Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 10/20/2018 04:05 AM, Mikle Kolyada wrote: > > ... > Ok, thanks for clarifying. I wanted to be sure that I wasn't getting anyone into trouble by suggesting that they look into the quizzes (if they are really willing to put in the effort).
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 20.10.2018 03:33, Michael Orlitzky wrote: > On 10/13/2018 02:32 PM, Mikle Kolyada wrote: >> Quizzes are irrelevant, a person does the quizzes when he/she is >> ready to be the dev, doing quizzes for quizzes or quizzes to become a >> developer is the best way to get rejected by the recruiters team. > I thought this was kind of a strange thing to say, but just ignored > it... not realizing that you were the recruiters lead. Well, people know that recruiters have the opinion about quizzes, so they think it is pointless to discuss :) > > Why do you say that working on the quizzes will get you rejected? I had > a very positive experience while taking them and learned a lot. The main problem is that lots of (not all) people think, if they have quizzes done, they are ready to be developers, some of them even think if they copy-pasted the answer and give us the quote it is ok and they will pass. The answer for both statements is no. > I've > recommended them to potential contributors in the past as a way to > highlight the areas where they might need to improve, and to generally > improve their knowledge of the devmanual. Quzzes are being treated as an obstacle to be a dev, like "wow, I have to answer so much questions to be the dev, I have no time for this". The short answer is: "if you have no time to fill quizzes you are not ready to be the dev", people who are ready spend very little amount of time filling them with zero difficulty. > > Once the new developer finds a mentor, I would think it saves everyone > valuable time if he has a first draft of the quiz prepared. > signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 10/13/2018 02:32 PM, Mikle Kolyada wrote: > > Quizzes are irrelevant, a person does the quizzes when he/she is > ready to be the dev, doing quizzes for quizzes or quizzes to become a > developer is the best way to get rejected by the recruiters team. I thought this was kind of a strange thing to say, but just ignored it... not realizing that you were the recruiters lead. Why do you say that working on the quizzes will get you rejected? I had a very positive experience while taking them and learned a lot. I've recommended them to potential contributors in the past as a way to highlight the areas where they might need to improve, and to generally improve their knowledge of the devmanual. Once the new developer finds a mentor, I would think it saves everyone valuable time if he has a first draft of the quiz prepared.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On Tue, Oct 16, 2018 at 3:14 PM Ralph Seichter wrote: > > I followed the PHP team's recommendation, as can be seen from the PR > conversation and from the underlying Bugzilla report. While I respect > Michał Górny's opinion, I understand that he does not have a deciding > vote in this case. He said as much himself in his comment - he wasn't acting on behalf of QA or anything like that. My guess is that both of these requests are probably just waiting for a maintainer/etc to do something, which is probably a typical situation. I'm not sure which projects typically let proxy-maintainers directly commit vs wanting to do it themselves. I don't think mgorny's feedback is going to hold anything up except to the degree that others on the appropriate team happen to agree, but if that were the case I'd expect them to just change the commit accordingly. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 16.10.18 20:25, Virgil Dupras wrote: > Maybe I can try to explain why your 3 PRs [1] are still opened. Thank you, I appreciate that, but let me repeat that my question about helping with PRs was not meant as criticism. > The "skel.ebuild" one is easy: global changes have to be discussed on > gentoo-dev. [...] You'll find that I only mentioned two open PRs of mine, because I took the skel.ebuild PR deliberately out of consideration. The conversation in that PR made it clear that it is a larger issue, to be handled by QA. No surprise there, let it simmer. ;-) > The milter-regex one is, I think, a result of miscommunicating intent. > [...] Someone from that project [2] is going to have merge it, not > zlogene. Ah, that's news to me. Should the PR then be assigned to the Net-Mail project in a publicly visible way? I'd like to see this merged, because it introduces a new milter-regex feature, one which I asked for and the author was kind enough to implement (and I also helped him to test it). > it's completely understandable that you expect a timely response to > your correction, but ultimately, you'll have to nudge someone from > the net-mail project. I had no idea that it is my responsibility to move this PR along. I had naively assumed that once a Proxy Maintainer project member had reviewed it, as it happened here, the process would continue without me unless more changes were asked for later on. Can you please tell me how I best hand this pull request to the Net-Mail team? > Then, we're left with your nginx-unit PR, which is part of the > proxy-maint program. In this case, we have mgorny who doesn't > seem to like your PR. I followed the PHP team's recommendation, as can be seen from the PR conversation and from the underlying Bugzilla report. While I respect Michał Górny's opinion, I understand that he does not have a deciding vote in this case. Michał may not fully agree with what the PHP team recommended, but I was told he's in the Python team. Let me quote from a conversation with Michael Orlitzky here (I have permission): [Michał is] probably just busy. His last comment didn't sound like he was strongly against it. He's probably thinking of it in terms of python (he's on the python team), where things are set up a bit better. With python stuff, PYTHON_TARGETS says what versions of python you want to use with the thing you're building. For example, you would probably use PYTHON_TARGETS if you wanted to support multiple python versions in nginx-unit. In that case, it's fine -- that's what PYTHON_TARGETS is for. We don't have a variable like that for PHP ebuilds. If you install some PHP code and switch to an interpreter that it doesn't work with... sorry, it'll just crash. Fixing that (like python/ruby do it) would be a huge effort and there's just not enough people interested in PHP. A long time ago, though, we needed a variable that let us build *extensions* for specific versions of PHP (this problem is a little easier to solve), aThe PHP team at the time stole the name *_TARGETS from python, even though it's not quite the same thing. Which brings us to why Michal is probably thinking PHP_TARGETS is what you want. It doesn't do the same thing as PYTHON_TARGETS, though. Feel free to quote me on any of this =) Again, I understand and respect that not everybody has the same view on things. I asked for the PHP team's advice, followed it, and if a third party does not agree, it does not bother me much. That's why there are different teams, after all. It is good that Michał Górny communicated his concerns, but he's the only person who spoke up and had no better alternative to offer. The modified ebuild (based on my own original) works fine, and I'd be glad to see this moved along. There was a bug filed for the lack of PHP support, and the PR also bumps the revision to the latest production release, made approx. one month ago. > As I hope to have demonstrated, there is no ill intent or even > negligence in the result that you observe. I had not suspected negligence or malice, but I am grateful for your explanations. I learned more about the process today. Thank you, Virgil. -Ralph
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
Virgil Dupras schrieb am Di., 16. Okt. 2018 um 20:26 Uhr: > > Maybe I can try to explain why your 3 PRs [1] are still opened. > > Regards, > Virgil > > [1]: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pulls/rseichter > [2]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Net-Mail +1 Thanks a lot for this post Virgil. For me it made some things a lot clearer and more tolerable. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEKbqdX3+q71mbfP1xLiRqTnFapoMFAlu7OCEACgkQLiRqTnFa poNFsw//biiEGzWLCUZLsdk1hm2zWrvPlCH877La1bLV/xuqFGs/y4X3Nv4CLX4g 5NWzgWdC1cLDD9hRbY+MM5U1GQjDX1E4rC5c12sA23n4cn0STM97LL4ofYZasBGV 2vIAhkJe+KwFuGhpprjGBqZAbizB2q5ymfNfNUycJxcyadt2Uq52iEheOBNpAIXB apout3xQlZG+7QRsiqbpOY+UoTPPZJPUNs24YCbBXHUg+8qNnNhvjrleFleWOtOl U814TOZQSebgUt6IOdVZm3M1tjZSVIgSHvGsWf70zDqLHQW6h5rgp3C6Ie59J9L8 5hPptR01Fu3SiYOQSW1gj1NRZkFZljjWLMGdI21ZA8cQbyqKKo51YLnPETevV17r OzAE03na0wMxUdXyZMbh5ZykyH9HaSBKSG4Cpbx1ukq2421w8DHgbuW0yN7xyRDY 3KGtBhYPF3P78vhOQONVsCLGq3JWNIHoDWJYaZ9h2Cj1i5RZBN3VoDmMwZq5omdL Dpbe7y2L2kZRI3qKeg9jQggyjtokyt/usNTAICLDRqWd+Zrqj9HHcgGvKJumGj9m 5JIJeKGl0JwrtvpUHPBh/W27Aium60NylXKxL0biWLHkOLEXVklxEYsdE5s7IZgy E6ZHEpA55qC64JLkRWh3P+jN4qaLED+QUF856L3+wmhNePMrmSo= =+sCv -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 20:18:06 +0200 Ralph Seichter wrote: > Glancing at my own open pull requests, it looks different (opened 15 and > 25 days ago, respectively). That is not meant as criticism; it just seems > to me that the team members who process PRs have a lot on their plates. Maybe I can try to explain why your 3 PRs [1] are still opened. The "skel.ebuild" one is easy: global changes have to be discussed on gentoo-dev. That the mailing list was recently whitelisted makes this harder than it should for non-devs. I believe such PRs take us by surprise and we don't have an efficient process for them. Areas for enhancement. The milter-regex one is, I think, a result of miscommunicating intent. zlogene does a great job on PRs by going over nearly all of them to catch obvious style problems. That you corrected them is good, but it doesn't mean that it's going to be merged anytime soon because this package is a net-mail package. Someone from that project [2] is going to have merge it, not zlogene. This is a tricky problem because it's completely understandable that you expect a timely response to your correction, but ultimately, you'll have to nudge someone from the net-mail project. But to know why you don't get a timely response, you need to intimately understand Gentoo's inner dynamics, which you can't. So, you think we rudely ignore you. But we don't, you're just lost in a Kafkaesque maze! Then, we're left with your nginx-unit PR, which is part of the proxy-maint program. Normally, those are well handled. In this case, we have mgorny who doesn't seem to like your PR. Devs tend to trust mgorny's judgement. It doesn't mean that he's right in this instance, but it adds a level of difficulty to the PR. The next dev to review this PR will have to be extra thorough with it if it's going to infirm mgorny's judgement. This places it in the "tricky PRs" mental bucket for, I guess, many proxy-maint members and it means that easier PRs will be processed before it. Sorry, it seems that you picked a tough package to be proxied-maintainer for. As I hope to have demonstrated, there is no ill intent or even negligence in the result that you observe. It's just that our processes are complex and far from perfect, and the workload, significant. In the end, I think, the best thing to do in most cases is to ping a dev after a reasonable timeout. We're mostly well intended and will take steps to minimize frustrations when we're made aware of them. Regards, Virgil [1]: https://github.com/gentoo/gentoo/pulls/rseichter [2]: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Net-Mail pgpeHWvdV6kHH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
October 14, 2018 8:17 PM, "Andreas K. Huettel" wrote: >> I've always considered the entry barrier to become a dev too much work for >> keeping a small involvement. I might just be lazy or not interested enough >> I agree. Still I must not be the only one. I might also just have a wrong >> impression of what's needed. > > Well, in the end the quizzes mostly reflect what you're supposed to know as a > dev. If you are ready to become one, writing them down shouldn't take more > than a day. > > (Hey, even if not, researching the answers and writing a first version down > shouldn't take more than a day.) I mostly agree, though I never quite understood why "ebuild quizz" seemed to be a lot about Gentoo social infrastructure + some technical questions and the "end quizz" seemed to be the actual ebuild quizz. I’m not knowledgeable enough yet I believe, but I’m not interested in getting the knowledge about comrel/council/foundation because I don’t care right now. I may revise my judgement in a year or ten. ;) Anyway it is probably more about how it sounds from an external point of view than about how it is, I am not that much invested in Gentoo. Corentin “Nado” Pazdera
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
> I've always considered the entry barrier to become a dev too much work for > keeping a small involvement. I might just be lazy or not interested enough > I agree. Still I must not be the only one. I might also just have a wrong > impression of what's needed. Well, in the end the quizzes mostly reflect what you're supposed to know as a dev. If you are ready to become one, writing them down shouldn't take more than a day. (Hey, even if not, researching the answers and writing a first version down shouldn't take more than a day.) -- Andreas K. Hüttel dilfri...@gentoo.org Gentoo Linux developer (council, toolchain, perl, libreoffice, comrel) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 13/10/2018 15.31, Tomas Mozes wrote: > You can review the PRs and try to remove common errors before the devs > check it. Then they don't have to correct the same mistakes again. I don't > mean you do the corrections, you just suggest them to the PR authors so > they probably won't repeat them again. > > Common stuff like: > - using latest eapi (at least for new pkgs)? > - correct distfile name? > - proxy maint project in metadata? > - correct, sorted deps? > - slot operators for rebuilds? > - working tests if possible? > - patches from reliable sources? > - using || die after commands? > - reusing eclasseses instead of custom solutions? > - openrc/systemd done right? > - is it secure? > - you name it... :) > > Maybe we could script some of these to help too. > This is my list of most frequent comments on new ebuilds: * Please test the ebuild with repoman full -d -x https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Repoman * We always try to use the latest EAPI, please bump to EAPI=7 * Please remove obsolete lines * KEYWORDS need ~ after a version bump run ekeyword ~all YOUREBUILD * please fix the header. (see /usr/portage/skel.ebuild and https://devmanual.gentoo.org/ebuild-writing/eapi/) * We usually sort the KEYWORDS as ekeywords does. This makes comparison between packages easier. Simply run ekeywords on the ebuild to let it sort. * Please be more specific in the DESCRIPTION. The objective description may be <=80 characters long. * Please introduce local variables with "local" * A bot can look for additional mistakes, if you upload a PR via github You could create a checklist on the wiki. Some of these tests can be done by repoman -- Best, Jonas signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 13.10.2018 15:59, James Le Cuirot wrote: [snip] > Such contributions also frequently have issues as the authors have not done > the developer quizzes. We try to guide contributors through the > necessary changes but this can lead to fatigue on both sides. Quizzes are irrelevant, a person does the quizzes when he/she is ready to be the dev, doing quizzes for quizzes or quizzes to become a developer is the best way to get rejected by the recruiters team. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 8:59 AM James Le Cuirot wrote: > > On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:28:02 +0200 > Ralph Seichter wrote: > > > Is there any way I could help the Gentoo team? Any vacancies that need > > to be filled, or work that needs to be done? > > Following what I said above, we need more actual bona fide developers > who have done the quizzes, understand the issues, can most important > can take responsibility for their own contributions. > > There is the proxy maintainers project, where we can accept > contributions with a little less scrutiny, but I personally feel that > these contributors really should just become developers. It doesn't > matter if you're only interested in one or two packages, any help is > very welcome. > I have to imagine that while waiting to become a dev (or not), it would still be useful if contributors would like to skim pull requests and find ways to contribute to them. If a dev has pointed out an issue with a pull request, consider offering a patch to fix the issue. If a pull request hasn't been looked at, consider looking at it and offering patches to resolve any issues you see. Sure, ultimately a dev still has to review/commit, but I imagine any help with triage will just make their life easier, which means they'll be able to get more commits into the actual tree. And of course all the skills you would use to clean up pull requests are for the most part the same ones you'll need to become a dev. Also, reading a bunch of dev comments about quality issues with pull requests will make you aware of the kinds of QA issues people routinely run into, and you'll be less likely to create the same problems. In my experience the best way to get accepted as a committer in just about any kind of FOSS project is to basically do just this. Sooner or later you'll be noticed and short-listed. You'll also rub shoulders with people who are likely to become mentors, and since recruiter availability is limited they're going to be bound to focus on applicants who are active already. -- Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 13.10.18 20:00, Michał Górny wrote: > For example, in the recent period proxy-maint's backlog didn't really > go beyond 7 days, and we're rather capable of getting through it all. Glancing at my own open pull requests, it looks different (opened 15 and 25 days ago, respectively). That is not meant as criticism; it just seems to me that the team members who process PRs have a lot on their plates. > ~200 open pull requests is a really small number given the size of > Gentoo. You can easily find many projects having 1000-1 open pull > requests. 200 as an absolute number does not sound like too much, but it all depends on how many people process those PRs, and how much time they need to spend doing it. -Ralph
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On Sat, 2018-10-13 at 13:28 +0200, Ralph Seichter wrote: > Looking at the number of open pull requests (some of them my own), I > wonder if Gentoo has become a bit of a victim of its own success as far > as contributions are concerned. It's not really as much problem as it seems. For example, in the recent period proxy-maint's backlog didn't really go beyond 7 days, and we're rather capable of getting through it all. The large number of open PRs is mostly due to: a. PRs waiting for the submitter to update them (sadly, including some 'throwaway' submissions), b. PRs waiting for package maintainer to respond (sadly, we have many developers who ignore submissions on GitHub). Even then, ~200 open pull requests is a really small number given the size of Gentoo. You can easily find many projects having 1000-1 open pull requests. -- Best regards, Michał Górny signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 13.10.2018 14:57, Thomas Deutschmann wrote: > Looking forward to see your Gentoo developer bug in near future! :-) I've sent an application to the recruiters' email address. We shall see what they think. ;-) -Ralph
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On 13.10.18 14:57, Thomas Deutschmann wrote: > Please read https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/become-developer/ I already did that months ago. ;-) At that time, I was not certain if I had enough spare time to become involved enough to make going through the process of becoming a Gentoo developer worthwhile. I have contributed some PRs, and brought in www-servers/nginx-unit as a new package, for which I am designated proxy maintainer [1]. If there was an experienced team member willing to be my mentor, I'd be willing to take the next steps towards developer status. [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/661450 -Ralph
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
You can review the PRs and try to remove common errors before the devs check it. Then they don't have to correct the same mistakes again. I don't mean you do the corrections, you just suggest them to the PR authors so they probably won't repeat them again. Common stuff like: - using latest eapi (at least for new pkgs)? - correct distfile name? - proxy maint project in metadata? - correct, sorted deps? - slot operators for rebuilds? - working tests if possible? - patches from reliable sources? - using || die after commands? - reusing eclasseses instead of custom solutions? - openrc/systemd done right? - is it secure? - you name it... :) Maybe we could script some of these to help too.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
October 13, 2018 3:00 PM, "James Le Cuirot" wrote: > On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:28:02 +0200 > Ralph Seichter wrote: > >> Looking at the number of open pull requests (some of them my own), I >> wonder if Gentoo has become a bit of a victim of its own success as far >> as contributions are concerned. > > I've said as much, at least with regards to the addition of GitHub. The > problem is that maintainers are not supposed to just blindly merge > contributions but they often lack the time to test them. Such > contributions also frequently have issues as the authors have not done > the developer quizzes. We try to guide contributors through the > necessary changes but this can lead to fatigue on both sides. > >> Is there any way I could help the Gentoo team? Any vacancies that need >> to be filled, or work that needs to be done? > > Following what I said above, we need more actual bona fide developers > who have done the quizzes, understand the issues, can most important > can take responsibility for their own contributions. > > There is the proxy maintainers project, where we can accept > contributions with a little less scrutiny, but I personally feel that > these contributors really should just become developers. It doesn't > matter if you're only interested in one or two packages, any help is > very welcome. I've always considered the entry barrier to become a dev too much work for keeping a small involvement. I might just be lazy or not interested enough I agree. Still I must not be the only one. I might also just have a wrong impression of what's needed. Couldnt it be possible to create more granulars levels of involvement? Corentin “Nado” Pazdera
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
On Sat, 13 Oct 2018 13:28:02 +0200 Ralph Seichter wrote: > Looking at the number of open pull requests (some of them my own), I > wonder if Gentoo has become a bit of a victim of its own success as far > as contributions are concerned. I've said as much, at least with regards to the addition of GitHub. The problem is that maintainers are not supposed to just blindly merge contributions but they often lack the time to test them. Such contributions also frequently have issues as the authors have not done the developer quizzes. We try to guide contributors through the necessary changes but this can lead to fatigue on both sides. > Is there any way I could help the Gentoo team? Any vacancies that need > to be filled, or work that needs to be done? Following what I said above, we need more actual bona fide developers who have done the quizzes, understand the issues, can most important can take responsibility for their own contributions. There is the proxy maintainers project, where we can accept contributions with a little less scrutiny, but I personally feel that these contributors really should just become developers. It doesn't matter if you're only interested in one or two packages, any help is very welcome. -- James Le Cuirot (chewi) Gentoo Linux Developer pgpWazCL7rBqk.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
Hi, in the end, only Gentoo developer can help because they have to do the final review and are the only one who can merge. But you can become a Gentoo developer! Please read https://www.gentoo.org/get-involved/become-developer/ As Gentoo developer you could join Gentoo's Proxy Maintainers project and deal with all those pull requests. Looking forward to see your Gentoo developer bug in near future! :-) -- Regards, Thomas Deutschmann / Gentoo Linux Developer C4DD 695F A713 8F24 2AA1 5638 5849 7EE5 1D5D 74A5 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
[gentoo-dev] Is there any way I can help with pull requests?
Looking at the number of open pull requests (some of them my own), I wonder if Gentoo has become a bit of a victim of its own success as far as contributions are concerned. Is there any way I could help the Gentoo team? Any vacancies that need to be filled, or work that needs to be done? -Ralph
