Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On 20:46 Sun 13 Sep , Ryan Hill wrote: > On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:15:34 +0200 > Sebastian Pipping wrote: > > Ryan Hill wrote: > > > Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way. > > > > I was afraid it could be read in such a way. Handing out fake version > > numbers would be much easier, wouldn't it? I want every single package > > int he tree to be stable, up to date and polished. But as our resources > > are limited let's focus on packages that are most important first. > > That's actually what I meant by gaming the system. We could keep those > particular packages up to the minute, but it wouldn't reflect the state of > our distro as a whole. It's a false metric and I don't see the advantage in > pandering to it. It's much more important that our packages actually work > together than have the highest numbers. At the same time, we also want to ensure that any badly out-of-date packages on there aren't outliers that reflect poorly on our actual average status. And frankly, having any way to monitor popular yet outdated packages is a good thing. -- Thanks, Donnie Donnie Berkholz Developer, Gentoo Linux Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote: > Sebastian Pipping posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:00:03 +0200 as excerpted: > >> Duncan wrote: >>> [L]et's get some context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, >>> when compared to the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all >>> the time. >> I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born >> as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or >> Ubuntu). > > Not forgetting that, but perhaps forgetting how "unordinary" my own > experience was. I came from Mandrake, but researched Gentoo well enough > that I was already explaining portage basics based on the material in the > Handbook, etc, on the user list (and reading the dev list), before I even > had Gentoo installed. My first distro was also Mandrake. I eventually moved endlessly between Red Hat (before forking into Fedora) and Mandrake. The reason was the broken rpm package manager (and repo) which had a peculiar way of naming library .so names which interfered with my "hand-built" packages. I found Gentoo when a friend of mine told me there was a distro which was capable of producing CPU *optimized* code because all the packages were built from source. At the time (6~7 years ago?), I didn't have idea such distro could exist but that idea made sense and was left hard-coded in my head. That is when I read the *Gentoo philosophy* page (yes, there is people that reads it) and immediately got in love with it. That was Gentoo's biggest selling point for me. Then the handbook followed and you can probably guess the rest of the story. > > I like to think that if I can do it, everybody can, but regardless of > whether they /can/ or not, it's a fact that not everybody /does/, as > demonstrated by the fact that people were asking the questions I was > answering. I think it is not a matter of capable of doing it or not but rather matching one's needs. It is also a fact that most people *don't get it* when it comes to the question *why gentoo*. > > I /do/ sometimes forget /that/ end of it, that for whatever reason, not > everybody chooses to read the handbook, etc, even if it's ultimately only > making the job of sysadmining their own Gentoo boxen an order of > magnitude harder than it should be. > >> For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There >> is three different kinds, one is not in "the books" afaik and it's no >> fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so >> frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. The most confusing stuff for me was to learn all the GNU/Linux basics that I had as granted while using other distros. (...) Just my 2 cents about what mattered to *me* (and still matters) when I moved to Gentoo. -- Angelo Arrifano AKA MiKNiX Gentoo Embedded/OMAP850 Developer Linwizard Developer http://www.gentoo.org/~miknix http://miknix.homelinux.com
[gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Sebastian Pipping posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 22:00:03 +0200 as excerpted: > Duncan wrote: >> [L]et's get some context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, >> when compared to the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all >> the time. > > I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born > as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or > Ubuntu). Not forgetting that, but perhaps forgetting how "unordinary" my own experience was. I came from Mandrake, but researched Gentoo well enough that I was already explaining portage basics based on the material in the Handbook, etc, on the user list (and reading the dev list), before I even had Gentoo installed. I like to think that if I can do it, everybody can, but regardless of whether they /can/ or not, it's a fact that not everybody /does/, as demonstrated by the fact that people were asking the questions I was answering. I /do/ sometimes forget /that/ end of it, that for whatever reason, not everybody chooses to read the handbook, etc, even if it's ultimately only making the job of sysadmining their own Gentoo boxen an order of magnitude harder than it should be. > For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There > is three different kinds, one is not in "the books" afaik and it's no > fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so > frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. You have me wondering now what's "not in the books." I'd guess the three types of masking must be (entirely) unkeyworded, ~arch keyworded, and hard-masked (package.mask-ed), but again, unless that material has actually been /removed/ from the handbook since 2004, I was actually explaining all that to others even from my still Mandrake system, so it's /certainly/ in the books! And I don't need for autounmask, tho I do run ~arch. But the thing is, if people are running enough individual ~arch packages so handling it manually is difficult enough they need a tool for it, from my viewpoint, they should seriously consider running ~arch anyway, since stable is tested, and ~arch is somewhat tested, but nobody much tests a half-and- half system nor could it be practically so in any case since there's just too many millions of variants there to test, so trying to run such a half- and-half system is really asking for more trouble than trying to run a full ~arch system. But with a few small refinements over the years as Gentoo and its FLOSS environment have changed, again, that's very close to the same position and explanation I took from the very beginning, while I was still working on my first install. > Seriously, stuff like the layman setup mess is another tiny reason > keeping our user base smaller than needed, keeping our recruiting rates > down. I guess I just don't see it. There's a reason the packages on the overlays aren't yet part of the tree, because in general, either the ebuilds (if not the upstream packages) aren't yet mature enough to be in- tree (at least unmasked, in-tree), or they're community ebuilds, not Gentoo-dev vetted ones. Keeping that distinction, for the protection of both Gentoo and its users, is a deliberate policy. Those who are mature enough to handle the risks of overlays can get them with little problem, while those newbies who self-evidently are NOT mature enough in their Gentoo usage to properly handle the risk (or it'd not be a problem for them in the first place since they'd be comfortable with the tools and how to use them), are by deliberate policy, kept away from the additional risk and danger. Other than minor refinements here or there, I just don't see how that can or should be changed, unless we're simply deciding that policy is wrong- headed, so damn the torpedoes headed for our users, full steam ahead, let them at them! -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
[gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 14:15:34 +0200 Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Ryan Hill wrote: > > Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way. > > I was afraid it could be read in such a way. Handing out fake version > numbers would be much easier, wouldn't it? I want every single package > int he tree to be stable, up to date and polished. But as our resources > are limited let's focus on packages that are most important first. That's actually what I meant by gaming the system. We could keep those particular packages up to the minute, but it wouldn't reflect the state of our distro as a whole. It's a false metric and I don't see the advantage in pandering to it. It's much more important that our packages actually work together than have the highest numbers. > > Also, screw DW. > > I'd be interested to hear details about your attitude off-list. Sorry, bad way of putting what Jesús later said; we're not in competition. DistroWatch scores are the least of our worries. -- fonts, Character is what you are in the dark. gcc-porting, wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662 signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Alex Legler wrote: > On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:08:38 -0500, Dale wrote: > > >> As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see >> the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem >> before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the >> forums and I would have no idea they happened. >> >> > > That might be /your personal/ behavior. > May be true but someone else mentioned that back when I was going to the forums. I hadn't thought of it until then. > >> Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing >> lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even >> know the mailing lists exists. >> >> > > Do the poll in the Forums. Advertise it on planet, some MLs, maybe the > g.o front page, and on IRC. > That way we reach the users that don't go to the forums, but are on > IRC, and the folks that are on the forums but don't know of the MLs and > vice-versa. > > Of course there'll be still people that don't know anything about the > thing, but *shrug*. Those who care, know. And those who don't care, > don't need to know, we have made our effort to reach people. > > >> I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means >> is used. >> > > Maybe that is something we just need to live with. Guess all the other > people who do Internet polls do. > > Besides, what can we lose? I don't think Sebastian would mind > preparing and posting the survey. A little more community participation > and a little less time spent talking instead of doing would do us good. > > Alex > I agree that you can only put forth your best effort. I just wouldn't etch the results in stone. Maybe a pencil would be OK tho. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 17:08:38 -0500, Dale wrote: > As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see > the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem > before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the > forums and I would have no idea they happened. > That might be /your personal/ behavior. > Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing > lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even > know the mailing lists exists. > Do the poll in the Forums. Advertise it on planet, some MLs, maybe the g.o front page, and on IRC. That way we reach the users that don't go to the forums, but are on IRC, and the folks that are on the forums but don't know of the MLs and vice-versa. Of course there'll be still people that don't know anything about the thing, but *shrug*. Those who care, know. And those who don't care, don't need to know, we have made our effort to reach people. > I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means > is used. Maybe that is something we just need to live with. Guess all the other people who do Internet polls do. Besides, what can we lose? I don't think Sebastian would mind preparing and posting the survey. A little more community participation and a little less time spent talking instead of doing would do us good. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Alex Legler wrote: > On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:25:19 -0500, Dale wrote: > > >> Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of >> those. >> >> > > They are in the web server logs. Apache includes them in the "combined" > log format, or you can add them in a custom log format. > > So cooperation with Infra is required for this sort of analysis. > > >> Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to >> do and not very accurate? >> > > I fail to see the difficulty of both creating and filling out a survey > on a forums post. > Also, accuracy is always an issue when doing online surveys as people > can submit it multiple times, and there's always the kids that just > click something out of boredom. Don't think that problem is specific to > Gentoo polls. > > Alex > As has been said before, a lot of people don't go to the forums to see the poll. I only go to the forums to search if I have a problem before posting to the list. There may have been a dozen polls on the forums and I would have no idea they happened. Of course, the same could be said about doing a poll on the mailing lists as well. Some Gentoo users that use the forums may not even know the mailing lists exists. I'm not sure any poll could really be accurate no matter which means is used. Add in the kids you thought of and it just adds more confusion. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 13 Sep 2009 16:25:19 -0500, Dale wrote: > > Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of > those. > They are in the web server logs. Apache includes them in the "combined" log format, or you can add them in a custom log format. So cooperation with Infra is required for this sort of analysis. > Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to > do and not very accurate? I fail to see the difficulty of both creating and filling out a survey on a forums post. Also, accuracy is always an issue when doing online surveys as people can submit it multiple times, and there's always the kids that just click something out of boredom. Don't think that problem is specific to Gentoo polls. Alex signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Sebastian Pipping wrote: > Dale wrote: > >> Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to >> Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. >> > > - analysing referrer logs > - doing polls > > > > sebastian > > > Where are these referrer logs? I don't recall ever doing one of those. Hasn't it been said before that Gentoo polls are pretty difficult to do and not very accurate? Only very few would respond to a poll. Most would not even know the was going on. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote: > Agreed. Yes, overlays are perhaps a bit more trouble to setup than > simply maintaining normal tree updates once setup. But let's get some > context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, when compared to > the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all the time. Gentoo has > never been about spoon-feeding and this is no exception. Layman is a > great and powerful tool, certainly, and like any powerful tool, it takes > a bit of learning to use, before even the user should trust himself with > it. =:^) But that's more true of Gentoo itself than it is of layman, and > anyone who can manage Gentoo can certainly manage layman with little > trouble. I think you forget about the learning curve: Gentoo users are not born as Gentoo users. They are coming from other distros (say Debian or Ubuntu). For me it was unmasking that confused me a lot in the beginning. There is three different kinds, one is not in "the books" afaik and it's no fun to me to do. I guess without autounmask by now I would be so frustrated to not use Gentoo anymore. Seriously, stuff like the layman setup mess is another tiny reason keeping our user base smaller than needed, keeping our recruiting rates down. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Dale wrote: > Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to > Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. - analysing referrer logs - doing polls sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Albert Hopkins wrote: > On Sun, 2009-09-13 at 09:36 -0500, Dale wrote: > Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from >> Distrowatch. >> Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the >> usual >> binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing. > > >> - - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1 >> but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see >> what >> else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am, >> years later using Gentoo. >> > > What do our market research people tell us? ;-) > > -a > > Good question. How would a person know if distrowatch leads people to Gentoo or not? It's not like there is really any way to find out. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sun, 2009-09-13 at 09:36 -0500, Dale wrote: > >> Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from > Distrowatch. > >> Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the > usual > >> binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing. > - - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1 > but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see > what > else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am, > years later using Gentoo. What do our market research people tell us? ;-) -a
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Duncan wrote:
> Jesús Guerrero posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:11:42 +0200 as excerpted:
>
>
>> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:02:44 +0200, Sebastian Pipping
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a
>>> table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is
>>> per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first
>>> places people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about,
>>> besides Wikpedia and ${distro}.org.
>>>
>> Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from Distrowatch.
>> Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the usual
>> binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing.
>>
>
> ++
>
>
- - I came here because of distrowatch. I started with Mandrake 9.1
but didn't like the upgrade process. I went to distrowatch to see what
else I could find to use. I found about about Gentoo and here I am,
years later using Gentoo.
Dale
:-) :-)
[gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Jesús Guerrero posted on Sun, 13 Sep 2009 11:11:42 +0200 as excerpted:
> On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:02:44 +0200, Sebastian Pipping
> wrote:
>>
>> Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a
>> table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is
>> per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first
>> places people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about,
>> besides Wikpedia and ${distro}.org.
>
> Seriously, I doubt that the average Gentoo user comes from Distrowatch.
> Gentoo is born from a necessity which is very different from the usual
> binary distro. Gentoo has never been about fame or marketing.
++
[package listing of not in Gentoo tree or way outdated]
>> Miro
>> .. Not in official tree (yet?), available through an Overlay
>>
>> xmms
>> .. Removed for security reasons, available through an Overlay
>>
>> Maybe we should move Miro to the main tree?
>
> Most Gentoo users will have no problem to use overlays as they need
> them.
Agreed. Yes, overlays are perhaps a bit more trouble to setup than
simply maintaining normal tree updates once setup. But let's get some
context here. layman's no difficulty at all, really, when compared to
the ordinary stuff we expect Gentoo users to do all the time. Gentoo has
never been about spoon-feeding and this is no exception. Layman is a
great and powerful tool, certainly, and like any powerful tool, it takes
a bit of learning to use, before even the user should trust himself with
it. =:^) But that's more true of Gentoo itself than it is of layman, and
anyone who can manage Gentoo can certainly manage layman with little
trouble.
> If we had more developers we could as maintain more packages, as
> simple as that.
Indeed.
> Besides that, if you want some new version, you are free to use
> bugs.gentoo.org to submit a bug, version bump, or whatever.
I'm not so sure about this. Sure, one can submit a bug, but would that
have done any good on, say, kde4, one popular overlay people use,
particularly during the period that portage didn't work with it? What
about the kde sets? Would they be allowed in the tree just based on a
bug? The obvious answer is no, and there's good reasons for it.
I can see the argument both ways for putting stuff like that in the main
tree -- masked, of course, and possibly in an obscure location that the
PMs could ignore unless configured otherwise. Personally, I'd like to
see more of it in the main tree, hard-masked when necessary, instead of
in the overlays. But I have a strong suspicion I'd feel otherwise if I
were one of the devs tasked with getting packages like that, particularly
huge interrelated conglomerations of packages like that, actually into
some sort of usable working (for ordinary Gentoo users. altho as I said
above, they're already a cut above ordinary users) shape.
--
Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs.
"Every nonfree program has a lord, a master --
and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
Ryan Hill wrote: > Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way. I was afraid it could be read in such a way. Handing out fake version numbers would be much easier, wouldn't it? I want every single package int he tree to be stable, up to date and polished. But as our resources are limited let's focus on packages that are most important first. > Also, screw DW. I'd be interested to hear details about your attitude off-list. Sebastian
[gentoo-dev] Re: DistroWatch and Gentoo packages: status quo and future
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 01:02:44 +0200
Sebastian Pipping wrote:
> Among other information the Gentoo page at DistroWatch [1] displays a
> table on about 200 selected packages [2] and how up to date Gentoo is
> per package. I assume that DistroWatch is still one of the first places
> people go to get a feeling for a Distro they heard about, besides
> Wikpedia and ${distro}.org.
>
> The freshness of these 200 packages have influence on how people
> perceive Gentoo on DistroWatch. While the tree as a whole is what we
> should keep as up to date as possible keeping these 200 packages (list
> further down) up to date can therefore be of particular importance.
Personally I don't see how gaming the system helps us in any way.
Also, screw DW.
--
fonts, Character is what you are in the dark.
gcc-porting,
wxwidgets @ gentoo EFFD 380E 047A 4B51 D2BD C64F 8AA8 8346 F9A4 0662
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