Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: UEFI secure boot and Gentoo

2012-06-22 Thread George Prowse
The Reg has a story on this from a blog post by Red Hat. It may be worth a
read:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/18/windows_8_linux_secure_boot/


Re: [gentoo-dev] A friendly reminder: Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev

2012-06-22 Thread George Prowse

On 22/06/2012 07:40, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:01:15 +0200
Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote:

Just a short note as it seems some confusion arises lately:

Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev and his words don't represent
the position of Gentoo development team.


Right. Doesn't that make me more important than you?

https://lwn.net/Articles/501815/



To Exherbo? Probably



Re: [gentoo-dev] Using Jabber for developer communication

2011-04-10 Thread George Prowse

On 10/04/2011 12:00, Dmitry Dzhus wrote:

When will Gentoo switch over to glorious and progressive Jabber
from outdated and obsolete IRC?

Gentoo will always look towards the future for ways to communicate. 
Instead of using a currently popular format such as Jabber we are trying 
to predict the curve so that we dont have to switch from another 
obsolete format in 5 years time.


Currently, research has told us that that the best format for 
communication is MSN




Re: [gentoo-dev] Quantity of open bugs

2011-03-11 Thread George Prowse

On 10/03/2011 20:25, Kevin F. Quinn wrote:

Hi all,

I was nosing through bugzilla, and noticed:

* Number of open bugs is greater than 14,000
* Number of open bugs untouched for more than 2 years - well over 2000.
* Number of open bugs untouched between 1 and 2 years - well over 2000.
* Number of open bugs untouched between 6 months and 1 year - well over
   2000.
* Number of open bugs untouched between 3 months and 6 months - over
   2000

The winner is bug #78406, which hasn't been touched for over 2240 days
- over 6 years - at the time of writing.

I would guess these old untouched bugs aren't actually going to be
touched, ever - a lot simply won't be relevant any more for one reason
or another.  All they're doing is cluttering up bugzilla.


So I'd like to suggest a drastic, perhaps controversial action.  Mark
all bugs that haven't been touched for over (say) 3 months as
Resolved:Wontfix, with a polite comment saying that it is closed due
to lack of resource amongst the volunteer developer community.  I'm
sure a suitable bugzilla script wiz could do that relatively
easily.  Users who care about such bugs can still comment on them, or
talk directly to the assigned dev to highlight it's still a relevant
issue to them, or even to supply a solution against the current tree.

It could be an ongoing policy, in which case, users who care about
them can keep bugs alive simply by posting useful updates to the bug,
describing how the issue still applies to a new revision for example.

Just a thought from an old ex-dev...

Kev.

Why not give userrel a list of 2000 bugs from 6 years old to 6 months 
old to elcit help from the community?


A dev could look why a user marked it cantfix e.g. refers to outdated 
version of baselayout and tick it off the list so it no longer appears.


G



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Git commit mails/CIA.vc notifications

2011-02-04 Thread George Prowse

On 04/02/2011 22:41, Duncan wrote:

Jeroen Roovers posted on Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:08:24 +0100 as excerpted:


On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 03:26:16 +0100 Christian Ruppertid...@gentoo.org
wrote:


Hey guys,


Only half of people? :)


That's just /begging/ a reply.


No. It wasn't. Please stop filling up my inbox.

Yes I know what the next reply is.



Re: [gentoo-dev] [warning] the bug queue has 118 bugs

2010-12-28 Thread George Prowse

On 28/12/2010 21:11, Rich Freeman wrote:
On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org 
mailto:j...@gentoo.org wrote:


On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:31:28 +0100
Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com mailto:reave...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Well, before I became developer, I had a quite unproductive
 discussion on IRC with Jeroen on that matter (jer opting for status
 quo and telling me I have no idea what bug wrangling is :P)

I have no idea what you are talking about.


I'd like to turn this discussion into a more productive direction 
(let's wrangle bugs, and not argue over who said what to who when).


First, I'd like to say thanks to those who put a great deal of care 
into bug-wrangling, and I think all will agree that Jer does a LOT in 
this regard.  It is very clear to me that when bugs get assigned to me 
that they've generally been well-triaged and I'm sure that a lot of 
cruft gets pruned before I even get an email.


That said, part of me wants to think aloud about whether we're 
over-investing in triaging bugs in the queue and this is leading to 
the queue getting out of hand.  The problem I see with our current 
bug-wrangling procedures (as documented on the official site) is that 
they seem a bit daunting to me.  I see this problem at work all the 
time - procedures that are very complex either need to be an assigned 
job, or they need to be simplified.  If they remain complex but 
free-for-all then nobody wants to touch them, since nobody gets yelled 
at individually if they don't step in, but if they step in and mess up 
suddenly they have egg on their face.


Something that might help would be a one touch bug queue (think 
Getting Things Done).  Wrangler looks at bug, and bug ends up in one 
of two categories IMMEDIATELY:
1.  Bug has required info and can be assigned to a maintainer.  Go 
ahead and assign.
2.  Bug is missing required info or seems vague.  Immediately add a 
comment stating what is needed, with link to website with bug 
submission procedure that wasn't followed, and resolve invalid. 
 Comment should welcome submitter to re-open with the required info.


This gets stale bugs out of the queue without a lot of fuss.  It also 
means that everything in the queue needs attention and nobody spends 
time reading a bug just to find out that it is stuck and needs no 
attention by a wrangler.


Also - I think we need to make other forms of triage a best-effort 
sort of activity.  If a wrangler wants to try to triage a bug they 
should be welcome to try.  If a wrangler notices a dup, they are 
welcome to handle accordingly.  If a wrangler misses a dup or doesn't 
do triage, that is fine too, as long as they either resolve invalid or 
assign.  That does mean a bit more bugspam for downstream devs, but it 
is pretty easy for me to spot dups for the packages I'm most familiar 
with, and it is much harder for a wrangler to spot them across the 
entire tree.


The overall goal is to make wrangling simple, but still a value-add. 
 We can leave room for those who want to do more.  If we end up with a 
big pool of serious wranglers they can just post on -dev saying that 
they've got things under control and then those less serious about it 
can step out and allow for more triage.  When the wranglers get 
underwater everybody else can step in and quickly clean up.


I guess the question is whether the resulting shorter queue and lower 
latency is worth the tradeoff in having package maintainers get a few 
extra bugs that might have been avoided in triage.  I'd be interested 
in Jer's perspective on how many bugs get squashed during triage.


Thoughts?

Rich


If it was just a case of checking if the right info was there then it 
could be done by a few reasonably-Gentoo-savvy volunteers who check the 
list a couple of times a day. Otherwise you're pretty much adding in 
just another step in the process which seems like the opposite of what 
you are trying to accomplish.


G


Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open

2010-06-16 Thread George Prowse

On 05/06/2010 01:00, Torsten Veller wrote:

Hello fellow developers and users.

...

I'd like to nominate Amne, dsd and Antarus

G



Re: [gentoo-dev] About libpng-1.4 handling

2010-05-11 Thread George Prowse

On 11/05/2010 04:52, Mike Frysinger wrote:

On Monday 10 May 2010 23:10:48 Markos Chandras wrote:

provide a user friendly way to migrate to the new libpng without the need
to spend so many hours digging around on which packages to rebuild.


if you're digging around then clearly you havent done the obvious and run
revdep-rebuild ?  that is pretty user-friendly.

Samuli is right though ... this isnt really something that can be reverted
without breaking things just as much.  either help out with the problem (see
the open bug report), or add yourself to the cc list and wait.  harping on
people only serves to annoy.
-mike


I have run revdep-rebuild about 30 times and I still can't fix it. 
revdep-rebuild does not fix it and libpng needs to have some serious 
action before it goes stable because I booted into, basically a 
completely broken machine because I had to stop a large upgrade on the 
previous emerge (~300 packages) in the middle.




Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

2010-04-13 Thread George Prowse

On 10/04/2010 19:04, Vincent Launchbury wrote:

On 04/10/10 11:25, William Hubbs wrote:

Yes, it does. However, I would tend to question how practical their
audio captcha is. Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few
times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.


Just for reference, I tried 15 different sound clips and got 5 right. 9
were completely incomprehensible, 1 was fuzzy, and the other 5 were
quite clear.

I'd agree that accessibility is important, but if a better solution
doesn't end up working out, ReCaptcha should at least provide access for
blind users, albeit inefficiently.

I was just at Microsoft's site for the hotfix download to fix the 
Advanced Local Procedure Call problem in Server 2008R2 and you need to 
enter a captcha to get the link sent to your email address.


Just as I was about to enter it I thought I would listen to it just for 
the hell of it... I couldn't understand a thing, it sounded like two 
ferrets fighting infront of a de-tuned radio.


Whatever system the wiki and the forums have we better make it sure it 
is the right one because there would be nothing worse than going to a 
site and finding you can't use it because of a rubbish captcha system.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 12:32, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamfordneddyseag...@gentoo.org  wrote:


Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark
requirements.


But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs
to happen on each page:


the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a 
news site, fan site, unofficial site or community site


See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml

Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux
Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it
is an official project.

If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are 
wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is 
to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of 
Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:

On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:
[...]

If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
litigation when trying to protect it's logo.


I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.


There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-12 Thread George Prowse

On 12/04/2010 14:22, Arun Raghavan wrote:

On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:

On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote:


On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote:
[...]


If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong.
Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help
Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like
litigation when trying to protect it's logo.


I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if
perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light.


There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise


Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a
world-editable wiki.


A simple warning should suffice:

While the Gentoo community takes a large amount of care to keep the 
wiki's information correct, problems like deprecation of features, 
misinformed users and vandalism can and will always be a problem with 
the wiki format. If you see a problem please feel free to fix it, notify 
a member of the developer team or send an email to w...@gentoo.org


Also adding a notice like Gentoo takes no responsibility for when you 
b0rk your box by setting the wrong CTARGET somewhere would be good.


Those two should cover all the bases.



Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

2010-04-10 Thread George Prowse

On 10/04/2010 05:10, William Hubbs wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:

Does mediawiki have captcha ability?


Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.


  I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
  unless you provide an audio solution as well.  Otherwise, you will
  affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
  currentlylocked out of the forums.
http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362

Thanks,

while we are on the subject, can tomk or whoever is the head forums 
techie these days fix up an accessibility suitable system for the 
forums? It has been six months since that bug was opened.




Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

2010-04-10 Thread George Prowse

On 10/04/2010 16:25, William Hubbs wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:06:57PM +0300, Dror Levin wrote:

On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbswilli...@gentoo.org  wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com  wrote:

Does mediawiki have captcha ability?


Yes, there are a number of solutions for that.


??I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here
??unless you provide an audio solution as well. ??Otherwise, you will
??affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are
??currentlylocked out of the forums.
http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362

We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides
audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough.


  Yes, it does.  However, I would tend to question how practical their
  audio captcha is.  Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times
  and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it.


Is there a better system?



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread George Prowse

On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca  wrote:

There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like 
I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.


Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,


I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have 
said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review 
documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great 
place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.


The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial 
wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going 
to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going 
to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project

2010-04-09 Thread George Prowse

On 09/04/2010 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote:

On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:

On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca   wrote:

There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my 
knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a 
Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be.

My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for 
debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like 
I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people.


Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not
even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with
constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of
the project.

Cheers,


I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have
said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review
documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great
place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages.

The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial
wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going
to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going
to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.



Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could 
(would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get 
some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to 
speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset.
It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize 
documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say 
If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki.

I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, 
correct me :-)

I see it as a collaboration piece, something to bridge the gap between 
developers and users. Users can create pages detailing certain facets of 
Gentoo and it may get to be included in the documentation on gentoo.org.


Some documentation is unfit for an official wiki but that doesn't mean 
that the information doesn't need to be there for users, that is where 
the official and unofficial wiki should work together .




Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process

2010-04-05 Thread George Prowse

On 05/04/2010 17:07, Jon Portnoy wrote:

On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote:

Just replying randomly.

On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote:

I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the some important
questions are too hard to answer dilemma that can be implemented
relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the
quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I
just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3.


I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so
demotivating about the ebuild quiz.  If you get demotivated because of a
single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the
exam itself.  I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to
see where I missed.  It is not that long.



Agreed...

I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we
originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try
to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the
entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a suggestion from Daniel).

As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful
in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to
even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy,
unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names,
but I've seen this often.

IMO, those boring too much like high school quizzes serve one
extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player
(or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the
Greater Good)

If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is
working as it should? :)

That assumes the system is working perfectly and the whole fact that we 
are having this discussion would go against that.


From what i've read in the community, lots of people would have no 
problems helping out maintaining packages, they just don't want the 
baggage that comes with it.


You could say they're lazy or they're not the type of developers you 
want but at the end of the day they're just different developers, most 
of whom probably just want to make sure the packages they like are in 
the tree and updated.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Is Gentoo dying?

2010-04-04 Thread George Prowse
If you want to gauge the feeling in the community there are a couple of 
threads in the forums.


Currently this answer seems to be typical of the general consensus when 
asked what they could do to help Gentoo/become a developer:


http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-6230439.html#6230439



Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

2010-04-04 Thread George Prowse

On 04/04/2010 20:33, Joshua Saddler wrote:

On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:23:54 +0200
Ben de Grootyng...@gentoo.org  wrote:


...


...


GuideXML is only easy if you are used to xml or html. Wikimarkup is only 
easy if you are used to it as well. The difference is that with 
mediawiki all you have to do is press a button to get your italics, 
headers, lists and whatever else - making the chance having 
documentation written a lot higher.




Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process

2010-04-03 Thread George Prowse

On 03/04/2010 14:40, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 3 April 2010 13:33, Richard Freemanri...@gentoo.org  wrote:

I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. Right
now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a Gentoo dev
and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev.  That means we have great people,
but not many of them.


I agree. So what can we do to improve this process?

I myself am not fond of the quizzes, and from what I've seen most
recruits find them tedious as well. It can be quite demotivating,
maybe because it reminds one too much of highschool or something.
I took a long time myself to finish them, and that wouldn't have
been necessary, as my mentors ensured me I was ready to become a
dev. And I see the same thing happening with some of my own recruits.
They can be ready, but  just find the quizzes a chore.

So I think we need to rethink how to do this. What I have found very
helpful is to have my recruits working on actual ebuilds. The
sunrise project is ideally qualified to mold ebuild editors into
shape. Working on official overlays such as qting-edge and/or doing
proxy maintenance is also very helpful.

Recruiters (with some additional manpower) could make a list of
technical issues that recruits need to be aware of, and then gather
a number of ebuilds that display these problems and let recruits
correct some of these, under guidance of their mentors. This may
possibly be more fun and closer to the actual work that is required
of developers.

Of course this doesn't address the organizational side of things, so
we need to come up with something else for that.

Another problem I see is that our documentation seems to be scattered
all over the place. I propose that we make at least one portal page
for (prospective) developers that will link them to all the resources
they might need. It also means our existing documentation needs to
be brought and kept up to date.

Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process?



I suggested a while ago that you should have recruitment drives and 
recruitment days. Set aside a day where a few devs can answer any 
questions about what it takes to be a developer - the skills required, 
the time that needs to be set aside, the behavior expected and goals 
that developers aspire to.


Set up some threads on the forums, a channel on irc, a list like 
gentoo-recruitment and a FAQ on the front page of the website.


Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a 
willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them 
to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo 
wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified 
developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited 
knowlege to help out


If you build it, they will come



Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process

2010-04-03 Thread George Prowse

On 03/04/2010 15:05, Petteri Räty wrote:

On 04/03/2010 04:53 PM, George Prowse wrote:



Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a
willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them
to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo
wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified
developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited
knowlege to help out



http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/

I don't know if developers know that this page is autogenerated from
individual project pages these days so it's easy for any developer to
get stuff there.



Looking at that page it seems clear that that is not a comprehensive list.

Maybe if all herds posted who and what they require like this:

Java Herd

2 people needed -

Essential: Java knowlege
Recommended - Javascript and ebuild writing

If no-one is willing to put a plan forward then I might acquiesce to do it.



Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki

2010-04-03 Thread George Prowse

On 03/04/2010 18:40, AllenJB wrote:

On 03/04/10 14:40, Dror Levin wrote:

On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 16:19, Ben de Grootyng...@gentoo.org  wrote:

2 - maintainers
===

Who is volunteering for maintaining the wiki? We need editors and
moderators, people who look out for quality control and take care of
spam removal. So let's get together a team. I'm sure if we ask on the
forums we'll get some users interested as well.

I volunteer. Spam shouldn't be that much of an issue if editing is
restricted to registered users, but it is a good idea to have a team
of moderators similar to the one that exists for the forums (of course
users can take part of it as well as developers).


Most of the spam on gentoo-wiki.com comes from registered accounts.
Requiring registration does not stop most wiki spam. Very little of the
spam comes in from unregistered editors.


On gentoo-wiki.com we currently use a combination of anti-spam tools,
which seems to work best. The main 2, from a day-to-day administration
view are the url blacklist and manual removal of spam and associated
accounts.

You could require email authentication first, but I believe this is
unlikely to reduce spam - creating a setup that automatically deals with
account verification emails is trivial and throwaway accounts are too
easy to get hold of.

In addition I believe it would reduce the amount of positive
contribution more than it reduces spam - I believe people often want to
make quick, small corrections / additions and telling them to come back
later is going to be the same as telling them go away.

I would highly recommend using MediaWiki as, at least from my
experience, it's the most prevalent of the wiki setups available. While
this may bring some disadvantages (number of spam attempts (tho I'm
nottotally convinced you'll get less than any other web form out there),
etc), it also brings the advantages of being well developed with a wide
variety of plugins, lots of wiki syntax guides / tutorials you can point
users to and a wide userbase with existing knowledge of the syntax.

AllenJB


Does mediawiki have captcha ability?



Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item

2010-03-26 Thread George Prowse

On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote:

It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't
subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I
subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under
the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much
fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list.

Also, if python3 is marked as stable, people will assume it is safe to
switch to. That's what stable means.

Back to my hole.

Dale

:-) :-)



It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything 
newest, highest and shiniest.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Marking bugs for bugday?

2010-03-01 Thread George Prowse

On 01/03/2010 22:19, Ben de Groot wrote:

On 1 March 2010 22:17, Ioannis Aslanidisaslani...@gmail.com  wrote:

[...]


Great ideas!


The teams should send the list of
bugs, with each bug filling a skeleton similar to the following:

  * Ticket number.
  * Title.
  * Clear, easy to understand, short description of what we want to
delegate to our users.
  * Topic of the task (as in networking, C/C++, python, ebuild, etc.).
  * Difficulty of the task.
  * Detailed step-by-step description of the task.


This will not work. You need to keep things really simple for our devs.
I don't see anybody but the most dedicated ones, who also happen
to have a lot of time on their hands, fill out such a detailed form.

I'd say let devs just nominate bugs, either by adding BugDay to
the keywords field or something similar, or by passing the bugday
team a list of bug numbers. Then the bugday team can sort these
and see if any instructions are needed. They could always ask the
involved devs/teams for more info when necessary.

Cheers,


You don't need to make it compulsory to fill out those fields and if 
just 1 out of every 10 or 20 bugs gets that filled then it is still a 
big leap forward.


Or... Ask for a dev whose whole job is to fill out those forms. I'm sure 
there are plenty of non-coders out there who would be willing to do it, 
even a team!




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: 2009.0 profiles

2009-09-11 Thread George Prowse

Mike Frysinger wrote:

...


Why not tie the the thing that makes Gentoo unique and one of the major 
reasons why users use it to the version numbers - Portage.


We had 1.2, then 1.4 then 2004.0 and if i'm not mistaken portage is at 
2.1 currently. Tie it in and we have 2.2 (currently masked) next. Add 
release candidates along the way and everyone is happy. But i'm sure 
there is a million reasons why this is wrong... Bring on the wrath.


George



Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009.0 profiles

2009-08-28 Thread George Prowse
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Mike Frysinger wrote:
 On Friday 28 August 2009 16:27:18 Sebastian Pipping wrote:
 Mike Frysinger wrote:
 10.0 is retarded
 How would you like the problem to be addressed?

 we already have a simple logical version system.  2009.0 is the
 next step. -mike
I think 2.0 sounds good
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkqYeagACgkQCt8MOSeAf9rNXQCePeRtsqNeh7vIhuplYx0Q57nx
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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

2009-06-28 Thread George Prowse

Wulf C. Krueger wrote:
I think it would be in the best interest of both Exherbo and Gentoo to elect 
gentoofan23, betelgeuse, dev-zero, peper, calchan and dertobi123 to the Gentoo 
Council.


Why is Exherbo's interests anything to do with Gentoo's? Does this 
happen with Sabayon or SystemRescueCd or any other Gentoo-based distro?


 This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev-
 zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council
 meeting.

If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him to 
speak on the board of a hospital




Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

2009-06-28 Thread George Prowse

Alistair Bush wrote:


As our closest relative ( of any distro ) 


You mean apart from all the other Gentoo based distros?



Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

2009-06-28 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:31:43 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:

  This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev-
  zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council
  meeting.

If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him
to speak on the board of a hospital


Coming from you, George, that's rather rich... Also, I would like to
remind you that the Council's decision was everything to do with the
rules not allowing a non-developer to proxy (a claim which has yet to
be substantiated), and nothing to do with the attempts of a small number
of malcontents that anything involving me, Paludis or Exherbo is so
amazingly evil that it must be entirely ignored.

I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list will 
endear yourself to everyone.


Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you 
would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 
years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a 
developer again.


Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is the 
wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing means that 
you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not only Gentoo 
but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your trolling on the 
lists and your banning from the forums).


If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join the 
exherbo council?




Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections

2009-06-28 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:46:27 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:

I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list
will endear yourself to everyone.


Uh, isn't that exactly what you're doing?


Nope, I never mentioned anything personal about you, in fact I can't 
remember mentioning your name at all.


Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you 
would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 
years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a 
developer again.


Why? I'm interested in getting things done, not in jumping through
arbitrary hoops and starting yet another silly Gentoo politics flamewar.


You choose to be in these flamewars. As I stated, if you really cared 
then at some time since your exclusion you would have worked on Gentoo 
and kept your nose clean, people would have had no choice but to accept 
you had noting but Gentoo's best interest at heart.



Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is
the wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing
means that you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not
only Gentoo but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your
trolling on the lists and your banning from the forums).


I'm not trying to get into Gentoo by proxy at all. I shall remind you
that this was Tiziano's request and decision, not mine, and that I was
merely helping Gentoo out by carrying out a request from a Council
member.


You're not stupid, you knew exactly what would happen and you let all 
the flames come instead of being humble and suggesting that it wasn't 
the best idea.



If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join
the exherbo council?


That's not my decision. I don't have anything to do with the running of
Exherbo. However, if Patrick or Plasmaroo have useful contributions for
Exherbo, I would be happy to ensure that those contributions get
applied.


Don't take that too literally, it was only meant as an example.


Again, this is not about me or Exherbo. It's about the Council's
unsubstantiated claim that the rules prohibit a Council member from
selecting a non-developer as a proxy.

If you select a non-developer as a proxy then it degrades what it means 
to be a developer. Would you be happy if you local MP got his granny to 
vote in parliament when he was on holiday?




Re: [gentoo-dev] The fallacies of GLEP55

2009-05-14 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 14 May 2009 20:06:51 +0200
Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote:

You need to know the EAPI to parse the ebuild to find the EAPI
Obviously that's not true, because somehow we manage at the moment.
And if one does a small restriction (which doesn't restrict current
behaviour because all in-tree ebuilds currently fit within this
limitation) it becomes trivial again:

Let EAPI be defined as (the part behind the = of) the first line of
the ebuild starting with EAPI=


Uh, so horribly utterly and obviously wrong.

inherit foo
EAPI=4

where foo is both a global and a non-global eclass that sets metadata.

If you're looking for a formally correct alternative that works in the
way you suggest, I already provided one, and you already read about it
-- and it still doesn't solve the problems that 55 does.


It's slower!
The theory here being that a stat() is needed if it is encoded in the 
filename, but a stat() followed by an open() to parse it from the

file. Well then, just cache it! You can use the mtime to check the
cache validity (which means you do a stat() anyway, so with glep55
caching it is actually slower!), and then you have to parse the
ebuild anyway for the other metadata. So the extra cost of finding
the EAPI is ... what extra cost? The only case when it is actually
slower is when there is no cache because then you have to parse the
ebuild. But that degenerate case will only hit some overlay users
and people like developers that can wait .3 seconds longer. And ...
uhm ... to extract other metadata like DEPENDS you'll have to parse
it anyway.


Where on earth are you getting the idea that GLEP 55 makes things
slower? The only difference to the code with GLEP 55 is in checking
file extensions against a slightly larger set of strings, which is
nowhere near a measurable increase in anything. You're claiming that
checking for a suffix of either .ebuild-4 or .ebuild against a
fixed string is in any way relevant, which is obviously trolling.


Having GLEP55 allows us to add GLEP54 without issues!
Yeah, uhm, the live-ness of an ebuild is an attribute. How about we
add it to metadata, as we should for all metadata? Define a key, I
don't know ... LIVE ? LIVE=true. There. No need to fix the
filename. And now stop mixing up issues because it is highly
confusing!


There is no existing version ordering solution that accurately
represents upstream scm branches.

A few words in closing - 


We can encode all the relevant info in the first line of the ebuild
starting with EAPI=


No we can't. That's *obviously* completely wrong.


The overhead of parsing out this value for all ebuilds in the tree
has been timed at ~2 CPU-seconds by solar. It's negligible.


Those of us who have been measuring this have been discarding CPU time
entirely, since it's utterly irrelevant. That you bring CPU time into
this shows you've been deliberately ignoring everything we've said.

We all know you're not stupid enough to believe what you've been
posting or ignorant enough to miss the point so badly. So please stop
pretending -- this issue would have gone through a long time ago were
it not for you and your ilk deliberately pretending to be retarded so
you can raise straw man arguments against it rather than addressing the
issues at hand. You're doing both yourself and everyone else a huge
disfavour by acting dumb and assuming everyone else is going to play
along with that.

Having countered those four points I guess you agree with the other five 
then. Over 50% success rate (by your definition) is hardly being 
ignorant or trolling




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-11 Thread George Prowse

Thilo Bangert wrote:
to me, the above two contradictory viewpoints are the essence of the 
apparent and real decline in Gentoo activity. The two are just not 
compatible with each other and there is no clear guidance on to which of 
the two should be followed.


in the one corner we have the 'Daniel Robbins' corner, which stands for an 
open and inclusive process, which favors new comers, wants fast progress 
regardsless of the technical limitations of that process. also, being nice 
is more important than being correct. one central repository is where all 
development should happen - this is were we came from.


in the other corner is the gentoo leftover of the exherbo fork: the few 
people how continue to work on Gentoo but generally prefer the direction 
of Exherbo. technical elitism, explicitism and  formal standardization are 
their trade. being correct is more important than good intentions. 
overlays or multiple repositories help achieve a hierarchy of not-good-to-

supported ebuilds. we are halfway here...


it would be good if we collectively could agree on some of these issues, 
in order to move forward. as with many of the other technical discussions 
which lead to nowhere, it's more important that there is a clear 
direction, than into which direction we are headed.


maybe we need a debian project leader position - or a council, which is 
sensitive to the internal devide among developers and gives clear 
directions.


if the above offends you, please take a walk before replying. it may sound 
inflammtory - its not meant to be.


thanks
Thilo

People have been trying to resolve the situation you described for a 
long time. Working within it and minimising the negative effects of such 
stark contrasts in views has been one of the challenges of Gentoo in 
recent times. An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently 
works.


I doubt a figurehead would make any difference. They would need nerves 
of steel and would have to not care about making unpopular decisions and 
it would be difficult to take anyone from the current crop of 
[excellent] developers because it seems that everyone has taken sides 
already so immediately any decision was made an argument about bias 
would be likely come up


G



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-11 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:

An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works.


An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for
debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the
equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the
same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an
increasingly difficult and more competitive environment.

Well, anything is better than the Romeo and Juliet-esque factions at war 
a few years ago; as you and plasmaroo could probably attest to.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-07 Thread George Prowse

Arttu V. wrote:

On 5/7/09, Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote:

There's no reason that can't be done via email, and throwing in
some live commit feed action might make it a bit interesting. =:^)


I'm sensing a sort of a patches welcome attitude from the crowd,
i.e., not falling for a hard sell of just the idea. And as it stands,
they may also be familiar with your emails from, e.g., gentoo-user
list? :)

Maybe you have to prove the functionality of your email-based
processes over irc-oriented ones by, e.g., forking gentoo into
duncantoo (or whatever, duncantoo.org appears to be available) and
running things successfully on email for a while? ;)

Oh good lord, what have I started here... I can see that being as 
successful as the Norweigan referee in last nights Chelsea v Barcelona game




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote:

On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote:

Arch
teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs
on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well
supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help.

Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major
arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date )

The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of
slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on
amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though.

Thomas

/me is listing all the reported issues

Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the 
project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that 
Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new 
developers right now


This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how 
do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and 
updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 
15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ).


If we really (?) want  to run a recruitment campaign, our web presence but 
be quite active and responsible.


Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with? 
If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Thomas Sachau wrote:

George Prowse schrieb:

Thomas Sachau wrote:

For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with
ebuilds, there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the
documentation from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for
everyone willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to
create ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are
maintained, that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there
is a good chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This
was my way to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points
(probably other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem
may be the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and
our options to become a new
developer.


I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join
you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully
be here for years to come.




Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So 
if anyone is willing
to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and 
time myself.

The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people 
to the sunrise project
and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail.

I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's 
red tape.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100
George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote:
If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to

walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer
then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who
will hopefully be here for years to come.


That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo
recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With
lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have
ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only
recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more
developers.

And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on now, 
you'll have to do better than that.


In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't have 
the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring

2009-05-04 Thread George Prowse

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp


Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you 
will be missed.


I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things 
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has 
been improving in the past 12 months.


About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago 
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in 
much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can 
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a 
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything 
about Gentoo wanting people.


If you book them, they will come.

G



[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-04 Thread George Prowse

Thomas Sachau wrote:

Mario Fetka schrieb:

On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote:

Peter Faraday Weller wrote:

Hi

Thanks,
welp

Sad to hear it mate.

As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you
will be missed.

I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things
because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has
been improving in the past 12 months.

About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago
might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in
much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can
come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a
vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything
about Gentoo wanting people.

If you book them, they will come.

G

and I would be the first to come

Mario





For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, 
there is already an option:

Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation 
from the topic. The
Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone 
willing to learn and
contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create 
ebuilds, how to improve them
and how to maintain them.
As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, 
that dont get a
developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all 
contributors learn the ebuild
development work themselves.

And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good 
chance that you may
level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way 
to become a full
Gentoo developer. ;-)

So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably 
other projects also
have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be 
the communication
between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options 
to become a new
developer.



I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join 
you will always be understaffed.


Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal 
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux 
magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people 
talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell 
the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference!


If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly 
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk 
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the 
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully 
be here for years to come.




Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development

2009-05-04 Thread George Prowse

Mounir Lamouri wrote:

George Prowse wrote:

I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to
join you will always be understaffed.

Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal
communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some
linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get
people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your
hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a
difference!

If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly
with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk
people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the
influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will
hopefully be here for years to come.


I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I
sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we
can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that user should not
ask and should wait to be asking. I'm not sure most devs are looking to
users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy.
Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed
like it looks like.
An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very
positive and I would be glad to help with that.

Regards,
Mounir



I'm always willing to help also. I have plenty of time on my hands.

First you need a date, then you need some devs who will be at their 
computers then you can go ape. Message everyone under the sun that 
Gentoo is going on a recruitment drive on from $date and there will be 
lots of friendly people in $location, $location and $location to show 
people what is required.


Of course it would be easier if we had a list from Gentoo where help is 
needed most and we could broadcast for people in those areas.


We could even write a web page where people added their names and 
details as a kind of pre-signup to test the water and see how many 
people we might get. Keep the names visible because that might create 
extra PR.


Gentoo is looking for linux personnel and also those familiar with the 
distribution itself. What is required is either linux experience or 
experience with Gentoo, knowlege of bash and a helpful, happy attitude...


If it were successful then a large group of mentors would be needed.



Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retirement

2008-08-11 Thread George Prowse

On 11 Aug 2008, at 14:19, Patrick Lauer wrote:


Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:11 -0700
Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Despite our best efforts Gentoo is not a fun-loving community where
everyone gets along.



Actually, I'd say that's a fairly accurate description of the  
problem.

Some people think Gentoo should primarily be a fun-loving community
where everyone gets along, whilst others think Gentoo should  
primarily

be a first-rate distribution delivering a quality product.

You say that as if it is mutually exclusive. I claim that having fun  
leads to quality products because of motivation and the feedback  
between people where one challenges the other to do better - I've  
seen quite a few examples of such interactions in the past, but  
thanks to depressing monologues by people with too much ego that is  
becoming more and more rare.


Gentoo is supposed to be fun.

If it stops being fun only grumpy old men will do the bare minimum  
to keep things from breaking too badly instead of improving things.  
Meh. I demand mandatory fun hours twice a week! And a coffee  
machine. And a pony. Yes! A pony!


GLEP 57. Coffee machine and Pony Needed.

When in need of help, Gentoo needs a knight in shining armour, that  
usually comes as coffee so to facilitate that we need a coffee machine  
and a pony. I have just been informed by amne that the pony needs to  
be pink.




Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-20 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
Ivan Chernyavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the
right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I
thought technical discussions are of most importance here.


You are sadly mistaken... snip


Once again, all accusations and no proof.

--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]

2008-06-20 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 +
Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400
| * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the
| ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently
| forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current
| Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers
| to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA.

Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If
not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD?


I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on
the record statements, if you're interested.


I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous.
--
gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list



Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2008/2009 Nominations end TODAY 23:59 UTC

2008-06-18 Thread George Prowse
Although he has been nominated already and thus declined I would still 
like amne to change his mind and run for council again.


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-18 Thread George Prowse

++

It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of 
developers will be thinking the same.


In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and 
force it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best 
for all if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making 
paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start...


Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote:

Chris++

On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 15:50 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
  Do you think that the differences between the proportion of patches
  from 'Paludis people' that are accepted or rejected and the
proportion
  of patches from 'Portage people' or 'Pkgcore people' indicates a
  problem?

Nope.   What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current
de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly
removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written
for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's
development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks.  Quite
frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that
defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the
non-Gentoo developers from its development.  No offense, but you're not
a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we*
manage ourselves.  You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or
whatever the hell you want.  This is open source, after all, but that
doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over
Gentoo that you've been granted.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Games Developer




--
Mauricio Lima Pilla
Polytechnic Center - UCPEL

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

http://g3pd.ucpel.tche.br/~pilla
key 0x37705BE0

I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept.
-- Calvin


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-12 Thread George Prowse

Luca Barbato wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

Package manager maintainers refusing to do basic testing before
claiming support for a new EAPI has very messy consequences. If package
manager maintainers aren't going to do the responsible thing, the whole
point of EAPIs is lost.


Thats a circular argument since portage and pkgcore developers are 
complaining about eapi definition and PMS management.


lu

If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be given 
to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]

2008-06-12 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +0100
George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be
given to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word.


Considering third parties have at best contributed a few small patches,
I don't see that getting very far... If a third party's genuinely
prepared to take over and do the work they're more than welcome to.

I dont see that the work isn't done, I see arguing about standards and 
implementations and as there is 3 voices in this and little is being 
decided then anything that can't be sorted should be submitted for 
review and decisions taken.


There are things that I don't understand about the EAPI structure (why 
versions may be incompatible with each other) but it seems like we are 
heading for differing standards soon.


Feel free to flame and call me a fool...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June

2008-06-12 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/


There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane
decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on
PMS appears to have commit access to it...


I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable.

With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined 
standard is no longer sufficient... makes it sound like the previous 
work that was done was by idiots.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June

2008-06-12 Thread George Prowse

Thomas Anderson wrote:

On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11:51PM +0100, George Prowse wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400
Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. 
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/

There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane
decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on
PMS appears to have commit access to it...

I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable.

With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined standard 
is no longer sufficient... makes it sound like the previous work that was 
done was by idiots.

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That says nothing about the previous state of the portage. It only says
the standard wasn't well-defined before PMS.

It sounds and looks bad. It is so poorly written it looks as if the 
author is saying the last one was crap so we have to do a better one. 
In fact, ill-defined needn't be in there at all. this is no longer 
sufficient is sufficient. A better thing to write would be:


With the advent of alternative package managers a further defining of 
standard is necessary...

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009

2008-06-06 Thread George Prowse

Alex Howells wrote:


In short: vote for me if you want less bullshit, less asshats and a
more fun distribution. That is all.


Damn! Astinus for PM! :)

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[gentoo-dev] Council Idea

2008-06-06 Thread George Prowse
I have an strange idea, it will probably get shot down by everyone or 
people will point out that it has been discussed and thought it was a 
bad idea but anyway...


...why not invite a developer from another distribution to join the council?

I think inviting co-operation from other areas would only be of benefit. 
Ideas could get a fresh view, decisions would be completely unbiased and 
previous politics would never come into play.


It may have some ancillary benefits. Close co-operation with another 
distribution could lead to a lasting co-operation of mutual help and 
collaboration and could well be a format that other distros use in the 
future.


flame away...

George

(sorry if the post sounds hippie-ish)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009

2008-06-06 Thread George Prowse

Ferris McCormick wrote:

I also nominate:
NeddySeagoon

Regards,
Ferris


I completely agree. Few people have done more behind the scenes as Roy.

I would also like to nominate zmendico for his excellent work with portage.

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

2008-06-05 Thread George Prowse

William L. Thomson Jr. wrote:

On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote:

Alex Howells wrote:

2008/6/3 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

Thirded

Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.

Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.


Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not
believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the
Foundation.


Sorry, my bad. I presumed he was talking about the council
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

2008-06-03 Thread George Prowse

Josh Saddler wrote:

Denis Dupeyron wrote:

Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In
alphabetical order:
amne
betelgeuse
dberkholz
flameeyes
jokey
lu_zero
vapier


Seconded.


Thirded
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

2008-06-03 Thread George Prowse

Alex Howells wrote:

2008/6/3 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]:

Thirded


Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp
gets a second.


Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council

2008-06-03 Thread George Prowse

Ulrich Mueller wrote:

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote:



Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to
nominate or support nominations?

[...]



Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote.


GLEP 39 says something else:

| * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs
|   once per year.

Ulrich


Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate:

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/
6.  Voting Process

* Council elections generally happen once a year
snip
* Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK)

I have voted in the previous 3 elections, 2 of my nominations accepted 
in 2006 :)


http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-nominees.xml
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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2008 Google Summer of Code

2008-02-02 Thread George Prowse

Richard Freeman wrote:

George Prowse wrote:


How does the SoC work within Gentoo? Do the developers suggest things 
they want worked on or do the users suggest things, the developers 
okay it and then they get worked on or what?




I think the good ideas matter more than who came up with them!  If you 
have one - share it!  It obviously needs to be a suitable project, and 
I'm sure the devs would comment on any possibly-unnoticed issues with a 
proposal.  However, the SoC is probably a good opportunity for users 
(and devs) to get some new features that require some investment since 
it is a paid job.


I have asked on the forum and so far the ability to compile applications 
for chroot jail and related parts seems popular.


http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-653624.html
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Re: [gentoo-dev] 2008 Google Summer of Code

2008-01-29 Thread George Prowse

Grant Goodyear wrote:

Google has been hinting not-so-subtlely that there's going to be
a 2008 Google Summer of Code.  I expect that if we want to participate,
we're going to have to have our ducks in a row by March, if not
earlier.

So, does Gentoo want to participate this year?

If so, who's going to run it?  Who's going to help?  What are
we going to do differently this year?

I'll help if it's something people want to do, but I'd like to see
some serious changes this year.  I'd like us to only accept proposals
that we actually think are quite good.  In the past we've been told that we
have N slots to fill, so we choose the best N proposals, despite the
fact that we often only get a handful of exceptional proposals.  I'd
also like to see us require weekly public status reports from our
students.  Quick show of hands: how many people know how what any
of our students accomplished last year?  I doubt there are many,
despite the fact that some good work was done last year.

Thoughts?  Comments?

-g2boojum-


How does the SoC work within Gentoo? Do the developers suggest things 
they want worked on or do the users suggest things, the developers okay 
it and then they get worked on or what?


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey

2008-01-18 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Joe Peterson wrote:


On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +, Steve Long wrote:

Ryan Hill wrote:

I agree, though year of birth might be interesting.  Income and children
are a bit too private.


++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as
relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a
35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all
technical. # of kids isn't relevant.

Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have
(or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable.  I know
people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say
most are, but one does not guarantee the other).  And I'd argue that
someone with children does not necessarily have a lot to show someone
without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing.

There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose
consciously not to have children.  It is becoming more and more a
*choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part
of life.  It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be
careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity.


My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing
not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more
mature than simply drifting into parenthood.

I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo
besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has
a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at
37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal,
as did the earlier process of committing to marriage.

Which is not to denigrate people who chose not to marry; my godchildren's
parents were dead-set about their commitment to each other without a piece
of paper. I guess it's the change between being an individual and feeling a
commitment to someone else. And yeah maybe it's not something we need to
ask anyone, but it is good to consider that there are diverse perspectives
within the group.

In the same vein I asked on project wrt to number of female devs and was
told there are perhaps 3 or 4 iirc.


For a survey of this kind I think questions about children etc are as 
inappropriate as ones about sexual orientation.


Personally i'd stick to the fundamentals.

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage

2007-07-23 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote:

Ryan Hill wrote:

zombieswift/new devs-project
council/trustee nominations -project

Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I
thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous
content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness.


This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished
is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on
everything.

That's what you get for allowing trolls on the list.Sorry for being 
brutally honest but it has been a long time coming...


George
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[gentoo-dev] Re: have any developers subscribed to -project?

2007-07-21 Thread George Prowse

George Prowse wrote:
Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be 
heard from developers...


I would just like to apologise. The reason why so little (e.g. none) 
replies to a certain email were recieved was because list does not have 
reply to munging enabled and therefore only went to one person on the list


G
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-20 Thread George Prowse

Thomas Scharl wrote:

George Prowse schrieb:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
of the user base in general.

So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?


Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
time to respond are highly atypical.


If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you 
would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, 
you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.

No
In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user 
community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to 
contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to 
express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't 
work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or 
alike.
Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all 
channels this still is far from beeing representative.
A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no 
matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to.


Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than 
a technical one.


a) The people who don't actively follow the communication channels 
wouldn't know what was going on so they would never notice! Du...


b) If people don't want to contribute in them then it is up to them. 
People can't complain if they are given the option.


c) You don't need lots of technical skills to help. To be honest, that 
is immaterial anyway, there is a huge wealth of knowlege in the forums 
community (that is unused by Gentoo) and there are always people who 
would explain something in plain language.


George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Getting -project started

2007-07-20 Thread George Prowse

Duncan wrote:

Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted
[EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on 
Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:17:58 -0700:



On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 09:15:31PM -0500, lnxg33k wrote:

Ryan Hill wrote:

These are on gmane now as well.  -dev-announce as RO and -project as
RW.

They should have turned up on archives as well, but don't seem to have
yet.


I'm subscribed to the gmane groups and haven't seen anything there yet 
either, despite the fact that at least one message I xposted, should be 
on both dev and project, and I see others referencing posting to project 
but don't see anything on it on gmane at all.


Is anybody subscribed by mail getting stuff on project yet?  If neither 
gmane or gentoo's archives are showing anything...



I am
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[gentoo-dev] have any developers subscribed to -project?

2007-07-20 Thread George Prowse
Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be 
heard from developers...

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Re: [gentoo-dev] have any developers subscribed to -project?

2007-07-20 Thread George Prowse

Ned Ludd wrote:

On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 20:58 +0100, George Prowse wrote:
  
Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be 
heard from developers...



Please stop flooding my inbox.
  

It is an honest developer question because it was meant to have discussions 
between developers there and if no developers subscribe then what is the point 
of having it? You might as well just close it now

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-19 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:

Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such
Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to
go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most
packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project
which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be
found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no
appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is
usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none
and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it
easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become
developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of
entry anymore.


I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each herd/
package. Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is
busier than #gentoo-kde.

The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions about
changing ebuilds, imo.



If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them!
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-19 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100
George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users...
ask them!


Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
of the user base in general.


that is why the pronoun them is a plural...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-19 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500
Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative
of the user base in general.

So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too?


Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see
the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take
time to respond are highly atypical.


If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you 
would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, 
you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.



I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums


That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has
an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting
information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is
heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out
and participate in that kind of questioning.


Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is 
the reason why it shouldn't be done



as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go
in.


I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package
from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds
and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that?


Irrelevant conclusion



It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
most of the gripers don't vote.


Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
the majority.


It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers.

Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-19 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100
George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not
see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question
and take time to respond are highly atypical.

If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers
you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo
has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users.


No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users
who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well
established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how
widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their
system breaks and they try to find out why.


So you think nothing should be done because some people don't interact 
in the Gentoo communication channels?



I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums

That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you
what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again,
not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo
has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users.
Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who
respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have
time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning.

Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users
is the reason why it shouldn't be done


No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design
decisions is why it shouldn't be done.


So those people that would reply would make wrong 
suggestions/answers/whatever..


Thats a pretty bold comment when one of the main Off The Wall posters 
codes rocket propulsion software for the British Government.



as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to
go in.

I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates,
guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any
package from source using my configuration of choice in under
fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo
deliver that?

Irrelevant conclusion


Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most
users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want
is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of
impossible goals.


People at Gentoo tend to know what they would like, if they suggest 
something that is unobtainable and are given reasons why, 2 things would 
happen:


1. They would have a greater respect for the developers for actually trying.
2. They would have knowlege to be able to suggest an alternative.



It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but
most of the gripers don't vote.

Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it
would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with
the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of
the majority.

It would make a difference in the relations between users and
developers.


Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told sorry,
we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for.


Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say?


I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were
things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all.


That doesn't stop you having your say by contributing...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)

2007-07-19 Thread George Prowse

Mike Doty wrote:

[snip]

get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate.


I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project, 
are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting -project started

2007-07-17 Thread George Prowse

Roy Marples wrote:

On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 11:00 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

How about defining the purpose of all these list with which we'll
soon end up before going ahead and requesting changes?


-dev is just for technical development.
-project is for non technical development of Gentoo.

What is technical development? Well, if your email doesn't have any code
or questions about code then it probably doesn't belong on -dev is is
more suited to another list.

If you feel the urge to email about other things then submit more list
ideas.

So that would mean that welcoming new developers would be on the 
-project list?


Would package removals be on it because it seems to be somewhere in the 
middle?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Donnie Berkholz wrote:

Matthias Langer wrote:
  

no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on
this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is
becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. 



Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us
to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also
benefit other people, and so they use them.

  
That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) 
post I have ever read. You should be ashamed.


Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean they 
dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case then none 
of the current developers would have originally been part of the 
userbase to begin with.


Gentoo is becoming a joke, how many more developers have to leave? How 
many more harmful articles will it take? Users have left in droves and 
you seem to be becoming more and more insular the worse it gets.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] So...

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Wernfried Haas wrote:

On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote:

So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to
debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs
Celcius...

Discuss!


Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with
Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to
Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C +
273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on
real life problems i have to solve.


Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific
0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some
obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average
gentoo-dev poster. :-)

cheers,
Wernfried

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine

tbh, you really need a different one for developers that takes into 
account how far above or below sea level you are because as the air gets 
thinner the mass of the water that is used to regulate their temperature 
would change in relation to the caffiene molecules

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote:

Oh dear.  slight delay in an email list forum?  That's like saying
you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to
wait 30 seconds before you can say anything  In effect you reduce that
person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment.  The
comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by
the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on.


On a mailing list?

We're not talking IRC here.  We're talking mailing lists.

I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the
WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful
input.  Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server
will even pretend that it is.  Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between
posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of
anything.  After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I
am still managing to participate in this conversation.

This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job 
description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could 
just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they 
are even there.


Seeing as most of them are forum mods there could even be a why was I 
blocked? thread in Feedback...


Their decision to forward emails to a -politics (or whatever it was) ML 
would be a great one

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote:
That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at 
large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy 
(which we currently aren't), then so be it.


Exactly.

I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it.  It scratches an itch
that I have.  I like using it personally and also professionally.  I
find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for
myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're
interested in changing things in the same manner as I am.  This is
exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer.

That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers,
will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but
until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on
what I choose to work on myself.

If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they
work on something that interests you, offer to pay them.  Unless they're
your employee, they owe you nothing.

Maybe you should change the Gentoo philosophy: 
http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml


Us, the Gentoo Proletariat, respect the developers because of the great 
work they do for free but that doesn't absolve you of any responsibility 
towards Gentoo, quite the opposite. The Gentoo philosophy and how it 
states the need for Gentoo to accomodate the needs of it's users 
establishes a minimum level of responsibility from the Distro to it's 
userbase so basically stating I do what I want and how I want is not 
in keeping with the way Gentoo was meant to be run and shouldn't be how 
it is being run at this moment in time.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Chrissy Fullam wrote:

Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on
topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything.
If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect
them enough to allow them their own opinion.
The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes.
If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make
alternative suggestions. 


The original proposed idea:
* Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by
non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails
should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the
right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate.
Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for
further action. Devs would be required to be on this list.
* Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a
requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really
isnt development related.

I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no
good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up
with those alternatives. 

Stopping or postponing technical posts on -dev will always be counter 
productive. Just create a topic in another list (-politics sounds a good 
one), forward all further responses there and if necessary create a new 
post to -dev to carry on the original discussion. The people involved in 
the -politics discussion can then carry it on somewhere else.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll
then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a
stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne
never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done
to death or anything, is it?

And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.


Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. 
Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this 
subject. Capiche?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)

2007-07-16 Thread George Prowse

Steve Long wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll
then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a
stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne
never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done
to death or anything, is it?

And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh.


Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. 
Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this 
subject. Capiche?

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08

2007-07-04 Thread George Prowse

Torsten Veller wrote:

Let me paste last year's mail:

| well it's about that time of the year ... time for nominating people 
| for the next Gentoo Council
| 
| for the quick low down:

|  - nominations are from July 1 through July 31
|  - anyone can nominate
|  - only Gentoo devs may be nominated
| 
| so get with the nominating people !
| 
| for the full details, check out the Council homepage:

| http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap6

Have fun and good luck :)


I nominate

wolf31o2
Uberlord
tomk
Johnm
amne
welp
nightmorph
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-11 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600
Ryan Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on
gentoo-project. ;)


And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where
people will actually read it.

And that's why it's a good idea, moving it to a place where it *should* 
be read.


I see two options: put up with it here or move it to another list.

The strange things is, the people that make all the noise don't want it 
moving to another list. That obviously implies that they feel their 
presence on Gentoo will be watered down without having the instant 
ability to turn every discussion into trolling session

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-09 Thread George Prowse

Mike Doty wrote:

George Prowse wrote:

Kumba wrote:

Kumba wrote:

So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
list ourselves.

[snip]

Anyways, thoughts?

Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.

Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba


I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D

just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q


That would be the point of the irony...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread George Prowse

Kumba wrote:

Kumba wrote:


So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the 
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the 
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself 
and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, 
you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this 
list ourselves.

[snip]


Anyways, thoughts?


Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will 
probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.


Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba


I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?

2007-06-07 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 01:08 +0100, George Prowse wrote:

from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml


Look at the Council logs from the CoC being approved and the ones since.
We asked for real guidelines so we could specifically avoid this sort of
problem from happening.

Then the council are to blame for having the CoC readily available under 
their *own* project pages.


It has your's and most of the council's names as reviewers and after 3 
months nothing has been said about it. The lack of activity and where it 
is situated make it look like it is official policy.


All this is immaterial anyway because even if it had been extensively 
discussed at length then the proctors would still have acted the same, 
or would you have preferred that they held a meeting first and then a 
focus group and then a coffee morning before trying to stop a thread 
descending into anarchy? I cant see it would have gone any different to 
1) warning. 2) if ignored then act

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?

2007-06-07 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:15:58 +0100
George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
All this is immaterial anyway because even if it had been extensively 
discussed at length then the proctors would still have acted the

same

If that really were the case, it would just be an even stronger
argument for disbanding them.

You have to be joking, their actions were 100% what they should have 
been: thread was going downhill - they gave a warning - people ignored 
it - they acted. If you dont want to adhere to the rules, dont post to 
the list.



or would you have preferred that they held a meeting first and
then a focus group and then a coffee morning before trying to stop a
thread descending into anarchy?

The thread descended into anarchy because of the proctors.

No, the threat descended into anarchy because of your opportunistic 
nature. Every thread where there is a possibility of getting back at the 
Gentoo heirachy you jump in with both feet and pull your coven in with you.


Trying to get back at various people and groups in Gentoo because you 
feel embarrassed by your exclusion is no way for an adult to act, this 
isn't like carbon trading, you cant offset any good you do with the bad



I cant see it would have gone any different to 1) warning. 2) if
ignored then act

Perhaps if the proctors had discussed things first, they wouldn't have
made two major screwups that resulted in Gentoo losing yet another
developer.

That may have been the case if they acted inappropriately but as I have 
said, a warning and then a 24hr cooling off is all that is needed, the 
thread would have stopped dead then.


You must start to realise that whenever a touchy subject is brought up 
and you intervene the decibel level goes up 10x  by virtue of the fact 
that the pro-Ciaran and anti-Ciaran groups will immediately jump in with 
their voice. If you were really on these lists to help then you would 
keep quiet unless it is a 100% technical post so maybe the best idea is 
for you to teach yourself when to bite your lip.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?

2007-06-07 Thread George Prowse

Alexandre Buisse wrote:

On Thu, Jun  7, 2007 at 12:20:07 +0200, George Prowse wrote:
[...] before trying to stop a thread 
descending into anarchy?


I wish it was descending into anarchy. Which is a highly organized
social system, and doesn't have anything to do with chaos. Anarchy is
just a system where there is no authority which hasn't been freely
accepted (and freely as in you can refuse it without any consequence,
not freely as in you can refuse it but then you won't be part of this
project).

So please, let's pay attention to the meaning of the words we are using.

/Alexandre


Anarchy is when the individual as a law unto himself and there are no 
rules to force him to act appropriately - suitable word for the 
situation, thankyou.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?

2007-06-06 Thread George Prowse

Wulf C. Krueger wrote:

On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote:
[Proctor system]

a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as
has been suggested?


Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. 


Nor do I. Every thread that has gone bad in the last 2 years has been 
because of the same people. Ban them from -dev and there is no need for 
the proctors.


If they weren't banned from the forums as well then they could have been 
directed there. It just goes to show how positive their influence on 
Gentoo is.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?

2007-06-06 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 19:16 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Wulf C. Krueger wrote:

I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear
guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and
what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's
difficult to judge.
The guideline, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to ban people who dont 
abide by the time-outs.


What guideline?  Where is it?  When was it approved by the Council, like
we had said that proctors policy would need to be?



from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml

Consequences

Disciplinary action will be up to the descretion of the proctors. What 
is a proctor? A proctor is an official charged with the duty of 
maintaining good order. If discplinary measures are taken and the 
affected person wishes to appeal, appeals should be addressed to the 
Gentoo Council via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] To prevent conflicts of 
interest, Council members may not perform the duties of a proctor.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24

2007-05-05 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200
Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users


A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay.


Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here,
may I ask? I guess amne is right here.


I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users.


Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors Episode II - Attack of the clones

2007-04-19 Thread George Prowse

Wernfried Haas wrote:

Hi everyone,
I just returned from my trip to Kamino and brought back some new
members for the proctors team:
blackace, jmbsvicetto, marienz, pilla and mark_alec.

All of them have a background in forums/#gentoo/userrel and hopefully
will help in bringing peace to this galaxy.

Luckily for all of us there is no Jar Jar Binks aboard. :-)

cheers,
Wernfried


I thought you said my invite was in the post?

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] *DEVELOPMENT* mail list, right?

2007-04-07 Thread George Prowse

Chris Gianelloni wrote:

On Fri, 2007-04-06 at 09:45 -0700, Ned Ludd wrote:
  

Here is what I'm doing these days..



Let's see.  I'm currently leading the 2007.0 release, which includes
building LiveDVD releases for amd64/x86, LiveCD for alpha/ppc, and doing
the entire PPC release, since Pylon is currently away due to school.

Besides that, I'm coordinating the articles and DVD media for Linux+DVD
magazine for their upcoming Gentoo issue.  I've released new versions of
catalyst (2.0.3) and genkernel (3.4.7) and will likely be releasing
newer versions of both soon.  I have been working on the Catalyst
Reference Manual, which I expect to have ready soon to allow me to
stabilize catalyst 2.0.x and finally put catalyst 1.x to pasture.

  

Damn, and there was me thinking you did the GWN occasionally as well

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Tears of unfathomable sorrow

2007-04-07 Thread George Prowse

Alec Warner wrote:

Much to the joy of many I am now retiring from Gentoo...


It is a pity to see you go, many users like me will be sad to see you leave.

George
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Flourish Conference Reminder

2007-04-01 Thread George Prowse

Samir Faci wrote:
Sorry guys, I didn't think this would be considered spam, I was 
actually hoping some of the gentoo dev, if any are in the area would 
be interesting in participating and representing gentoo in the conference.


Since this is was seen as spam by some, I apologize.

Well this is a list about development...

The forums are probably better suited for you: forums.gentoo.org

George

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Caleb Cushing wrote:


What on earth is going to be a major visible improvement to a
command
line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is going to
realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands: emerge
-u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use
package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental
differences that the average user will notice


How about the speed of search's? the speed of resolving dependancy's? 
how about the speed that it takes to calculate a dependancy listing 
after you've already done it once? portage is SLOW.

So speed...

how about getting it to the point where it could be made to 
incorporate a graphical frontend if wanted.
There are loads, i can name 3 off the top of my head, new ones are 
always popping up in unsupported software in the forums as well.


how about providing me a list of packages that are masked instead of 
making me read and unmask them one at a time.

That pretty much defeats the object of them being masked in the first place

So all you can really come up with is speed? If a power user yourself 
can only come up with speed what is an ordinary user going to think 
of... *sigh*


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:30:11 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  

I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to
get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them.
  
  

You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee
leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be
tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the
best employees (and with it money) and also said employee
knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future.



And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning
publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other
people trying the same thing unsuccessfully?
  
Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 
employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just 
the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills'

I think you're missing a clear view of the facts here...

Incidentally, I'm unsure as to how your analogy applies here. You keep
mentioning 'best employee'. I'm not sure how that fits in.
If i remember, I said one of and also (if i remember correctly) 
flameeyes happened to be head of two herds, a member of the council, had 
more cia commits than any developer and was one of THE most respected 
developers in the whole of Gentoo.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Why I don't think the CoC is a good idea

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Caleb Cushing wrote:


I have no idea if it's possible but if a topic is deemed to be off
topic
then can any further replies with that subject be forwarded
automatically to another address like gentoo-dev-offtopic so they dont
go to gentoo-dev?


I believe you can change the destination based on subject with an mta. 
the question is what does implementing this entail? and being that a 
subject might be re-used in a completely unrelated (to the original 
topic) or be put back on topic how do you decide when to  remove the 
forward.


I think that you would probably just change the subject and tell people. 
A big ascii note saying REPLY TO THIS IN -DEV would do it.


I dunno, it's just a suggestion
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:

On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:19:52 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
  

What on earth is going to be a major visible improvement to a
command line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is
going to realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands:
emerge -u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use 
package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental 
differences that the average user will notice



If you think that that's all a package manager should do, you have a
serious lack of imagination. Most users need or would heavily benefit
from far more. See http://ciaranm.org/show_post/95 for some modest
ideas that have turned out to be useful.
  
All well and good (and I agree that those would be nice) but none that 
today's average Gentoo user is going to notice as a major visible 
improvement. --depclean has improved dramatically so the --uninstall 
will be just another way of doing it.
  
And that really means that portage is no easier/harder than it was 3 
years ago when USE=~x86 emerge foo was consigned to the dustbin



Except that now users have to deal with more like a thousand installed
packages, and have no sane way of doing simple things like:

* Unmasking everything needed to get a particular KDE release in one go

great for power users and devs but again, the average user will see no 
improvement



* Uninstalling a package along with its now-unused dependencies
* Uninstalling a package along with everything depending upon it
  
Yup, i agree with you there, --depclean seem to be mostly working 
properly so that is not so much of a problem but --uninstall-with-deps 
would be great



Sunrise is the canonical example. Also consider the way the forums
are being run (like it or not, the forums are taken by many to be
representative of Gentoo's user base)...
  
  
It seems to most that the forums is the only part of Gentoo that is - 
and always has been - running smoothly



Smoothly is not productively or effectively.
But they do it VERY productively and effectively - look how fast they 
ban the troublemakers and trolls. Maybe they should control the lists...?


Methinks you should sheath your swords for lack of argument on this 
one (Henry V - Act 3 Scene 1)



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Kevin F. Quinn wrote:

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:54 +0100
Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  

ps. If someone wanted to start a gentoo-politics, by all means, go
ahead, just don't expect anyone to read it.



That's not such a bad idea, really. I don't mean creating -politics as
such, but the idea of separating out these long debates from -dev, so
that -dev can focus on technical issues (is this eclass ok, last rites,
how do I do X,Y,Z in ebuilds etc).

When these big debates arise, discussion could be shunted to the
separate list, requiring those who care enough to join the debate, to
join that list, which may help limit the number of people who get
involved.  Perhaps gentoo-discuss.

  

Which is exactly what I suggested ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Ferris McCormick wrote:

On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 00:35 +, George Prowse wrote:
  

Ferris McCormick wrote:


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
snip



Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else
could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a
group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others
have informed us all.



Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again)
as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and
flameeyes' stated reason for leaving...

  
  

snip

It was an ultimatum.  He goes or I go, it was not blackmail.  FFS, can 
we please stop calling it blackmail?



As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called
it blackmail.  Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an
ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed.
  
So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a 
worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite 
your face.





You misunderstand.  The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and
say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one
way or the other.
Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single 
problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want 
and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the 
choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the 
future.


Having spent 5 years as a manager of a Health club and having a 
qualification in Sport and Recreational Management means I know what I 
am talking about. It is far easier and better to reprimand one of the 
people when the other is no longer there, it stops either of them 
thinking that they won. Both lose - one leaves by his own accord and 
the other is reprimanded so they are both equal and that stops either of 
them thinking that they have been treated differently which is key to a 
situation like this.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:

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Steve Long wrote:
  

George Prowse wrote:



Stephen Bennett wrote:
  

I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid
of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them.
  


You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave
and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in
the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees
(and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he
stands for the future.

It is called man-management and people skills, something that is
severely lacking in Gentoo at the moment
  

Mate that's the first time in ages that I've truly agreed with what you've
written. I think I need a lie-down ;)




Fortunately some people value integrity above what you call man-management and 
people skills.

Marijn
Thats the whole point about why it is lacking: using man management and 
people skills you can keep your integrity

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?

2007-03-15 Thread George Prowse

Stephen Becker wrote:


 And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning
 publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other
 people trying the same thing unsuccessfully?

Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not
let 2
employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just
the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' 



Seeing as you guys are discussing me, I suppose I should correct the 
flawed thinking so you can actually get something right.  Your logic 
is completely flawed because it assumes that my reaction would have 
been any different if I didn't have some sort of shiny gentoo 
developer tag associated with me.  I would still have told Diego 
exactly how I felt about unreasonably abusing an arch team member who 
was simply trying to do his job had I been a developer or not.   So 
seriously, stop assuming my impending retirement had anything to do 
with this.  I would still react loudly to folks pulling a similar 
stunt now that I *am* retired.


-Steve
That is immaterial, no-one is discussing what you or Diego did before 
the situation came up

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