Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: UEFI secure boot and Gentoo
The Reg has a story on this from a blog post by Red Hat. It may be worth a read: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/01/18/windows_8_linux_secure_boot/
Re: [gentoo-dev] A friendly reminder: Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev
On 22/06/2012 07:40, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 21 Jun 2012 23:01:15 +0200 Michał Górny mgo...@gentoo.org wrote: Just a short note as it seems some confusion arises lately: Ciaran McCreesh is not a Gentoo dev and his words don't represent the position of Gentoo development team. Right. Doesn't that make me more important than you? https://lwn.net/Articles/501815/ To Exherbo? Probably
Re: [gentoo-dev] Using Jabber for developer communication
On 10/04/2011 12:00, Dmitry Dzhus wrote: When will Gentoo switch over to glorious and progressive Jabber from outdated and obsolete IRC? Gentoo will always look towards the future for ways to communicate. Instead of using a currently popular format such as Jabber we are trying to predict the curve so that we dont have to switch from another obsolete format in 5 years time. Currently, research has told us that that the best format for communication is MSN
Re: [gentoo-dev] Quantity of open bugs
On 10/03/2011 20:25, Kevin F. Quinn wrote: Hi all, I was nosing through bugzilla, and noticed: * Number of open bugs is greater than 14,000 * Number of open bugs untouched for more than 2 years - well over 2000. * Number of open bugs untouched between 1 and 2 years - well over 2000. * Number of open bugs untouched between 6 months and 1 year - well over 2000. * Number of open bugs untouched between 3 months and 6 months - over 2000 The winner is bug #78406, which hasn't been touched for over 2240 days - over 6 years - at the time of writing. I would guess these old untouched bugs aren't actually going to be touched, ever - a lot simply won't be relevant any more for one reason or another. All they're doing is cluttering up bugzilla. So I'd like to suggest a drastic, perhaps controversial action. Mark all bugs that haven't been touched for over (say) 3 months as Resolved:Wontfix, with a polite comment saying that it is closed due to lack of resource amongst the volunteer developer community. I'm sure a suitable bugzilla script wiz could do that relatively easily. Users who care about such bugs can still comment on them, or talk directly to the assigned dev to highlight it's still a relevant issue to them, or even to supply a solution against the current tree. It could be an ongoing policy, in which case, users who care about them can keep bugs alive simply by posting useful updates to the bug, describing how the issue still applies to a new revision for example. Just a thought from an old ex-dev... Kev. Why not give userrel a list of 2000 bugs from 6 years old to 6 months old to elcit help from the community? A dev could look why a user marked it cantfix e.g. refers to outdated version of baselayout and tick it off the list so it no longer appears. G
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Git commit mails/CIA.vc notifications
On 04/02/2011 22:41, Duncan wrote: Jeroen Roovers posted on Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:08:24 +0100 as excerpted: On Fri, 04 Feb 2011 03:26:16 +0100 Christian Ruppertid...@gentoo.org wrote: Hey guys, Only half of people? :) That's just /begging/ a reply. No. It wasn't. Please stop filling up my inbox. Yes I know what the next reply is.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [warning] the bug queue has 118 bugs
On 28/12/2010 21:11, Rich Freeman wrote: On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 1:51 PM, Jeroen Roovers j...@gentoo.org mailto:j...@gentoo.org wrote: On Fri, 17 Dec 2010 23:31:28 +0100 Maciej Mrozowski reave...@gmail.com mailto:reave...@gmail.com wrote: Well, before I became developer, I had a quite unproductive discussion on IRC with Jeroen on that matter (jer opting for status quo and telling me I have no idea what bug wrangling is :P) I have no idea what you are talking about. I'd like to turn this discussion into a more productive direction (let's wrangle bugs, and not argue over who said what to who when). First, I'd like to say thanks to those who put a great deal of care into bug-wrangling, and I think all will agree that Jer does a LOT in this regard. It is very clear to me that when bugs get assigned to me that they've generally been well-triaged and I'm sure that a lot of cruft gets pruned before I even get an email. That said, part of me wants to think aloud about whether we're over-investing in triaging bugs in the queue and this is leading to the queue getting out of hand. The problem I see with our current bug-wrangling procedures (as documented on the official site) is that they seem a bit daunting to me. I see this problem at work all the time - procedures that are very complex either need to be an assigned job, or they need to be simplified. If they remain complex but free-for-all then nobody wants to touch them, since nobody gets yelled at individually if they don't step in, but if they step in and mess up suddenly they have egg on their face. Something that might help would be a one touch bug queue (think Getting Things Done). Wrangler looks at bug, and bug ends up in one of two categories IMMEDIATELY: 1. Bug has required info and can be assigned to a maintainer. Go ahead and assign. 2. Bug is missing required info or seems vague. Immediately add a comment stating what is needed, with link to website with bug submission procedure that wasn't followed, and resolve invalid. Comment should welcome submitter to re-open with the required info. This gets stale bugs out of the queue without a lot of fuss. It also means that everything in the queue needs attention and nobody spends time reading a bug just to find out that it is stuck and needs no attention by a wrangler. Also - I think we need to make other forms of triage a best-effort sort of activity. If a wrangler wants to try to triage a bug they should be welcome to try. If a wrangler notices a dup, they are welcome to handle accordingly. If a wrangler misses a dup or doesn't do triage, that is fine too, as long as they either resolve invalid or assign. That does mean a bit more bugspam for downstream devs, but it is pretty easy for me to spot dups for the packages I'm most familiar with, and it is much harder for a wrangler to spot them across the entire tree. The overall goal is to make wrangling simple, but still a value-add. We can leave room for those who want to do more. If we end up with a big pool of serious wranglers they can just post on -dev saying that they've got things under control and then those less serious about it can step out and allow for more triage. When the wranglers get underwater everybody else can step in and quickly clean up. I guess the question is whether the resulting shorter queue and lower latency is worth the tradeoff in having package maintainers get a few extra bugs that might have been avoided in triage. I'd be interested in Jer's perspective on how many bugs get squashed during triage. Thoughts? Rich If it was just a case of checking if the right info was there then it could be done by a few reasonably-Gentoo-savvy volunteers who check the list a couple of times a day. Otherwise you're pretty much adding in just another step in the process which seems like the opposite of what you are trying to accomplish. G
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2010/2011 - Nominations are now open
On 05/06/2010 01:00, Torsten Veller wrote: Hello fellow developers and users. ... I'd like to nominate Amne, dsd and Antarus G
Re: [gentoo-dev] About libpng-1.4 handling
On 11/05/2010 04:52, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Monday 10 May 2010 23:10:48 Markos Chandras wrote: provide a user friendly way to migrate to the new libpng without the need to spend so many hours digging around on which packages to rebuild. if you're digging around then clearly you havent done the obvious and run revdep-rebuild ? that is pretty user-friendly. Samuli is right though ... this isnt really something that can be reverted without breaking things just as much. either help out with the problem (see the open bug report), or add yourself to the cc list and wait. harping on people only serves to annoy. -mike I have run revdep-rebuild about 30 times and I still can't fix it. revdep-rebuild does not fix it and libpng needs to have some serious action before it goes stable because I booted into, basically a completely broken machine because I had to stop a large upgrade on the previous emerge (~300 packages) in the middle.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 10/04/2010 19:04, Vincent Launchbury wrote: On 04/10/10 11:25, William Hubbs wrote: Yes, it does. However, I would tend to question how practical their audio captcha is. Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it. Just for reference, I tried 15 different sound clips and got 5 right. 9 were completely incomprehensible, 1 was fuzzy, and the other 5 were quite clear. I'd agree that accessibility is important, but if a better solution doesn't end up working out, ReCaptcha should at least provide access for blind users, albeit inefficiently. I was just at Microsoft's site for the hotfix download to fix the Advanced Local Procedure Call problem in Server 2008R2 and you need to enter a captcha to get the link sent to your email address. Just as I was about to enter it I thought I would listen to it just for the hell of it... I couldn't understand a thing, it sounded like two ferrets fighting infront of a de-tuned radio. Whatever system the wiki and the forums have we better make it sure it is the right one because there would be nothing worse than going to a site and finding you can't use it because of a rubbish captcha system.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 12:32, Ben de Groot wrote: On 12 April 2010 12:28, Roy Bamfordneddyseag...@gentoo.org wrote: Last time I looked, his about page complies with our trade mark requirements. But ONLY his about page. Our name and logo guidelines state this needs to happen on each page: the website clearly states, on each page, that the project is no official Gentoo project by labelling itself as a news site, fan site, unofficial site or community site See http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/name-logo.xml Instead it labels itself as the Gentoo Wiki or the Gentoo Linux Wiki, suggesting to somebody who is unaware of the situation that it is an official project. If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 12/04/2010 14:22, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:49, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/04/2010 14:17, Arun Raghavan wrote: On 12 April 2010 18:43, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.comwrote: [...] If you are arguing that the name is ambiguous then I think you are wrong. Gentoo knows about the unofficial wiki and knows it's mission is to help Gentoo and not to hinder it. Gentoo hardly makes a habit of Apple-like litigation when trying to protect it's logo. I think the argument is that the wiki is not always accurate, and if perceived as the official documentation, can put is in bad light. There is *always* a chance of that, official or otherwise Which the Wiki team should really be addressing before making a world-editable wiki. A simple warning should suffice: While the Gentoo community takes a large amount of care to keep the wiki's information correct, problems like deprecation of features, misinformed users and vandalism can and will always be a problem with the wiki format. If you see a problem please feel free to fix it, notify a member of the developer team or send an email to w...@gentoo.org Also adding a notice like Gentoo takes no responsibility for when you b0rk your box by setting the wrong CTARGET somewhere would be good. Those two should cover all the bases.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 10/04/2010 05:10, William Hubbs wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: Does mediawiki have captcha ability? Yes, there are a number of solutions for that. I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here unless you provide an audio solution as well. Otherwise, you will affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are currentlylocked out of the forums. http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362 Thanks, while we are on the subject, can tomk or whoever is the head forums techie these days fix up an accessibility suitable system for the forums? It has been six months since that bug was opened.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 10/04/2010 16:25, William Hubbs wrote: On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 03:06:57PM +0300, Dror Levin wrote: On Sat, Apr 10, 2010 at 07:10, William Hubbswilli...@gentoo.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 01:19:32AM +0200, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 April 2010 20:56, George Prowsegeorge.pro...@gmail.com wrote: Does mediawiki have captcha ability? Yes, there are a number of solutions for that. ??I realize I am very late on this thread, but please do not go here ??unless you provide an audio solution as well. ??Otherwise, you will ??affectively lock blind users out of the wiki, just as they are ??currentlylocked out of the forums. http://bugs.gentoo.org/284362 We are planning to use ReCaptcha which, as far as I known, provides audio. Please correct me if I'm wrong or if that isn't enough. Yes, it does. However, I would tend to question how practical their audio captcha is. Go to www.captcha.net and try the demo a few times and see how much luck you have solving audio captchas from it. Is there a better system?
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote: On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages. The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC] Gentoo Wiki Project
On 09/04/2010 18:24, Zeerak Mustafa Waseem wrote: On Fri, Apr 09, 2010 at 06:02:40PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: On 09/04/2010 13:38, Ben de Groot wrote: On 9 April 2010 13:26, Guy Fontaineguy.fonta...@videotron.qc.ca wrote: There are things I know about Gentoo Linux and I'm pleased to share my knowledge with others as well as I'm glad to learn from others. I'm not a Gentoo dev and I neither have plan nor wish to be. My feeling is that Gentoo Wiki Project is just but another occasion for debating rules and politics. Reading some messages from some people I feel like I'm not welcome because I'm not a member of a group of selected people. Don't be dismayed by negative remarks, or a few naysayers who are not even part of the Gentoo Wiki Project. Any user (or dev) with constructive input is welcome. And as you volunteered, you are part of the project. Cheers, I still dont understand people's problems with this. Several devs have said they've wanted one for years, it would be a great place to review documentation before going in the official documentation, it's a great place to discuss and collaborate on future dev handbook pages. The official wiki could and *should* work together with the unofficial wiki because they complement eachother. The unofficial wiki isn't going to want detailed OpenRC documentation and the official wiki isn't going to want how to set up FreeDOOM on it. Really? I understood it as the wiki being an all-purposes wiki, meaning users could (would and should) create articles on how to get some application running or how to get some setting working, and the developers will have their own section, so to speak, where they can collaborate on various projects where a wiki would be an asset. It seems to me from the discussion here on the list that it is to centralize documentation (- the official docs), so that gentoo can point to the wiki and say If it's not in our docs, maybe it's in the wiki. I may have mistaken the actual purpose of the wiki, but then by all means, correct me :-) I see it as a collaboration piece, something to bridge the gap between developers and users. Users can create pages detailing certain facets of Gentoo and it may get to be included in the documentation on gentoo.org. Some documentation is unfit for an official wiki but that doesn't mean that the information doesn't need to be there for users, that is where the official and unofficial wiki should work together .
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 05/04/2010 17:07, Jon Portnoy wrote: On Mon, Apr 05, 2010 at 08:50:49AM +0300, Eray Aslan wrote: Just replying randomly. On 05.04.2010 04:33, Tobias Heinlein wrote: I think this is a good starting point to get rid of the some important questions are too hard to answer dilemma that can be implemented relatively fast. On top of that I like Sebastian's idea to order the quizzes by difficulty -- this means just ordering by the categories I just mentioned would be sufficient: 1 first, then 2, then 3. I am not against this idea but frankly, I do not understand what is so demotivating about the ebuild quiz. If you get demotivated because of a single exam, perhaps the problem is with the motivation and not with the exam itself. I took the published quiz just for the fun of it and to see where I missed. It is not that long. Agreed... I've been following this discussion with mixed feelings. When we originally began using the quiz system the idea was simply to try to force new developers to RTFM -- and I was not such a fan of the entire concept (as I recall, the quizzes were a suggestion from Daniel). As it turns out, the quiz system has repeatedly proven itself useful in another way: developers who whine/bitch/moan and are hesitant to even attempt to complete the quizzes often turn out to be bitchy, unmotivated, or unpleasant developers. I don't want to name any names, but I've seen this often. IMO, those boring too much like high school quizzes serve one extremely valuable function: finding out up front who's a team player (or at least willing to do something mildly unpleasant for the Greater Good) If that's causing potential devs to drop out... perhaps the system is working as it should? :) That assumes the system is working perfectly and the whole fact that we are having this discussion would go against that. From what i've read in the community, lots of people would have no problems helping out maintaining packages, they just don't want the baggage that comes with it. You could say they're lazy or they're not the type of developers you want but at the end of the day they're just different developers, most of whom probably just want to make sure the packages they like are in the tree and updated.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Is Gentoo dying?
If you want to gauge the feeling in the community there are a couple of threads in the forums. Currently this answer seems to be typical of the general consensus when asked what they could do to help Gentoo/become a developer: http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-p-6230439.html#6230439
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 04/04/2010 20:33, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Sun, 4 Apr 2010 17:23:54 +0200 Ben de Grootyng...@gentoo.org wrote: ... ... GuideXML is only easy if you are used to xml or html. Wikimarkup is only easy if you are used to it as well. The difference is that with mediawiki all you have to do is press a button to get your italics, headers, lists and whatever else - making the chance having documentation written a lot higher.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 03/04/2010 14:40, Ben de Groot wrote: On 3 April 2010 13:33, Richard Freemanri...@gentoo.org wrote: I really think that the Gentoo recruitment process needs improvement. Right now it seems like a LOT of effort is required both to become a Gentoo dev and to help somebody become a Gentoo dev. That means we have great people, but not many of them. I agree. So what can we do to improve this process? I myself am not fond of the quizzes, and from what I've seen most recruits find them tedious as well. It can be quite demotivating, maybe because it reminds one too much of highschool or something. I took a long time myself to finish them, and that wouldn't have been necessary, as my mentors ensured me I was ready to become a dev. And I see the same thing happening with some of my own recruits. They can be ready, but just find the quizzes a chore. So I think we need to rethink how to do this. What I have found very helpful is to have my recruits working on actual ebuilds. The sunrise project is ideally qualified to mold ebuild editors into shape. Working on official overlays such as qting-edge and/or doing proxy maintenance is also very helpful. Recruiters (with some additional manpower) could make a list of technical issues that recruits need to be aware of, and then gather a number of ebuilds that display these problems and let recruits correct some of these, under guidance of their mentors. This may possibly be more fun and closer to the actual work that is required of developers. Of course this doesn't address the organizational side of things, so we need to come up with something else for that. Another problem I see is that our documentation seems to be scattered all over the place. I propose that we make at least one portal page for (prospective) developers that will link them to all the resources they might need. It also means our existing documentation needs to be brought and kept up to date. Are there any other ideas on how to improve our recruitment process? I suggested a while ago that you should have recruitment drives and recruitment days. Set aside a day where a few devs can answer any questions about what it takes to be a developer - the skills required, the time that needs to be set aside, the behavior expected and goals that developers aspire to. Set up some threads on the forums, a channel on irc, a list like gentoo-recruitment and a FAQ on the front page of the website. Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited knowlege to help out If you build it, they will come
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] recruitment process
On 03/04/2010 15:05, Petteri Räty wrote: On 04/03/2010 04:53 PM, George Prowse wrote: Armed with a list of where developers are spread too thinly, a willingness to answer questions (no matter how stupid you believe them to be) and some prior organisation then i see no reason why Gentoo wouldn't get an immediate influx of at least 20 well-qualified developers and more that are willing to give their time and limited knowlege to help out http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/ I don't know if developers know that this page is autogenerated from individual project pages these days so it's easy for any developer to get stuff there. Looking at that page it seems clear that that is not a comprehensive list. Maybe if all herds posted who and what they require like this: Java Herd 2 people needed - Essential: Java knowlege Recommended - Javascript and ebuild writing If no-one is willing to put a plan forward then I might acquiesce to do it.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [Gentoo Phoenix] an official Gentoo wiki
On 03/04/2010 18:40, AllenJB wrote: On 03/04/10 14:40, Dror Levin wrote: On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 16:19, Ben de Grootyng...@gentoo.org wrote: 2 - maintainers === Who is volunteering for maintaining the wiki? We need editors and moderators, people who look out for quality control and take care of spam removal. So let's get together a team. I'm sure if we ask on the forums we'll get some users interested as well. I volunteer. Spam shouldn't be that much of an issue if editing is restricted to registered users, but it is a good idea to have a team of moderators similar to the one that exists for the forums (of course users can take part of it as well as developers). Most of the spam on gentoo-wiki.com comes from registered accounts. Requiring registration does not stop most wiki spam. Very little of the spam comes in from unregistered editors. On gentoo-wiki.com we currently use a combination of anti-spam tools, which seems to work best. The main 2, from a day-to-day administration view are the url blacklist and manual removal of spam and associated accounts. You could require email authentication first, but I believe this is unlikely to reduce spam - creating a setup that automatically deals with account verification emails is trivial and throwaway accounts are too easy to get hold of. In addition I believe it would reduce the amount of positive contribution more than it reduces spam - I believe people often want to make quick, small corrections / additions and telling them to come back later is going to be the same as telling them go away. I would highly recommend using MediaWiki as, at least from my experience, it's the most prevalent of the wiki setups available. While this may bring some disadvantages (number of spam attempts (tho I'm nottotally convinced you'll get less than any other web form out there), etc), it also brings the advantages of being well developed with a wide variety of plugins, lots of wiki syntax guides / tutorials you can point users to and a wide userbase with existing knowledge of the syntax. AllenJB Does mediawiki have captcha ability?
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote: It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list. Also, if python3 is marked as stable, people will assume it is safe to switch to. That's what stable means. Back to my hole. Dale :-) :-) It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything newest, highest and shiniest.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Marking bugs for bugday?
On 01/03/2010 22:19, Ben de Groot wrote: On 1 March 2010 22:17, Ioannis Aslanidisaslani...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Great ideas! The teams should send the list of bugs, with each bug filling a skeleton similar to the following: * Ticket number. * Title. * Clear, easy to understand, short description of what we want to delegate to our users. * Topic of the task (as in networking, C/C++, python, ebuild, etc.). * Difficulty of the task. * Detailed step-by-step description of the task. This will not work. You need to keep things really simple for our devs. I don't see anybody but the most dedicated ones, who also happen to have a lot of time on their hands, fill out such a detailed form. I'd say let devs just nominate bugs, either by adding BugDay to the keywords field or something similar, or by passing the bugday team a list of bug numbers. Then the bugday team can sort these and see if any instructions are needed. They could always ask the involved devs/teams for more info when necessary. Cheers, You don't need to make it compulsory to fill out those fields and if just 1 out of every 10 or 20 bugs gets that filled then it is still a big leap forward. Or... Ask for a dev whose whole job is to fill out those forms. I'm sure there are plenty of non-coders out there who would be willing to do it, even a team!
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: 2009.0 profiles
Mike Frysinger wrote: ... Why not tie the the thing that makes Gentoo unique and one of the major reasons why users use it to the version numbers - Portage. We had 1.2, then 1.4 then 2004.0 and if i'm not mistaken portage is at 2.1 currently. Tie it in and we have 2.2 (currently masked) next. Add release candidates along the way and everyone is happy. But i'm sure there is a million reasons why this is wrong... Bring on the wrath. George
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009.0 profiles
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Frysinger wrote: On Friday 28 August 2009 16:27:18 Sebastian Pipping wrote: Mike Frysinger wrote: 10.0 is retarded How would you like the problem to be addressed? we already have a simple logical version system. 2009.0 is the next step. -mike I think 2.0 sounds good -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkqYeagACgkQCt8MOSeAf9rNXQCePeRtsqNeh7vIhuplYx0Q57nx NdcAn3lHv8mqSxPy3MtHZkUBMnX+lsyc =rl+C -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections
Wulf C. Krueger wrote: I think it would be in the best interest of both Exherbo and Gentoo to elect gentoofan23, betelgeuse, dev-zero, peper, calchan and dertobi123 to the Gentoo Council. Why is Exherbo's interests anything to do with Gentoo's? Does this happen with Sabayon or SystemRescueCd or any other Gentoo-based distro? This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev- zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council meeting. If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him to speak on the board of a hospital
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections
Alistair Bush wrote: As our closest relative ( of any distro ) You mean apart from all the other Gentoo based distros?
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:31:43 +0100 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: This strengthening bridge of understanding can be seen in dev- zero's move to appoint ciaranm as his proxy for today's council meeting. If a doctor loses his right to practice medicine you dont allow him to speak on the board of a hospital Coming from you, George, that's rather rich... Also, I would like to remind you that the Council's decision was everything to do with the rules not allowing a non-developer to proxy (a claim which has yet to be substantiated), and nothing to do with the attempts of a small number of malcontents that anything involving me, Paludis or Exherbo is so amazingly evil that it must be entirely ignored. I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list will endear yourself to everyone. Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a developer again. Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is the wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing means that you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not only Gentoo but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your trolling on the lists and your banning from the forums). If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join the exherbo council?
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2009 Council Elections
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 28 Jun 2009 20:46:27 +0100 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: I'm sure getting personal about subjects on a Gentoo mailing list will endear yourself to everyone. Uh, isn't that exactly what you're doing? Nope, I never mentioned anything personal about you, in fact I can't remember mentioning your name at all. Thinking logically for a second, if you really cared about Gentoo you would have tried your best to be good and nice in the... I dunno, 4 years(?) since your ejection and then worked your way up to being a developer again. Why? I'm interested in getting things done, not in jumping through arbitrary hoops and starting yet another silly Gentoo politics flamewar. You choose to be in these flamewars. As I stated, if you really cared then at some time since your exclusion you would have worked on Gentoo and kept your nose clean, people would have had no choice but to accept you had noting but Gentoo's best interest at heart. Trying to get into Gentoo by proxy (heh, see what I did there?) is the wrong way and spending the last 4 years doing the wrong thing means that you have done nothing to warrant you being included in not only Gentoo but it's heirachy (and this is without mentioning your trolling on the lists and your banning from the forums). I'm not trying to get into Gentoo by proxy at all. I shall remind you that this was Tiziano's request and decision, not mine, and that I was merely helping Gentoo out by carrying out a request from a Council member. You're not stupid, you knew exactly what would happen and you let all the flames come instead of being humble and suggesting that it wasn't the best idea. If you succeed are you going to invite Patrick and Plasmaroo to join the exherbo council? That's not my decision. I don't have anything to do with the running of Exherbo. However, if Patrick or Plasmaroo have useful contributions for Exherbo, I would be happy to ensure that those contributions get applied. Don't take that too literally, it was only meant as an example. Again, this is not about me or Exherbo. It's about the Council's unsubstantiated claim that the rules prohibit a Council member from selecting a non-developer as a proxy. If you select a non-developer as a proxy then it degrades what it means to be a developer. Would you be happy if you local MP got his granny to vote in parliament when he was on holiday?
Re: [gentoo-dev] The fallacies of GLEP55
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 14 May 2009 20:06:51 +0200 Patrick Lauer patr...@gentoo.org wrote: You need to know the EAPI to parse the ebuild to find the EAPI Obviously that's not true, because somehow we manage at the moment. And if one does a small restriction (which doesn't restrict current behaviour because all in-tree ebuilds currently fit within this limitation) it becomes trivial again: Let EAPI be defined as (the part behind the = of) the first line of the ebuild starting with EAPI= Uh, so horribly utterly and obviously wrong. inherit foo EAPI=4 where foo is both a global and a non-global eclass that sets metadata. If you're looking for a formally correct alternative that works in the way you suggest, I already provided one, and you already read about it -- and it still doesn't solve the problems that 55 does. It's slower! The theory here being that a stat() is needed if it is encoded in the filename, but a stat() followed by an open() to parse it from the file. Well then, just cache it! You can use the mtime to check the cache validity (which means you do a stat() anyway, so with glep55 caching it is actually slower!), and then you have to parse the ebuild anyway for the other metadata. So the extra cost of finding the EAPI is ... what extra cost? The only case when it is actually slower is when there is no cache because then you have to parse the ebuild. But that degenerate case will only hit some overlay users and people like developers that can wait .3 seconds longer. And ... uhm ... to extract other metadata like DEPENDS you'll have to parse it anyway. Where on earth are you getting the idea that GLEP 55 makes things slower? The only difference to the code with GLEP 55 is in checking file extensions against a slightly larger set of strings, which is nowhere near a measurable increase in anything. You're claiming that checking for a suffix of either .ebuild-4 or .ebuild against a fixed string is in any way relevant, which is obviously trolling. Having GLEP55 allows us to add GLEP54 without issues! Yeah, uhm, the live-ness of an ebuild is an attribute. How about we add it to metadata, as we should for all metadata? Define a key, I don't know ... LIVE ? LIVE=true. There. No need to fix the filename. And now stop mixing up issues because it is highly confusing! There is no existing version ordering solution that accurately represents upstream scm branches. A few words in closing - We can encode all the relevant info in the first line of the ebuild starting with EAPI= No we can't. That's *obviously* completely wrong. The overhead of parsing out this value for all ebuilds in the tree has been timed at ~2 CPU-seconds by solar. It's negligible. Those of us who have been measuring this have been discarding CPU time entirely, since it's utterly irrelevant. That you bring CPU time into this shows you've been deliberately ignoring everything we've said. We all know you're not stupid enough to believe what you've been posting or ignorant enough to miss the point so badly. So please stop pretending -- this issue would have gone through a long time ago were it not for you and your ilk deliberately pretending to be retarded so you can raise straw man arguments against it rather than addressing the issues at hand. You're doing both yourself and everyone else a huge disfavour by acting dumb and assuming everyone else is going to play along with that. Having countered those four points I guess you agree with the other five then. Over 50% success rate (by your definition) is hardly being ignorant or trolling
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Thilo Bangert wrote: to me, the above two contradictory viewpoints are the essence of the apparent and real decline in Gentoo activity. The two are just not compatible with each other and there is no clear guidance on to which of the two should be followed. in the one corner we have the 'Daniel Robbins' corner, which stands for an open and inclusive process, which favors new comers, wants fast progress regardsless of the technical limitations of that process. also, being nice is more important than being correct. one central repository is where all development should happen - this is were we came from. in the other corner is the gentoo leftover of the exherbo fork: the few people how continue to work on Gentoo but generally prefer the direction of Exherbo. technical elitism, explicitism and formal standardization are their trade. being correct is more important than good intentions. overlays or multiple repositories help achieve a hierarchy of not-good-to- supported ebuilds. we are halfway here... it would be good if we collectively could agree on some of these issues, in order to move forward. as with many of the other technical discussions which lead to nowhere, it's more important that there is a clear direction, than into which direction we are headed. maybe we need a debian project leader position - or a council, which is sensitive to the internal devide among developers and gives clear directions. if the above offends you, please take a walk before replying. it may sound inflammtory - its not meant to be. thanks Thilo People have been trying to resolve the situation you described for a long time. Working within it and minimising the negative effects of such stark contrasts in views has been one of the challenges of Gentoo in recent times. An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works. I doubt a figurehead would make any difference. They would need nerves of steel and would have to not care about making unpopular decisions and it would be difficult to take anyone from the current crop of [excellent] developers because it seems that everyone has taken sides already so immediately any decision was made an argument about bias would be likely come up G
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 11 May 2009 23:17:32 +0100 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: An equilibrium seems to have been reached which currently works. An equilibrium has been reached, agreed, but that it works is up for debate. There is a strong argument to be made that preserving the equilibrium will keep Gentoo the way it is now -- delivering at best the same user experience now that it was several years ago, in an increasingly difficult and more competitive environment. Well, anything is better than the Romeo and Juliet-esque factions at war a few years ago; as you and plasmaroo could probably attest to.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Arttu V. wrote: On 5/7/09, Duncan 1i5t5.dun...@cox.net wrote: There's no reason that can't be done via email, and throwing in some live commit feed action might make it a bit interesting. =:^) I'm sensing a sort of a patches welcome attitude from the crowd, i.e., not falling for a hard sell of just the idea. And as it stands, they may also be familiar with your emails from, e.g., gentoo-user list? :) Maybe you have to prove the functionality of your email-based processes over irc-oriented ones by, e.g., forking gentoo into duncantoo (or whatever, duncantoo.org appears to be available) and running things successfully on email for a while? ;) Oh good lord, what have I started here... I can see that being as successful as the Norweigan referee in last nights Chelsea v Barcelona game
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
Markos Chandras wrote: On Tuesday 05 May 2009 19:26:00 Thomas Anderson wrote: On Tue, May 05, 2009 at 05:06:43PM +0300, Markos Chandras wrote: On Tuesday 05 May 2009 16:50:47 Richard Freeman wrote: Arch teams seem to be generally doing a good job keeping up with STABLEREQs on the major archs - if you use a minor arch that isn't as well supported I'm sure we'd be happy to have more help. Arch teams, according to their project pages, are in a good shape. Major arches have enough people ( assuming that the project pages are up2date ) The amd64 project page at least is definitely not. We have a ton of slackers. I'd venture to say most in the project don't actively work on amd64 at all. We are handling the load fairly well though. Thomas /me is listing all the reported issues Really? I was thinking about joining amd64 project but when I visited the project page , I saw like 25 people listed as developers. So I thought that Woow,there are plenty of dudes here, so there is no urgent need for new developers right now This is a major issue as well. If the project pages are way out of date, how do we expect people to understand our real needs on manpower etc. Cleaning and updating the project pages once a while is not that difficult. It takes about 15' ( and a couple of e-mails to inform the slackers ). If we really (?) want to run a recruitment campaign, our web presence but be quite active and responsible. Is all this help needed stuff that ordinary users can help out with? If so dont people go and ask for help in the forums?
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Thomas Sachau wrote: George Prowse schrieb: Thomas Sachau wrote: For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-) So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new developer. I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. Such a campaign would need quite some time and i dont have this free time. So if anyone is willing to do the needed work, i can try to help a bit, but cannot take the work and time myself. The only thing i can do and currently do whenever possible is pointing people to the sunrise project and helping them there. And thats what i did with my mail. I also fear that any sustained campaign would be bogged down in Gentoo's red tape.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 04 May 2009 21:47:08 +0100 George Prowse george.pro...@gmail.com wrote: If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. That's not how it works -- we know this from last time Gentoo recruited a whole load of people without verifying their abilities. With lots of new developers, what little time skilled developers already have ends up being spent fixing all the screwups made by people who were only recruited to make up numbers. Gentoo needs better developers, not more developers. And where did i say their abilities wouldn't be verified? Come on now, you'll have to do better than that. In terms of figures a conservative estimate would be 25% wouldn't have the necessary skills and another 25% would be unsuitable.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Retiring
Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G
[gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Thomas Sachau wrote: Mario Fetka schrieb: On Monday, 4. May 2009 19:06:12 George Prowse wrote: Peter Faraday Weller wrote: Hi Thanks, welp Sad to hear it mate. As the person who did your first install for you (i think) I think you will be missed. I am quite surprised about what you said about the state of things because i've got the distinct impression from others that Gentoo has been improving in the past 12 months. About the lack of the developers, something I proposed about 3 years ago might be applicable: has Gentoo ever thought about doing a Dev Day in much the same way as the Bug Days? Advertise a day where people can come and have a chat with developers and get coached because there is a vast amount of people and knowledge out there and I never see anything about Gentoo wanting people. If you book them, they will come. G and I would be the first to come Mario For those, who can work with IRC and are interested in working with ebuilds, there is already an option: Join #gentoo-dev-help or even better #gentoo-sunrise and read the documentation from the topic. The Sunrise Overlay (with the #gentoo-sunrise IRC channel) is open for everyone willing to learn and contribute to it. Even normal users can get access, learn how to create ebuilds, how to improve them and how to maintain them. As a starting point, this is a central overlay, where ebuilds are maintained, that dont get a developer as maintainer because of missing manpower. Additionally, all contributors learn the ebuild development work themselves. And if you are willing to learn and do continuously good work, there is a good chance that you may level up to a developer yourself someday. You want an example? This was my way to become a full Gentoo developer. ;-) So at least for ebuild maintainence, there are good starting points (probably other projects also have training grounds like the java or kde herds), the bigger problem may be the communication between potential new developers and the current developer base and our options to become a new developer. I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Training points for users interested in helping out with ebuild development
Mounir Lamouri wrote: George Prowse wrote: I think you are missing the point. If you sit and wait for them to join you will always be understaffed. Go on a big dev drive! Announce it all over all the Gentoo's normal communication channels and other generic linux places! Email some linux magazines, talk to distrowatch, message some large LUGs. Get people talking about it. Whatever happens, dont just sit on your hands. Tell the users that Gentoo needs them and that they can make a difference! If you make it a big and special occasion which is planned correctly with a sufficient number of current developers who are willing to walk people through how and what it means to be a Gentoo Developer then the influx could create a new backbone of new developers who will hopefully be here for years to come. I agree with you. Gentoo is not doing enough publicity on needed help (I sincerely think the related page in gentoo.org is out of date) and we can read too often in gentoo.org recruitment pages that user should not ask and should wait to be asking. I'm not sure most devs are looking to users as potential new devs. It's clearly not a good recruitment policy. Maybe when we are full staffed but surely not when we are understaffed like it looks like. An active recruitment policy like a recruitment campaign should be very positive and I would be glad to help with that. Regards, Mounir I'm always willing to help also. I have plenty of time on my hands. First you need a date, then you need some devs who will be at their computers then you can go ape. Message everyone under the sun that Gentoo is going on a recruitment drive on from $date and there will be lots of friendly people in $location, $location and $location to show people what is required. Of course it would be easier if we had a list from Gentoo where help is needed most and we could broadcast for people in those areas. We could even write a web page where people added their names and details as a kind of pre-signup to test the water and see how many people we might get. Keep the names visible because that might create extra PR. Gentoo is looking for linux personnel and also those familiar with the distribution itself. What is required is either linux experience or experience with Gentoo, knowlege of bash and a helpful, happy attitude... If it were successful then a large group of mentors would be needed.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Retirement
On 11 Aug 2008, at 14:19, Patrick Lauer wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:51:11 -0700 Alec Warner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Despite our best efforts Gentoo is not a fun-loving community where everyone gets along. Actually, I'd say that's a fairly accurate description of the problem. Some people think Gentoo should primarily be a fun-loving community where everyone gets along, whilst others think Gentoo should primarily be a first-rate distribution delivering a quality product. You say that as if it is mutually exclusive. I claim that having fun leads to quality products because of motivation and the feedback between people where one challenges the other to do better - I've seen quite a few examples of such interactions in the past, but thanks to depressing monologues by people with too much ego that is becoming more and more rare. Gentoo is supposed to be fun. If it stops being fun only grumpy old men will do the bare minimum to keep things from breaking too badly instead of improving things. Meh. I demand mandatory fun hours twice a week! And a coffee machine. And a pony. Yes! A pony! GLEP 57. Coffee machine and Pony Needed. When in need of help, Gentoo needs a knight in shining armour, that usually comes as coffee so to facilitate that we need a coffee machine and a pony. I have just been informed by amne that the pony needs to be pink.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 Ivan Chernyavsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Recently I've subscribed to this list because I thought this is the right way to start being involved in Gentoo development process --- I thought technical discussions are of most importance here. You are sadly mistaken... snip Once again, all accusations and no proof. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:48:02 + Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 00:17:56 +0400 | * have some insane paranoid conviction that Freenode staff are the | ones busy spying on everything they say, whilst conveniently | forgetting to notice that Gentoo's own infra team and current | Council nomination group includes the person who abused root powers | to sniff out lilo's password and give it to the GNAA. Are you ready to back up this claim by presenting some evidence? If not, are you ready to accept the consequence of spreading such FUD? I'm sure you could ask Freenode and the developer in question for on the record statements, if you're interested. I'd be careful, that is potentially libellous. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo Council 2008/2009 Nominations end TODAY 23:59 UTC
Although he has been nominated already and thus declined I would still like amne to change his mind and run for council again. George -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
++ It's about time someone said this and I honestly think that lots of developers will be thinking the same. In the end, PMS is just a way for them to spread their own agenda and force it on both the developers and the users so maybe it would be best for all if paludis and it's developers were to concentrate on making paludis for a different distro. Trollix may be a good place to start... Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: Chris++ On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:43 PM, Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 2008-06-15 at 15:50 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Do you think that the differences between the proportion of patches from 'Paludis people' that are accepted or rejected and the proportion of patches from 'Portage people' or 'Pkgcore people' indicates a problem? Nope. What I see as a problem is that the primary author and current de facto maintainer is so much of an asshole that he was forcibly removed from the Gentoo project, which PMS is supposed to be written for, and has ostracized (at least) one of the package manager's development team with his constant not-so-subtle attacks. Quite frankly, I'd prefer see Gentoo take control over the specification that defines the most important single feature of Gentoo and remove the non-Gentoo developers from its development. No offense, but you're not a Gentoo developer any longer and you shouldn't have a say in how *we* manage ourselves. You're more than welcome to contribute code, fork, or whatever the hell you want. This is open source, after all, but that doesn't mean you should be allowed to hold the position of power over Gentoo that you've been granted. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Games Developer -- Mauricio Lima Pilla Polytechnic Center - UCPEL [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://g3pd.ucpel.tche.br/~pilla key 0x37705BE0 I'm just very selective about the reality I choose to accept. -- Calvin -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Luca Barbato wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Package manager maintainers refusing to do basic testing before claiming support for a new EAPI has very messy consequences. If package manager maintainers aren't going to do the responsible thing, the whole point of EAPIs is lost. Thats a circular argument since portage and pkgcore developers are complaining about eapi definition and PMS management. lu If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be given to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Agenda [WAS: One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June]
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:32:35 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the bickering is stopping development then maybe it should be given to a 3rd party to complete and have the last word. Considering third parties have at best contributed a few small patches, I don't see that getting very far... If a third party's genuinely prepared to take over and do the work they're more than welcome to. I dont see that the work isn't done, I see arguing about standards and implementations and as there is 3 voices in this and little is being decided then anything that can't be sorted should be submitted for review and decisions taken. There are things that I don't understand about the EAPI structure (why versions may be incompatible with each other) but it seems like we are heading for differing standards soon. Feel free to flame and call me a fool... -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/ There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on PMS appears to have commit access to it... I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable. With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined standard is no longer sufficient... makes it sound like the previous work that was done was by idiots. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] One-Day Gentoo Council Reminder for June
Thomas Anderson wrote: On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 11:11:51PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:34:56 -0400 Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd honestly like to see an official PMS project page i.e. http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/pms/ There's http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/qa/pms.xml . Unfortunately, rane decided to go and vandalise it for some reason and no-one working on PMS appears to have commit access to it... I would like to comment that the wording on that page is unacceptable. With the advent of alternative package managers, this ill-defined standard is no longer sufficient... makes it sound like the previous work that was done was by idiots. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list That says nothing about the previous state of the portage. It only says the standard wasn't well-defined before PMS. It sounds and looks bad. It is so poorly written it looks as if the author is saying the last one was crap so we have to do a better one. In fact, ill-defined needn't be in there at all. this is no longer sufficient is sufficient. A better thing to write would be: With the advent of alternative package managers a further defining of standard is necessary... -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009
Alex Howells wrote: In short: vote for me if you want less bullshit, less asshats and a more fun distribution. That is all. Damn! Astinus for PM! :) -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Council Idea
I have an strange idea, it will probably get shot down by everyone or people will point out that it has been discussed and thought it was a bad idea but anyway... ...why not invite a developer from another distribution to join the council? I think inviting co-operation from other areas would only be of benefit. Ideas could get a fresh view, decisions would be completely unbiased and previous politics would never come into play. It may have some ancillary benefits. Close co-operation with another distribution could lead to a lasting co-operation of mutual help and collaboration and could well be a format that other distros use in the future. flame away... George (sorry if the post sounds hippie-ish) -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2008/2009
Ferris McCormick wrote: I also nominate: NeddySeagoon Regards, Ferris I completely agree. Few people have done more behind the scenes as Roy. I would also like to nominate zmendico for his excellent work with portage. George -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council
William L. Thomson Jr. wrote: On Tue, 2008-06-03 at 11:31 +0100, George Prowse wrote: Alex Howells wrote: 2008/6/3 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thirded Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to nominate or support nominations? Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp gets a second. Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote. Foundation members, and Gentoo Developers are not the same. I do not believe Council elections have anything at all to do with the Foundation. Sorry, my bad. I presumed he was talking about the council -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council
Josh Saddler wrote: Denis Dupeyron wrote: Alright. Then I'll nominate all members of the current council. In alphabetical order: amne betelgeuse dberkholz flameeyes jokey lu_zero vapier Seconded. Thirded -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council
Alex Howells wrote: 2008/6/3 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thirded Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to nominate or support nominations? Either way, all of the current Council get my nomination, plus welp gets a second. Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote. -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations for council
Ulrich Mueller wrote: On Tue, 03 Jun 2008, George Prowse wrote: Someone can clarify but don't you need to be a Foundation member to nominate or support nominations? [...] Anyone can nominate but only members get a vote. GLEP 39 says something else: | * Council members will be chosen by a general election of all devs | once per year. Ulrich Correct. Only developers can vote but anyone can nominate: http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/ 6. Voting Process * Council elections generally happen once a year snip * Anyone can nominate (nominating yourself is OK) I have voted in the previous 3 elections, 2 of my nominations accepted in 2006 :) http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-nominees.xml -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2008 Google Summer of Code
Richard Freeman wrote: George Prowse wrote: How does the SoC work within Gentoo? Do the developers suggest things they want worked on or do the users suggest things, the developers okay it and then they get worked on or what? I think the good ideas matter more than who came up with them! If you have one - share it! It obviously needs to be a suitable project, and I'm sure the devs would comment on any possibly-unnoticed issues with a proposal. However, the SoC is probably a good opportunity for users (and devs) to get some new features that require some investment since it is a paid job. I have asked on the forum and so far the ability to compile applications for chroot jail and related parts seems popular. http://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-653624.html -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] 2008 Google Summer of Code
Grant Goodyear wrote: Google has been hinting not-so-subtlely that there's going to be a 2008 Google Summer of Code. I expect that if we want to participate, we're going to have to have our ducks in a row by March, if not earlier. So, does Gentoo want to participate this year? If so, who's going to run it? Who's going to help? What are we going to do differently this year? I'll help if it's something people want to do, but I'd like to see some serious changes this year. I'd like us to only accept proposals that we actually think are quite good. In the past we've been told that we have N slots to fill, so we choose the best N proposals, despite the fact that we often only get a handful of exceptional proposals. I'd also like to see us require weekly public status reports from our students. Quick show of hands: how many people know how what any of our students accomplished last year? I doubt there are many, despite the fact that some good work was done last year. Thoughts? Comments? -g2boojum- How does the SoC work within Gentoo? Do the developers suggest things they want worked on or do the users suggest things, the developers okay it and then they get worked on or what? George -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: Seeking questions for a user survey
Steve Long wrote: Joe Peterson wrote: On Thu, Jan 17, 2008 at 10:56:36AM +, Steve Long wrote: Ryan Hill wrote: I agree, though year of birth might be interesting. Income and children are a bit too private. ++ in general although I do think parenthood (if responsible) is as relevant as age. A 28 year old with a 5 year old kid has a lot to show a 35 year old doctoral student with no kids, even if it's not all technical. # of kids isn't relevant. Judging the maturity of users (or devs) by how many children they have (or indeed *if* they have children) is pretty questionable. I know people who have kids and are pretty irresponsible (that's not to say most are, but one does not guarantee the other). And I'd argue that someone with children does not necessarily have a lot to show someone without kids, unless it is the specific experience of childrearing. There are many people (myself and my wife included) who choose consciously not to have children. It is becoming more and more a *choice* people can legitimately make rather than just an assumed part of life. It is not selfish or immature, as some people think, so I'd be careful about implying that such a question gauges maturity. My apologies if I caused you any offense, Joe. I fully agree that choosing not to have children is just as mature as deciding to procreate, and more mature than simply drifting into parenthood. I suppose what I am getting at is the idea that there are others in Gentoo besides young single males. A responsible parent or a committed spouse has a very different perspective to a teenager. Certainly my perspective now at 37 is vastly different to when I was 18. Parenthood changed a great deal, as did the earlier process of committing to marriage. Which is not to denigrate people who chose not to marry; my godchildren's parents were dead-set about their commitment to each other without a piece of paper. I guess it's the change between being an individual and feeling a commitment to someone else. And yeah maybe it's not something we need to ask anyone, but it is good to consider that there are diverse perspectives within the group. In the same vein I asked on project wrt to number of female devs and was told there are perhaps 3 or 4 iirc. For a survey of this kind I think questions about children etc are as inappropriate as ones about sexual orientation. Personally i'd stick to the fundamentals. George -- gentoo-dev@lists.gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: New lists and their usage
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Sun, 2007-07-22 at 21:26 +0200, Jan Kundrát wrote: Ryan Hill wrote: zombieswift/new devs-project council/trustee nominations -project Then it's worth cross-posting -core or -dev-announce or similar. I thought that goal of -project was to keep devs away from poisonous content without impairing their Gentoo-awareness. This is what I am afraid of, as it now looks like all we've accomplished is making it more difficult for someone to keep their eyes on everything. That's what you get for allowing trolls on the list.Sorry for being brutally honest but it has been a long time coming... George -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: have any developers subscribed to -project?
George Prowse wrote: Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be heard from developers... I would just like to apologise. The reason why so little (e.g. none) replies to a certain email were recieved was because list does not have reply to munging enabled and therefore only went to one person on the list G -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Thomas Scharl wrote: George Prowse schrieb: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or alike. Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all channels this still is far from beeing representative. A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to. Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. a) The people who don't actively follow the communication channels wouldn't know what was going on so they would never notice! Du... b) If people don't want to contribute in them then it is up to them. People can't complain if they are given the option. c) You don't need lots of technical skills to help. To be honest, that is immaterial anyway, there is a huge wealth of knowlege in the forums community (that is unused by Gentoo) and there are always people who would explain something in plain language. George -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Getting -project started
Duncan wrote: Robin H. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:17:58 -0700: On Thu, Jul 19, 2007 at 09:15:31PM -0500, lnxg33k wrote: Ryan Hill wrote: These are on gmane now as well. -dev-announce as RO and -project as RW. They should have turned up on archives as well, but don't seem to have yet. I'm subscribed to the gmane groups and haven't seen anything there yet either, despite the fact that at least one message I xposted, should be on both dev and project, and I see others referencing posting to project but don't see anything on it on gmane at all. Is anybody subscribed by mail getting stuff on project yet? If neither gmane or gentoo's archives are showing anything... I am -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] have any developers subscribed to -project?
Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be heard from developers... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] have any developers subscribed to -project?
Ned Ludd wrote: On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 20:58 +0100, George Prowse wrote: Do any devs subscribe to -project because no replies have yet to be heard from developers... Please stop flooding my inbox. It is an honest developer question because it was meant to have discussions between developers there and if no developers subscribe then what is the point of having it? You might as well just close it now -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Steve Long wrote: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of entry anymore. I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each herd/ package. Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is busier than #gentoo-kde. The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions about changing ebuilds, imo. If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them! Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. that is why the pronoun them is a plural... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is the reason why it shouldn't be done as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their system breaks and they try to find out why. So you think nothing should be done because some people don't interact in the Gentoo communication channels? I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is the reason why it shouldn't be done No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design decisions is why it shouldn't be done. So those people that would reply would make wrong suggestions/answers/whatever.. Thats a pretty bold comment when one of the main Off The Wall posters codes rocket propulsion software for the British Government. as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of impossible goals. People at Gentoo tend to know what they would like, if they suggest something that is unobtainable and are given reasons why, 2 things would happen: 1. They would have a greater respect for the developers for actually trying. 2. They would have knowlege to be able to suggest an alternative. It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told sorry, we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all. That doesn't stop you having your say by contributing... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Mike Doty wrote: [snip] get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate. I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project, are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting -project started
Roy Marples wrote: On Tue, 2007-07-17 at 11:00 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: How about defining the purpose of all these list with which we'll soon end up before going ahead and requesting changes? -dev is just for technical development. -project is for non technical development of Gentoo. What is technical development? Well, if your email doesn't have any code or questions about code then it probably doesn't belong on -dev is is more suited to another list. If you feel the urge to email about other things then submit more list ideas. So that would mean that welcoming new developers would be on the -project list? Would package removals be on it because it seems to be somewhere in the middle? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Donnie Berkholz wrote: Matthias Langer wrote: no offense, but this is one of the worst proposals i've ever read on this list; why? because, one of gentoo's major problems is that it is becoming more and more a toy exclusively for its own developers. Gentoo's always been exclusively for the developers. Nobody's paying us to do this. It just so happens that the things we want to do also benefit other people, and so they use them. That is possibly the most pathetic, misjudged and harmful (to Gentoo) post I have ever read. You should be ashamed. Just because developers develop because they want to doesn't mean they dont want to be part of a community, if that wasn't the case then none of the current developers would have originally been part of the userbase to begin with. Gentoo is becoming a joke, how many more developers have to leave? How many more harmful articles will it take? Users have left in droves and you seem to be becoming more and more insular the worse it gets. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] So...
Wernfried Haas wrote: On Mon, Jul 16, 2007 at 08:41:42PM +, Luis Medinas wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 15:06 -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: So it's 97 degrees outside.. it's pretty hot... Since everyone loves to debate non-technical things on this list.. Let's debate Fahrenheit vs Celcius... Discuss! Well Celcius isn't the S.I scale for temperature but it's related with Kelvin which is the S.I scale for temperature. The conversion formula to Fahrenheit is °F = (°C × 1.8) + 32 and to kelvin is just K = °C + 273.15. These days i use more Kelvin than Celcius because it's used on real life problems i have to solve. Rankine [1] brings you the best of two worlds: Starting at scientific 0 degrees, but using the convenient degree scale defined by some obscure water-salt-mixture and a the slight fever of the average gentoo-dev poster. :-) cheers, Wernfried [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankine tbh, you really need a different one for developers that takes into account how far above or below sea level you are because as the air gets thinner the mass of the water that is used to regulate their temperature would change in relation to the caffiene molecules -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 13:14 +1000, Will Briggs wrote: Oh dear. slight delay in an email list forum? That's like saying you can take part in this face-to-face conversation but you have to wait 30 seconds before you can say anything In effect you reduce that person to an on-looker who can throw in the occassional comment. The comments themselves are reduced in their relevance or impact because by the time they are heard, the conversation has moved on. On a mailing list? We're not talking IRC here. We're talking mailing lists. I can take a nap, a full 8 hour sleep, or many times even take the WEEKEND OFF FROM GENTOO and still manage to come back and give useful input. Email isn't exactly instant and nobody who runs a mail server will even pretend that it is. Adding a, say, 3 hour delay between posting and the timeout, doesn't seem to me like it would affect much of anything. After all, I managed to not touch my email since Friday and I am still managing to participate in this conversation. This is going to crash and burn but wouldn't it be an ideal job description for the proctors? Instead of telling people off they could just stop people posting. That way you dont even get to know that they are even there. Seeing as most of them are forum mods there could even be a why was I blocked? thread in Feedback... Their decision to forward emails to a -politics (or whatever it was) ML would be a great one -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Mon, 2007-07-16 at 06:45 -0500, Andrew Gaffney wrote: That was my thought as well. We (the developers) owe nothing to the community at large. We are volunteers, and if we want to treat Gentoo as our own personal toy (which we currently aren't), then so be it. Exactly. I work on Gentoo because I want to work on it. It scratches an itch that I have. I like using it personally and also professionally. I find it easier to help improve Gentoo, thereby making it better for myself, than to simply ask others to fix it for me and hope that they're interested in changing things in the same manner as I am. This is exactly why I became a developer and why I still am a developer. That being said, I know that I, as well as many other Gentoo developers, will gladly accept payment to work on what YOU want me to work on, but until such time as I am in someone else's employ, I'll be working on what I choose to work on myself. If you don't like what a developer is working on or would rather they work on something that interests you, offer to pay them. Unless they're your employee, they owe you nothing. Maybe you should change the Gentoo philosophy: http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/philosophy.xml Us, the Gentoo Proletariat, respect the developers because of the great work they do for free but that doesn't absolve you of any responsibility towards Gentoo, quite the opposite. The Gentoo philosophy and how it states the need for Gentoo to accomodate the needs of it's users establishes a minimum level of responsibility from the Distro to it's userbase so basically stating I do what I want and how I want is not in keeping with the way Gentoo was meant to be run and shouldn't be how it is being run at this moment in time. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] ML changes
Chrissy Fullam wrote: Could we try to keep this thread, and all the similarly named ones, on topic? The pointing fingers, trash talking, etc is not furthering anything. If you don't like councils opinion, or someone elses opinion, well respect them enough to allow them their own opinion. The real topic at hand is about this mailing list and the proposed changes. If you don't like those proposed changes, please think it through and make alternative suggestions. The original proposed idea: * Make -dev a moderated mailing list, imposing a delay on all emails sent by non-developers and adding devs to that same list as needed. All emails should be of a development nature and should stay on topic. Devs retain the right to discard moderated emails if they are off topic or inappropriate. Devs found to be abusing this privilege would undergo review by devrel for further action. Devs would be required to be on this list. * Make a new mailing list for the off topic conversations to go to. Not a requirement for devs to join but a place to continue on a topic that really isnt development related. I really don't think anyone on council honestly believes that there are no good alternative ideas out there so the we as the community need to come up with those alternatives. Stopping or postponing technical posts on -dev will always be counter productive. Just create a topic in another list (-politics sounds a good one), forward all further responses there and if necessary create a new post to -dev to carry on the original discussion. The people involved in the -politics discussion can then carry it on somewhere else. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Steve Long wrote: Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done to death or anything, is it? And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this subject. Capiche? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: For Jakub (and the other procmail-impaired)
Steve Long wrote: Perhaps you'd like to explain just how Mr Gianelloni's post was NOT a troll then? Or is every developer's procmail setting (particularly for such a stupid thread) a matter we should all be discussing? It's not like amne never pointed out, several mails ago, that the whole thread had been done to death or anything, is it? And no, I don't like being lumped in with Mr McCreesh. Mate, chill out. We've all had our say and everyone is keeping quiet. Methinks that is the best idea now for everyone involved in this subject. Capiche? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Nominations open for the Gentoo Council 2007/08
Torsten Veller wrote: Let me paste last year's mail: | well it's about that time of the year ... time for nominating people | for the next Gentoo Council | | for the quick low down: | - nominations are from July 1 through July 31 | - anyone can nominate | - only Gentoo devs may be nominated | | so get with the nominating people ! | | for the full details, check out the Council homepage: | http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/#doc_chap6 Have fun and good luck :) I nominate wolf31o2 Uberlord tomk Johnm amne welp nightmorph -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 21:27:44 -0600 Ryan Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS. this thread is a good example of something that would belong on gentoo-project. ;) And this is why it's a bad idea: it's moving criticism away from where people will actually read it. And that's why it's a good idea, moving it to a place where it *should* be read. I see two options: put up with it here or move it to another list. The strange things is, the people that make all the noise don't want it moving to another list. That obviously implies that they feel their presence on Gentoo will be watered down without having the instant ability to turn every discussion into trolling session -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
Mike Doty wrote: George Prowse wrote: Kumba wrote: Kumba wrote: So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU. Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list ourselves. [snip] Anyways, thoughts? Bug #181368 is filed. Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter. Lets try and make this work, k? --Kumba I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q That would be the point of the irony... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
Kumba wrote: Kumba wrote: So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU. Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list ourselves. [snip] Anyways, thoughts? Bug #181368 is filed. Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter. Lets try and make this work, k? --Kumba I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 01:08 +0100, George Prowse wrote: from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml Look at the Council logs from the CoC being approved and the ones since. We asked for real guidelines so we could specifically avoid this sort of problem from happening. Then the council are to blame for having the CoC readily available under their *own* project pages. It has your's and most of the council's names as reviewers and after 3 months nothing has been said about it. The lack of activity and where it is situated make it look like it is official policy. All this is immaterial anyway because even if it had been extensively discussed at length then the proctors would still have acted the same, or would you have preferred that they held a meeting first and then a focus group and then a coffee morning before trying to stop a thread descending into anarchy? I cant see it would have gone any different to 1) warning. 2) if ignored then act -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:15:58 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All this is immaterial anyway because even if it had been extensively discussed at length then the proctors would still have acted the same If that really were the case, it would just be an even stronger argument for disbanding them. You have to be joking, their actions were 100% what they should have been: thread was going downhill - they gave a warning - people ignored it - they acted. If you dont want to adhere to the rules, dont post to the list. or would you have preferred that they held a meeting first and then a focus group and then a coffee morning before trying to stop a thread descending into anarchy? The thread descended into anarchy because of the proctors. No, the threat descended into anarchy because of your opportunistic nature. Every thread where there is a possibility of getting back at the Gentoo heirachy you jump in with both feet and pull your coven in with you. Trying to get back at various people and groups in Gentoo because you feel embarrassed by your exclusion is no way for an adult to act, this isn't like carbon trading, you cant offset any good you do with the bad I cant see it would have gone any different to 1) warning. 2) if ignored then act Perhaps if the proctors had discussed things first, they wouldn't have made two major screwups that resulted in Gentoo losing yet another developer. That may have been the case if they acted inappropriately but as I have said, a warning and then a 24hr cooling off is all that is needed, the thread would have stopped dead then. You must start to realise that whenever a touchy subject is brought up and you intervene the decibel level goes up 10x by virtue of the fact that the pro-Ciaran and anti-Ciaran groups will immediately jump in with their voice. If you were really on these lists to help then you would keep quiet unless it is a 100% technical post so maybe the best idea is for you to teach yourself when to bite your lip. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Alexandre Buisse wrote: On Thu, Jun 7, 2007 at 12:20:07 +0200, George Prowse wrote: [...] before trying to stop a thread descending into anarchy? I wish it was descending into anarchy. Which is a highly organized social system, and doesn't have anything to do with chaos. Anarchy is just a system where there is no authority which hasn't been freely accepted (and freely as in you can refuse it without any consequence, not freely as in you can refuse it but then you won't be part of this project). So please, let's pay attention to the meaning of the words we are using. /Alexandre Anarchy is when the individual as a law unto himself and there are no rules to force him to act appropriately - suitable word for the situation, thankyou. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Wulf C. Krueger wrote: On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote: [Proctor system] a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. Nor do I. Every thread that has gone bad in the last 2 years has been because of the same people. Ban them from -dev and there is no need for the proctors. If they weren't banned from the forums as well then they could have been directed there. It just goes to show how positive their influence on Gentoo is. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 19:16 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wulf C. Krueger wrote: I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's difficult to judge. The guideline, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to ban people who dont abide by the time-outs. What guideline? Where is it? When was it approved by the Council, like we had said that proctors policy would need to be? from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml Consequences Disciplinary action will be up to the descretion of the proctors. What is a proctor? A proctor is an official charged with the duty of maintaining good order. If discplinary measures are taken and the affected person wishes to appeal, appeals should be addressed to the Gentoo Council via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] To prevent conflicts of interest, Council members may not perform the duties of a proctor. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay. Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here, may I ask? I guess amne is right here. I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users. Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors Episode II - Attack of the clones
Wernfried Haas wrote: Hi everyone, I just returned from my trip to Kamino and brought back some new members for the proctors team: blackace, jmbsvicetto, marienz, pilla and mark_alec. All of them have a background in forums/#gentoo/userrel and hopefully will help in bringing peace to this galaxy. Luckily for all of us there is no Jar Jar Binks aboard. :-) cheers, Wernfried I thought you said my invite was in the post? George -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] *DEVELOPMENT* mail list, right?
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Fri, 2007-04-06 at 09:45 -0700, Ned Ludd wrote: Here is what I'm doing these days.. Let's see. I'm currently leading the 2007.0 release, which includes building LiveDVD releases for amd64/x86, LiveCD for alpha/ppc, and doing the entire PPC release, since Pylon is currently away due to school. Besides that, I'm coordinating the articles and DVD media for Linux+DVD magazine for their upcoming Gentoo issue. I've released new versions of catalyst (2.0.3) and genkernel (3.4.7) and will likely be releasing newer versions of both soon. I have been working on the Catalyst Reference Manual, which I expect to have ready soon to allow me to stabilize catalyst 2.0.x and finally put catalyst 1.x to pasture. Damn, and there was me thinking you did the GWN occasionally as well George -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Tears of unfathomable sorrow
Alec Warner wrote: Much to the joy of many I am now retiring from Gentoo... It is a pity to see you go, many users like me will be sad to see you leave. George -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Flourish Conference Reminder
Samir Faci wrote: Sorry guys, I didn't think this would be considered spam, I was actually hoping some of the gentoo dev, if any are in the area would be interesting in participating and representing gentoo in the conference. Since this is was seen as spam by some, I apologize. Well this is a list about development... The forums are probably better suited for you: forums.gentoo.org George -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems
Caleb Cushing wrote: What on earth is going to be a major visible improvement to a command line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is going to realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands: emerge -u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental differences that the average user will notice How about the speed of search's? the speed of resolving dependancy's? how about the speed that it takes to calculate a dependancy listing after you've already done it once? portage is SLOW. So speed... how about getting it to the point where it could be made to incorporate a graphical frontend if wanted. There are loads, i can name 3 off the top of my head, new ones are always popping up in unsupported software in the forums as well. how about providing me a list of packages that are masked instead of making me read and unmask them one at a time. That pretty much defeats the object of them being masked in the first place So all you can really come up with is speed? If a power user yourself can only come up with speed what is an ordinary user going to think of... *sigh* -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:30:11 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees (and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future. And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' I think you're missing a clear view of the facts here... Incidentally, I'm unsure as to how your analogy applies here. You keep mentioning 'best employee'. I'm not sure how that fits in. If i remember, I said one of and also (if i remember correctly) flameeyes happened to be head of two herds, a member of the council, had more cia commits than any developer and was one of THE most respected developers in the whole of Gentoo. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Why I don't think the CoC is a good idea
Caleb Cushing wrote: I have no idea if it's possible but if a topic is deemed to be off topic then can any further replies with that subject be forwarded automatically to another address like gentoo-dev-offtopic so they dont go to gentoo-dev? I believe you can change the destination based on subject with an mta. the question is what does implementing this entail? and being that a subject might be re-used in a completely unrelated (to the original topic) or be put back on topic how do you decide when to remove the forward. I think that you would probably just change the subject and tell people. A big ascii note saying REPLY TO THIS IN -DEV would do it. I dunno, it's just a suggestion -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Gentoo's problems
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 01:19:52 + George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What on earth is going to be a major visible improvement to a command line based package manager that any average Gentoo user is going to realise? The average user probably only uses a few commands: emerge -u/p/a/v/--sync/package/world/system and then use package.keywords/mask/unmask so there are really no fundamental differences that the average user will notice If you think that that's all a package manager should do, you have a serious lack of imagination. Most users need or would heavily benefit from far more. See http://ciaranm.org/show_post/95 for some modest ideas that have turned out to be useful. All well and good (and I agree that those would be nice) but none that today's average Gentoo user is going to notice as a major visible improvement. --depclean has improved dramatically so the --uninstall will be just another way of doing it. And that really means that portage is no easier/harder than it was 3 years ago when USE=~x86 emerge foo was consigned to the dustbin Except that now users have to deal with more like a thousand installed packages, and have no sane way of doing simple things like: * Unmasking everything needed to get a particular KDE release in one go great for power users and devs but again, the average user will see no improvement * Uninstalling a package along with its now-unused dependencies * Uninstalling a package along with everything depending upon it Yup, i agree with you there, --depclean seem to be mostly working properly so that is not so much of a problem but --uninstall-with-deps would be great Sunrise is the canonical example. Also consider the way the forums are being run (like it or not, the forums are taken by many to be representative of Gentoo's user base)... It seems to most that the forums is the only part of Gentoo that is - and always has been - running smoothly Smoothly is not productively or effectively. But they do it VERY productively and effectively - look how fast they ban the troublemakers and trolls. Maybe they should control the lists...? Methinks you should sheath your swords for lack of argument on this one (Henry V - Act 3 Scene 1) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Distrowatch
Kevin F. Quinn wrote: On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:40:54 +0100 Paul de Vrieze [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ps. If someone wanted to start a gentoo-politics, by all means, go ahead, just don't expect anyone to read it. That's not such a bad idea, really. I don't mean creating -politics as such, but the idea of separating out these long debates from -dev, so that -dev can focus on technical issues (is this eclass ok, last rites, how do I do X,Y,Z in ebuilds etc). When these big debates arise, discussion could be shunted to the separate list, requiring those who care enough to join the debate, to join that list, which may help limit the number of people who get involved. Perhaps gentoo-discuss. Which is exactly what I suggested ;) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Ferris McCormick wrote: On Thu, 2007-03-15 at 00:35 +, George Prowse wrote: Ferris McCormick wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, 14 Mar 2007 17:30:32 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: snip Personally I understand why flameeyes took that to bugzilla; how else could he say he'd gone thru the appropriate channels? Devrel (a group, not an individual) weren't set up to respond quickly as others have informed us all. Case in point: you need to distinguish between flameeyes leaving (again) as a publicity stunt because his attempt to blackmail devrel failed and flameeyes' stated reason for leaving... snip It was an ultimatum. He goes or I go, it was not blackmail. FFS, can we please stop calling it blackmail? As I recall, flameeyes made the statement to kloeri, and kloeri called it blackmail. Whatever you call it, in business, issuing such an ultimatum is one of the quickest ways to become unemployed. So you'd rather let one of the best employees go rather than chastise a worker who is leaving soon? Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face. You misunderstand. The analogy is that I walk into my boss's office and say Fire Joe or I'm gone, in which case I can expect to be gone one way or the other. Joe was leaving anyway. Ask Joe to leave soon which saves every single problem. Joe just does what he was going to do, you get what you want and the company keeps on running smoothly. The company then has the choice of making it known to you that it will not be tolerated in the future. Having spent 5 years as a manager of a Health club and having a qualification in Sport and Recreational Management means I know what I am talking about. It is far easier and better to reprimand one of the people when the other is no longer there, it stops either of them thinking that they won. Both lose - one leaves by his own accord and the other is reprimanded so they are both equal and that stops either of them thinking that they have been treated differently which is key to a situation like this. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Steve Long wrote: George Prowse wrote: Stephen Bennett wrote: I'd rather make it known that that sort of backhanded tactics to get rid of someone you don't like won't work whoever uses them. You would certainly make that point. then let the other employee leave and let the employee in question know that it will not be tolerated in the future. Therefore saving the services of one of the best employees (and with it money) and also said employee knows /exactly/ where he stands for the future. It is called man-management and people skills, something that is severely lacking in Gentoo at the moment Mate that's the first time in ages that I've truly agreed with what you've written. I think I need a lie-down ;) Fortunately some people value integrity above what you call man-management and people skills. Marijn Thats the whole point about why it is lacking: using man management and people skills you can keep your integrity -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: gentoo-dev vs lkml?
Stephen Becker wrote: And if said employee had already pulled several I'm resigning publicity stunts in the past? And if said employee had seen other people trying the same thing unsuccessfully? Then you deal with them at such a time as they appear, you do not let 2 employees go when everyone's integrity could have been kept with just the one leaving - therein lies the skill in 'people skills' Seeing as you guys are discussing me, I suppose I should correct the flawed thinking so you can actually get something right. Your logic is completely flawed because it assumes that my reaction would have been any different if I didn't have some sort of shiny gentoo developer tag associated with me. I would still have told Diego exactly how I felt about unreasonably abusing an arch team member who was simply trying to do his job had I been a developer or not. So seriously, stop assuming my impending retirement had anything to do with this. I would still react loudly to folks pulling a similar stunt now that I *am* retired. -Steve That is immaterial, no-one is discussing what you or Diego did before the situation came up -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
