uclibc I'd really like for someone to pick these up, since they're pretty critical for Gentoo on embedded systems. Thanks, Donnie -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
Mike Frysinger wrote: net-misc/vnc I already maintain that :P -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs
Donnie Berkholz wrote: On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote: I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these. net-misc/ntp might be a candidate for the sysadmin-herd. Cheers, Tiziano -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
On Saturday 31 May 2008 11:14:33 Luca Barbato wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Fact: the underlying issue is a libtool bug. Wrong, it isn't just that, --as-needed and libtool are unrelated. The issue that as-needed tries to solve is libraries being linked to binaries or other libraries that don't use said library directly. While it's true that libtool isn't the only cause, it does produce by far the most. Fact: as-needed does not fix this bug. It attempts to work around it. Wrong, --as-needed does exactly what is supposed to do, precise bookkeeping. It does do what it's supposed to do, unfortunately what it's supposed to do isn't the right thing in all cases. And it's not precise, it simply uses a different criterion that's better in some cases and worse in others. Fact: as-needed breaks standard-compliant code. Wrong, --as-needed breaks disputable code that happens to be standard-compliant by a specific read of the standard. The fact the specific code is something wrong from the security/style/maintainability point makes it a bonus. No-one's given any reason why it's disputable, worse style or less maintainable, other than it doesn't work with --as-needed, quite a circular argument. As for security... please show evidence, or I'll have to assume that that's just desperate FUD. Fact: fixing the libtool bug would give all the benefits purportedly given by using as-needed, without the drawbacks. Wrong, fixing libtool gives other benefits, so it's worth trying to fix it as well. The new autotools and proper usage of them makes life easier so it's worth improving on this side. I really don't see what you're trying to say there -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
Peter Volkov wrote: В Птн, 30/05/2008 в 20:28 -0700, Brian Harring пишет: Either way, basically it's coming down to if gentoo wants to follow the definition of 'academic' right, or 'pragmatic' right. Exempting ciaran, vote seems to be pragmatic. Well, although I've asked about problems with having --as-needed by default, I'd better go with academic. C++ is quite common language to ignore its design problems and in the end it's not hard to define LDFLAGS in make.conf. To clarify: - static initializers (as in __attribute__((constructor), so no, it isn't a C++ only feature) have nothing wrong with --as-needed. - ugly code that refers to undefined symbols that are resolved to ones from the main binary and written in the constructor is broken already in systems not allowing undefined refs. - you don't have guarantees about the order in witch the .init sections are parsed and constructor function are called, they can be called in parallel and you have no means to have a predictable behavior, all you know is that everything will be called right before main() or as the first thing in dlopen(). - doing such stuff is uncommon since it isn't the simplest thing to do, doesn't work in every place, you have to be particular perverse and convoluted even to think about this. - making such thing go away is good for security, maintainability and sanity. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo Council Member Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
A. Convince the portage developers to put it in make.conf/make.defaults. By the way, I'm strongly opposed to this: it should be, at best, in the profiles. For instance, as long as bug #192403 isn't fixed, as-needed will cause *a lot* of build failures on fbsd since gcc specs are broken and wont append the -lc for shared libraries and -lpthread when -pthread is used if I remember correctly. Regards, Alexis. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
On Sat, 31 May 2008 04:26:39 -0700 Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to jump in quickly; this thread is about adding --as-needed to the default CFLAGS. To get this accomplished you need to: A. Convince the portage developers to put it in make.conf/make.defaults. Wrong. We don't control make.conf (the user does) or make.defaults (profile maintainers do). We only control make.conf.example (which these days only serves as documentation) and make.globals (which isn't the right place for any arch-specific stuff, and CFLAGS are arch-specific by definition). Marius -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS (Was: RFC: Should preserve-libs be enabled by default?)
Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 31 May 2008 04:03:38 +0100: The correct fix is to make libtool only link to dependencies of dependencies when doing, for example, static linking. Debian has a half-working patch for this that I posted earlier in the thread. Thanks. That explanation (mostly snipped for brevity) was a great plain English explanation for those of us trying to follow along but not making any claim to be great programmers or at understanding the depths of libtool. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
080531 Mike Frysinger wrote: many of these are low maintence ... i'd forgotten i was even listed under them as i havent seen a bug report in a long time. some i added (well probably too many) on a lark, so if they do end up being crappy and no one cares, i guess that's why we have a tree cleaners group. ... net-misc/ntp This is rather basic, isn't it ? It keeps your clock accurate. Is there any alternative ? media-gfx/feh This is an excellent app seems usually bug-free. I hope someone keeps an eye on it. -- ,, SUPPORT ___//___, Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED] ELECTRIC /] [] [] [] [] []| Centre for Urban Community Studies TRANSIT`-O--O---' University of Toronto -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs
Mike Frysinger yazmış: no herd: dev-libs/libtomcrypt dev-libs/libtomfloat dev-libs/libtommath dev-libs/libtompoly dev-libs/tomsfastmath I'll take these if noone else wants them. I use them from time to time for my studies. -- Regards, Ali Polatel pgpzikkFYJLHN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
On Sat, 31 May 2008 01:09:33 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: net-ftp/ncftp Yoink! Kind regards, JeR -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
net-misc/ntp This is rather basic, isn't it ? It keeps your clock accurate. Is there any alternative ? net-misc/openntpd - by the OpenBSD folks... http://openntpd.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenNTPD regards Thilo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] Re: packages up for grabs
Thilo Bangert yazmış: net-misc/ntp This is rather basic, isn't it ? It keeps your clock accurate. Is there any alternative ? net-misc/openntpd - by the OpenBSD folks... http://openntpd.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenNTPD Or net-misc/clockspeed :-) regards Thilo -- Regards, Ali Polatel pgpTI21xw09yX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
On Saturday 31 May 2008, Donnie Berkholz wrote: On 01:09 Sat 31 May , Mike Frysinger wrote: I'd like to advocate for interested people to pick up a few of these. i think some of the herds are capable without a specific maintainer ... in this case, base-system and embedded wrt these three packages -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] profile shift for arm/s390/sh from stable to dev
ive made this shift in profiles.desc: sed -ir '/^(arm|s390|sh)/s:stable:dev:' profiles.desc if/when we get dedicated arch maintainers, they can think about shifting back -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
Le samedi 31 mai 2008 à 13:31 -0400, ben tucker a écrit : Hi Mike, I am a good candidate for taking over maintenance of these, as my day job is a security developer for the world's largest software delivery infrastructure company for remote applications :-). net-libs/libvncserver net-misc/vnc I wouldn't mind taking app-editors/hexcurse over as well. What is the procedure be for me to take over maintenance of these three packages? Option 1: become a gentoo developer Option 2: find a gentoo developer willing to be your proxy -- Gilles Dartiguelongue [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: [gentoo-dev] packages up for grabs
Hi! On Sat, 31 May 2008, Philip Webb wrote: 080531 Mike Frysinger wrote: many of these are low maintence ... i'd forgotten i was even listed under them as i havent seen a bug report in a long time. some i added (well probably too many) on a lark, so if they do end up being crappy and no one cares, i guess that's why we have a tree cleaners group. ... net-misc/ntp This is rather basic, isn't it ? It keeps your clock accurate. Is there any alternative ? Yes, net-misc/openntpd and net-misc/chrony are alternatives. Regards, Tobias -- fs_dprintk (FS_DEBUG_INIT, Ha! Initialized OK!\n); linux-2.6.6/drivers/atm/firestream.c -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS
[Answering to some random message in this long thread.] On Sat, 31 May 2008, Brian Harring wrote: So... folks have pointed out a benefit to using --as-needed. The benefit itself doesn't seem particularly in dispute, analyze the fallout from it- if the best that is offered is the spec says otherwise, screw the spec frankly- a .01% breakage w/ 99.99% pkgs getting a positive gain is a strong argument for doing exemptions where needed. Speaking about statistics: Either I have missed it, or so far nobody has presented any solid numbers showing what the benefit of --as-needed in terms of memory usage or program startup time is. Could someone please show this comparison for some common programs? I've just done this for Emacs (22.2-r2), virtual set size directly after startup is 25280 and 25276 kB, for Emacs built without and with --as-needed, respectively (resident set size is 14412 and 14396 kB). I don't see any difference in startup time. But maybe Emacs is an uncommon application, or I am looking for the wrong things? Could one of the experts please shed some light on this? Ulrich -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ulrich Mueller wrote: | But maybe Emacs is an uncommon application, or I am looking for the | wrong things? Could one of the experts please shed some light on this? I think you're looking for the wrong things. I'm not an expert, but I think --as-needed means that if there are 20 libraries on your system that use libexpat.so.0 and 400 programs that use those 20 libraries, when libexpat is updated to libexpat.so.1, you only need to rebuild the 20 libraries, not all 420 packages (as you would do otherwise). I believe that's the main reason for using as-needed... Mike 5:) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkhBp9oACgkQu7rWomwgFXr8JQCfYFDwcebduPVaY3yqUIEfVOxp G80AoKV6SsAewxyyfv+fsiwbc6M1BHsc =12e5 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] profile shift for arm/s390/sh from stable to dev
On Saturday 31 May 2008, Mike Frysinger wrote: ive made this shift in profiles.desc: sed -ir '/^(arm|s390|sh)/s:stable:dev:' profiles.desc if/when we get dedicated arch maintainers, they can think about shifting back for the confused ... you should still be adding these arches for stable requests and you should not be dropping their keywords -mike signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
[gentoo-dev] Re: RFC: --as-needed to default LDFLAGS
Mike Auty [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Sat, 31 May 2008 20:32:42 +0100: I think you're looking for the wrong things. I'm not an expert, but I think --as-needed means that if there are 20 libraries on your system that use libexpat.so.0 and 400 programs that use those 20 libraries, when libexpat is updated to libexpat.so.1, you only need to rebuild the 20 libraries, not all 420 packages (as you would do otherwise). I believe that's the main reason for using as-needed... That has certainly been my experience. I've had way less rebuilds to worry about since I added that to my LDFLAGS and rebuilt the system. revdep-rebuild -p, which I run regularly after major world upgrades, returns far fewer packages to rebuild, now. -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master. Richard Stallman -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list