Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Daniel Drake wrote: Is the above correct? AFAIK, yes. Daniel Drake wrote: I can understand that the system may have been dreamed up with this in mind, and this certainly isn't an unreasonable design, but I don't see the corresponding text in the GLEP. Which does not seem to be a problem to Ciaran McCreesh as he stated So you're saying that you're attempting to use wording technicalities to prevent an improvement to the user experience? (earlier this day, 00:38:39) Mike already suggested that we set some news standards. I think we should go further: after discussion if we do decide this kind of article is valid news, then we should carefully reword some parts of the GLEP and maybe even rename it. Adding a few examples of valid and invalid items (plus explanations why) would be beneficial as well. Different forms of spreading news may never overlap, as this would cause arguments for no reason. For problems which are as easy to fix as this one, we got other ways of spread the news already. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 00:17:46 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 04 May 2007 17:38:43 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already... Experience has shown that news items work in delivering this kind of information to users whereas elog doesn't. elog is a one-shot thing that may or may not (usually the latter) actually get seen, whereas a news item stays around until the user reads it. What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP). Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 00:52:46 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That seems like a really bad road to go down. Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of an install as well? Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read. elog is not an adequate solution. Interesting that so far nobody (including yourself) has requested such a feature ... Also GLEP42 (as specified) is also an inadequate solution as there is no check for news items _after_ a package install, so in the typical use case users won't see this news item when it's most relevant (going by specification, haven't checked implementations). And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Fri, May 04, 2007 at 10:49:47PM +0200, Piotr Jaroszy??ski wrote: Justification: major config format change. As of Paludis 0.24, the use of '*' to match all packages in the Paludis configuration files 'use.conf', 'keywords.conf' and 'licenses.conf' is deprecated in favour of '*/*'. You should update your configuration files after upgrading. GLEP 42 wrote: Users should be told of changes before they break a system, News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices. The importance of the message to its intended audience should be justified with the proposal. Not sure what paludis does if it finds a * instead a */* in some config file, but does it actually break the system or cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems (e.g. like the upgrade to gcc 3.4, as mentioned as example in the GLEP)? If not, it sounds like an issue for elog. If yes, the should update part may need some stronger language like you must update. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpD5HMoDrW2Q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be called critical. If for instance an upgrade from package foo-3.4 to foo-4.0 will cause the system to break unless specific steps are followed (mysql/gcc), it's obvious that it's suitable for a news item. If an upgrade from an ancient version foo-0.99 to version foo-7.3 causes the system to break, it will not require a news item because it's common sense that data formats may have changed dramatically. Where do we draw the line on this? I'm not saying there should be a mathematical formula that will tell you whether or not to create a news item, but at least we all should have more or less the same idea about it. In the current situation an upgrade to paludis-0.24 will not break anything right away. On the other hand, if someone sticks to an earlier version and only upgrades after support for the old format has been removed, he may (will?) have a problem. Personally I feel we should send as few news items as possible. If we send a lot of them, people will start ignoring them. Config file formats change all the time and as long as there is a period of time where a package supports both and warns about the old format being used, I would not consider it worthy of a news item. If the application will just fail to start with the old format and the required changes are trivial, don't send a news item. Regards, Maurice. -- Maurice van der Pot Gentoo Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org Creator of BiteMe! [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kfk4ever.com pgpTcMBWOfnlN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:07:41 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What experience? So far there have been no news items. Paludis has had working news items for ages, and we've used them in the overlay. The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP). Experience has shown that elog is an insufficient mechanism for delivering post-merge information of this nature. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework. The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:44:54 +0200 Maurice van der Pot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be called critical. It's quite simple. If something is of sufficient interest to users who would be shown the news item that it is worth them seeing a news item then it should be a news item. So, the question is whether people who are using Paludis would benefit from or be inconvenienced by this news item. We have experience with this from similar changes and news items in the Paludis overlay, and from that we know that a news item is helpful in this kind of situation. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework. The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation. For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax anyway)? If we are going to abuse critical news reporting feature for such trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 14:53:47 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax anyway)? If we are going to abuse critical news reporting feature for such trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon. Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 05 May 2007 14:53:47 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For what situation? Changing * to */* is a bunch of config files (as far as I've been told, paludis warns about this deprecated syntax anyway)? If we are going to abuse critical news reporting feature for such trivialities, most users are going to ignore the noise pretty soon. Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant. How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's not misuse news framework for stuff that - it's not been intended for (i.e. do not use it as elog replacement, see GLEP 42) - for trivialities in general For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the screen when they try to use it). -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:15:55 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Only Paludis users will use the news item. To Paludis users, the news item is not a triviality or noise. To everyone else it's irrelevant. How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's not misuse news framework for stuff that Er, that's one of the main points of GLEP 42's design: it allows delivery of news items that are important to a subset of users only to that subset. The size of the subset is entirely irrelevant. For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the screen when they try to use it). Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output deprecation warnings. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:46:32 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework. The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation. Actually I agree - an automatic update would be adequate here. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP). As Ciaran explained below, the paludis overlay has been using them for a long time, but allow me to elaborate as one who has found these news items very useful, and who has been very unsatisfied with elog in general. I love getting information on news items that I can read at my own leisure via eselect news. For example, a recent news item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very minute that I installed the new version. What do you know...the next day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice, detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news. It's easy for you and others in this thread to speculate without *any* experience here. I really get the feeling that you guys are talking out of your ass because this is another ciaran/paludis thread. As has already been pointed out, only paludis users would see the news item that you are all bitching about, so if you guys don't use paludis, why do you care? If you happen to maintain packages and you feel like providing news will piss your users off, then don't provide it. Experience has shown that paludis users like these news items, which is another point that you and others are ignoring. -Steve signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:15:55 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does it matter exactly whether it's paludis users, gcc users, php users, apache users or whoever else who will use the news item? Let's not misuse news framework for stuff that Er, that's one of the main points of GLEP 42's design: it allows delivery of news items that are important to a subset of users only to that subset. The size of the subset is entirely irrelevant. That's not what I've been pointing out at all, you've completely snipped the important part about *unintended* use of this feature. So, once again - this is not an elog replacement and is not intended for trivial stuff (see the 'critical news' in GLEP42 title). For this particular case, you can (and do even) advise specifically the affected users only on runtime that the config files syntax has been changed. (Frankly, you don't even need elog stuff for similar things; everyone concerned will get the message paludis spits on the screen when they try to use it). Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output deprecation warnings. Well again, what kind of experience? You cannot just carry over an existing practice of heavily abusing such stuff in a particular overlay with a couple of ebuilds and implant it into a tree with thousands of packages - it will produce loads of annoying noise and the feature will become useless if every maintainer starts to use news framework in a similar way. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 15:28:21 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:46:32 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:30:40 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And given that the GLEP specifically states that news items are not suposed to replace the usual postinst einfo/elog messages I'm tempted to call this an abuse of the news framework. The usual postinst messages are inadequate for this situation. Actually I agree - an automatic update would be adequate here. An automatic update would have to go through the home directory for every single user. It's not a viable solution. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:37:36 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's not what I've been pointing out at all, you've completely snipped the important part about *unintended* use of this feature. So, once again - this is not an elog replacement and is not intended for trivial stuff (see the 'critical news' in GLEP42 title). This is not trivial stuff and it is not adequately solved by elog. Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output deprecation warnings. Well again, what kind of experience? You cannot just carry over an existing practice of heavily abusing such stuff in a particular overlay with a couple of ebuilds and implant it into a tree with thousands of packages - it will produce loads of annoying noise and the feature will become useless if every maintainer starts to use news framework in a similar way. Er, no it won't. Again, you're not understanding how GLEP 42 works. Perhaps you should gain some real experience in using it and observing how real users respond to it before you make such claims. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Stephen P. Becker napsal(a): For example, a recent news item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very minute that I installed the new version. What do you know...the next day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice, detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news. OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via rsync? -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:45:47 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 10:07:41 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What experience? So far there have been no news items. Paludis has had working news items for ages, and we've used them in the overlay. The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP). Experience has shown that elog is an insufficient mechanism for delivering post-merge information of this nature. Sorry, but I'd hardly call _your_ experience with paludis overlay users a reliable indicator that g42 news are superior to elog for Gentoo at large. Please stop pretending that you're speaking for/about the majority of our userbase when it's just your personal opinion/experience. Even if you observed it in a few other cases still doesn't make it true in the general case. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:48:28 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via rsync? You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than a single news item? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 15:51:25 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, but I'd hardly call _your_ experience with paludis overlay users a reliable indicator that g42 news are superior to elog for Gentoo at large. Please stop pretending that you're speaking for/about the majority of our userbase when it's just your personal opinion/experience. Even if you observed it in a few other cases still doesn't make it true in the general case. It's a reliable indicator of how users that have Paludis installed will find the news item. And funnily enough, they're the only users that will be affected by this. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Saturday, May 5, 2007 03:23:41 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [Paludis configuration: * - */*] Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output deprecation warnings. Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample to deduce anything from. Furthermore, GLEP42 states: News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices. 2007-05-04-paludis-0.24 doesn't fit this description. That isn't the real problem, though. The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that people will just start marking such news items read without really reading them or even stop synching news items completely. We won't gain anything implementing GLEP42 if people get the impression we're issuing news items for configuration changes that the application in question warns about anyway. For such information as contained in the Paludis 0.24 news item a better description of how to get ebuild messages stored/mailed/whatever might achieve much more. Seeing that something as trivial as mailing ebuild messages to the administrator requires using Paludis' hooks (cf. http://paludis.pioto.org/hooks.html#ebuild-message-hooks) which is not something that can be expected from a normal user (quoting yourself, Ciaran: the users are idiots), it seems worthy to work on improving that. Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this case at least. Best regards, Wulf pgpzphVF9bmUH.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:05:08 +0200 Wulf C. Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, May 5, 2007 03:23:41 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote: [Paludis configuration: * - */*] Experience and user feedback has shown that in situations like this users want an accompanying news item even if the application does output deprecation warnings. Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample to deduce anything from. They were. Furthermore, GLEP42 states: News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices. 2007-05-04-paludis-0.24 doesn't fit this description. That isn't the real problem, though. This is sufficiently important to Paludis users that Paludis users should see a news item for it. The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that people will just start marking such news items read without really reading them or even stop synching news items completely. This is not a trivial change. Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this case at least. We already know from similar cases that this isn't true. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a):
On Sat, 05 May 2007 15:48:28 +0200
Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
OK, I'm afraid that GLEP42 is missing the part that critical news
reporting does not replace documentation. You seriously intend to use
this feature for such stuff and force everyone to download this via
rsync?
You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than a
single news item?
Yeah, I seriously think package documentation belongs to tarballs and
gets installed to /usr/share/docs/${PF} - not to gentoo-x86 repository
where you are forcing every single user to download such stuff via rsync
and have it sitting on their disk even if they don't use the package at
all.
And if you need a pointer to new features, a simple 'elog Read the
NEWS/Changelog in /usr/share/doc/${PF} or a link to a website is
definitely more appropriate that abusing critical news for howtos and
new features announcement.
--
Best regards,
Jakub Moc
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG signature:
http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E
Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E
... still no signature ;)
signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 16:15:33 +0200
Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You seriously intend to use elog across lots of ebuilds rather than
a single news item?
Yeah, I seriously think package documentation belongs to tarballs and
gets installed to /usr/share/docs/${PF} - not to gentoo-x86 repository
where you are forcing every single user to download such stuff via
rsync and have it sitting on their disk even if they don't use the
package at all.
Then you should work on a partial sync implementation.
And if you need a pointer to new features, a simple 'elog Read the
NEWS/Changelog in /usr/share/doc/${PF} or a link to a website is
definitely more appropriate that abusing critical news for howtos and
new features announcement.
Except that then the news item won't be read by most of the affected
users.
--
Ciaran McCreesh
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Saturday, May 5, 2007 04:14:25 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample to deduce anything from. They were. How many news items did you issue? (It's probably easier for you to say instead of me searching the entire history of the overlay. :-) ) Furthermore, GLEP42 states: News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems. Ordinary upgrade messages and non-critical news items should remain in einfo notices. [...] This is sufficiently important to Paludis users that Paludis users should see a news item for it. Which are those serious upgrade or compatibility problems you're trying to avoid? Paludis warned about the change at runtime only. For serious problems I'm sure you'd make it error out, wouldn't you? The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that people will just start marking such news items read without really reading them or even stop synching news items completely. This is not a trivial change. (Could you please try to argument instead of just making statements?) The old configuration format still works. Thus, from a user's point of view, it is a trivial change. I agree with you that both from the POV of a Paludis dev as well as that of a Gentoo dev it's not trivial because it allows for better granularity when selecting subsets of packages. Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this case at least. We already know from similar cases that this isn't true. Yes, you've been repeating that over and over. At least one example would probably help to understand the point you're trying to make. Best regards, Wulf pgpBLrPEwT7zD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:40:12 +0200 Wulf C. Krueger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Saturday, May 5, 2007 04:14:25 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Currently, there are two news item in the Paludis overlay. Unless earlier ones were removed, those two seem to be a fairly small sample to deduce anything from. They were. How many news items did you issue? (It's probably easier for you to say instead of me searching the entire history of the overlay. :-) ) Er, four iirc. Which are those serious upgrade or compatibility problems you're trying to avoid? Paludis warned about the change at runtime only. For serious problems I'm sure you'd make it error out, wouldn't you? The serious problem is a lot of deprecation warning notices. We know from the last couple of times that we made changes to the configuration format (once with a news item, once without) that users are much happier when they do get a news item. The real problem with issuing news items for trivial changes is that people will just start marking such news items read without really reading them or even stop synching news items completely. This is not a trivial change. (Could you please try to argument instead of just making statements?) It's a simple fact, not an argument. The old configuration format still works. Thus, from a user's point of view, it is a trivial change. Using the old configuration format leads to noisy warnings. Users don't like noisy warnings. They like explanations for this kind of change. Then, elog and friends would be fully sufficient for informing users about such configuration changes - under the circumstances of this case at least. We already know from similar cases that this isn't true. Yes, you've been repeating that over and over. At least one example would probably help to understand the point you're trying to make. We've done two changes of this nature previously. The first change was for eclassdir - eclassdirs and profile - profiles (with a similar backwards compatible deprecation warning, not a breakage). We issued a news item for it. It was well received by end users, many of whom commented that they appreciated the notice and hoped that the delivery mechanism would be used more in the future. There were no complaints about the news item being a waste of their time. The second change was in how we handled wildcarding in keywords.conf. There was no news item, only release notes and postinst notices. Users were upset that they weren't notified about the change, even though they were, and it lead to a bunch of spurious support requests and bug reports. Hence my point: every single user who has commented upon the news items we've delivered has done so positively, and the nature of Paludis means we receive more accurate user feedback than maintainers of most other packages. All evidence currently available suggests that this approach is the best option. Once it's been tried to a wider audience there will be more evidence available and we can and will reassess the decision to see if there are ways of improving the process before it gets used for something of much wider importance and scope. The only real problem here is that GLEP 42 doesn't include a Display-If-Upgrading-From-To: header. This was a deliberate design decision, to avoid imposing substantially higher complexity requirements upon the package manager -- the workaround is to use Display-If-Installed: =whatever and remove the news item once it is reasonably expected to be no longer relevant. This isn't ideal, but given the delays in Portage implementing even simple support it was probably the right decision for a 1.0 news item specification. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 09:37:17 -0400 Stephen P. Becker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What experience? So far there have been no news items. The issue about elog messages being one shot things is rather outdated (at least for portage), and post-merge information is the domain of elog (as stated in the GLEP). As Ciaran explained below, the paludis overlay has been using them for a long time, but allow me to elaborate as one who has found these news items very useful, and who has been very unsatisfied with elog in general. I love getting information on news items that I can read at my own leisure via eselect news. For example, a recent news item in the paludis overlay informed users on how to properly set everything up for userpriv with paludis-0.22, a description that was far too detailed for elog, and which I didn't have time to read the very minute that I installed the new version. What do you know...the next day I was ready to set things up...and oh look, there was nice, detailed instructions waiting for me to read with eselect news. Guess you never looked at the various elog modules in portage-2.1 then which provide the same (I'd say even more) flexibility how and when you want to read such stuff (the demo hook in paludis is very limited in comparison). Besides as Jakub has pointed out (and I agree with him on this for once) your example definitely belongs into the realm of upstream documentation. Do you really want to make glep 42 an RSS feed for upstream documentation? It's easy for you and others in this thread to speculate without *any* experience here. I really get the feeling that you guys are talking out of your ass because this is another ciaran/paludis thread. Why does every discussion recently have to come down to this argument? I couldn't care less wether this was about paludis, pkgcore, portage, mysql, subversion, kde, gnome, vim, emacs, apache or whatever, a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax changes in config files that could just as well handled completely automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT. And as said above, there is the flipside that you (apparently) don't have much experience with elog (as implemented in portage) either, so that argument doesn't hold either. As has already been pointed out, only paludis users would see the news item that you are all bitching about, so if you guys don't use paludis, why do you care? The point is that it sets a precedence. After all some people might be silly enough to expect the tree to be somewhat consistent when it comes to such things. There was a reason why I asked in the original discussion about glep 42 how many news items might potentially exist at any given point in time (back then the answer was not so many). And if there really is going to be a news item for every triviality in the tree not only will people over time become trained to ignore them but also the overhead will get quite annoying. If you happen to maintain packages and you feel like providing news will piss your users off, then don't provide it. Experience has shown that paludis users like these news items, which is another point that you and others are ignoring. (My) Experience has also shown that gentoo-x86/portage users like the elog features in portage, so stop with those games, they don't get us anywhere. Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax changes in config files that could just as well handled completely automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT. And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Stephen Bennett napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax changes in config files that could just as well handled completely automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT. And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc. Shrug; frankly just a matter of adding $HOME/.paludis/etc or whatever (example) to CONFIG_PROTECT... Why it couldn't be done? -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 17:34:39 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Stephen Bennett napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a g42 news item shouldn't be issued for minor syntax changes in config files that could just as well handled completely automatically in postinst/CONFIG_PROTECT. And these changes can't be handled that way, since paludis configs can and do exist in home directories as well as in /etc. Shrug; frankly just a matter of adding $HOME/.paludis/etc or whatever (example) to CONFIG_PROTECT... Why it couldn't be done? Because a) the package manager touching anything in $HOME is extremely bad form and b) configuration directories are non-enumerable. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 16:23:53 +0100 Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:12:03 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (My) Experience has also shown that gentoo-x86/portage users like the elog features in portage, so stop with those games, they don't get us anywhere. They prefer it to not having anything at all. There is plenty of reason to believe that they would prefer news to elog in this situation were that option available to them. Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your default reaction to any opposition. Well, now you've just lost the last bit of credibility you might have had with me. EOD for me (you're not listening anyway). Marius -- Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your default reaction to any opposition. What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your default reaction to any opposition. What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want? This is such a hilarious thread; so let me start by half agreeing with Ciaran here. The whole point of news items is to only hit affected users with news. So in this case it doesn't particularly matter the number of news items, if there are a 1000 Paludis related news items, only Paludis users are affected, and they can then complain about having to read a bunch of items related to Paludis. This I can agree with. There is a minor point about item size and quantity and forcing users to rsync news that isn't relevant to them. The reality is that those news items could become relevant in the future; so they must be downloaded anyway. I think that keeping news to a minimum is a good thing; but in this case I'm not going to argue about one news item. However if Paludis does say, a news item every release, I will begin to wonder at the number of 'critical compatibility' problems in Paludis, since I hold most of the Paludis in high regard and I know they can produce software without critical issues. Fighting over one news item is I think pointless. If there is a trend then there is at least data to back it. Otherwise you are arguing over specific bits in a file with a few thousands characters in it. -Alec -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 2007-05-05 at 16:51 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 17:44:46 +0200 Marius Mauch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why did I knew that this argument would come? Maybe because it's your default reaction to any opposition. What, providing evidence to the contrary? What more do you want? Can we please stop that fruitless discussion. If the maintainers of the paludis ebuild think that they should release a news item, why not just let them, if only paludis users will be affected? If we have discussions like this for every news item, we could just drop them at all. Matthias -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 5 May 2007 13:44:54 +0200 Maurice van der Pot [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It looks like it is not clear enough what kind of news should be called critical. It's quite simple. If something is of sufficient interest to users who would be shown the news item that it is worth them seeing a news item then it should be a news item. So, the question is whether people who are using Paludis would benefit from or be inconvenienced by this news item. We have experience with this from similar changes and news items in the Paludis overlay, and from that we know that a news item is helpful in this kind of situation. Ciaran, as I see it the problem is not simply whether this message is important to paludis users or not - I'm not disputing you're better positioned to determine that. The problem is the type and amount of news any single package is willing to provide and the impact that will have for the whole tree. You're arguing this news item will only be shown to paludis users, but you're forgetting that paludis users also use many other packages in the tree. Assume user X has many packages on his system including package A. The maintainer of package A decides to create a news item about an upcoming change that will break package A. If user X on the next update of the tree gets 25 news items, with 15 of them about config file changes, the probability of the user disregarding package A's news item is far greater than if the user only gets 3 or 4 news items, wouldn't you agree? IMHO, that's why it's so important to decide on the type of news items that we should have and that's why maintainers of other packages are so concerned about this news item. The worst that could happen is that because of an abuse of the news framework, users stop caring about the news items - then all work for GLEP 42 would have been for nothing. I'm not stating that this particular news item is an abuse of the news framework or will by itself condemn GLEP 42, I'm just explaining why a careful selection of news items is important and why I care so much about this particular news item. I also think we should only use news item for really *important* issues. There is also another reason to concern about the amount of news items, the impact that will have on rsync traffic. That is a general concern and is not tied to this particular example. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Proctors -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGPLoicAWygvVEyAIRAkivAJ0T941AzRW0z4uvooyfbSm7lI8DdQCglYQx Akx7MAIf882IoQBXjvnblT4= =BcOG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 17:08:50 + Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're arguing this news item will only be shown to paludis users, but you're forgetting that paludis users also use many other packages in the tree. Assume user X has many packages on his system including package A. The maintainer of package A decides to create a news item about an upcoming change that will break package A. If user X on the next update of the tree gets 25 news items, with 15 of them about config file changes, the probability of the user disregarding package A's news item is far greater than if the user only gets 3 or 4 news items, wouldn't you agree? You're looking at it the wrong way. Assume the user gets 25 news items (which is wildly unlikely), 25 of which contain useful information. Then the user is likely to pay attention to all the news items. If, however, only 10 of them contain useful information, they'll likely ignore them all in the future. So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes. No one answered my question asked in Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] what paludis actually does in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item. GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful ones. Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgp6XmuysP0mb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Have there been news items yet, which mentioned changes in config files, which did (as far as i understood it) not break the directly next version which is upgraded too, but just made a bunch of warnings arise that the config file uses the old format which now is deprecated, telling the user to change in in this or that way as the next release maybe wont support this deprecated format any longer? I guess it's not only, that users will stop reading news items, but also the mailing lists, if discussions on topics as worthwhile reading as this one become the defining content of them. Daniel P.S.: BTW - do you use KDE or Gnome, and what do you like better? C or Java? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Wernfried Haas wrote: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes. No one answered my question asked in Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] what paludis actually does in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item. GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful ones. Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP. cheers, Wernfried That's the point. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 19:34:22 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:21:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: So the only important question is whether the news items are useful for the people who will see them. In this case we know the answer is yes. No one answered my question asked in Message-ID: [EMAIL PROTECTED] what paludis actually does in case it encounters a config file using the old syntax so far, but as long it doesn't break the system, it doesn't need a news item. GLEP 42 talks about critical, really important news, not just useful ones. It warns noisily. It doesn't say how to fix it. Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP. Hardly... Not having the news item will cause considerable user confusion. Having the news item won't cause any users to value news items less. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Saturday, May 5, 2007 07:46:47 PM Ciaran McCreesh wrote: It warns noisily. It doesn't say how to fix it. [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [WARNING] In program paludis -ip kdelibs: ... When making environment from specification '': ... When loading paludis configuration: ... When reading licenses file '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf': ... When adding source '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf' as a licenses file: ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead Paludis is better than you make it look. ;-) Best regards, Wulf pgpGpE71HgD8x.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: It warns noisily. Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for a news item. It doesn't say how to fix it. I'm sure that can be arranged even without a news item. Imho the whole GLEP process is being abused to define some scenario to get the support for news, and then push it through for stuff way outside the boundaries defined in the GLEP. Hardly... Not having the news item will cause considerable user confusion. Then you may need to rewrite the GLEP so it allows news items whenever something confuses users, not just the critical updates (e.g. incompatible mysql upgrades or the apache 2 config upgrade were used as examples) described in the GLEP. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpSTcJQhFKcb.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:38 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: It warns noisily. Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for a news item. You don't use Paludis. Paludis users do see the need for a news item. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 08:29:14PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: You don't use Paludis. Irrelevant to the issue at hand. We're discussing the (ab-)use of the news system, not my personal choice of package manager. Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpeQfwH7gh86.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 21:18:38 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 06:46:47PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: It warns noisily. Then it's not even close to being broken and i don't see the need for a news item. You don't use Paludis. Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users; we don't need such stuff abused in gentoo-x86 because paludis users are unable (according to your claims) read explicit runtime deprecation warnings. Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here, may I ask? I guess amne is right here. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't. GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay. Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here, may I ask? I guess amne is right here. I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't. GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here. OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? Lets quote one of the previous mails then: snip [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [WARNING] In program paludis -ip kdelibs: ... When making environment from specification '': ... When loading paludis configuration: ... When reading licenses file '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf': ... When adding source '/etc/paludis/licenses.conf' as a licenses file: ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead /snip You seriously want to claim that paludis users can't read? Again; what exactly are you after here? (And drop the 'experience has shown', 'users want it', 'it's non-trivial' etc. etc. rhetoric please - it doesn't go anywhere nor does it explain anything.) -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't. GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here. OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): On Sat, 5 May 2007 22:00:27 +0200 Wernfried Haas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Paludis users do see the need for a news item. Not the question if paludis users see the need. Not even the question if i see the need. The point is that GLEP 42 doesn't. GLEP 42 is designed to deliver important information to users that need to see it. This is exactly what's being requested here. OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one. Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. If you want to improve user experience in other ways, file another GLEP for that, instead of misusing critical news porting for is. There's nothing critical about your * stuff. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [PROCTORS] [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:27:41PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:19:27 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: OK, is this the 'how stupid this thread can become' contest? No, it's about delivering the best experience we can to end users. If you're wanting to find a thread to stupidify, pick a different one. There may be some small conflict of interest as i actively participated in this thread before, but i think i am still objective enough to say that the direction of the last 2 posts is definitely not the one to take on the gentoo-dev list. So let's stop with the stupid stuff, thanks. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpmlz0cbqP52.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example of that. There's nothing critical about your * stuff. Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an appropriate manner, the users get annoyed. You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering what is best for affected users? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Am Samstag 05 Mai 2007 22:44 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example of that. There's nothing critical about your * stuff. Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an appropriate manner, the users get annoyed. You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering what is best for affected users? A may be his evidence, as I am a user, and do not thing it is worth a news item. It wont block paludis from working and if you change it, so that it does you have caused the problem yourself because config file changes should not be abrupt, but it is good to have a buffer version which sends warnings to the user if he didnt fix his config. I bet there are other users around, who think a config file format change that doesnt break anything but produce warnings in the first place is non-critical. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay. Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here, may I ask? I guess amne is right here. I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users. Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh napsal(a): There's nothing critical about your * stuff. Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an appropriate manner, the users get annoyed. You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering what is best for affected users? I'm not trying to sabotage anything but total misuse of the feature. Would have the same objections wrt whatever other critical news that'd constitute completely inappropriate usage of GLEP42 features. (And I'd expect that you'd show a bit more knowledge of the GLEP you are a co-author of, frankly.) The relevant paludis output has been pasted twice already, so let me try one last time: snip ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead /snip How much more explanation about this 'critical' change do the users *need*? If they don't get the above, maybe paludis and Linux just isn't for them and they should stick to Windows. Meanwhile there's no need to establish a precedent of using critical news for PEBKAC issues. -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:37:37 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Erm, not really? This is about proper usage of GLEP42 stuff. Yes, it is about proper usage of GLEP 42. This news item is one example of that. There's nothing critical about your * stuff. Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an appropriate manner, the users get annoyed. You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering what is best for affected users? By the way on 03.03.2007 15:14 Ciaran McCreesh also wrote: No, it's that you're dead set on derailing it and being as unhelpful as possible. You have absolutely nothing to contribute, as evidenced by every previous time you've gotten involved with anything I've done, and given how badly you tried to screw up GLEP 42 and how much of my time you wasted doing so, I really don't want to deal with your noise ever again. You also have a lot to gain by wrecking the process, and your past behaviour has shown that you'll stoop to any kind of dirty trickery and abuse of the system that you think you can get away with rather than having a proper technical discussion. For your interest, I do not consider it as a proper technical discussion if someone asks for evidence without delivering it himself instead of writing one third of the discussion to make lots of noise about it (again a quoted from Ciaran McCreesh, written by him on 11.02.2007 18:40) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [PROCTORS] [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:54:08PM +0100, George Prowse wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:03:08 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, then frankly feed those news to your overlay users A good number of Paludis users don't use the overlay. Because the above is clearly stupid - what are you really after here, may I ask? I guess amne is right here. I'm after improving the user experience for Gentoo users. Hah! There's an easier way than paludis then, lol Another subthread that should rather go extinct than continue in this direction. Just because people disagree there's no need to make it personal. Thanks, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne (at) gentoo.org http://forums.gentoo.org || http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/proctors/ forum-mods (at) gentoo.org || proctors (at) gentoo.org #gentoo-forums || #gentoo-proctors (freenode) pgpR48156q7WR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 22:56:58 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not trying to sabotage anything but total misuse of the feature. Would have the same objections wrt whatever other critical news that'd constitute completely inappropriate usage of GLEP42 features. (And I'd expect that you'd show a bit more knowledge of the GLEP you are a co-author of, frankly.) Have you stopped to consider that, as author of the GLEP, I know exactly what it was intended to do and how it works? It's a change to a core configuration file requiring explicit user action from every user. It is not merely a notice about a new feature or a behaviour change that only affects a small proportion of users. The former gets a news item, the latter gets an elog. The relevant paludis output has been pasted twice already, so let me try one last time: snip ... Use of token '*' is deprecated, use '*/*' instead /snip How much more explanation about this 'critical' change do the users *need*? If they don't get the above, maybe paludis and Linux just isn't for them and they should stick to Windows. Meanwhile there's no need to establish a precedent of using critical news for PEBKAC issues. Experience has shown that without a news item, many users will ask for clarification or confirmation before making any changes, and with a news item users will be reassured that they're doing the right thing and that this is a deliberate change. Bear in mind that a large proportion of users didn't create those files by hand and haven't edited them themselves. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 09:44:35PM +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: There's nothing critical about your * stuff. Sure there is. If users aren't informed about the change in an appropriate manner, the users get annoyed. There's a lot of subjectivity in this sentence... appropriate... annoyed... but none of it is relevant to whether or not it is critical. Critical is about breakage that causes a lot more work in fixing than it would have in preventing and that the user will not know about until it is too late. You're trying to sabotage this based upon arguments over wording technicalities. Where is your evidence that this is not delivering what is best for affected users? Any evidence of this kind is irrelevant. We're not going to tie GLEP 42 in with paypal to give users money either, which would also be pretty good for users. It's *critical* news reporting, not slashdot. Maurice. -- Maurice van der Pot Gentoo Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org Creator of BiteMe! [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kfk4ever.com pgp16xAN8EOSI.pgp Description: PGP signature
[PROCTORS] Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Piotr Jaroszy?ski wrote: Hello, Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck they are ready to use. And we should use them! Attaching news item for paludis 0.24. Justification: major config format change. I would like to ask everyone discussing glep42 and the type of news items, to redirect any further emails to the new thread Mike Doty (kingtaco) has now started - msgid = [EMAIL PROTECTED] / http://article.gname.org/gname.linux.gentoo.devel/48809 . The discussion on this thread should no focus exclusively on the correctness of the proposed news item. I would also like to ask everyone to continue the discussion in the mailing list in a civil tone. Thanks. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel / Proctors -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGPPzecAWygvVEyAIRAlB2AJ9lCPKNWS9yM1/acPDSYhJsCfcTdQCgk6Yl QOg6v00r/zOlSDVmA/R+bI0= =D2Ha -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [PROCTORS] Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jorge Manuel B. S. Vicetto wrote: Piotr Jaroszy?ski wrote: Hello, Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck they are ready to use. And we should use them! Attaching news item for paludis 0.24. Justification: major config format change. I would like to ask everyone discussing glep42 and the type of news items, to redirect any further emails to the new thread Mike Doty (kingtaco) has now started - msgid = [EMAIL PROTECTED] / http://article.gname.org/gname.linux.gentoo.devel/48809 . The discussion on this thread should no focus exclusively on the correctness of the proposed news item. I would also like to ask everyone to continue the discussion in the mailing list in a civil tone. Thanks. Sorry, the correct gmane link is http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/48809 - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo -forums / Userrel / Proctors -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGPP+AcAWygvVEyAIRApZ2AJ9FQE9DC4jxnWNqlDKYqhSvXsXuhgCfS/+O YTA9xPm3zjZ0fZk4OPjhAIY= =hJFP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
I've tried to divide up the various things being discussed here. Regarding paludis: - The syntax change in question affects =paludis-0.24 - The old syntax is still accepted - A warning message is printed to the console by paludis when the old (deprecated) syntax is detected - The warning message includes basic instructions on how to fix the deprecated syntax. - The user isn't affected by the change in any other way - The syntax can't be fixed automatically Is the above correct? Regarding the GLEP: There's reasonable doubt whether the news item can be classified as critical news, and also whether it satisfies this sentence from the GLEP: News items must only be for important changes that may cause serious upgrade or compatibility problems. However, Ciaran (the primary GLEP author) tells us that the GLEP was written with the mindset to allow these kinds of news items, i.e. some of us are misinterpreting the text. Specifically, the news is useful/beneficial/interesting to all or almost all paludis users so it should be put in place regardless of importance: It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read the news item that a news item is warranted. I can understand that the system may have been dreamed up with this in mind, and this certainly isn't an unreasonable design, but I don't see the corresponding text in the GLEP. Mike already suggested that we set some news standards. I think we should go further: after discussion if we do decide this kind of article is valid news, then we should carefully reword some parts of the GLEP and maybe even rename it. Adding a few examples of valid and invalid items (plus explanations why) would be beneficial as well. Regarding elog: Some people have suggested that elog is a suitable way of providing the syntax change information here. The main argument against this is that the Portage implementation isn't good enough (or perhaps isn't good enough by default, or perhaps isn't good enough in the released versions). If we can agree that the concept of elog satisfies the requirements here, then we should be focusing on fixing that rather than arguing about a different news system which isn't even implemented in the latest released version of Portage, right? Portage's news implementation might even be worse than the elog implementation... Regarding the committed news item: I spoke to Alec on IRC. Even after doing so, I don't really understand why he committed this, but it sounds like he wanted to stir things up. He doesn't acknowledge that he had any particular power to make the decision in this situation. He is surprised that nobody approached him before complaining to the council (not that any complaints have been filed in any official sense to my knowledge). He was already aware that he violated the GLEP, which requires at least 72 hours before the news item gets committed. I think someone should revert this commit until discussion has settled and the GLEP wording has been refined. Corrections appreciated. Daniel -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Hello, Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck they are ready to use. And we should use them! Attaching news item for paludis 0.24. Justification: major config format change. -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński Title: Changes for Paludis 0.24 Author: Piotr Jaroszyński [EMAIL PROTECTED] Content-Type: text/plain Posted: 2007-03-25 Revision: 1 News-Item-Format: 1.0 Display-If-Installed: =sys-apps/paludis-0.24 As of Paludis 0.24, the use of '*' to match all packages in the Paludis configuration files 'use.conf', 'keywords.conf' and 'licenses.conf' is deprecated in favour of '*/*'. You should update your configuration files after upgrading.
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Hi, Piotr Jaroszyński wrote: Hello, (...) Display-If-Installed: =sys-apps/paludis-0.24 You mean Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/paludis-0.24, right? Regards, Thomas -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Friday 04 of May 2007 23:46:39 Thomas Rösner wrote: You mean Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/paludis-0.24, right? No, I want it displayed only after installation of the new version. -- Best Regards, Piotr Jaroszyński -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Piotr Jaroszyński wrote: On Friday 04 of May 2007 23:46:39 Thomas Rösner wrote: You mean Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/paludis-0.24, right? No, I want it displayed only after installation of the new version. Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also You should update your configuration files after upgrading. sounds like something one would read before upgrade... - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGO6/3tbrAj05h3oQRArMcAKCTQIriSODoHFBCI+imBO0RJ/nqKACdEWH/ NOvynKL3uoRP9GXWXwLz0Yc= =Bxw0 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote: Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also You should update your configuration files after upgrading. sounds like something one would read before upgrade... It'll only affect users after they upgrade. -- Alexander Færøy Bugday Lead Alpha/IA64/MIPS Architecture Teams User Relations, Quality Assurance and Release Engineering pgpy0WAahsDWW.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Alexander Færøy kirjoitti: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote: Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also You should update your configuration files after upgrading. sounds like something one would read before upgrade... It'll only affect users after they upgrade. So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the news item too, wouldn't it?. Wouldn't the proper behavior be to mark the item as not applicable when it is first encountered? Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Petteri Räty kirjoitti: Alexander Færøy kirjoitti: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote: Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also You should update your configuration files after upgrading. sounds like something one would read before upgrade... It'll only affect users after they upgrade. So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the news item too, wouldn't it?. Wouldn't the proper behavior be to mark the item as not applicable when it is first encountered? Regards, Petteri Ah found it in the GLEP: The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant, marks the news item for reading. The package manager should also display a notice informing the user that there are unread news items. This means that adding a =message is useless as it gets filtered away at the first sync. Use elog instead. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:30:05 +0300 Petteri Räty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the news item too, wouldn't it?. Yep. This situation was discussed when designing GLEP 42. There isn't a better alternative because there's no reliable record of packages that used to be installed. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:34:37 +0300 Petteri Räty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah found it in the GLEP: The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant, marks the news item for reading. The package manager should also display a notice informing the user that there are unread news items. This means that adding a =message is useless as it gets filtered away at the first sync. Use elog instead. Re-read the GLEP. You're completely misunderstanding the process. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
Ciaran McCreesh kirjoitti: On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:34:37 +0300 Petteri Räty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah found it in the GLEP: The package manager filters the news item and, if it is relevant, marks the news item for reading. The package manager should also display a notice informing the user that there are unread news items. This means that adding a =message is useless as it gets filtered away at the first sync. Use elog instead. Re-read the GLEP. You're completely misunderstanding the process. Do you refer to this? Checks for new news messages should be displayed: * After an emerge sync * After an emerge --pretend * Before an emerge target (which may also include a red warning message) How can there be new messages with emerge --pretend if emerge --sync is the only way to get them? Should be saying unread messages and it would be clear to me. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Friday 04 May 2007 4:49:47 pm Piotr Jaroszyński wrote: Hello, Thanks to zmedico we now have support for news items on infra-side and heck they are ready to use. And we should use them! Attaching news item for paludis 0.24. Justification: major config format change. How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP? Preemptive Users should be told of changes before they break a system, not after the damage has already been done. Ideally, the system administrator would be given ample warning to plan difficult upgrades and changes, rather than only being told just before action is necessary. A more reliable way of getting news of critical updates Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow elog to be used? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:30:05 +0300 Petteri Räty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So let's say this was a message about package foobar. If it only affects users after they upgrade it would mean that new installs would get the news item too, wouldn't it?. Yep. This situation was discussed when designing GLEP 42. There isn't a better alternative because there's no reliable record of packages that used to be installed. Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/paludis-0.24 Pretty reliable for this case which affects only users upgrading from previous versions to =0.24. How likely is that someone has had such version previously, then uninstalled paludis completely leaving config files around, and now installs =0.24? So likely it's worth that future fresh installs of say 0.50 will display this news too? - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGO7oitbrAj05h3oQRAtshAKCCJeVQ2ksDuIvX8eLGjZsxAlDxFACeNea1 Iep1M7QGhWnSfHP4drZg3rw= =nabr -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Fri, 4 May 2007 18:50:00 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP? Preemptive Preemptiveness is not a requirement for this particular news item. It's necessary in many places but not this one. Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow elog to be used? Experience with other repositories has shown that if it's in elog, many people won't see or read it, whereas if it's in a news item they will. Placing it in a news item will significantly reduce the upstream support load. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 00:56:35 +0200 Vlastimil Babka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Display-If-Installed: sys-apps/paludis-0.24 Will encourage users who don't have 0.24 installed to make the change, which will break. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Alexander Færøy wrote: On Sat, May 05, 2007 at 12:13:12AM +0200, Vlastimil Babka wrote: Isn't such use case just a replacement for elog? I thought news were supposed to be delivered before upgrading. Also You should update your configuration files after upgrading. sounds like something one would read before upgrade... It'll only affect users after they upgrade. Right which... seems to me something I would want to know *BEFORE* I upgraded... otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGO7Xz1c+EtXTHkJcRAgPkAKCHU2QU+nFr3l+4kteNWD4mcVQ7swCfUy76 kEoMuymvLn9+kMtI7jUxnUo= =1JPW -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Fri, 04 May 2007 17:38:43 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Right which... seems to me something I would want to know *BEFORE* I upgraded... No no, if you find out before you upgrade you preemptively change your config files and the old version breaks. If you find out after you upgrade you know why you're getting a load of warnings about '*' being deprecated. otherwise, yeah, elog does the same thing already... Experience has shown that news items work in delivering this kind of information to users whereas elog doesn't. elog is a one-shot thing that may or may not (usually the latter) actually get seen, whereas a news item stays around until the user reads it. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Sat, 05 May 2007 01:47:07 +0300 Petteri Räty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can there be new messages with emerge --pretend if emerge --sync is the only way to get them? Should be saying unread messages and it would be clear to me. A new message is one that hasn't been read. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Friday 04 May 2007 6:58:44 pm Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 4 May 2007 18:50:00 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does this fit the following parts of the GLEP? Preemptive Preemptiveness is not a requirement for this particular news item. It's necessary in many places but not this one. Additionally, what about this is so critical that it will not allow elog to be used? Experience with other repositories has shown that if it's in elog, many people won't see or read it, whereas if it's in a news item they will. Placing it in a news item will significantly reduce the upstream support load. That seems like a really bad road to go down. Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of an install as well? When I think of news I think of things that are required to do or my system will break. That is what I want out of news. I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination. The program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users will then know. Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any major headache. It sure isn't something that will break a users system utterly if its not acted upon. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That seems like a really bad road to go down. Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of an install as well? Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read. elog is not an adequate solution. When I think of news I think of things that are required to do or my system will break. That is what I want out of news. I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination. The program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users will then know. Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any major headache. It sure isn't something that will break a users system utterly if its not acted upon. It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read the news item that a news item is warranted. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Friday 04 May 2007 8:01:58 pm Dan Meltzer wrote: On Friday 04 May 2007 7:52:46 pm Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Fri, 4 May 2007 19:48:19 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That seems like a really bad road to go down. Would it not be better to extend elog to alert people at the end of an install as well? Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read. elog is not an adequate solution. Emm, That would depend upon the viewer I'd think. elogs are saved in a directory, and so the only way they would disappear is if the user chose to delete them (or the viewer did it for them). Ooops, I guess they are only saved if it's explicity enabled, there goes that idea :/ When I think of news I think of things that are required to do or my system will break. That is what I want out of news. I can't see how deprecated syntax fits that defination. The program should warn when it finds deprecated syntax, and the users will then know. Or if the users ignore it, then when the support is removed and the package errors, the user fixes it then without any major headache. It sure isn't something that will break a users system utterly if its not acted upon. It's something that is of sufficient interest to those who will read the news item that a news item is warranted. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [news-item] Paludis 0.24
On Fri, 4 May 2007 20:01:58 -0400 Dan Meltzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doesn't help. It's only there once, and it's easy to ignore. Users don't have to explicitly mark it as read, so it's frequently not read. elog is not an adequate solution. Emm, That would depend upon the viewer I'd think. Which is kind of the point... -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
