Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-12-15 Thread Joe Peterson
Donnie Berkholz wrote:
 On 15:35 Mon 01 Dec , Joe Peterson wrote:
 However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the
 important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their
 somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has 
 a
 problem with a package.  Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and
 will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's 
 a
 huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that
 there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation.
 
 Based on the rarity of me seeing this reported as a problem, I'm 
 inclined to think it says more about this user than about our system.

This could very-well be.  However:

 I don't think it's our responsibility to put documentation everywhere 
 someone might conceivably look for information.

I agree with this statement, but I wasn't implying we should duplicate
information everywhere.  I wanted to explore this as an opportunity to
re-think if having an official de facto spot for gentoo readmes
would make sense, thereby saving log output in a useful place where
users would learn to look regularly.  I agree this would only be
reasonable if it were the right thing, architecturally, for Gentoo, not
just for this one user's issue.

-Joe



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-12-10 Thread Donnie Berkholz
On 15:35 Mon 01 Dec , Joe Peterson wrote:
 However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the
 important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their
 somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has a
 problem with a package.  Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and
 will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's a
 huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that
 there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation.

Based on the rarity of me seeing this reported as a problem, I'm 
inclined to think it says more about this user than about our system. I 
don't think it's our responsibility to put documentation everywhere 
someone might conceivably look for information.

-- 
Thanks,
Donnie

Donnie Berkholz
Developer, Gentoo Linux
Blog: http://dberkholz.wordpress.com


pgpA5SJMEiu40.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-12-01 Thread Gilles Dartiguelongue
Summarizing from what I've read in this thread it seems you want to find
a way to help user find information s/he doesn't look for. 

If users aren't curious about their system they will sure have a hard
time figuring out how to fix it if needs be. PORTAGE_ELOG_* isn't really
that hard to find in the make.conf.example (even though it's new
location makes it a bit harder to find).

As others have said, there are already proper systems, documentation and
linking through other docs. Not finding this is what I'd call lazyness
or lack of google foo. Don't misunderstand me, some stuff can get ouf of
the radar of everyone, it's ok, real people are still here to point you
in the right direction.

If you find a better way to convey these information to the users, then
please surprise me. For now I think we are in a good shape.

-- 
Gilles Dartiguelongue [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo


signature.asc
Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée


Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-12-01 Thread Joe Peterson
Gilles Dartiguelongue wrote:
 As others have said, there are already proper systems, documentation and
 linking through other docs. Not finding this is what I'd call lazyness
 or lack of google foo. Don't misunderstand me, some stuff can get ouf of
 the radar of everyone, it's ok, real people are still here to point you
 in the right direction.

I think that I probably did not express my idea as well as I could have, since
most of the responses I have gotten have echoed your thoughts that Gentoo
does, indeed, have the facilities to achieve flexibility in logging, etc.

I totally agree.  Gentoo's capabilities, although not perfect, of course, are
superlative and are a complement to its superb online doc.  I think that's a
big reason why we're all here - we see this and appreciate this.  In fact,
even when I do not include the word gentoo in a Google search, I more often
than not end up at a Gentoo doc page - this is impressive.

However, what I see as perhaps a missing piece is more conceptual: the
important connection between the valuable info in the emerge logs (and their
somewhat transient default nature) and what a user looks for when he/she has a
problem with a package.  Yes, users will realize this as they use Gentoo (and
will start paying more attention to logs as a result), so I don't think it's a
huge problem, but what this particular user said to me made me think that
there is, perhaps, an opportunity to improve the situation.

There is no Gentoo-specific readme facility, which could be the obvious and
de facto place to go when trouble is had.  I can imagine that a fairly simple
and low-effort way of starting such a resource would be to simple echo the log
output into a package-specific file in a known place (or put it in the portage
db).  The logging facilities allow similar things if configured to do it, but
it is not on by default.  Once users know where to go to see the
instructions or notes on getting a package up and running after
installation, this would become a good place to have such info or to expand on
how the facility works.  Starting with just the plain emerge log output would
be an easy way to get benefit of such a concept has merit.  And by no means
would such a thing be an attempt to replace the excellent on-line docs or
wiki, either - I see both as having unique strengths.  For example, for
detailed info on packages, the wiki/web stuff is the better resource.  For a
quick check of whether a revdep-rebuild might have been necessary after
installing a new package would typically be in the log/notes.  The notes also
have the key advantage that they would *always* contain what the log output
was, whereas whether a wiki or web page exists on a particular package depends
on whether someone spent the time to author one.

My intention with the RFC was to see if the concept has any worth and to kick
it around a bit.  I do not really see this as a deficiency in Gentoo's
technology (which I have a feeling is how many here have interpreted it), but
simply something that, if done correctly, could be useful.

-Joe



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-12-01 Thread Marius Mauch
On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:35:32 -0700
Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 My intention with the RFC was to see if the concept has any worth and
 to kick it around a bit.  I do not really see this as a deficiency in
 Gentoo's technology (which I have a feeling is how many here have
 interpreted it), but simply something that, if done correctly, could
 be useful.

Maybe provide a real example to demonstrate the difference between the
current solutions and what you're looking for, because I still don't
understand what you're after (using all the different terms, logs,
notes, docs, plain emerge log, ... without further explanation doesn't
help much to clear things up).

Marius



[gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Joe Peterson
I recently had a user write to me after banging his head against the
wall for a while, trying to get a package working.  By the time he wrote
me, he had already figured it out, but he wanted to convey to me that
what finally helped was actually the emerge output (which stated exactly
how to get things working - in this case, the need to run emerge
--config).  He had not noticed this before and only saw it upon
re-installing, given the transient nature of the emerge messages.

Bottom line here is that there is extremely valuable and critical info
in our emerge output.  In a way, these messages are like Gentoo-specific
READMEs (or release notes and/or install instructions).  However, it is
not saved for a user to use as a resource later (well, except that it is
partially saved in the master emerge.log, but that's not quite useful
enough).  There is no official place to go to look for Gentoo
instructions; /usr/share/doc is one logical place, but it only contains
files actually installed, not the notes output by emerge (and these are
usually upstream-supplied, not Gentoo).

I propose that, upon merging a package, we save the emerge messages in
either: 1) a package-specific file that resides somewhere official or
2) in the portage DB, so that the messages can be re-read via a portage
utility.  In the latter case, either a new option to equery or a new
q command (e.g. equery readme pkg or qreadme pkg could
retrieve the text).

In either case, there would then be a place to go that is known and
consistent (and can be documented in the Gentoo doc).  It could, in
essense, serve as a kind of Gentoo package README collection.  I could
also imagine later expanding on this by letting a given package also
include more thorough README info from a file if the maintainer so desires.

-Joe



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Marius Mauch
On Sun, 30 Nov 2008 09:25:51 -0700
Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Bottom line here is that there is extremely valuable and critical info
 in our emerge output.  In a way, these messages are like
 Gentoo-specific READMEs (or release notes and/or install
 instructions).  However, it is not saved for a user to use as a
 resource later (well, except that it is partially saved in the master
 emerge.log, but that's not quite useful enough).  There is no
 official place to go to look for Gentoo
 instructions; /usr/share/doc is one logical place, but it only
 contains files actually installed, not the notes output by emerge
 (and these are usually upstream-supplied, not Gentoo).
 
 I propose that, upon merging a package, we save the emerge messages in
 either: 1) a package-specific file that resides somewhere official
 or
 2) in the portage DB, so that the messages can be re-read via a
 portage utility.  In the latter case, either a new option to equery
 or a new q command (e.g. equery readme pkg or qreadme pkg
 could retrieve the text).

By default, messages generated by elog, ewarn and eerror are recorded
in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log (emerge.log is just a
transaction log, so best to ignore it here). einfo isn't recorded on
purpose as it isn't intended for important information (that's the
purpose of elog). There are some tools available to simplify reading
these messages, and there several additional/alternative delivery
modules available (by mail, IM or in package specific files),
customizable via POTAGE_ELOG_* variables. Don't know if you just
haven't been aware of this, or if you're asking for something
completely different.

Marius



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Joe Peterson
Marius Mauch wrote:
 By default, messages generated by elog, ewarn and eerror are recorded
 in /var/log/portage/elog/summary.log (emerge.log is just a
 transaction log, so best to ignore it here). einfo isn't recorded on
 purpose as it isn't intended for important information (that's the
 purpose of elog). There are some tools available to simplify reading
 these messages, and there several additional/alternative delivery
 modules available (by mail, IM or in package specific files),
 customizable via POTAGE_ELOG_* variables. Don't know if you just
 haven't been aware of this, or if you're asking for something
 completely different.

I'm really proposing something different - in essence, the above is to
obscure to really serve as a good official kind of readme source for
users.  There needs to be something simple and straightforward (and
well-documented) as the official thing to look at if one is having
trouble with a package.  In the case I mentioned all it took was for
that user to see the messages, but it did not occur to him that the info
would be there.  I could even imagine that einfo should be included in
what I am suggesting, since it may not be important for logging, but
might be nice to have, nonetheless.

-Joe



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Peter Volkov
Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: 

http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4

Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by
mail :)

HTH,
--
Peter.

В Вск, 30/11/2008 в 09:25 -0700, Joe Peterson пишет:
 Bottom line here is that there is extremely valuable and critical info
 in our emerge output.  In a way, these messages are like Gentoo-specific
 READMEs (or release notes and/or install instructions).  However, it is
 not saved for a user to use as a resource later (well, except that it is
 partially saved in the master emerge.log, but that's not quite useful
 enough).  There is no official place to go to look for Gentoo
 instructions; /usr/share/doc is one logical place, but it only contains
 files actually installed, not the notes output by emerge (and these are
 usually upstream-supplied, not Gentoo).
 
 I propose that, upon merging a package, we save the emerge messages in
 either: 1) a package-specific file that resides somewhere official or
 2) in the portage DB, so that the messages can be re-read via a portage
 utility.  In the latter case, either a new option to equery or a new
 q command (e.g. equery readme pkg or qreadme pkg could
 retrieve the text).
 
 In either case, there would then be a place to go that is known and
 consistent (and can be documented in the Gentoo doc).  It could, in
 essense, serve as a kind of Gentoo package README collection.  I could
 also imagine later expanding on this by letting a given package also
 include more thorough README info from a file if the maintainer so desires.





Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Joe Peterson
Peter Volkov wrote:
 Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: 
 
 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4
 
 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by
 mail :)

This is all cool, indeed!  :)

I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these
variables.  I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it
more default/official in some way could be a great help.  The core
problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when
having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in
the log info.

The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people
can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there
exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless
of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff).  The bare log
messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing
special to provide more readme info.

-Joe



Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Alec Warner
On Sun, Nov 30, 2008 at 9:11 AM, Joe Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Peter Volkov wrote:
 Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about:

 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4

 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by
 mail :)

 This is all cool, indeed!  :)

 I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these
 variables.  I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it
 more default/official in some way could be a great help.  The core
 problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when
 having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in
 the log info.

I suspect that no one really disagrees with more communication; but I
imagine many are not willing to put time into it.

So I suggest you come up with better ideas to communicate to users
about the existing logging solutions and then
implement them ;)

The gentoo homepage is one way, the GMN is another, Forums is a third.
 Just write one article about it and publish it everywhere.
Also Gentoo-Wiki ;)

-Alec


 The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people
 can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there
 exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless
 of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff).  The bare log
 messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing
 special to provide more readme info.

-Joe





Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Dale
Joe Peterson wrote:
 Peter Volkov wrote:
   
 Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: 

 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4

 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by
 mail :)
 

 This is all cool, indeed!  :)

 I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these
 variables.  I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it
 more default/official in some way could be a great help.  The core
 problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when
 having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in
 the log info.

 The reason I was phrasing it more in readme terms is that most people
 can identify with that concept, and it could be made clear that there
 exists Gentoo-specific readme info that is always available (regardless
 of whether a user sets up the portage logging stuff).  The bare log
 messages could exist as a minimal default for packages that do nothing
 special to provide more readme info.

   -Joe


   

If you have a GUI on your system, give this a look: 
app-portage/elogviewer  That should help you a lot.  I been using it for
a good while and it works pretty well.  I do wish it had little flags in
the list of packages that have been installed.  Sort of a short and
sweet  notice there is something there without actually have to look. 
Maybe a red flag when there is something really serious to know and
other colors for other things.

Anyway, give that a look and see if that helps, if you have  a GUI.

Dale

:-)  :-) 


Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC] Saving package emerge output (einfo, elog, ewarn, etc.) somewhere official

2008-11-30 Thread Ben de Groot
Joe Peterson wrote:
 Peter Volkov wrote:
 Seems that we already have everything you dreamed about: 

 http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=3chap=1#doc_chap4

 Take a look at PORTAGE_ELOG_SYSTEM. It even can send that messages by
 mail :)
 
 This is all cool, indeed!  :)
 
 I suspect, however, that most users have never played with these
 variables.  I think that saving this info in the portage db or making it
 more default/official in some way could be a great help.  The core
 problem is, I think, that many users do not know where to look when
 having trouble, so they may not even realize that what they need is in
 the log info.

The info is there, but most users never read more than part 1 of the
Handbook (that is, the installation part). We could, and should in my
opinion, add a big fat warning towards the end of the installation part,
that there is extremely useful information to be found in the other
parts of the Handbook. Maybe we could especially mention some of the
more useful topics, and the elog system would be one of them.

-- 
Ben de Groot
Gentoo Linux developer (lxde, media, desktop-misc)
Gentoo Linux Release Engineering PR liaison
__

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://ben.liveforge.org/
irc://chat.freenode.net/#gentoo-media
irc://irc.oftc.net/#lxde
__




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature