Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On 09/06/06, Luis Francisco Araujo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Bainbridge wrote: There are already loads of semi-official overlays. Besides the stuff actually hosted by gentoo (random example http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/bzr/overlay/) there are official groups (again, not picking on anyone but exampes would be java, php, webapps...) with semi-official overlays. I don't know if the overlays are actually hosted on gentoo hardware, but when they're run by gentoo devs, publically available, and referred to in forums, bugzilla, mailing lists etc. then that at least makes them semi-official. I don't agree with that semi-official term. We for example have an overlay for the Haskell project. Nevertheless, we consider it the official overlay for our group, but not for Gentoo. So that way we can use it as our sand-box, to play with it as much as we can, and giving commit access to even non-developers, the advantage The Haskell overlay isn't publically available (at least, layman doesn't know about it). That makes it quite different from the semi-official overlays I gave as examples. Whether something is semi-official or not is all about perception. If people see that a project is run by gentoo developers, possibly formed into a gentoo group, using gentoo resources (bugzilla, forums, mailing lists etc) to discuss and organise, then there will be a perception that the project has some semblance of officiality. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On 09/06/06, Luis Francisco Araujo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, i agree, writting and maintaining ebuilds is a hard and *time-consuming* task. So if an user can't even take the time to fix a digest, why we should support him officially?. The point is that there are lots of users who are interested in niche packages that no developers use or are interested in. These users have the skills to write an ebuild, and other users of the package have the skills to fix and maintain that ebuild over time. These guys don't mind downloading ebuilds from bugzilla and fixing digests. But there are a larger class of users of niche packages that don't have the ebuild skills, and don't want the hassle of bugzilla and digest fixing. This larger group of users are the ones that would benefit from an overlay. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Friday 09 June 2006 12:12, Chris Bainbridge wrote: This larger group of users are the ones that would benefit from an overlay. And this larger group of people is exactly the same one, that doesn't know to help itself, if necessary and will suffer the most, when something goes wrong. This group of people shouldn't use any overlay. I think the basic misconception is that some think we are supposed to provide a package just because it's requested. We need maintainers for every package. Without maintainers: Sorry, no. Period. Carsten pgpmveiBPApcq.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Chris Bainbridge wrote: On 09/06/06, Luis Francisco Araujo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Bainbridge wrote: There are already loads of semi-official overlays. Besides the stuff actually hosted by gentoo (random example http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/bzr/overlay/) there are official groups (again, not picking on anyone but exampes would be java, php, webapps...) with semi-official overlays. I don't know if the overlays are actually hosted on gentoo hardware, but when they're run by gentoo devs, publically available, and referred to in forums, bugzilla, mailing lists etc. then that at least makes them semi-official. I don't agree with that semi-official term. We for example have an overlay for the Haskell project. Nevertheless, we consider it the official overlay for our group, but not for Gentoo. So that way we can use it as our sand-box, to play with it as much as we can, and giving commit access to even non-developers, the advantage The Haskell overlay isn't publically available (at least, layman doesn't know about it). That makes it quite different from the semi-official overlays I gave as examples. I really don't know what semi-official means. And our overlay has always been publically available, http://haskell.org/~gentoo/gentoo-haskell/ But we don't have it as a way to offer extra ebuilds. We have it for testing, and experimental works and it has been used as playground for new developers too. Whether something is semi-official or not is all about perception. If people see that a project is run by gentoo developers, possibly formed into a gentoo group, using gentoo resources (bugzilla, forums, mailing lists etc) to discuss and organise, then there will be a perception that the project has some semblance of officiality. I am not against the overlay idea, i like it very much!, and we have been using it successfully in our team. I just don't see the point of having another official portage tree with maintainer-wanted packages as an overlay. Don't you see that what you are asking for is to have another portage tree, but now, with bunch of unmaintained and orphaned stuff, plus the extra sugar of *dangerous* consequences as some developers have already pointed out in this thread? I think we already have LOT of work with only one tree. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Chris Bainbridge wrote: On 09/06/06, Luis Francisco Araujo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, i agree, writting and maintaining ebuilds is a hard and *time-consuming* task. So if an user can't even take the time to fix a digest, why we should support him officially?. The point is that there are lots of users who are interested in niche packages that no developers use or are interested in. These users have the skills to write an ebuild, and other users of the package have the skills to fix and maintain that ebuild over time. These guys don't mind downloading ebuilds from bugzilla and fixing digests. But there are a larger class of users of niche packages that don't have the ebuild skills, and don't want the hassle of bugzilla and digest fixing. This larger group of users are the ones that would benefit from an overlay. Fine. I highly agree on that, now my question is, why this needs to be officially supported? -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 02:42 +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote: Hi, I have founded a new Gentoo Project for the Gentoo User Overlay. The intention is to give contributors a single place to put their ebuilds - a place where they can be downloaded, updated and be moved to portage more easily than through bugzilla. It is also a good place for users who would like to become developers to learn how to commit and how to not break the tree. We already *have* a single place. It is bugzilla. Wasn't it decided that we would *not* end up with some giant overlay that houses all of the non-tree stuff before the overlays project was brought into being? Does this not completely fly in the face of that? You can find the project page as a subproject of the overlays project [1] The overlay is available on overlays.gentoo.org [2] Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. Please keep the games bugs in bugzilla. Making this change is a direct change in games team policy without any prior notice to the games team and without our permission. Anyone who wants to help, please stop by in #gentoo-overlays @ freenode [1] http://gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/sunrise [2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/svn/proj/sunrise - Stefan PS: This is an announcement - No flamewars allowed Perhaps you should have discussed this before going and making an assumption for the entire developer pool. The idea itself isn't so bad as the fact that you've now essentially taken it upon yourself to decide how *every single one of us* is going to accept ebuilds from now on without any form of discussion. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:20:18 -0400 Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please keep the games bugs in bugzilla. Making this change is a direct change in games team policy without any prior notice to the games team and without our permission. No one needs permission to put ebuilds from bugs.gentoo.org into an overylay. The ebuilds, assuming they have the proper header, are all Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2. ~tcort pgpp7kESK1ig9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 09:32 -0400, Thomas Cort wrote: On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:20:18 -0400 Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please keep the games bugs in bugzilla. Making this change is a direct change in games team policy without any prior notice to the games team and without our permission. No one needs permission to put ebuilds from bugs.gentoo.org into an overylay. The ebuilds, assuming they have the proper header, are all Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2. I'm sorry, but what does this have to do with me making a request for games ebuilds to not be included? I really don't care if the games ebuilds are in the overlay, so long as the latest ebuilds are *also* in bugzilla, where they belong. Of course, it makes it rather pointless to have to update an ebuild in two locations, but we already *have* an official location for ebuild submissions, and that is bugzilla. Having to troll through some overlay only increases our work load. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thursday 08 June 2006 15:46, Chris Gianelloni wrote: Having to troll through some overlay only increases our work load. +1 for chris -- Diego Flameeyes Pettenò - http://farragut.flameeyes.is-a-geek.org/ Gentoo/Alt lead, Gentoo/FreeBSD, Video, AMD64, Sound, PAM, KDE pgpciKqnLh3FT.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Having to troll through some overlay only increases our work load. That and it would become an an official Gentoo BMG-style repo. Please, let us not officially encourage the ricers. Some of us work very hard to discourage this type of user behavior. -Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 09:32:13AM -0400, Thomas Cort wrote: On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:20:18 -0400 Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please keep the games bugs in bugzilla. Making this change is a direct change in games team policy without any prior notice to the games team and without our permission. No one needs permission to put ebuilds from bugs.gentoo.org into an overylay. The ebuilds, assuming they have the proper header, are all Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2. ~tcort I do not object to the concept of ebuilds in overlays. I do very much object to using any gentoo.org infrastructure or subdomains to do so. If someone is going to tackle that, it should be done outside of Gentoo proper. We don't need to be stuck maintaining and supporting a semiofficial overlay. -- Jon Portnoy avenj/irc.freenode.net -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thursday 08 June 2006 02:42, Stefan Schweizer wrote: Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. Can't agree with that. Users should a) post their ebuilds at bugzilla, since it is the place, we track request and b) get them from there, forced to maintain their own overlay (and actually look at each ebuild), than trust some arbitrary overlay, that is neither supported security wise, nor is ensured that the ebuilds have a minimal quality (do not fubar a users system). Overlays make sense to perform changes how a whole range of packages are handled, to be merged with the official Portage tree, later. What you intend to do is just broken. Don't! Carsten pgpxYMIpJj0pw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Jon Portnoy wrote: On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 09:32:13AM -0400, Thomas Cort wrote: On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 09:20:18 -0400 Chris Gianelloni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please keep the games bugs in bugzilla. Making this change is a direct change in games team policy without any prior notice to the games team and without our permission. No one needs permission to put ebuilds from bugs.gentoo.org into an overylay. The ebuilds, assuming they have the proper header, are all Distributed under the terms of the GNU General Public License v2. ~tcort I do not object to the concept of ebuilds in overlays. I do very much object to using any gentoo.org infrastructure or subdomains to do so. If someone is going to tackle that, it should be done outside of Gentoo proper. We don't need to be stuck maintaining and supporting a semiofficial overlay. It is my understanding the the Sunrise overlay is not open to anyone to commit, so it is not a contrib/ The sunrise project is the owner of the overlay and they are responsible for it's contents. The people commiting are responsible for what they commit. The point of the Sunrise project as I understand it is to aid in the development of ebuilds in maintainer-wanted, such that they may improve and be added to the tree; as well as to give frequent 'not quite a dev' and 'I don't have a bunch of time but would like to help' people a place to commit to. -Alec -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 11:12 -0400, Alec Warner wrote: It is my understanding the the Sunrise overlay is not open to anyone to commit, so it is not a contrib/ The sunrise project is the owner of the overlay and they are responsible for it's contents. The people commiting are responsible for what they commit. The point of the Sunrise project as I understand it is to aid in the development of ebuilds in maintainer-wanted, such that they may improve and be added to the tree; as well as to give frequent 'not quite a dev' and 'I don't have a bunch of time but would like to help' people a place to commit to. I don't think the problem with maintainer-wanted ebuilds is that they are crappy, but that there is no dev willing to maintain them and ensure their quality over time. 'sunrise' (who came up with that name ? cheap asian poetry attempt) doesn't change that by adding it to an 'official' overlay. Instead of tackling the real problem -the lack of maintainers to deal with all requests- 'sunrise' is trying to create a backdoor for unreliable maintained stuff to enter the tree. - foser signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 11:12 -0400, Alec Warner wrote: It is my understanding the the Sunrise overlay is not open to anyone to commit, so it is not a contrib/ The sunrise project is the owner of the overlay and they are responsible for it's contents. The people commiting are responsible for what they commit. The point of the Sunrise project as I understand it is to aid in the development of ebuilds in maintainer-wanted, such that they may improve and be added to the tree; as well as to give frequent 'not quite a dev' and 'I don't have a bunch of time but would like to help' people a place to commit to. Ehh... except there's *already* ebuilds that are *not* under maintainer-wanted in the overlay. It also doesn't answer the questions of security and maintenance. Are genstef and jokey going to be responsible for the security of every single package in the overlay? Are they going to be responsible for ensuring that the packages adhere to current ebuild standards? How are ebuilds going to get from this overlay into the official repository? Not a single one of these questions has been answered, yet many perfectly valid objections have been brought up by a few developers, with no answers being given. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 10:13:45AM -0400, Stephen P. Becker wrote: That and it would become an an official Gentoo BMG-style repo. Please, let us not officially encourage the ricers. Some of us work very hard to discourage this type of user behavior. I wholeheartedly agree with Stephen on this. You should have brought up the idea for the Sunricers project on this mailing for discussion instead of just going ahead and implementing it. Personally, I dislike the idea of having officially supported (read: hosted on *.gentoo.org infrastructure) overlays for unmaintained ebuilds for which nobody did any real quality assurance. I fear this will drag Gentoo back into the old-ages of having a reputation of a ricer-distribution; a reputation I for one have worked very hard to get rid of during the past 2 years. Please put this project on hold until is has been discussed properly on this mailing list. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpdZwna9ltFc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 17:45 +0200, foser wrote: Instead of tackling the real problem -the lack of maintainers to deal with all requests- 'sunrise' is trying to create a backdoor for unreliable maintained stuff to enter the tree. Don't forget the free reign it gives to the sunrise development team to bypass any policies in place by the teams responsible for packages that are already in the tree. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Carsten Lohrke wrote: On Thursday 08 June 2006 02:42, Stefan Schweizer wrote: Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. Can't agree with that. Users should a) post their ebuilds at bugzilla, since it is the place, we track request and b) get them from there, forced to maintain their own overlay (and actually look at each ebuild), than trust some arbitrary overlay, that is neither supported security wise, nor is ensured that the ebuilds have a minimal quality (do not fubar a users system). Overlays make sense to perform changes how a whole range of packages are handled, to be merged with the official Portage tree, later. Agreed. While this is in theory an excellent idea, it won't help right now. In my opinion, what we really need is for some community members to step up and create the world's lauditory adjective Gentoo-ebuild-related clearinghouse, better than BMG etc., that could be used as a better means of submitting ebuilds to bugzie. That way there's much more outside testing and widespread use before (hopefully) very high quality ebuilds and/or overlays are submitted to bugzilla for official Gentoo review. So the workload on the Gentoo devs would be greatly reduced, instead of having to (now) police ebuilds in at least two different locations. Overlays are a pain to manage as it is. I understand that Sunrise is trying to solve the central problem of maintainers, but right now it sounds like it's doing it in a very roundabout, ineffective manner. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEiFKFrsJQqN81j74RAu9XAKCOuXMRWIKQqlVXpAzA9s2DvGA03QCfaGjp f2zhH9DNu9dLONvnh1ACtK4= =kuou -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On 08/06/06, foser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the problem with maintainer-wanted ebuilds is that they are crappy, but that there is no dev willing to maintain them and ensure their quality over time. 'sunrise' (who came up with that name ? cheap asian poetry attempt) doesn't change that by adding it to an 'official' overlay. One of the problems is that developer interest is transitory. The current system suggests that a developer take personal responsibility for ebuilds they maintain, and they maintain them until another developer steps up. It would be nice (and I guess this is one of the aims of sunrise) if there were a way for people to contribute ebuilds that they are interested in at the time, but don't want to promise to maintain forever. Think about wikipedia - how many pages would there be if every page creator had to guarantee that they would maintain each page indefinately? The time it takes to actually apply fixes etc. is another point. Bugzilla is a poor system for sharing and managing the flow of ebuilds and patches. It would be nice if there were a way for non-devs to publish ebuilds/fixes using a VCS so that they could be shared and easily pulled and applied to the main tree. It takes too long to browse bugzilla, find bugs, find ebuilds and patches, download them, copy to an overlay, fix digests, emerge, etc. and most users will figure it's not worth the hassle. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: Personally, I dislike the idea of having officially supported (read: hosted on *.gentoo.org infrastructure) overlays for unmaintained ebuilds for which nobody did any real quality assurance. I fear this will drag Gentoo back into the old-ages of having a reputation of a ricer-distribution; a reputation I for one have worked very hard to get rid of during the past 2 years. I agree here. When I decided to help out the overlays project, I thought I had made it clear that I didn't want to support a BMG-style repo on official hardware. It was for things like php, perl, etc that had their own overlay and were actively working out specific issues for their project. What you're proposing goes against what I supported initially. There was a lengthy discussion about this months ago, but apparently this group decided to ignore all the points in it and just go with this without consulting the group first. If you can't sort out the issues that have been brought out here, I'm afraid I'm going to have to decline my support on infra hardware for this specific project (but not the other overlays so people don't have a fit :-) ). -- Lance Albertson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager --- GPG Public Key: http://www.ramereth.net/lance.asc Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1 4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742 ramereth/irc.freenode.net signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Stefan Schweizer wrote: [Wed Jun 07 2006, 07:42:03PM CDT] Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. I'm not opposed to what would essentially be an overlay of maintainier-wanted ebuilds, but I would actually prefer to see that happen by pulling from the bugzilla database instead of trying to replace bugzilla altogether. My reasoning is that bugzilla provides a place for community development of an ebuild (including commentary!), which would not be true of just the overlay. If one were instead to add a magical bugs whiteboard status or keyword that let a script know that there's an ebuild to pull from bugzilla that should be added to the there-be-dragons-here overlay, I'd think that would make life much simpler for everybody. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgpcquPFfyhuM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On 08/06/06, Jon Portnoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do very much object to using any gentoo.org infrastructure or subdomains to do so. If someone is going to tackle that, it should be done outside of Gentoo proper. We don't need to be stuck maintaining and supporting a semiofficial overlay. There are already loads of semi-official overlays. Besides the stuff actually hosted by gentoo (random example http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/bzr/overlay/) there are official groups (again, not picking on anyone but exampes would be java, php, webapps...) with semi-official overlays. I don't know if the overlays are actually hosted on gentoo hardware, but when they're run by gentoo devs, publically available, and referred to in forums, bugzilla, mailing lists etc. then that at least makes them semi-official. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Chris Bainbridge wrote: On 08/06/06, Jon Portnoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do very much object to using any gentoo.org infrastructure or subdomains to do so. If someone is going to tackle that, it should be done outside of Gentoo proper. We don't need to be stuck maintaining and supporting a semiofficial overlay. There are already loads of semi-official overlays. Besides the stuff actually hosted by gentoo (random example http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/bzr/overlay/) there are official groups (again, not picking on anyone but exampes would be java, php, webapps...) with semi-official overlays. I don't know if the overlays are actually hosted on gentoo hardware, but when they're run by gentoo devs, publically available, and referred to in forums, bugzilla, mailing lists etc. then that at least makes them semi-official. These overlays are completely controlled by Gentoo developers, which is what the overlays.gentoo.org was going to be, simply a single location for all these developer controlled overlays. This project is an overlay (un)controlled by random users, with no quality checks or any standards of any kind. This is fine for non-gentoo hosted stuff (like BMG), but hosting stuff like this on *.gentoo.org, and not having the use go through hoops to use it is probably not a good idea from either a security or QA standpoint. Currently 3rd party ebuilds can live in bugzilla, and the use must create their own overlay, and generate their own digests to use them. Making a user put this extra work into encourages users to be more careful, and hopefully look stuff over before using it. It also reinforces that the package is _unsupported_, hence discouraging them from filing any new bugs. Having a semi-official overlay where users can contribute ebuilds will open possible security problems (malicious commits) as well as be a QA/bug triaging nightmare as developers will have to figure out whether the ebuild the user is using came from the official overlay or the official tree. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Grant Goodyear wrote: Stefan Schweizer wrote: [Wed Jun 07 2006, 07:42:03PM CDT] Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. I'm not opposed to what would essentially be an overlay of maintainier-wanted ebuilds, but I would actually prefer to see that happen by pulling from the bugzilla database instead of trying to replace bugzilla altogether. My reasoning is that bugzilla provides a place for community development of an ebuild (including commentary!), which would not be true of just the overlay. If one were instead to add a magical bugs whiteboard status or keyword that let a script know that there's an ebuild to pull from bugzilla that should be added to the there-be-dragons-here overlay, I'd think that would make life much simpler for everybody. -g2boojum- FYI I've been tinkering with something similar using gentoo-bugger, but I haven't had time to work on it recently. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Hi, Both the current discussion as well as the overlay docs don't seem to cover the support topic as far i could see. This is an issue for us forums people though - our daily work involves classifying misplaced threads into officially supported (read: in the tree) and unsupported (someone installed some ebuild he found somewhere else) threads. The latter go into the Unsupported Software forum [1]. For now, we've added Bugs/errors caused by ebuilds from overlays.gentoo.org are covered by this forum, too. to the description of this forum because we think the primary objective of the forums is supporting officially supported ebuilds - those in the tree. I'm not saying it has to be/stay this way forever, but to be honest we are quite taken by surprise to have a new project appear that is both official(?) and unsupported(?) at the same time. So if at some time you intend to point the users of the overlay at the forums, please let them know the US-forum is the place to be. cheers, Wernfried [1] http://forums.gentoo.org/viewforum-f-51.html -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpRxjA9GTxsM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 17:48 +0100, Chris Bainbridge wrote: The time it takes to actually apply fixes etc. is another point. This is where I'd respectfully disagree. Bugzilla is a poor system for sharing and managing the flow of ebuilds and patches. It would be nice if there were a way for non-devs to publish ebuilds/fixes using a VCS so that they could be shared and easily pulled and applied to the main tree. It takes too long to browse bugzilla, find bugs, find ebuilds and patches, download them, copy to an overlay, fix digests, emerge, etc. and most users will figure it's not worth the hassle. You mean all of the things that developers have to do, right? Funny, but I thought the idea for the overlays was to groom developers, not to provide low-quality half-working ebuilds to users. Perhaps if we had a bug-tracking system that integrated better with a version control system, allowing for easier access to the ebuilds/patches/etc within a bug report, yet without providing a free for all as the current project suggests? I really don't know what kind of solution would be proper for this, but I do know that the current idea of an overlay for the entire tree is not something that should be taken lightly and definitely not something that should *ever* be done without discussion. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
My intention was to solve some parts with him directly and then send out some solutions but he wants to do everything on list, so I'm sending it out for you to know. -- LOGPOST -- [22:09:15] jokey so after reading your posts I get the impression you fear that this project will end up in some BMG overlay just with an official gentoo stamp on it. Am I right here? [22:10:22] wolf31o2|work please read what I said in #-releng [22:11:45] jokey Yes I want to do it public, maybe just attach a log of this to a mail sent to -dev afterwards. just want to avoid having that much emails just for seeking the issues instead of finding solutions for them [22:11:52] wolf31o2|work I think it is a bad idea [22:12:21] wolf31o2|work quite simply, when the overlays project was formed, this was something that was specifically said would never happen [22:12:41] wolf31o2|work I'm going to fight it tooth and nail, because I never would have accepted a project such as overlays if it was going to be abused like this [22:13:02] wolf31o2|work and please don't even say it won't be abused when there's already examples of it being done so [22:13:07] wolf31o2|work and the overlay just began [22:13:16] wolf31o2|work and that's really all I have to say about it [22:13:39] wolf31o2|work (sorry, I prefer my discussions on things that affect *everyone* be done completely in public) [22:14:31] jokey okay, I'll attach this then to a mail just that everybody knows about it then -- LOGPOST -- Greetz, Jokey signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Grant Goodyear wrote: Stefan Schweizer wrote: [Wed Jun 07 2006, 07:42:03PM CDT] My reasoning is that bugzilla provides a place for community development of an ebuild (including commentary!), which would not be true of just the overlay. If one were instead to add a magical bugs whiteboard status or keyword that let a script know that there's an ebuild to pull from bugzilla that should be added to the there-be-dragons-here overlay, I'd think that would make life much simpler for everybody. +1 -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
On Thu, 2006-06-08 at 22:20 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote: Grant Goodyear wrote: Stefan Schweizer wrote: [Wed Jun 07 2006, 07:42:03PM CDT] My reasoning is that bugzilla provides a place for community development of an ebuild (including commentary!), which would not be true of just the overlay. If one were instead to add a magical bugs whiteboard status or keyword that let a script know that there's an ebuild to pull from bugzilla that should be added to the there-be-dragons-here overlay, I'd think that would make life much simpler for everybody. +1 You mean like: REVIEWED ? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering - Strategic Lead x86 Architecture Team Games - Developer Gentoo Linux signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Chris Bainbridge wrote: On 08/06/06, foser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think the problem with maintainer-wanted ebuilds is that they are crappy, but that there is no dev willing to maintain them and ensure their quality over time. 'sunrise' (who came up with that name ? cheap asian poetry attempt) doesn't change that by adding it to an 'official' overlay. One of the problems is that developer interest is transitory. The current system suggests that a developer take personal responsibility for ebuilds they maintain, and they maintain them until another developer steps up. It would be nice (and I guess this is one of the aims of sunrise) if there were a way for people to contribute ebuilds that they are interested in at the time, but don't want to promise to maintain forever. Think about wikipedia - how many pages would there be if every page creator had to guarantee that they would maintain each page indefinately? The time it takes to actually apply fixes etc. is another point. Bugzilla is a poor system for sharing and managing the flow of ebuilds and patches. It would be nice if there were a way for non-devs to publish ebuilds/fixes using a VCS so that they could be shared and easily pulled and applied to the main tree. It takes too long to browse bugzilla, find bugs, find ebuilds and patches, download them, copy to an overlay, fix digests, emerge, etc. and most users will figure it's not worth the hassle. Yes, i agree, writting and maintaining ebuilds is a hard and *time-consuming* task. So if an user can't even take the time to fix a digest, why we should support him officially?. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Chris Bainbridge wrote: On 08/06/06, Jon Portnoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do very much object to using any gentoo.org infrastructure or subdomains to do so. If someone is going to tackle that, it should be done outside of Gentoo proper. We don't need to be stuck maintaining and supporting a semiofficial overlay. There are already loads of semi-official overlays. Besides the stuff actually hosted by gentoo (random example http://dev.gentoo.org/~flameeyes/bzr/overlay/) there are official groups (again, not picking on anyone but exampes would be java, php, webapps...) with semi-official overlays. I don't know if the overlays are actually hosted on gentoo hardware, but when they're run by gentoo devs, publically available, and referred to in forums, bugzilla, mailing lists etc. then that at least makes them semi-official. I don't agree with that semi-official term. We for example have an overlay for the Haskell project. Nevertheless, we consider it the official overlay for our group, but not for Gentoo. So that way we can use it as our sand-box, to play with it as much as we can, and giving commit access to even non-developers, the advantage with this model, is that at some degree we compromise ourselves as a group with the little base users who dare to test experimental stuff (that probably will *never* find its way into portage), but we keep Gentoo as project excluded from such a responsibility. And.. isn't that the real sense behind the overlay concept?, to have an official overlay wouldn't break the main goal of it?, and even more, an official maintainer-wanted overlay sounds more crazy to me. Regards, -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] [ANNOUNCE] Project Sunrise - Gentoo User Overlay
Hi, I have founded a new Gentoo Project for the Gentoo User Overlay. The intention is to give contributors a single place to put their ebuilds - a place where they can be downloaded, updated and be moved to portage more easily than through bugzilla. It is also a good place for users who would like to become developers to learn how to commit and how to not break the tree. You can find the project page as a subproject of the overlays project [1] The overlay is available on overlays.gentoo.org [2] Initially jokey and myself will be working on this. The current focus is to migrate ebuilds from bugzilla into the overlay and to get contributors to commit their changes to the overlay instead of updating the bugzilla every time. Anyone who wants to help, please stop by in #gentoo-overlays @ freenode [1] http://gentoo.org/proj/en/overlays/sunrise [2] http://overlays.gentoo.org/svn/proj/sunrise - Stefan PS: This is an announcement - No flamewars allowed -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
