Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Mailing list moderation and community openness
On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 6:21 AM, Rich Freeman wrote: > On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:33 AM, Martin Vaeth wrote: >> Rich Freeman wrote: >>> >>> Fred is a community member. Fred consistently harasses and trolls new >>> contributors in private. >> >> Sure, it's a problem. But not a problem which can be solved by >> closing the mailing list, in no step of the issue. >> >> First of all, this happens in private, so you cannot prevent it >> by closing a mailing list. > > Certainly. Closing lists won't stop the private abuse, nor is it intended to. > > What it would stop is this particular thread talking endlessly about it. > >> >>> No mention is made of why Fred as booted out, because everything >>> happened in private. >> >> That's the mistake which is made in this example. Be open in the >> decisions. If you cannot be open in order to protect other people's >> privacy, be open at least by saying exactly this. > > In the example I can think of this was done, and yet people still > endlessly argued about it, because simply stating that you can't be > open about something won't satisfy people who want there to be > openness. > As I have tried to explain, the reasons you have given are not consistent and even if they were there is no reason to believe they are based on a sound interpretation of the law. You simply ignored those comments, which tells everyone else you do not care whether you are making valid decisions. That is why these discussions have continued. >> Closing a mailing list >> will not close such a debate; it will then just happen elsewhere. > > And that is the goal. > >> Anyway, such a debate does not belong to dev-ml. The correct solution >> is to continue to point people to have this debate on the appropriate place, >> not on the mainly technically oriented dev-ml. > > Could you take this debate to the appropriate place then? > > >> Making the posters silent >> by blacklisting even more is contra-productive and will give the >> impression that they are actually right. > > If the goal is to make them silent on the closed list it is completely > productive. > > Nothing can prevent people from getting the impression that there is > some kind of cover-up. Certainly the last time this sort of thing > happened having hundreds of emails posted on the topic on the lists > didn't do anything to convince the few posters that the right thing > was done. > > Now, I do like something that Debian did in this situation which was > to give the person who was booted the option to have the reasoning > disclosed or not. If they refuse and people question why they were > booted, you can simply state that all people who are booted are given > the option to have the reasons disclosed, and the person leaving made > the choice not to have this done. IMO something like this would tend > to reduce the legal liabilities. > >> >>> Ultimately the leaders just want Fred gone so that new contributors >>> aren't getting driven away. They can't explain that because then they >>> create potential civil liability for the project. >> >> Why not? Is it against a law to exclude somebody who is hurting a >> project? > > Not at all. Booting somebody from an organization like Gentoo creates > no liability, unless it was based on discrimination/etc. > > The liability comes from saying negative things about somebody. > > Kicking out Fred is fine. Stating publicly that Fred was kicked out > for sexual harassment would allow Fred to sue, and then you have to > pay to prove that he was sexually harassing somebody. > Fred can sue even if you've done nothing. You would still be well advised to hire representation in that case to prevent Fred from winning by default. Agitating people by withholding comments on problematic behavior doesn't remove that possibility. As long as the statements were true only a token effort (if even that) needs to be made to dismiss the suit. In very rare cases, mostly where something close to malicious intent behind the release of the information can be shown, damages will be awarded. But seeing as there is a valid reason (effective project governance) for releasing that information I see no way that would be upheld. >> >>> The problem is that >>> the debate goes on for over a year despite intervening elections and >>> now this becomes the issue that is driving new contributors away. >>> What solution would you propose for this problem? >> >> How would closing the mailing list solve the problem? It will give >> the impression that you want to close the debate by taking away the >> medium where people can argue. And the impression is correct, because >> this actually *is* the intention if you are honest. > > Certainly this is the intention, at least for my part. There is no > benefit in arguing about this for more than a year, especially if > those who made the decisions get re-elected to their posts. > >> Of course, it will not close said debate. The debate will just happen >> on another channel. (Which
[gentoo-dev] Automated Package Removal and Addition Tracker, for the week ending 2018-06-10 23:59 UTC
The attached list notes all of the packages that were added or removed from the tree, for the week ending 2018-06-10 23:59 UTC. Removals: dev-libs/sni-qt 20180602-11:33 asturm b598cb24fa0 dev-python/django-evolution 20180608-13:53 mgorny 7a476c2d747 dev-python/iconvcodec 20180608-13:54 mgorny 81c89387280 dev-python/kiwi 20180608-13:53 mgorny 192f7cd8265 dev-python/pyside-tools 20180602-11:43 asturm 87d93170e04 dev-python/simpleparse 20180608-13:51 mgorny 8d3258bf0d8 dev-python/tdaemon 20180608-13:52 mgorny deb044fe6c5 dev-util/valkyrie 20180602-11:30 asturm bb18cb8cc3b media-gfx/ipe 20180602-11:28 asturm c1eef118900 media-gfx/structure-synth 20180602-11:32 asturm efc89d1aa96 media-libs/libprojectm-qt 20180602-11:41 asturm f1b13f00820 media-sound/projectm-jack 20180602-11:38 asturm 639946c282a media-sound/projectm-pulseaudio 20180602-11:39 asturm 6301b9c36e2 net-dns/dnssec-lookup 20180602-12:00 asturm 8c097ef1099 net-dns/dnssec-nodes20180602-12:00 asturm 8c097ef1099 net-dns/dnssec-system-tray 20180602-12:00 asturm 8c097ef1099 Additions: app-backup/mkstage4 20180512-00:39 mgorny c0f8c8980b2 app-emulation/cri-o 20180604-05:04 zmedico 43081b4c1a5 app-vim/vim-commentary 20180608-10:17 monsieurp4c205617015 dev-haskell/megaparsec 20180608-14:59 mrueg49de501a901 dev-haskell/parser-combinators 20180608-14:56 mrueg4d2d99cc637 dev-haskell/pgp-wordlist20180608-13:48 mruega06f82f711e dev-haskell/prettyprinter 20180608-14:22 mruegc9c3e379d44 dev-libs/ell20180604-09:16 polynomial-c 1309bc3b222 dev-python/aiohttp-jinja2 20180609-02:58 zmedico 933ffc3391d dev-python/namespace-jaraco 20180606-20:39 mgorny 9d57c8db703 dev-python/pyotp20180518-22:12 mgorny 0478e1a65c7 dev-python/python-ntpdshm 20180604-22:37 robbat2 c3e39c3e621 dev-python/thrift 20180608-09:13 grobian 940d7801261 dev-ruby/ed2551920180608-05:30 graaff 44f87aef074 dev-util/bite 20180604-23:50 radhermitb769b2b6021 dev-util/bitrise20180515-01:36 mgorny 1c69ae5ecbf media-libs/aribb24 20180516-19:01 mgorny 6a5f4dda77e sci-chemistry/modeller 20180608-13:01 alexxy 5ab7460b5a2 www-plugins/passff-host 20180514-04:12 mgorny 180c91de42c -- Robin Hugh Johnson Gentoo Linux Developer E-Mail : robb...@gentoo.org GnuPG FP : 11AC BA4F 4778 E3F6 E4ED F38E B27B 944E 3488 4E85 Removed Packages: net-dns/dnssec-lookup,removed,asturm,20180602-12:00,8c097ef1099 net-dns/dnssec-nodes,removed,asturm,20180602-12:00,8c097ef1099 net-dns/dnssec-system-tray,removed,asturm,20180602-12:00,8c097ef1099 dev-python/pyside-tools,removed,asturm,20180602-11:43,87d93170e04 media-libs/libprojectm-qt,removed,asturm,20180602-11:41,f1b13f00820 media-sound/projectm-pulseaudio,removed,asturm,20180602-11:39,6301b9c36e2 media-sound/projectm-jack,removed,asturm,20180602-11:38,639946c282a dev-libs/sni-qt,removed,asturm,20180602-11:33,b598cb24fa0 media-gfx/structure-synth,removed,asturm,20180602-11:32,efc89d1aa96 dev-util/valkyrie,removed,asturm,20180602-11:30,bb18cb8cc3b media-gfx/ipe,removed,asturm,20180602-11:28,c1eef118900 dev-python/iconvcodec,removed,mgorny,20180608-13:54,81c89387280 dev-python/django-evolution,removed,mgorny,20180608-13:53,7a476c2d747 dev-python/kiwi,removed,mgorny,20180608-13:53,192f7cd8265 dev-python/tdaemon,removed,mgorny,20180608-13:52,deb044fe6c5 dev-python/simpleparse,removed,mgorny,20180608-13:51,8d3258bf0d8 Added Packages: dev-util/bitrise,added,mgorny,20180515-01:36,1c69ae5ecbf media-libs/aribb24,added,mgorny,20180516-19:01,6a5f4dda77e app-backup/mkstage4,added,mgorny,20180512-00:39,c0f8c8980b2 dev-python/aiohttp-jinja2,added,zmedico,20180609-02:58,933ffc3391d dev-haskell/megaparsec,added,mrueg,20180608-14:59,49de501a901 dev-haskell/parser-combinators,added,mrueg,20180608-14:56,4d2d99cc637 dev-haskell/prettyprinter,added,mrueg,20180608-14:22,c9c3e379d44 dev-haskell/pgp-wordlist,added,mrueg,20180608-13:48,a06f82f711e sci-chemistry/modeller,added,alexxy,20180608-13:01,5ab7460b5a2 dev-python/namespace-jaraco,added,mgorny,20180606-20:39,9d57c8db703 app-vim/vim-commentary,added,monsieurp,20180608-10:17,4c205617015 dev-python/thrift,added,grobian,20180608-09:13,940d7801261 dev-ruby/ed25519,added,graaff,20180608-05:30,44f87aef074 www-plugins/passff-host,added,mgorny,20180514-04:12,180c91de42c dev-python/pyotp,added,mgorny,20180518-22:12,0478e1a65c7 dev-util/bite,added,radhermit,20180604-23:50,b769b2b6021 dev-python/python-ntpdshm,added,robbat2,20180604-22:37,c3e39c3e621
[gentoo-dev] Re: Gentoo-dev whitelisting
The whitelisting of gentoo-dev is now enabled. -A On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 2:57 PM, Alec Warner wrote: > Dear Gentoo Community, > > Gentoo-dev whitelisting[1][2] is nearly ready for deployment. The new > posting guidelines to post on gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org the following: > > - You must be a member of the list to post. > - You must be on the whitelist to post. > > The whitelist automatically whitelists all @gentoo.org addresses. > Additions of addresses to the whitelist can be made by any developer. To > modify the whitelist, please read this wiki page for instructions: > > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Infrastructure/Mailing_ > Lists#Managing_the_Gentoo-Dev_whitelist > > [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964 > [2] The whitelist is not yet live, but I wanted to give folks an > opportunity to populate the whitelist before enabling it; so have at it. > > >
Re: [gentoo-dev] Mailing list moderation and community openness
Hey!!! I'm not going to open that bug, read all these related mailing list discussions or waste time on whatever! Instead, I think it's important some of you read this message: I hope that you choose to stand still for some time, or even sit or lie down for once. Take a deep breath and count to ten, then think about what the goal of Gentoo is and what your goal in this context is. Don't let these goals confuse others into random directions, but make it clear to yourself and everyone what they are. And with those thoughts, as well as second guesses; decide what you really want to do with it, for yourself and for others... Live your life; live it together <3 P.S: Not responding to you in particular, I'm spending my last time to collectively answer multiple threads from now and history On 3/20/2018 1:17 PM, Michael Palimaka wrote: I see that in bug #650964[1] Council is pushing forward again with implementing user whitelisting on this mailing list (ie. anyone that is not "approved" will have their mail rejected). Could someone please explain how this doesn't directly contradict the core tenets of an open and inclusive community? 1: https://bugs.gentoo.org/650964
Re: [gentoo-dev] ATTN: Fw: "Please let's talk if spamming everyone pointlessly is really needed."
Suspension shouldn't leave you out of receiving e-mails from Bugzilla;
if so, I consider that a bug.
On 6/9/2018 12:59 PM, Jeroen Roovers wrote:
Hello fellow humans,
this is a brief headsup about my current inability to communicate
through the official channel bugs.gentoo.org because of what seems like
a ComRel[1] action[2] suspending my account. If you have important
information to share on the many hundreds of packages I maintain, do
not hesitate to use my e-mail address directly or approach me on IRC
(Freenode or OFTC).
Kind regards,
jer
[1] I.e. the people purportedly responsible for ensuring proper
communications between members of the Gentoo Linux community.
[2]
https://rooversj.home.xs4all.nl/gentoo/2018-06-07-204422_1920x1080_scrot.png
Begin forwarded message:
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 22:39:22 +0200
From: "Andreas K. Huettel"
To: Jeroen Roovers
Cc: bugzi...@gentoo.org, com...@gentoo.org
Subject: Re: "Please let's talk if spamming everyone pointlessly is
really needed."
Am Donnerstag, 7. Juni 2018, 20:51:30 CEST schrieb Jeroen Roovers:
What's going on here?
"Please let's talk if spamming everyone pointlessly is really needed."
^^^
If your mind is made up about the point of mass
changes, then why bother enquiring about it? I would think infra@
takes such actions to protect the services, not to argue about the
merits of changes.
This wasn't infra, this was me. Following a complaint on #g-comrel, I
checked the bug backlog and saw that you changed (likely much) more
than 50 bugs in a very short time. On a quick glance the changes were
against longstanding policy.
Thank you for getting back.
* If you see the necessity to change a long-standing guideline,
* and if that involves a lot of people getting a lot of non-informative
bugmail ("spam"),
I would be very grateful if you could
* inform the community about the policy change on the mailing lists,
* and coordinate with Infra so the mails are suppressed somehow.
Thank you. I will happily re-activate your account if you agree to
this, otherwise I'll defer a decision on that to the rest of comrel and
a vote.
For my part, I was doing what I have been doing for more than a
decade.
That is part of the problem.
[gentoo-dev] Last rites: media-libs/libgltf
# Andreas Sturmlechner (10 Jun 2018) # Dead upstream, no more revdeps after LO dropped support. # Masked for removal in 30 days, bug #657400 media-libs/libgltf
