Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Roy Marples wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 23:11 +0100, George Prowse wrote: Mike Doty wrote: [snip] get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate. I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project, are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion? The ones that are actually interested in this will. I don't want to start a long discussion here, and if you reply to this please do so on -project. I would post this there only but I think I'll miss my target audience - which is devs who aren't interested in - -project material and want -dev to be a technical list. If you are a dev who wants to see only technical commentary on this list please do yourself a favor and DON'T reply on this list to non-technical issues. If somebody feels like they get 2 replies on -project and 50 replies on -dev (even if it is just telling them to buzz off) they're going to post on -dev as the perceived impact is higher. Just ignore stuff like this on -dev, and post replies on -project. And for those among you who aren't devs and would like to be able to participate on -dev in realtime without moderation, participating in these sorts of discussions on -dev isn't the way to accomplish your goals. Let's give -project a chance, shall we... And again, I apologize for cross-posting this on dev. Please feel free to tell me to buzz off, but for everybody else's sake do so by private email... :) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGoL11G4/rWKZmVWkRAlOvAJ4kG3bZdIiRZaYH8xdECcTpDfcSzwCZARS1 2bwGlp9/RNP/Ar0G8Sb5JWU= =6rOM -END PGP SIGNATURE- smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
George Prowse schrieb: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or alike. Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all channels this still is far from beeing representative. A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to. Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Thomas Scharl wrote: George Prowse schrieb: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No In best case you get answers from a larger part of that part of the user community that a) actively follow those information channels, b) want to contribute answers and probably c) have enough technical skill to express what they want to say in a useful way (not like 'bla doesn't work, fix that') and some will stay silent because they are to shy or alike. Even if you manage to get approx 10-20% of valid answer rate over all channels this still is far from beeing representative. A relevant part of the user base is surely completely 'invisible'- no matter which channels we use to publicate infos/polls/etc to. Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. a) The people who don't actively follow the communication channels wouldn't know what was going on so they would never notice! Du... b) If people don't want to contribute in them then it is up to them. People can't complain if they are given the option. c) You don't need lots of technical skills to help. To be honest, that is immaterial anyway, there is a huge wealth of knowlege in the forums community (that is unused by Gentoo) and there are always people who would explain something in plain language. George -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:54 +0200, Thomas Scharl wrote: Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. One thing that I had been considering bringing up and getting help with is some scripts/whatever to get users to do things they might not know they can do during installation. For example, let's say we've got a little script, called sub_to_gwn, which takes a single argument, an email address. At the end of the Installer, we can ask Would you like to subscribe to the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter? and subscribe people that say yes. We could do the same thing for a stats client, or any other projects that we deemed would be useful. The idea here is to present some of these things that we would like the users to be doing to provide us feedback (and disseminate information) to the user when they're installing. Of course, we'd also add the scripts into the documentation, so people can simply run them w/o the Installer, so we're not tying this stuff to Installer-only installs. Anyway, some things I think we could/should do are: - GWN - gentoo-announce - gentoo-stats (or whatever we have now, if anything) Anything else? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Friday, 20. July 2007 23:48, Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:54 +0200, Thomas Scharl wrote: Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. One thing that I had been considering bringing up and getting help with is some scripts/whatever to get users to do things they might not know they can do during installation. For example, let's say we've got a little script, called sub_to_gwn, which takes a single argument, an email address. At the end of the Installer, we can ask Would you like to subscribe to the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter? and subscribe people that say yes. We could do the same thing for a stats client, or any other projects that we deemed would be useful. The idea here is to present some of these things that we would like the users to be doing to provide us feedback (and disseminate information) to the user when they're installing. Of course, we'd also add the scripts into the documentation, so people can simply run them w/o the Installer, so we're not tying this stuff to Installer-only installs. Anyway, some things I think we could/should do are: - GWN - gentoo-announce - gentoo-stats (or whatever we have now, if anything) Anything else? I don't know whether that is what you mean by gentoo-stats, but other distros have quite some interesting usage statistics by having their users submit hardware profiles to a server. I like the idea and wanted to have a look at Smolt [1]. The Fedora people would be interested in providing the client for Gentoo and would extend the web interface to enable better filtering of distros, too. But right now that's just some random ideas until after my exams next weeks :-) Robert [1] https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/projects/smolt/ , http://smolt.fedoraproject.org/stats -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Chris Gianelloni schrieb: On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 18:54 +0200, Thomas Scharl wrote: Anyways this is more of philosophical/social issue to discuss about than a technical one. One thing that I had been considering bringing up and getting help with is some scripts/whatever to get users to do things they might not know they can do during installation. For example, let's say we've got a little script, called sub_to_gwn, which takes a single argument, an email address. At the end of the Installer, we can ask Would you like to subscribe to the Gentoo Weekly Newsletter? and subscribe people that say yes. We could do the same thing for a stats client, or any other projects that we deemed would be useful. The idea here is to present some of these things that we would like the users to be doing to provide us feedback (and disseminate information) to the user when they're installing. Of course, we'd also add the scripts into the documentation, so people can simply run them w/o the Installer, so we're not tying this stuff to Installer-only installs. Anyway, some things I think we could/should do are: - GWN - gentoo-announce - gentoo-stats (or whatever we have now, if anything) Anything else? quite cool idea, some more optionals could be - subscribe to -user/lang ML's - install a bookmarks file in ~/ with all relevant Gentoo links - create accounts for b.g.o/f.g.o -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Steve Long wrote: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go and annoy upstream. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Most packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can put common problems in its topic. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. It would also make it easier for users to start helping developers and eventually become developers themselves, since they won't need to search for a point of entry anymore. I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each herd/ package. Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is busier than #gentoo-kde. The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions about changing ebuilds, imo. If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them! -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them! Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:36:34 +0100 Steve Long [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: Perhaps we also need to make it more clear where users can ask such Gentoo-specific questions about specific packages, so they don't need to go and annoy upstream. In #gentoo we *regularly* send users upstream. We tend *not* to refer them to #upstream when it's a matter of installation, which would always be Gentoo's turf and therefore our responsibility. We only suggest users seek help upstream when they are grappling with runtime configuration issues or issues that are too complex to handle in a busy channel. Associate an irc-channel with each package. Associate how? Sounds like a lot of work at the least and a lot of cruft at the worst. Most packages have a herd associated with them which can belong to a project which could have an irc-channel where the relevant developers could be found and which can put common problems in its topic. That is the way things are now. Formalising this seems redundant. Fallback for when no appropriate irc-channel can be found would be #gentoo. #gentoo is and always has been the fallback. :) Currently it is usually difficult to find such irc-channels or to know if there is none and that your only option is #gentoo or #$upstream. No problem. Just come and help out in #gentoo. Lots of users giving lots of other users helpful suggestions as to how and where they can get their problems solved. We don't need metastructures, just people talking to each other. I think it's a great idea to have an irc-channel associated with each herd/ package. At least from the IRC side, it just doesn't work that way. You can open channels all you like and find that nobody ever goes there, and instead everybody turns up in the same channel. :) What most people do is drop a question in #gentoo. If an issue might take too much time to resolve in #gentoo, we suggest other channels to ask in, mainly those mentioned in [1]. Certainly it took me a while to find #gentoo-desktop which is busier than #gentoo-kde. You could have asked in #gentoo. :) The fallback should be #gentoo-dev-help however, wrt to questions about changing ebuilds, imo. The current fallback is #gentoo and I cannot see how you could ever change that. You cannot force people to (not) use certain channels and you cannot force them to use/follow whatever link it is you are putting in place. The solution to the problem of upstream only wanting to talk about compile time configuration issues with people who know sufficiently well what they are doing, i.e. developers, is not a technical one, but a social one. If you want to help solve this problem, just talk to people, help out in #gentoo, and educate both users and upstream about the way Gentoo (Linux) and Portage work, and more generally, how to find the information you need without pissing everybody off. :) Kind regards, JeR [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/irc.xml -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 21:02:46 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you want to know how to get a better relationship with users... ask them! Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. that is why the pronoun them is a plural... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thursday, 19. July 2007 22:39, Jeroen Roovers wrote: Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: Associate an irc-channel with each package. Associate how? Sounds like a lot of work at the least and a lot of cruft at the worst. It could be included in the herds.xml: herd namekde/name email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/email descriptionKDE and related packages/description ircirc://irc.freenode.net/#gentoo-kde/irc ircirc://irc.freenode.net/#gentoo-desktop/irc maintainer email[EMAIL PROTECTED]/email /maintainer ... /herd This way, it would not cruft any packages. Still for packages where a certain group of people maintain, it would show where to find them and other users. Where could it be displayed to users? I mean, herdstat of course, but somehow the info would have to reach Joe User, too. -R. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 21:59 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Fair point, but the more better-informed users we have, the better it is for everyone in general. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? We can do 4 out of 6, haven't you seen the commit logs? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is the reason why it shouldn't be done as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their system breaks and they try to find out why. I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is the reason why it shouldn't be done No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design decisions is why it shouldn't be done. as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of impossible goals. It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told sorry, we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 snip everything not technical, take it to -project. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGn9rz1c+EtXTHkJcRAqEiAJ91+dcEu2/q6F1K/QTkqaHgWJUl0QCeMh6u 3PfRN7OZ8rNFwiXEr//dg7I= =vuLo -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
George Prowse wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 15:45:46 -0500 Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Any user who will see and respond to a question is unrepresentative of the user base in general. So if ten users reply then, are all ten individually wrong too? Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. That is why I asked for a link to be placed here in the mailing list. I don't go to the forums very often, unless I have a problem and am trying to find a fix before asking on Gentoo user. If you or someone placed a link here then more people would be represented. There will never be a poll that all Gentoo users will vote in and for those that don't vote, they just have to deal with the leaders that others pick. That is the price for not voting for someone else. SNIP as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion I agree but it is a good suggestion. I am recently single. ;-) Can I file a bug for a new lady friend? It can't be any worse than the liar I just got rid of. It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? Actually, sometimes the minority is sometimes right. I have seen posts from you, Ciaran, that I completely agree with even when everybody else, or most everybody else, thinks you are wrong. A lot of the time I see your point but really don't have the knowledge of the subject to agree or disagree publicly. So, sometimes it's not the number that matters. I think it is having a LARGE number of people participating that matters and a good group of people to weigh all the options and find the best solution. Look at how the proctors thing turned out. How many people, I seem to recall you being against it too Ciaran, were against that and it turned out they were right. Proctors are gone, the COC is somewhere and they are trying to find a better answer. Now the new deal is meeting the same resistance just like the proctors and I suspect it will fail too. Gentoo needs to listen to the people. Some people need to grow thicker skin and not take offense so easily and some need to know when not to say anything and just let a subject drop. Something needs to improve and since I am not in the loop, I really have no idea what that change needs to be. I just know that taking the users out of it is not the way to go. It makes Mandrake look like a better option then and I'm sure a lot of others will find their solution elsewhere. My $0.02 worth. Dale :-) :-) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:22:19 +0100 George Prowse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not my point. My point is that most Gentoo users would either not see the question or not respond. Those that both see the question and take time to respond are highly atypical. If you were clever enough and wanted the largest amount of answers you would put the questions around ever communication channel gentoo has, you would then get the opinions of the majority of users. No, you'd still be way off. You'd still only get the opinions of users who actively monitor Gentoo communication channels. It's well established from the fallout of previous changes that no matter how widely something is communicated, most people won't see it until their system breaks and they try to find out why. So you think nothing should be done because some people don't interact in the Gentoo communication channels? I wish ALL users would vote in a poll on the forums That wouldn't tell you what all users want though. It would tell you what forum users who take the time to respond to a poll want. Again, not a representative sample. And that's the issue at hand -- Gentoo has an extremely hard time delivering information to most users. Getting information back is even trickier. The set of people who respond is heavily skewed towards better-informed users who have time to seek out and participate in that kind of questioning. Ah, now I see! The fact that we would get answers from some users is the reason why it shouldn't be done No no. The fact that some people would use those answers to make design decisions is why it shouldn't be done. So those people that would reply would make wrong suggestions/answers/whatever.. Thats a pretty bold comment when one of the main Off The Wall posters codes rocket propulsion software for the British Government. as to what we the users want and what direction we want Gentoo to go in. I want guaranteed total stability, instantly available updates, guaranteed backwards compatibility, the ability to install any package from source using my configuration of choice in under fifteen seconds and a herd of nubile bisexual redheads. Can Gentoo deliver that? Irrelevant conclusion Not at all. What users *want* is something that can't be done. Most users don't have the technical knowledge to realise that what they want is impossible. Asking users will thus merely get a long list of impossible goals. People at Gentoo tend to know what they would like, if they suggest something that is unobtainable and are given reasons why, 2 things would happen: 1. They would have a greater respect for the developers for actually trying. 2. They would have knowlege to be able to suggest an alternative. It's no different than elections here in the US, people gripe but most of the gripers don't vote. Do you really think it would make any difference if they did? All it would do is lend credibility to the process, and provide people with the argument well you voted so you agree to accept the decision of the majority. It would make a difference in the relations between users and developers. Yes, lots of users would be extremely annoyed when they're told sorry, we're not going to deliver all those things you asked for. Being a user yourself, why are you so against yourself having a say? I have a say, as does anyone else who feels like contributing. Were things moved to a poll, no-one would have a say at all. That doesn't stop you having your say by contributing... -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
[snip] get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Mike Doty wrote: [snip] get this shit off the dev list and somewhere more appropriate. I have a question for in here. Now this is (rightly) going to -project, are any devs actually going to comment on the discussion? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:51 -0500, Dale wrote: Now the new deal is meeting the same resistance just like the proctors and I suspect it will fail too. Gentoo needs to listen to the people. No. Gentoo needs to make intelligent decisions, whether it comes from a single individual or an army doesn't matter. A good idea is a good idea. The main thing that we need to do is keep admitting when we're wrong. If we're wrong, admit it and fix it. It really is that simple. Nobody expects us to be perfect, but we should still strive for it. At the same time, I think sometimes taking action, even the wrong one, is better than sitting around postulating endlessly. I would much rather see something done, found to be wrong, reverted, and replaced over time than nothing be done at all because nobody can agree 100% on the right way to do it. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[gentoo-dev] Re: Improving developer/user communication (was Re: net-im/pidgin protocols)
Eric Polino wrote: Not sure if this fits in to what you're talking about, but I do know that as myself a would like to me maintainer someday, I'm somewhat lost as to knowing how I can get involved and who I need to talk to. Your best starting point is #gentoo-dev-help (if you need to talk a problem out with someone) and bugzilla (in terms of getting involved and being useful; just start fixing bugs for stuff you use.) If you know the herd, a quick !herd name in #gentoo-dev-help (irc.freenode.org) will ping anyone in the herd who is available to help out (which is why they've logged into the channel, one would hope.) Even if they're not there, anyone who can help will answer. Do please take the time to read all the docs in the /topic. #gentoo-sunrise is good for when you start submitting ebuilds. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
