[gentoo-dev] (nessun oggetto)

2009-05-05 Thread Antonio Quartulli



-- 
Antonio Quartulli



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Richard Freeman

Markos Chandras wrote:
Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in order to 
survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some people consider 
as anarchy




As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are 
greatly exaggerated.  I certainly agree that we need standards, but as 
far as I can tell those exist.


I'm not exactly sure what the actual problem is.  What resolvable issue 
is directly impacting the Gentoo community, and how would things 
actually be better if that issue didn't exist?  What is the itch that 
needs scratching?


I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left 
and right.  For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is 
down and continues to trend down.  Sure, manpower is limited, but the 
solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to work harder 
or quit (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help.  Arch 
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs 
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well 
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.


Is the issue anarchy, or the bazaar model in general?  You can't always 
have it both ways...




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:
 Markos Chandras wrote:
  Even a volunteer-driven organization needs some standard rules in
  order to survive. From time to time this volunteer moto is what some
  people consider as anarchy

 As far as survival goes - I think the rumors of Gentoo's death are
 greatly exaggerated.  I certainly agree that we need standards, but as
 far as I can tell those exist.

 I don't see developers putting QA violations into the portage tree left
 and right.  For the most part I'd say the level of abuse in bugzilla is
 down and continues to trend down.  Sure, manpower is limited, but the
 solution to that isn't to tell the people who are here to work harder
 or quit (which means quit) but instead to recruit more help. 
When,how,and who is going to write down a list of possible recruitment 
hunting actions? There is too much chit-chatting around but nobody ( 
including me of course) is daring to propose actual solutions and proposals
 Arch
 teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
 on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
 supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.
Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Tobias Klausmann
Hi! 

On Tue, 05 May 2009, Markos Chandras wrote:
 Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
 arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

If I keel over and armin76 is stuck in work/'versity, the alpha
dev count is 0. Not exactly good, but we manage. I'm in the
process of recruiting an archtester and he may become a dev one
day.

That said, more feedback from /users/ regarding alpha would be
appreciated, but I doubt -dev@ is the best place to look for it
;)


Regards,
Tobias
(aka Blackb|rd on IRC)

-- 
panic(smp_callin() a\n);
linux-2.6.6/arch/parisc/kernel/smp.c



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Thomas Anderson
On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:
 On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:
  Arch
  teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
  on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
  supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.
 Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major 
 arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas
-- 
-
Thomas Anderson
Gentoo Developer
/
Areas of responsibility:
AMD64, Secretary to the Gentoo Council
-


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Sergio D . Rodríguez Inclan
Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what is
needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.

-- 
Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan
-
http://srinclan.wordpress.com
Linux User #446728 -- http://counter.li.org/
--


[gentoo-dev] Re: Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Duncan
Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan srinc...@gmail.com posted
f01ff58b0905050926o74ddf373l85a1c49a6a32...@mail.gmail.com, excerpted
below, on  Tue, 05 May 2009 12:26:23 -0400:

 Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see
 what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.

Actually, the various project leads do tend to do this once or twice a 
year, with most projects following the leader after someone starts it, 
posting status to the dev list, at least.  It /is/ about time for another 
round I think, but I hope whoever decides to start it starts it as a new 
thread, not attached to this one.

So project leads?  Who wants to be first? =:^)

-- 
Duncan - List replies preferred.   No HTML msgs.
Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master.  Richard Stallman




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
 Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what
 is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
Publish where? Blogs? mailing list? Forums? we dont have a centralized way to 
inform users about such issues so the publishing should be done in multiple 
places

*planet
*universe
*forum
*mailing list
*...

It is not that handy, is it?

Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
visit that page to read gentoo news :\
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Robert Bridge

Markos Chandras wrote:
Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
visit that page to read gentoo news :\


I can safely say that some never do...

RobbieAB



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:

Arch
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.

Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas

/me is listing all the reported issues

Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the 
project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that 
Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new 
developers right now


This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how 
do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and 
updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 
15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ).


If we really (?) want  to run a recruitment campaign, our web presence but 
be quite active and responsible.


Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with? 
If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Mounir Lamouri
Markos Chandras wrote:
 On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
   
 Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see what
 is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
 
 [snip]

 Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users ever 
 visit that page to read gentoo news :\
   
There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
about it.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

Mounir



Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:52:34 George Prowse wrote:

 Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with?
 If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?

I assume that this recruitment process does not address to every single gentoo 
user but to those who actually have technical knowledge and time to spare for 
their beloved distro :P. We have plenty of them on forums.gentoo.org ( and not 
only )
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 20:03:58 Mounir Lamouri wrote:
 Markos Chandras wrote:
  On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:23 Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan wrote:
  Could be a good idea publish a status of each Gentoo project and see
  what is needed, so the users/devs can offer some help.
 
  [snip]
 
  Some one could say Post it on gentoo.org homepage. I wonder if users
  ever visit that page to read gentoo news :\

 There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
 about it.

 [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

 Mounir
Indeed there is. But I think that neither users nor developers are really 
using it
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sunrise/Sound]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Thomas Sachau
George Prowse schrieb:
 Thomas Sachau wrote:
 For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
 ebuilds, there is already an option:

 Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
 documentation from the topic. The
 Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
 everyone willing to learn and
 contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
 create ebuilds, how to improve them
 and how to maintain them.
 As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
 maintained, that dont get a
 developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
 contributors learn the ebuild
 development work themselves.

 And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
 is a good chance that you may
 level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
 was my way to become a full
 Gentoo developer. ;-)

 So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
 (probably other projects also
 have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
 may be the communication
 between potential new developers and the current developer base and
 our options to become a new
 developer.

 
 I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
 you will always be understaffed.
 
 Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
 communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
 magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
 talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
 the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
 
 If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
 with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
 people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
 influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
 be here for years to come.
 
 

Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So 
if anyone is willing
to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and 
time myself.

The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people 
to the sunrise project
and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.

-- 
Thomas Sachau

Gentoo Linux Developer



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Thomas Sachau wrote:

George Prowse schrieb:

Thomas Sachau wrote:

For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
ebuilds, there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
documentation from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
everyone willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
create ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
maintained, that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
is a good chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
was my way to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
(probably other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
may be the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and
our options to become a new
developer.


I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
be here for years to come.




Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So 
if anyone is willing
to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and 
time myself.

The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people 
to the sunrise project
and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.

I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
red tape.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
 If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
 with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to
 walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
 then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
 will hopefully be here for years to come.

That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
developers.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to

walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
will hopefully be here for years to come.


That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
developers.

And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on now, 
you'll have to do better than that.


In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't have 
the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Tue, 05 May 2009 19:11:02 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
  That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
  recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities.
  With lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers
  already have ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by
  people who were only recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs
  better developers, not more developers.
  
 And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on
 now, you'll have to do better than that.

One of the necessary abilities is to be able to get yourself recruited
with the current process. Anyone who can't put up with the hassle of
that isn't going to be able to put up with all the bureaucracy, delays
and nonsense necessary to get anything done within Gentoo.

 In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't
 have the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.

A conservative estimate would be that 90% of the people who decide to
be developers because of such an initiative would be unsuitable.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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[gentoo-dev] An Introduction to Gentoo Prefix

2009-05-05 Thread Fabian Groffen
While some of you may have heard of it, we -- the Prefix team -- have
the impression that for most developers the Gentoo Prefix project is in
general an unknown, hidden and vague project, that primarily generates a
lot of commits.  Therefore, we have decided to try and explain what
Gentoo Prefix is, and why we Prefix devs are so passionately about it.

Let us start by pointing out that Gentoo Prefix is all but a new
project.  While the archeological signs of the project only go back to
2006[1], the project has existed before that in the minds of people no
longer with us any more.

The Gentoo Prefix project aims to bring the Gentoo Portage Tree to
non-Gentoo and/or non-Linux systems, through the following two
characteristics:
  1) a free to choose target directory offset (prefix), in which
 packages are installed, and
  2) the ability to install and operate without adminstrative privileges

To understand why these two characteristics were chosen, it is best to
get into the mindset of many Gentoo Prefix users (and devs).  There are
plenty of reasons, of which a few described in [2].  In short, the users
are looking for convenience on their platform of choice, or platform
they are doomed to use.

Some people just have to work with Windows.  Others just like Mac OS X
over any GNOME or KDE.  Some work with Solaris, others with AIX, or even
their Atari.  All of these systems have their merits and demerits.
(Gentoo) Linux users are used to a very rich and convenient userland
consisting of many GNU tools, such as sed, awk, grep, tar, etc., but
also development tools such as compilers, autotools, etc.  While these
tools are absent, simply outdated or not as flexible as on Gentoo, users
of said systems are in need of the flexible tool suite as delivered by
Gentoo.  An obvious solution is to get Portage running and to install
the tools on the system in use.  However, due to requirements,
privileges, or an insane love relation, the original system may not be
harmed by replacing or modifying existing software.  Yes, in some cases,
such modifications are even impossible by lack of privileges: no root
access!

In a really compact form, we can say that for Gentoo Prefix users:
  - an offset installation is necessary not to break the host OS software
  - sometimes root privileges are unavailable
  - unprivileged installations add an extra level of protection/safety
  - `rm -Rf prefix-offset-location` removes the entire Prefix and all
traces of it

Gentoo Prefix delivers unprivileged offset installations, which we call
a prefix.  The prefix here is the offset used for the entire
installation, such as /home/sally/gentoo.  A Gentoo Prefix system is
bootstrapped into such prefix, by following a number of instructions,
e.g.[3].

Using this prefix, the file system layout chosen by Prefix Portage is
exactly the same as for a normal Gentoo Linux system, but shifted into
the prefix.  This would for instance result in
/home/sally/gentoo/usr/bin for the previously mentioned example.  In
principle, it serves no use to have programs installed in bin, usr/bin,
sbin, usr/sbin, etc. under the prefix, and it would make more sense if
they would be installed all in one place.  However, following the Gentoo
Linux layout enables direct backwards compatability when the chosen
prefix is the empty string, and requires no extra patching or changes.

With this in mind, we would like to stress that it is not the desire of
the current Gentoo Prefix project to go beyond the ability to install in
an unprivileged install-time fixed offset.  We consider the current
approach as a milestone that delivers offset installations.  Pilots
within our own team have shown that on top of this milestone, further
steps can be made, such as variable offset locations and close
cooperation with e.g. a Gentoo Linux host system.  However, we do not
consider these works in progress as part of the *current* Gentoo Prefix
project.

Unfortunately, support for installing packages into a prefix, does not
come for free.  Most ebuilds need small changes, some ebuilds need
extensive patching to get programs to install and run correctly with
regard to the (offset) prefix.  To get this all running, we set up our
own tree, which contains all our converted ebuilds, extra profiles and
modified eclasses[4].  At some point our tree became pretty big[1], and
it turned out our enthusiasm (and that of our users) brought
overlays.g.o down to its knees.  At that point, our hobby got way out of
hand, and to resolve the issue we had to switch to rsync, resulting in
our own generated tree with metadata.  As side-effect this greatly sped
up the user experience[5], contributing to getting our hobby even more
out of hand.  We, as Prefix team, feel this puts our project in a bit
weird position, where we resemble closely to an in-house fork of the
Gentoo project itself.

It is our desire and intention to move away from this situation, which
not only consumes an awful lot of resources for 

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Roy Bamford
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Hash: SHA1

On 2009.05.05 18:37, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
  If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned 
 correctly
[snip]
 
 That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
 recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities.
 With
 lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already
 have
 ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were
 only
 recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not 
 more
 developers.
 
 -- 
 Ciaran McCreesh
 

Ciaran,

- From your post, it appears that standards were lowered during the 
recruitment drive you reference. If thats true, its a lesson for next 
time. That may well reduce the uptake rate compared to last time too 
but as you infer, new developers need the right skill set.

At best, the publicity George suggests would raise awareness, which is 
the first step to getting more help of the right sort.

- -- 
Regards,

Roy Bamford
(NeddySeagoon) a member of
gentoo-ops
forum-mods
treecleaners
trustees
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 20:37:24 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100

 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
  If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
  with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to
  walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
  then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
  will hopefully be here for years to come.

 That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
 recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
 lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
 ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
 recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
 developers.
We surely need more developers. Otherwise we ll end up maintaining 100x500 
each one.  Just look at the numbers ( total packages/total ACTIVE developers 
). So first we need to attract more people.  Evaluation and recruitment comes 
next
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Tue, 5 May 2009 21:19:49 +0300
Markos Chandras hwoar...@gentoo.org wrote:
 We surely need more developers. Otherwise we ll end up maintaining
 100x500 each one.  Just look at the numbers ( total packages/total
 ACTIVE developers ). So first we need to attract more people.
 Evaluation and recruitment comes next

I have a better way of improving those numbers: remove two thirds of the
packages from the main tree.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
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On Tue, 05 May 2009 19:19:00 +0100
Roy Bamford neddyseag...@gentoo.org wrote:
 - From your post, it appears that standards were lowered during the 
 recruitment drive you reference.

Not quite.

At the time, there weren't really any particular standards during
recruitment. The system relied upon recruitment mostly being done or
supervised by a smaller group of people who did it a lot and were
fairly good judges of suitability. The system broke when someone who
didn't do much recruiting pulled in a bunch of new people for obscure
side projects that sounded cool without verifying that some of those
people, say, knew what 'grep' was.

The ebuild-related quiz questions come from my attempt at the time to
reduce the damage until a proper solution could be implemented, which
never happened because devrel decided to make other things a priority.
And even then, the quiz rapidly became unsuccessful because recruiters
would give people lots of attempts and lots of help to answer the
questions, and would let people retake the quiz as many times as they
liked -- the questions were designed to be instantly answerable, not
research questions.

At the very least, before attempting any mass recruitment, the quiz
needs to be lengthened, brought up to date and split into answer these
on the spot on IRC without having seen the question before and
research allowed questions, and recruiters have to be prepared to
fail most applicants.

- -- 
Ciaran McCreesh
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Sebastián Ramírez Magrí
El mar, 05-05-2009 a las 18:28 +0100, George Prowse escribió:
 Thomas Sachau wrote:
  George Prowse schrieb:
  Thomas Sachau wrote:
  For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
  ebuilds, there is already an option:
 
  Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
  documentation from the topic. The
  Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
  everyone willing to learn and
  contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
  create ebuilds, how to improve them
  and how to maintain them.
  As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
  maintained, that dont get a
  developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
  contributors learn the ebuild
  development work themselves.
 
  And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
  is a good chance that you may
  level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
  was my way to become a full
  Gentoo developer. ;-)
 
  So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
  (probably other projects also
  have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
  may be the communication
  between potential new developers and the current developer base and
  our options to become a new
  developer.
 
  I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
  you will always be understaffed.
 
  Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
  communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
  magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
  talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
  the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!
 
  If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
  with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
  people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
  influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
  be here for years to come.
 
 
  
  Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. 
  So if anyone is willing
  to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work 
  and time myself.
  
  The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing 
  people to the sunrise project
  and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.
  
 I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
 red tape.
 

I feel it's necessary to clear that it's not mandatory to be a full time
developer to help improve Gentoo. Many users want to help but they don't
feel ready for such a compromise. Then there is Sunrise, and the
overlays from the herds, where the prospective users can learn first and
take the following step when they feel they're ready. I think there are
at least 2 recent new developers who made it this way.

There are several (much?) understaffed projects in Gentoo, the
developers who are responsible of this areas could take some time to
write a guide for users on how to help, with steps to commit patches to
the overlays, wishes and needs... and then publish it in the project web
page.

Also, there could be a page similar to the 'staffing-needs' one, but
listing links to the 'Help Us' pages of the projects.

Just my 2c...

And sorry for any spell/grammar error...




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Sergio D . Rodríguez Inclan

 There is already such a place [1] but I think not so much people knows
 about it.

 [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

 Mounir


None of the problems mentioned here are present on that page, the
information that could be useful is: how many developers are active, which
are the short/long term objectives of the project, what are the actual
problems/needs, news, etc. Each project could have this information on it's
project page but it need to be easily accessed by the users and constantly
updated, I'm sure there are people who doesn't have developer blood but can
do that kind of informational work.

-- 
Sergio D. Rodríguez Inclan
-
http://srinclan.wordpress.com
Linux User #446728 -- http://counter.li.org/
--


Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread AllenJB

George Prowse wrote:

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp


Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you 
will be missed.


I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things 
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has 
been improving in the past 12 months.


About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago 
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in 
much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can 
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a 
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything 
about Gentoo wanting people.


If you book them, they will come.

G



In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. I've said it before in 
previous posts to the Gentoo -devel and -project lists, as well as my 
blog posts[0]: I think Gentoo needs to improve the organisation of the 
projects. I know it takes developer time to update project pages and do 
things like maintaining the developers wanted pages, but I think that 
Gentoo would see this returned in a higher number of competent 
developers. One of the biggest problems I have as someone considering 
becoming a developer is following what's going on and working out where 
I could make contributions that are both something I would enjoy doing 
and would be useful for current milestones (eg. autobuilds handbooks or 
improving / stabilizing KDE4) that are being worked on.


[0] http://allenjb.me.uk/category/linux/gentoo


On a related note, I thought the recent email from the Prefix project to 
the -devel list was excellent - it's exactly the sort of thing I would 
hope to find on a projects page on gentoo.org. It contains a detailed 
explanation of the project, its purpose, current state and aims and 
includes a roadmap so that (potential) contributors can easily see where 
they can help out in a way that will be considered useful by the 
development team.



I would also like to see some less secrecy for things that are going on. 
For example, I know that the newsletter team are currently working on a 
new setup for the newsletter. While I somewhat understand some of the 
reasons that the developers involved have chosen to not give out 
information on this project, I question the overall value in keeping 
such projects secret in this manner. A project page with the current 
progress and a roadmap of the project on would not only keep everyone 
informed, but might encourage contributions (in the form of solving any 
specific problems the developers are having, for example, or in the case 
of the newsletter, preparing content to contribute).


I've also spoken before on the bus factor, which I believe comes into 
play here. As far as I know only one or two developers are working on 
the project and if they were to disappear for a length of time for any 
reason, (virtually) all current knowledge of the project, its progress 
and its code / setup would be lost.



This leads me on to another issue I have with Gentoo development, which 
I believe is related, and that is the organisation of the source code 
repositories. As far as I can see there appears to be no formal 
organisational scheme to this at all, which can make it really hard to 
find things. Ideally, I would like to see a scheme that generally goes 
something like: /project/subproject/task. So, for example, you could 
find all the docs under /documentation and all the newsletter content 
under /pr/newsletter. (On a sidenote, the SVN repos seem a little better 
on this than the CVS repos layout, but it's still not as clear as I 
think it could be)


As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think 
there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis 
that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if 
they can find what they want to work on easily).



AllenJB



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread Petteri Räty
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 
 At the very least, before attempting any mass recruitment, the quiz
 needs to be lengthened, brought up to date and split into answer these
 on the spot on IRC without having seen the question before and
 research allowed questions, and recruiters have to be prepared to
 fail most applicants.


We have actually been using an extra question battery for IRC for many
years already. The quizzes are actively maintained by me so if you have
suggestions about what needs improving please do tell and we can update
the quizzes as needed. Currently we really don't need to fail that many
people as those who end up at that point in the process almost always
have good enough skills as they have contributed via overlays for quite
a while. I would rather keep it like the current process where the bad
people don't get mentored to the finish.

Regards,
Petteri



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread Markos Chandras
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 23:45:14 AllenJB wrote:
 George Prowse wrote:
  Peter Faraday Weller wrote:
  Hi
 
  Thanks,
  welp
 
  Sad to hear it mate.
 
  As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
  will be missed.
 
  I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
  because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
  been improving in the past 12 months.
 
  About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
  might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
  much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
  come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
  vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
  about Gentoo wanting people.
 
  If you book them, they will come.
 
  G

 In my opinion, such a drive wouldn't work. 
[..]
 As always, I realize this would take time to change, but I (again) think
 there's a good chance that it would improve contributions (on the basis
 that potential contributors are more likely to actually contribute if
 they can find what they want to work on easily).


 AllenJB
I am sure there are some developers which can offer a great amount of time to 
help/revibe slacking or dead projects ( e.g. userrel, newsletters etc ). The 
thing is that leadership on several projects is inactive hence users or devs 
who are willing to help are getting demotivated. It would be really nice each 
individual project to perform a clean up like:

1) have an internal discussion about its goals and future
2) Remove dead members and elect a new leader if necessary
3) Update the page
4) Publish its status
5) Assist for help is necessary

Looking 'active' is very important to attract new people to project. 

Is this so hard? 
-- 
Markos Chandras (hwoarang)
Gentoo Linux Developer [KDE/Qt/Sound/Sunrise]
Web: http://hwoarang.silverarrow.org


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[gentoo-portage-dev] files in ${FILESDIR}

2009-05-05 Thread Toha
What about this idea: list all files in ${FILESDIR} (patches, init scripts), 
related to ebuild in this ebuild like:

FLS=( some-init-script ${PN}-patch1.patch ${PN}-${PV}-patch2.patch ... 
${PN}-patchN.patch )

then using this files by addressing his index in ${FLS} array

applying patches with command: epatch 1 ( or in batch mode: epatch 1 2 3 )
and init scripts like: doinitd 0
etc.

reason: easy automated way to moving ebuilds with all required files betwen 
repositories/overlays



Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] files in ${FILESDIR}

2009-05-05 Thread Mike Frysinger
On Tuesday 05 May 2009 02:26:21 Toha wrote:
 What about this idea: list all files in ${FILESDIR} (patches, init
 scripts), related to ebuild in this ebuild like:

 FLS=( some-init-script ${PN}-patch1.patch ${PN}-${PV}-patch2.patch
 ... ${PN}-patchN.patch )

 then using this files by addressing his index in ${FLS} array

 applying patches with command: epatch 1 ( or in batch mode: epatch 1 2 3 )
 and init scripts like: doinitd 0
 etc.

 reason: easy automated way to moving ebuilds with all required files betwen
 repositories/overlays

downsides: updating of array causes ugly cascading of changes throughout the 
entire ebuild instead of one or two lines.  maintaining the info indirectly 
with numbers makes reading ebuilds harder to understand and harder to maintain 
(adding/dropping files).

such changes should be proposed on the gentoo-dev mailing list anyways ... 
you'll get a lot more feedback as to why this is more con than pro.
-mike


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Re: [gentoo-portage-dev] Symlinks with distutils

2009-05-05 Thread Douglas Anderson


On May 5, 2009, at 10:37 PM, Michael A. Smith mich...@smith-li.com  
wrote:



In theory, doing symlinks with distutils isn't a big deal, but
distutils.core.setup doesn't have the capability built in.  
(distutils.file_util
does, but it's not clear how to trigger that intuitively within  
setup().) So
for the changes to gentoolkit for 0.3, I vote we keep the ebuild  
dosyms, and
leave distutils out of the business of symlinks, to be revisited at  
a later

date. Agree?

Best wishes,
Michael (a.k.a. kojiro)



Sounds good to me.
-Doug