OT: gentoo-kindergarten (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML)

2007-06-13 Thread Thilo Bangert
I want a gentoo-kindergarten list, where useless discussions like this 
(sub)thread can be directed to.

kids, grow up!


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Re: OT: gentoo-kindergarten (was: Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML)

2007-06-13 Thread Kent Fredric

On 6/13/07, Thilo Bangert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I want a gentoo-kindergarten list, where useless discussions like this
(sub)thread can be directed to.

kids, grow up!



*cries in his corner*

Yes mummy

:]

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-09 Thread George Prowse

Mike Doty wrote:

George Prowse wrote:

Kumba wrote:

Kumba wrote:

So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
list ourselves.

[snip]

Anyways, thoughts?

Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.

Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba


I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D

just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q


That would be the point of the irony...
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Kumba

Philip Webb wrote:

070607 Kumba wrote:

what should we call it?  Vote on this!


If users have votes ...


Since I'm pretty much the pikachu-loving nutball that proposed this, I don't see 
why not.  Users are as much a part of Gentoo as the developers are.



--Kumba

--
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do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Roman Zimmermann
Kumba wrote:
  what should we call it?  Vote on this!
 
  If users have votes ...

Then I'd vote for gentoo-project.

It seems to me that politics covers just a part of all possible non-technical 
topics. Depends on how you define politics though.

Roman


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Luca Barbato
Kumba wrote:
 gentoo-politics
 gentoo-circuits
 gentoo-soap
 gentoo-project
 gentoo-gossip

gentoo-drama - theatrical events every day, no feeling were hurt while
filming the show*

gentoo-chats - mindless discussions about non issues

gentoo-rhetorics - exercise your language skills

gentoo-pub - beer plans and other stuff, please bring the snacks.

lu

-- 

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Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Kumba

Kumba wrote:


So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the 
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the 
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and 
others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you 
know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list 
ourselves.

[snip]


Anyways, thoughts?


Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will probably 
want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.


Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread George Prowse

Kumba wrote:

Kumba wrote:


So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the 
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the 
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself 
and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, 
you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this 
list ourselves.

[snip]


Anyways, thoughts?


Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will 
probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.


Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba


I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Mike Doty
George Prowse wrote:
 Kumba wrote:
 Kumba wrote:

 So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
 flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
 IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
 and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
 you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
 list ourselves.
 [snip]

 Anyways, thoughts?

 Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
 probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.

 Lets try and make this work, k?


 --Kumba

 I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D
just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q

-- 
===
Mike Doty  kingtaco -at- gentoo.org
Gentoo Council
Gentoo Infrastructure
Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-08 Thread Kumba

Mike Doty wrote:

George Prowse wrote:

Kumba wrote:

Kumba wrote:

So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself
and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like,
you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this
list ourselves.

[snip]

Anyways, thoughts?

Bug #181368 is filed.  Those seeking this reply-to non-munging will
probably want to post a note there and let infra decide on that matter.

Lets try and make this work, k?


--Kumba


I say, just to be ironic, let the proctors decide and not infra :D

just to be ironic, infra makes the decision on new lists :Q



0wned.


--Kumba

--
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Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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[gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kumba


So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn 
bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU.  Given what's been 
going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get 
back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high 
time we create this list ourselves.


What goes on it?, why the flames of course.  Every last ember, hot coal, glowing 
developers, and any kittens having reached critical mass.  We leave the new 
developer introductions on -dev, but any developer leaving and wanting to say 
goodbye, should consider posting their bit on -politics, because that's lately 
been the reason for leaving.  Anything hot button, hot topic, divisive, 
non-development, etc.  Especially license debates.  Ohhh yes, the license 
debates definitely belong here.


This'll probably kill -dev off completely, unless we start developing again. 
But hey, I for once wouldn't mind a quiet gentoo-dev folder in my thunderbird 
client.




So who's up for it?  We can even divide ourselves into Red Devs and Blue Devs! 
Blue Devs will, of course, be liberal, very energy conservative (i.e., no 
Octanes for you guys!), Pro-Choice (Portage or Paludis or Pkgcore, it's a dev's 
right to choose!), and most importantly, they'll favour any legislation from the 
Council that bans devs from smoking.  You know, the kind of smoldering that 
happens before a dev bursts into flames?


And the Red Devs?  Well, they'll be on the other side of the fence.  They'll 
blow the electric bill like the space shuttle burns fuel.  They'll also be 
Anti-Portage (it's Paludis/Pkgcore or else).  And the flames?  We're talking 
Firebats from StarCraft here.  Need a light?


See, this is fun already!  We can hold debates where one side rips the other, 
conventions where the egos of one side get inflated bigger than the Hindenburg 
(and lots of confetti is thrown about), And maybe even a few scandals, like 
discovering one die-hard Blue Dev secretly runs a 8-way Opteron system with a 
15-disk RAID6 array and 5 CRT monitors, or something.


We will have to fill a few positions, though.  We'll need a flip-flopper for 
starters (the one dev who randomly changes his opinion when cornered).  We'll 
also need a dev who skipped the Freenode War a year or two ago (when Bantown 
attacked, and they ran away screaming because of the netsplits and Squits and 
lilo impersonators).  And maybe a dev who secretly dabbles in another OSlike 
Wind...err, Ubuntu!



So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside.  It's blatantly obvious people 
need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the politics from 
the technical discussion, it might help in some way.  Yes, it'll also be the 
source of many problems too.  I can't envision what they might be, but I know 
they'd exist.



Anyways, thoughts?


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Luis Francisco Araujo
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Kumba wrote:
 
 So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the
 flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the
 IAU.  Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and
 others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you
 know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list
 ourselves.
 

 
 Anyways, thoughts?
 
 
 --Kumba
 

I like the idea.

- --

Luis F. Araujo araujo at gentoo.org
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kent Fredric

On 6/7/07, Kumba [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Anyways, thoughts?

--Kumba



+1

possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
confused with net-im/gossip )

And just for fits and giggles, the occasional person can start a fake
flame war just to keep us on our toes as to whats a flame war, and
whats just devs moaning for the simple sake of moaning. =P

Just one q, ... is there like a green team?, not much a fan for blue's
or reds atm ( well, not in my country anyway, colours do seem to be a
little country specific sometimes)
^^;




--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Vlastimil Babka
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Kumba wrote:
 And maybe a dev who
 secretly dabbles in another OSlike Wind...err, Ubuntu!

I thought this position has been already filled :)
- --
Vlastimil Babka (Caster)
Gentoo/Java
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Luca Barbato
Kumba wrote:
 So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside.  It's blatantly obvious
 people need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the
 politics from the technical discussion, it might help in some way.  Yes,
 it'll also be the source of many problems too.  I can't envision what
 they might be, but I know they'd exist.

I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.

(btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)

lu

-- 

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Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC
http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Christian Parpart
On Thursday 07 June 2007 09:10:41 Kent Fredric wrote:
 On 6/7/07, Kumba [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Anyways, thoughts?
 
  --Kumba

 +1

+1 here too

 possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
 confused with net-im/gossip )

gentoo-soap, lol!


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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Jan Kundrát
Kent Fredric wrote:
 possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
 confused with net-im/gossip )

Please, please, make it gentoo-circuits [1].

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_My_Circuits

Yours faithfully,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub  more beer  /dev/mouth



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Marius Mauch
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 02:19:55 -0400
Kumba [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames 
 burn 
 bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU.  Given what's 
 been 
 going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to 
 get 
 back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's 
 high 
 time we create this list ourselves.

Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, 
maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's 
of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.

Marius

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kumba

Christian Parpart wrote:


+1 here too


possible alternative names: gentoo-soap, gentoo-gossip ( not to be
confused with net-im/gossip )


gentoo-soap, lol!


And these are the Flames of our Lives...


--Kumba

--
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Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kumba

Luca Barbato wrote:


I'm ok with it, just I'd like to have it available as gentoo-fortune please.

(btw I'd like to see the quotebot back from the old ages!)


Oh, I could easily see the quote package for gentoo-politics (or whatever its 
called) raising much laughter (among other things).


And yes, the quote bot needs to return!  So I can stop storing quotes in my bot 
hiding off on another network :P



--Kumba

--
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Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kumba

Marius Mauch wrote:


Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest question, 
maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts about it. It's 
of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev to that new list.



Most of what I wrote was tongue-in-cheek, but the point was that -dev is far too 
often filled with non-technical issues that ultimately result into flame wars of 
the likes that'd humble mighty Troy herself.  It is also our primary list for 
discussion of all-things gentoo, and so the -dev moniker doesn't even really fit 
right now.


By separating the technical and non-technical, and allowing people to 
voluntarily subscribe to the -politics one or not (since -dev is basically a 
requirement for devship), My hope is that -dev finally gets back on track as 
being purely technical.  That is, PMS discussions, ebuild additions/removals, 
new developer intros, why quoting variables like ${S} is safer than not quoting 
them in ebuilds, questions about bash-fu, and so on.  These belong on -dev.


The rest, the non-technical, can go elsewhere, IMHO, and people are free to 
subscribe to it if they wish to participate in the discussions there or not.  I 
 myself would likely stay off that list, because I care more about technical 
things.  I live ~30mi outside of the DC Beltway; I get enough politics as it is.


Think about it -- I'm 30mi away from Wolf Blitzer.  Scary stuff man.


--Kumba

--
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Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh
Marius Mauch wrote:
 Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest 
 question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts 
 about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev 
 to that new list.
   
We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
While I think that behavior proctors are inappropriate, I think that
people with ability to say move this thread to gentoo-politics or else..
for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic in your
technical discussion or else... with power to temporarily ban people
for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

 Marius

   

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Philip Webb
070607 Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
 people with ability to say move this to gentoo-politics or else..
 for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic
 in your technical discussion or else... with power
 to temporarily ban people for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

I've also previously thought a 'gentoo-pol' list wb an improvement,
leaving 'gentoo-dev' for genuine development discussions  announcements.
The former should have fairly free speech, but some users/devs might choose
not to subscribe, if the noise tended to outweigh the messages.
Its principal attraction wb to relieve '-dev', as you describe.

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SUPPORT ___//___,  Philip Webb : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Steev Klimaszewski
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
 Marius Mauch wrote:
 Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an honest 
 question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have serious doubts 
 about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to move threads from -dev 
 to that new list.
   
 We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
 While I think that behavior proctors are inappropriate, I think that
 people with ability to say move this thread to gentoo-politics or else..
 for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic in your
 technical discussion or else... with power to temporarily ban people
 for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
 
 Marius

   
 
No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
can't have that, no sir.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Ciaran McCreesh
On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
 can't have that, no sir.

It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh



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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Doug Goldstein
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   
 No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
 can't have that, no sir.
 

 It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
 argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.

   
Or if it's done to you.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Steev Klimaszewski
Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
 On Thu, 07 Jun 2007 11:50:02 -0500
 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
 can't have that, no sir.
 
 It's censorship when it's being done one-sidedly in order to skew an
 argument based upon the prejudices of those doing the banning.
 
Correct you are, your technical knowledge is still sharp as a tack.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh
Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
 Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
  Marius Mauch wrote:
  Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
 honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
 serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
 move threads from -dev to that new list.

  We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
  While I think that behavior proctors are inappropriate, I think that
  people with ability to say move this thread to gentoo-politics or
 else..
  for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic in your
  technical discussion or else... with power to temporarily ban people
  for non-compliance could be a useful thing.

  Marius
 

 No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
 can't have that, no sir.
I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
today.
Please ban yourself for 24hours.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Steev Klimaszewski
Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
 Steev Klimaszewski wrote:
 Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:
 Marius Mauch wrote:
 Do you really think people would voluntarily use it? That's an
 honest question, maybe people are fair enough to do it, but I have
 serious doubts about it. It's of no use if people have to be told to
 move threads from -dev to that new list.
   
 We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
 While I think that behavior proctors are inappropriate, I think that
 people with ability to say move this thread to gentoo-politics or
 else..
 for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic in your
 technical discussion or else... with power to temporarily ban people
 for non-compliance could be a useful thing.
 Marius

   
 No can do - temporarily banning is a bad thing, its censorship, and we
 can't have that, no sir.
 I'll presume this to be irony. Oh. Sorry, can't have that on this list
 today.
 Please ban yourself for 24hours.

Not irony, sarcasm, and no sir, I will not ban myself.  The proctors
could have though, but not since no one will listen to them and they
have been completely undermined and made obsolete by an overzealous
council member.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Kumba

Ilya A. Volynets-Evenbakh wrote:

We might need some sort of enforcement for that particular purpose.
While I think that behavior proctors are inappropriate, I think that
people with ability to say move this thread to gentoo-politics or else..
for non-technical threads, as well as stop failing to use logic in your
technical discussion or else... with power to temporarily ban people
for non-compliance could be a useful thing.



IMHO, any enforcement needs to come from the developer community themselves.  We 
have to be careful when designating small groups of people with power, because 
the dark side of power is that can can be misused.  The model of developers 
collectively enforcing works well already: the Portage Tree.  While we've had 
small mishaps here and there, largely, the honesty system used on the tree has 
worked quite well.  I think that can easily extend to keeping -dev technical in 
nature only.  After all, it already works for the wayward users who posts a 
-user question to -dev.  Just a simple, courteous note that such a question is 
better asked on -user, and off they go.  Nothing precludes the same response for 
a fellow developer posting a non-technical mail into -dev.


But anyways, we've got unanimous support so far, so next up: What to call it.

My two choices are gentoo-politics or gentoo-project.  After looking at 
debian-project a bit, I think there's no harm in recycling the same moniker[1] 
for our use as well.  Amusingly enough, there's even a thread on their ML today 
about discussion of of-topic topics.  The rest of the content there seems to be 
right in line with what's been on here too as of late.


So, what should we call it?  Vote on this!  I think the current popular names 
are the following (in no particular order, just what I've already seen suggested):


gentoo-politics
gentoo-circuits
gentoo-soap
gentoo-project
gentoo-gossip


[1]: http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/


--Kumba

--
Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead

Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands 
do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere.  --Elrond

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Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML

2007-06-07 Thread Philip Webb
070607 Kumba wrote:
 what should we call it?  Vote on this!

If users have votes ...

 gentoo-politics

... that gets mine: let's keep it quite clear what it is.

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