Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:01 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand  wrote:
> On 12/05/2017 11:41 PM, Kristian Fiskerstrand wrote:
>> On 12/05/2017 11:37 PM, Rich Freeman wrote:
>>> Honestly, I'm not really a big fan of even on-topic posts from people
>>> who have caused a lot of harm to others in private.  I'm not sure
>>> which is the lesser evil but do we really want a community where we
>>> tolerate absolutely any kind of abuse of other members?
>>
>> We do not, but that presumes actual abuse has been demonstrated.
>> "spamming the mailing list", where the posts are regarding Gentoo, isn't
>> automatically abuse because some people are uncomfortable about the
>> information being presented, or they disagree with it.
>>
>
> This whole email thread is actually one of the examples of where split
> lists is a bad thing, the original message was cross-posted between
> gentoo-project and gentoo-dev with a reply-to for gentoo-dev. Resulting
> in split discussions across the lists. The overall discussion should've
> been in -project to begin with.
>

Certainly, though if our lists actually were moderated it would be a
non-issue because all the replies to the off-topic list would have
been deleted.

Mailing lists aren't great for moderation in general though, because
it is impossible to delete a post after it has been distributed.  In a
forum something like this would be easily solved by just moving the
thread to the right place, deleting posts after the fact, and so on.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Nils Freydank]

Am Montag, 4. Dezember 2017, 18:02:21 CET schrieb Michał Górny:
> W dniu pon, 04.12.2017 o godzinie 14∶18 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
> 
> Ochtman napisał:
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> [...]
> 
> I'm all for it, as long as someone is actually going to do the necessary
> work within the next, say, 4 weeks. I'd really like to avoid once again
> having no resolution whatsoever just to wait for never-to-come upgrade.
> 
> I should point out that this includes:
> [...]
> 2. Establishing a clear policy on how moderation should be performed.
> Without a clear policy, the effects could be far worse than status quo.
I’m working on a draft for a ruleset and will send it to the list (as a new 
thread). However, this may take until the end of this week.

> 3. Establishing a good and trusted moderators team. Normally I'd say
> ComRel could do that but given their inability to react within the last
> year...
> 
> So, anyone volunteering to do the work?
I would do it, but IMHO it’s inappropriate if I would do that as a non-dev/
normal user.

-- 
GPG fingerprint: '766B 8122 1342 6912 3401 492A 8B54 D7A3 FF3C DB17'
Holgersson

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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Michał Górny]

W dniu pon, 04.12.2017 o godzinie 14∶18 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
Ochtman napisał:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> 
> > > On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it
> > 
> > be
> > > better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, moderators
> > 
> > who
> > > move problematic user's posts to moderated by default, and then withhold
> > > the specific posts if necessary?
> > 
> > I don't think this is really technically feasible. I don't know if mlmmj
> > has the specific feature you're asking for, and even if it did,
> > moderation with mlmmj is practically impossible to use. Even for low-
> > traffic channel like gentoo-dev-announce@ it's not working well.
> > 
> 
> Maybe we should move to a more modern list manager? I'm pretty sure mailman
> can do this kind of stuff trivially. It feels bad if we have to institute
> suboptimal processes due to crappy tooling, if better alternatives are
> readily available.
> 

I'm all for it, as long as someone is actually going to do the necessary
work within the next, say, 4 weeks. I'd really like to avoid once again
having no resolution whatsoever just to wait for never-to-come upgrade.

I should point out that this includes:

1. Switch to another mailing list software without breaking stuff. This
needs someone from Infra really willing and being able to do it.

2. Establishing a clear policy on how moderation should be performed.
Without a clear policy, the effects could be far worse than status quo.

3. Establishing a good and trusted moderators team. Normally I'd say
ComRel could do that but given their inability to react within the last
year...

So, anyone volunteering to do the work?

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Dirkjan Ochtman]

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:

> > On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it
> be
> > better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, moderators
> who
> > move problematic user's posts to moderated by default, and then withhold
> > the specific posts if necessary?
>
> I don't think this is really technically feasible. I don't know if mlmmj
> has the specific feature you're asking for, and even if it did,
> moderation with mlmmj is practically impossible to use. Even for low-
> traffic channel like gentoo-dev-announce@ it's not working well.
>

Maybe we should move to a more modern list manager? I'm pretty sure mailman
can do this kind of stuff trivially. It feels bad if we have to institute
suboptimal processes due to crappy tooling, if better alternatives are
readily available.

Regards,

Dirkjan

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Alec Warner]

On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:

> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 13∶52 -0500, użytkownik Alec Warner
> napisał:
> > On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:18 PM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> >
> > > Hello, everyone.
> > >
> > > This is something that's been talked about privately a lot lately but
> it
> > > seems that nobody went forward to put things into motion. SO here's
> > > a proposal that aims to improve the condition of our mailing lists
> > > and solve some of the problems they are facing today.
> > >
> > >
> > > Problems
> > > 
> > >
> > > Currently the developer-oriented mailing lists gentoo-dev and gentoo-
> > > project are open to posting by everyone. While this has been generally
> > > beneficial, we seem to be having major problems with some
> > > of the posters for more than a year. Off hand, I can think of three:
> > >
> > > 1. Repeating attacks against Gentoo and/or Gentoo developers (including
> > > pure personal attacks). While it is understandable that some people may
> > > be frustrated and need to vent off, repeating attacks from the same
> > > person are seriously demotivating to everyone.
> > >
> > > 2. Frequent off-topics, often irrelevant to the thread at hand.
> > > I understand that some of those topics are really interesting but it is
> > > really time-consuming to filter through all the off-topic mails
> > > in search of data relevant to the topic at hand. What's worst,
> sometimes
> > > you don't even get a single on-topic reply.
> > >
> > > 3. Support requests. Some of our 'expert users' have been abusing
> > > the mailing lists to request support (because it's easier to ask
> > > everyone than go through proper channels) and/or complain about bug
> > > resolutions. This is a minor issue but still it is one.
> > >
> > >
> > > All of those issues are slowly rendering the mailing lists impossible
> to
> > > use. People waste a lot of time trying to gather feedback, and get
> > > demotivated in the process. A steadily growing number of developers
> > > either stop reading the mailing lists altogether, or reduce their
> > > activity.
> > >
> > > For example, eclass reviews usually don't get more than one reply,
> > > and even that is not always on-topic. And after all, getting this kind
> > > of feedback is one of the purposes of the -dev mailing list!
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Proposal
> > > 
> > >
> > > Give the failure of other solutions tried for this, I'd like to
> > > establish the following changes to the mailing lists:
> > >
> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> > >
> > > 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
> > >
> > > 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access
> > > upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer.
> >
> >
> > > 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide
> > > a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers.
> > >
> > > 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has
> now.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rationale
> > > =
> > >
> > > I expect that some of you will find this a drastic measure. However, I
> > > would like to point out that I believe we've already exhausted all
> other
> > > options to no avail.
> > >
> > > The problems of more abusive behavior from some of the mailing list
> > > members have been reported to ComRel numerous times. After the failure
> > > of initial enforcement, I'm not aware of ComRel doing anything to solve
> > > the problem. The main arguments I've heard from ComRel members were:
> > >
> > > A. Bans can be trivially evaded, and history proves that those evasions
> > > create more noise than leaving the issue as is.
> > >
> > > B. People should be allowed to express their opinion [even if it's pure
> > > hate speech that carries no value to anyone].
> > >
> > > C. The replies of Gentoo developers were worse [no surprise that people
> > > lose their patience after being attacked for a few months].
> > >
> >
> > A B and C would equally apply to the "gentoo-dev" list you are proposing.
> > The only difference is
> > that there is some 'vetting' process for people who are allowed to post.
> > But lets say hyptothetically
> > Alec is an active contributor and is posting spammily to the gentoo-dev
> > list. If ComRel will not take any action
> > (due to A B and C) what is the difference to the status quo?
>
> Well, I believe the main difference is that the approval process makes
> it harder to evade a ban.
>
> If you need a voice, you need to get a developer to vouch for you.
> If you have just been banned, you won't immediately regain the access
> for the same identity. And unless you've actively maintaining a second
> identity for yourself, you won't get immediate access to evade the ban.
>

Oh it was not clear we would ban people from the proposed 'gentoo-dev' list
based on your 

Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Gerion Entrup]

Am Sonntag, 3. Dezember 2017, 22:43:19 CET schrieb Michał Górny:
> W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 21∶30 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
> Ochtman napisał:
> > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> > 
> > > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> > > 
> > > 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
> > > 
> > > 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access
> > > upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer.
> > > 
> > 
> > On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it be
> > better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, moderators who
> > move problematic user's posts to moderated by default, and then withhold
> > the specific posts if necessary?
> 
> I don't think this is really technically feasible. I don't know if mlmmj
> has the specific feature you're asking for, and even if it did,
> moderation with mlmmj is practically impossible to use. Even for low-
> traffic channel like gentoo-dev-announce@ it's not working well.
> 
> > 
> > 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide
> > > a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers.
> > > 
> > > 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has now.
> > > 
> > 
> > I'm not sure this will be worth it. Who exactly do you think is the
> > audience for this mailing list? What is the goal? How is it different from
> > existing mailing lists?
> 
> The audience is expect users who usually don't need basic support
> but instead want to discuss the development of Gentoo and want to have
> some impact on where it goes.
> 
> The main goal is to be able to restore more developers to gentoo-dev@,
> and be able to focus it on feedback and reviews.
> 
> In other words, the goal is that if the attitude on gentoo-expert
> becomes impossible to bear, the developers can unsubscribe from that
> list without actually losing the ability to give feedback on important
> Gentoo issues.
If core Gentoo developers don't read the expert list, I'm not seeing a high
value in such a list.

I'm a long term Gentoo user, but have read this list a few month only, so
correct me, if I'm wrong. I've seen the main usage of this list in three
aspects:
1. Review and discussion of new (technical) features (eclasses, EAPI, package
manager specs).
2. Information about unmaintained packages.
3. Input and proposals from users.

Splitting the list would reduce the meaning of gentoo-dev to the first point.
The second point has to be handled on the expert list (or both lists), so
proxy maintainers can reply. The third point can only be handled on the expert
list, but core developers have to read it, otherwise the whole point would be
meaningless.

In other projects with similar problems but the technical possibility to 
moderate
some "code of conduct" was adopted, so moderators can ban users on that base
for a fixed amount of time.

Gerion


> 
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > 
> > Dirkjan
> 
> 



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Re: [gentoo-project] Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Splitting developer-oriented and expert user mailing lists

[Michał Górny]

W dniu nie, 03.12.2017 o godzinie 21∶30 +0100, użytkownik Dirkjan
Ochtman napisał:
> On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 12:18 AM, Michał Górny  wrote:
> 
> > 1. Posting to gentoo-dev@ and gentoo-project@ mailing lists will be
> > initially restricted to active Gentoo developers.
> > 
> > 1a. Subscription (reading) and archives will still be open.
> > 
> > 1b. Active Gentoo contributors will be able to obtain posting access
> > upon being vouched for by an active Gentoo developer.
> > 
> 
> On the face of it, I like this proposal. On the other hand, wouldn't it be
> better if we just had more active list moderators? That is, moderators who
> move problematic user's posts to moderated by default, and then withhold
> the specific posts if necessary?

I don't think this is really technically feasible. I don't know if mlmmj
has the specific feature you're asking for, and even if it did,
moderation with mlmmj is practically impossible to use. Even for low-
traffic channel like gentoo-dev-announce@ it's not working well.

> 
> 2. A new mailing list 'gentoo-expert' will be formed to provide
> > a discussion medium for expert Gentoo users and developers.
> > 
> > 2a. gentoo-expert will have open posting access like gentoo-dev has now.
> > 
> 
> I'm not sure this will be worth it. Who exactly do you think is the
> audience for this mailing list? What is the goal? How is it different from
> existing mailing lists?

The audience is expect users who usually don't need basic support
but instead want to discuss the development of Gentoo and want to have
some impact on where it goes.

The main goal is to be able to restore more developers to gentoo-dev@,
and be able to focus it on feedback and reviews.

In other words, the goal is that if the attitude on gentoo-expert
becomes impossible to bear, the developers can unsubscribe from that
list without actually losing the ability to give feedback on important
Gentoo issues.

> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Dirkjan

-- 
Best regards,
Michał Górny